Harry Potter Re-working the world of Harry Potter

#1
So I was thinking about the world of Harry Potter and I can't imagine what sort of history would produce it. I mean prior to the Law of Moses magic was universaly accepted as real potent and not morally wrong. What's more is that even in societies that accepted the Law as the words of God it was still common place to have magic practiced they just called it other things or ignored that it was in conflict with scripture. On top of that is also the fact that there is a strong argument to be made that most of what the wizards in Harry Potter practice not being forbiden by the Law.

So why would the magical people hide? They should instead be floating to the top of every society they live in. I mean even if they can only cast the levitation charm that still means that they can easily move loads they wouldn't normally be able to move, hugely multipling the amount of work that they can accomplish in a day. In an agrian society this should enable them to more easily establish themselves and better enable them to endure the various hardships. It would also increase the profitability of their labour and land. They could achieve the same result as their muggle nieghbor with out needing to house and feed the beast of burden that their non-magic requires to work their land.

This causes me to wonder. What should Hary's world look like keeping these things in mind?
 

Tentrees

Well-Known Member
#2
What would it look like? A lot more complex then it is now.

That and I think that wew are missing a few things from the over all picture to make any guess based on canon that was close to reality.

In England I would thihnk the big cleft pooint would bwe the English Civil War (1651-1692) as several conflicting paths of thought came together. The magic users being tired of the fighting or any number of reasons decided to take their ball and go home as it were.

The plot holes in this are far to many to be inumerated here.

The only thing I can extrapolate from Canon is that the English magical families of power (rich/landowners/scholaars) decided that they needed to get out of the mundane perpensaty to slaughter and maim on grand scale and decided to hide what they had away. This mearly focused the magical world on itself not created the peaceful utopia they wanted as humans being humans still tried to fight out for power/money etc. Just that the magicals do it behind wards and away from the rest of humanity.

A world of dreamers and peacenics that lacks the checks and balances of the rule of law and falls prey to the blood thirsty nehilists (various dark lords, Dumbledore, Riddle, etc) who want their dream of power/wealth and indolunce over the rest.
 
#3
Dumbledore is a blood thirsty nehilist? The magic world has been hiding much longer than that and they have been doing it all over the world not just in england. Further more my whole point is that from the get go the magic peoples should just be another group or class [/B]with in society, not a seperate society that lives closely with the nonmagic society.
 

af_zer0

Active Member
#4
I would imagine that the last two-thousand or so years of magical history would probably shake out to some thing like:

For the majority of their history mages would have been either a part of the various religious orders, performing small feats of religious 'miracles' and ritual/runic magics, or they would have been wholly ignorant of their own magic, only finding out about it in the performance of super-human feats in battle. I could probably imagine the Roman Empire being the first place where magic using wands began to be practiced and systematized for the religious elites of society, and with the eventual fall of the Western part of the Empire, the mages would likely have separated themselves from the degradation of muggle society into barbarism. This would, of course, leave a lot of muggleborn mages high and dry, causing them to either enter religious orders or end up dead over the next dozen centuries or so.

Personally, I've always imagined that Merlin was likely a genius spell inventor with a personal quest to reunite the magical and muggle worlds, ala the Roman Empire, with King Aurthur; and likely the one who taught the four founders of Hogwarts, given their own penchant for trying to incorporate the two worlds, albeit on a smaller and less political scale. However good their intentions were in trying to reunite the worlds, the vast majority of mages would have been content to ignore those people who didn't grow up in the magic-only society, with only a few radicals trying to carry on the work of Merlin and the founders in the following centuries. Thus, there would have been very few muggleborns wandering about society, and would have likely been regarded as something of a freak show for disgusted-yet-intrigued purebloods.

What would shake-up the status quo and cause the mages to, however grudgingly, open their society up to muggleborns, would likely be two pretty big things. The first would be the role that muggleborn mages of the Catholic and Protestant Churches would have played in the conquest and subjugation of other mages as the European empires expanded around the world from about 1500 onwards. However, this alone would probably not be enough for the lazy mages to so fundamentally change their society into taking a more open stance. Thus the second reason would have to come from a realization of the dangers inherent in leaving muggleborn mages in the hands of muggles, and I believe that the French Revolution would provide just such an example. Napoleon, employing vast numbers of devoted muggleborns to find and bring the continental magical enclaves to heel, would pretty much force European mages to come to an international accord that would prevent any man from ever using mages in such a fashion again. You could even imagine that they would have him painted as the first and only muggle dark lord.

At any rate, the international accord on the integration of muggleborns into mage society, and then said society being kept a secret from the muggles, would likely keep the European mages quite busy for the next century: training up muggleborns and sending them out as cannon fodder to bring what's left of the world's magical societies under the purview of the Statute of Secrecy. This would probably create a situation where the the purebloods of Europe could justify the muggleborn presence, so long as they weren't mucking about in Europe - and with few job opportunities for the muggleborns except as colonial administrators and soldiers, they wouldn't have stuck around enough to really register as a threat to the purebloods, but rather as a convenient tool to prevent another 'Napoleon' from rising.

However, big changes would come in the 20th century with the increasing prevalence of muggleborns remaining in Europe as the foreign positions came to be filled more by the foreigners themselves, not to mention the explosion in population worldwide causing an equal increase in the birth of muggleborns. The loss of the escape valve that the colonies presented for muggleborns, would have served to radicalize scores of pureblood mages, who would view their traditional society as coming under siege by an ever-increasing number of these 'outsiders'. Grindewald and Voldemort could both be considered symptoms of this problem, but the fact that they mainly employed purebloods to serve as their footsoldiers would have caused the smaller-in-number purebloods to suffer much greater losses in comparison to the ever-increasing muggleborn population; which would again explain why Voldemorts followers were fewer, and could be considered much more radicalized than Grindewald's group.

By the twenty-first century, magical enclaves world-wide would probably look something like this:

The former magical colonies, while completely accepting of muggleborns, are more likely to fall to the much stronger nationalist political tendencies that their recent colonial past would stir up - especially when you consider mages' greater longevity. This would put strain on the Statute of Secrecy, as the nationalists would be much more likely to come to the defense of their muggle counterparts if war were to break out. European pureblood society, which would have traditionally tried to strongly put a check on any attempts to break the Statute, would have lost those people most interested in doing so. By the end of the century, and likely before the middle, some war somewhere would provide enough motivation to the nationalists to break the Statute entirely, leading to the eventual political takeover of magical governments worldwide by the muggle ones (though time-lines and methods would vary), a renewed arms race with mages being given a lot of incentives to join their country's armies, and the worldwide situation degenerating into generalized civil strife while governments try to use mages as a panacea to their fiscal and societal problems.

From there, who can say where society would end up? I suppose it would be up to the author.

Of course, these are just my own thoughts on a completely fictional history, and I'm only a History grad student, what do I know? ;)
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#5
The Harry Potter Lexicon has <a href='http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timeline.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>some timeline pages</a>, according to which, the Statute of Secrecy went into effect in 1692.
 

af_zer0

Active Member
#6
From wikipedia in 1692: "March 1 û The Salem witch trials begin in Salem Village, Massachusetts Bay Colony, with the charging of 3 women with witchcraft."

Probably chosen for this, not any logical reason. I like my ideas better :D
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#7
The ideas aren't that bad, but the entire premise is. You can't argue that they aren't historically accurate, because the fact that the world was that way is a secret. Of course things don't line up. That's kind of the entire point. The underlying complaint is illogical and nonsensical. And the general premise of the HPverse works just fine, because up until a certain point in human history, it was generally accepted that magic was real and you might bump into dragons or trolls or possibly Satan if you went wandering around after dark.

As for why wizards aren't ruling the world, it's because they are canonically lazy. That's the same reason for the statue of secrecy. Or at least, the reason it's still in place, at any rate. The wizards are still hiding because, and I quote, "if normal folks knew that magic and all was real, they'd come to us with all their problems."

The statue may have started because the wizards were concerned for the safety of everyone involved, but it's maintained in modern times because they're lazy dicks who don't really care much about solving the problems of the world because of what a huge hassle it would be. Started due to massive violence; perpetuated due to not wanting to be bothered with annoying things like curing cancer and solving world hunger.
 

Kai-

Well-Known Member
#8
Lord Raine said:
The ideas aren't that bad, but the entire premise is. You can't argue that they aren't historically accurate, because the fact that the world was that way is a secret. Of course things don't line up. That's kind of the entire point. The underlying complaint is illogical and nonsensical. And the general premise of the HPverse works just fine, because up until a certain point in human history, it was generally accepted that magic was real and you might bump into dragons or trolls or possibly Satan if you went wandering around after dark.

As for why wizards aren't ruling the world, it's because they are canonically lazy. That's the same reason for the statue of secrecy. Or at least, the reason it's still in place, at any rate. The wizards are still hiding because, and I quote, "if normal folks knew that magic and all was real, they'd come to us with all their problems."

The statue may have started because the wizards were concerned for the safety of everyone involved, but it's maintained in modern times because they're lazy dicks who don't really care much about solving the problems of the world because of what a huge hassle it would be. Started due to massive violence; perpetuated due to not wanting to be bothered with annoying things like curing cancer and solving world hunger.
Hagrid says that(or something similar to that) in PS, but he's hardly a reliable source on wizard-y things.

Who else makes a comment like that?
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#9
Until someone says something else to disagree with Hagrid which they never did, its word of god. Besides Hagrid has also been in the wizarding world his entire life and at 50+ years old. He should know why.
 

bissek

Well-Known Member
#10
The law of Moses didn't originally state to kill witches. It only got that way after being translated from Hebrew to Latin and from there to the various common languages of Europre. Similarly, the Ten Commandments didn't prohibit killing, just murder. Translation error occurred.

Things that might impact mage/mundane relationships:

A wizard made cure would be cheaper and more likely to work than mundane medicine for most of the dark and middle ages. Also, if your healer was also the priest, it could be provided by someone who didn't care if your tithes had been paid.

Witch trials: Despite common belief, it was actually Protestants, not Catholics, who were big on witch burning, and the Salem Witch Trials were pretty much the last major incident of that type (And they hung their witches).

Firearms: What made early guns dangerous wasn't the fact that they fired bullets, but the fact that they could be made quickly and cheaply, and be issued to conscripts who could be trained to basic competence in a few weeks. A bow might have had better range and rate of fire, but training a professional bowman takes a decade. Large amounts of ranged weapons would change the mundane/mage balance of power considerably.

The spreading of Christianity: If most mages covered their actions through religion, wholesale eradication of pagan churches would destroy a lot of magical knowledge.
 

Garahs

Well-Known Member
#11
Lord Raine said:
As for why wizards aren't ruling the world, it's because they are canonically lazy. That's the same reason for the statue of secrecy. Or at least, the reason it's still in place, at any rate. The wizards are still hiding because, and I quote, "if normal folks knew that magic and all was real, they'd come to us with all their problems."

The statue may have started because the wizards were concerned for the safety of everyone involved, but it's maintained in modern times because they're lazy dicks who don't really care much about solving the problems of the world because of what a huge hassle it would be. Started due to massive violence; perpetuated due to not wanting to be bothered with annoying things like curing cancer and solving world hunger.
I think it's more likely that it's along the lines of 'If you give a mouse a cookie' than just laziness.
 
#12
I'm not asking why they are hidden. I have already concluded that there is no reason for them to be hidden and am wondering how society would work if they weren't hidden.

Also I reject all this, "wizards are lazy, stupid, and crazy." stuff. It may be true enough in the canon world but I'm saying out right that the canon society doesn't make sense given their capabilities and trying to sort out a more reasonable one.
 

Oni_kawaii

Well-Known Member
#13
divad said:
I'm not asking why they are hidden. I have already concluded that there is no reason for them to be hidden and am wondering how society would work if they weren't hidden.

Also I reject all this, "wizards are lazy, stupid, and crazy." stuff. It may be true enough in the canon world but I'm saying out right that the canon society doesn't make sense given their capabilities and trying to sort out a more reasonable one.
maybe a darklord actually won and managed to shape the wizarding world into something they could control.

said darklord is long dead but most of the spells and devices that allowed them control are still around and doing their job.

a bit of an asspull but all I got for the moment
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#14
The law of Moses didn't originally state to kill witches.
Of course it didn't. Witches didn't exist at the time of the creation of the laws of Moses.

I'm not asking why they are hidden. I have already concluded that there is no reason for them to be hidden and am wondering how society would work if they weren't hidden.
There is a reason they are hidden. The wizards are lazy, and don't want to be bothered by 'normal folk.' Not a good reason =/= no reason at all.

Also I reject all this, "wizards are lazy, stupid, and crazy." stuff.
Why? It's canon.
 

Jorlem

Well-Known Member
#15
To the best of my knowledge, what you are referring to as the Law of Moses was originally aimed at those who practiced literal necromancy, that is, contacting the spirits of the dead for information. King Saul, at one point in Samuel I, went and found a woman who secretly used (or pretended to use) necromancy, and had her contact the spirit of the prophet Samuel for advice. Samuel was rather unhappy with Saul because of this. If I recall correctly, this was one of the reasons why the kingship was taken from Saul's line and given to David.

I find it somewhat amusing that this is basically what Harry does with the Resurrection Stone at the end of the series.
 

Shadowseraph

Well-Known Member
#16
<a href='http://www.redhen-publications.com/HistoryofMagic.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Link</a>

The essay therein is a pretty detailed and sensible approach at creating a believable past for the Potterverse, though obviously certain elements would push it into AU territory, either way its a fairly interesting read.

edit: first couple sections are a bit of a rant, the 'story' starts a bit lower under 'Wild Magic.'
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#17
Jorlem said:
To the best of my knowledge, what you are referring to as the Law of Moses was originally aimed at those who practiced literal necromancy, that is, contacting the spirits of the dead for information. King Saul, at one point in Samuel I, went and found a woman who secretly used (or pretended to use) necromancy, and had her contact the spirit of the prophet Samuel for advice. Samuel was rather unhappy with Saul because of this. If I recall correctly, this was one of the reasons why the kingship was taken from Saul's line and given to David.

I find it somewhat amusing that this is basically what Harry does with the Resurrection Stone at the end of the series.
Except that it's not. Those weren't real people, or even ghosts. Just echos the stone created from Harry's mind. You're thinking of the Stone of myth, not the Stone as it really was.
 

Jorlem

Well-Known Member
#18
Lord Raine said:
Jorlem said:
To the best of my knowledge, what you are referring to as the Law of Moses was originally aimed at those who practiced literal necromancy, that is, contacting the spirits of the dead for information.? King Saul, at one point in Samuel I, went and found a woman who secretly used (or pretended to use) necromancy, and had her contact the spirit of the prophet Samuel for advice.? Samuel was rather unhappy with Saul because of this.? If I recall correctly, this was one of the reasons why the kingship was taken from Saul's line and given to David.

I find it somewhat amusing that this is basically what Harry does with the Resurrection Stone at the end of the series.
Except that it's not. Those weren't real people, or even ghosts. Just echos the stone created from Harry's mind. You're thinking of the Stone of myth, not the Stone as it really was.
Ah, was that how it was? It's been a while since I've read DH. Thanks for catching me on that.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#19
Jorlem said:
Lord Raine said:
Jorlem said:
To the best of my knowledge, what you are referring to as the Law of Moses was originally aimed at those who practiced literal necromancy, that is, contacting the spirits of the dead for information.á King Saul, at one point in Samuel I, went and found a woman who secretly used (or pretended to use) necromancy, and had her contact the spirit of the prophet Samuel for advice.á Samuel was rather unhappy with Saul because of this.á If I recall correctly, this was one of the reasons why the kingship was taken from Saul's line and given to David.

I find it somewhat amusing that this is basically what Harry does with the Resurrection Stone at the end of the series.
Except that it's not. Those weren't real people, or even ghosts. Just echos the stone created from Harry's mind. You're thinking of the Stone of myth, not the Stone as it really was.
Ah, was that how it was? It's been a while since I've read DH. Thanks for catching me on that.
Can't blame ya for not remembering, D.H. had a HORRIBLE ending to a series that had a lot of potential and just started to go down hill about midway through.
 
#20
Why? It's canon.
It may be true enough in the canon world but I'm saying out right that the canon society doesn't make sense given their capabilities and trying to sort out a more reasonable one.
To the best of my knowledge, what you are referring to as the Law of Moses was originally aimed at those who practiced literal necromancy, that is, contacting the spirits of the dead for information.
I'm afraid that I can't quote the passage and am too lazy to look it up but there are a number of practices that are forbidden. They boil down to don't contact spirits that aren't angels sent by God. Don't take drugs, make drugs, or give your neighbor drugs. Don't attack your neighbor with magic, just like you aren't supposed to attack them with fists or weapons.
 

Jorlem

Well-Known Member
#21
divad said:
Why? It's canon.
It may be true enough in the canon world but I'm saying out right that the canon society doesn't make sense given their capabilities and trying to sort out a more reasonable one.
To the best of my knowledge, what you are referring to as the Law of Moses was originally aimed at those who practiced literal necromancy, that is, contacting the spirits of the dead for information.
I'm afraid that I can't quote the passage and am too lazy to look it up but there are a number of practices that are forbidden. They boil down to don't contact spirits that aren't angels sent by God. Don't take drugs, make drugs, or give your neighbor drugs. Don't attack your neighbor with magic, just like you aren't supposed to attack them with fists or weapons.
Here's the listing on Wikipedia of the various types of magic that were forbidden by the Tanach: <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft_and_divination_in_the_Bible' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Link</a>

The first one listed seems directed at parseltounge, doesn't it?
 

Carandol

Well-Known Member
#22
Really, in the Potterverse, there should be a lot of historical events that don't make sense without magic, all the ones where it made a difference. Erasing the records would be difficult enough, without substituting consistent fake records of how things turned out without magic. The references to Merlin do suggest some of the more magical parts of history became regarded as myth, but the same should have happened with more recent magical events.

One possibility is that muggle histories in that world are pretty different to our own. The records are full of obvious myths -- King Alfred's pet wizard fighting Vikings, a magical duel at Hastings, a dragon burning Paris to the ground in 1250AD -- leading to much academic dispute about which bits are based on real events and which are complete fabrication.

A couple of lines from Herminone's parents would be enough to imply this, if they have an amateur interest in history.

The other main option is that magic, for whatever reason, made no difference to muggle history even before the Statute of Secrecy, apart perhaps from isolated incidents such as Merlin. Red Hen's site, linked above, as one theory along these lines, which works pretty well. If official wizarding history is unreliable, quite plausible, you can go further in this vein.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#23
The Eromancer said:
Jorlem said:
Lord Raine said:
Jorlem said:
To the best of my knowledge, what you are referring to as the Law of Moses was originally aimed at those who practiced literal necromancy, that is, contacting the spirits of the dead for information.á King Saul, at one point in Samuel I, went and found a woman who secretly used (or pretended to use) necromancy, and had her contact the spirit of the prophet Samuel for advice.á Samuel was rather unhappy with Saul because of this.á If I recall correctly, this was one of the reasons why the kingship was taken from Saul's line and given to David.

I find it somewhat amusing that this is basically what Harry does with the Resurrection Stone at the end of the series.
Except that it's not. Those weren't real people, or even ghosts. Just echos the stone created from Harry's mind. You're thinking of the Stone of myth, not the Stone as it really was.
Ah, was that how it was? It's been a while since I've read DH. Thanks for catching me on that.
Can't blame ya for not remembering, D.H. had a HORRIBLE ending to a series that had a lot of potential and just started to go down hill about midway through.
Your response is hilariously atypical.

Really, in the Potterverse, there should be a lot of historical events that don't make sense without magic
No, there shouldn't be. Modifying records is only 'difficult' if you aren't a wizard. The wizards in the HPverse are very good at at least one thing; lying and bullshitting to the nonmagicals so they don't suspect anything.

If they can hide dragon preserves and giant reservations in Britain, then they can bullshit history into something that doesn't obviously require magic to make sense.
 

Carandol

Well-Known Member
#24
Wizards can easily erase the direct evidence, no argument there, and provide supporting evidence for non magical explanations just as easily. The problem comes with doing so consistently. The ministry would need to keep an eye on the various history departments, making sure no one had stumbled onto any discrepancies.

The larger the divergence between muggle history and what really happened, the harder it will be to keep it covered up, even for wizards. If, say, Macbeth had been a Dark Lord, with three wives, who ruled unchalllenged over the British Isles and France for 150 years, after killing all the muggle nobility, that's over 150 years of history which have to be made up from scratch, by a committee of wizards - not easy.

All canonical indications are that no such reign of terror happened, of course, perhaps because hiding it would a little too much of a stretch.

Note too, the wizards did not manage to concoct a magic-free version of King Arthur's reign, only to persuade muggles the whole thing was myth.

On the whole, it seems slightly more plausible that wizards only had a moderate impact on the muggle world before going into hiding, for whatever reason, but it'[s certain possible that they had a massive impact which was covered up perfectly. Use whichever option fits the story best.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#25
Saying there should be problems and that it's a big job to do isn't really an argument. They don't have any problems canonically and the Muggles aren't suspicious, so obviously it's working regardless of how much effort it takes to maintain.
 
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