Nasuverse Regarding Tracing

[Ura Mamoru]

I admit to only having second-hand information about the Nasuverse. So, a question about the capabilities of Shirou's tracing has been bugging me.

When Shirou traces a weapon, part of the process includes duplicating the skill with which it was used, right? In Heaven's Feel, Shirou used this aspect to replicate Berserker's Nine Lives (a Noble Phantasm that embodies Heracles' fighting style) by tracing Berserker's axe.

So, knowing that Shirou can duplicate a Noble Phantasm that is the embodiment of a person's skill by tracing that servant's weapon... could Shirou therefore perform Tsubame Gaeshi if he traced False Assassin's sword? Or would the fact that the technique taps into the Second True Magic (even if it seems to do so without use of prana) make it impossible for him?

On that note, in which routes has Shirou seen False Assassin's sword?

 

[ttestagr]

Accessing the skills of the previous user is an advanced skill that Shirou doesn't get on his own. We see this in the Fate & Unlimited Blade Works fights with Gilgamesh. While Shirou was first taught himself to trace Caliburn, it only provided the skill while he was in the process of making it. Once it was made, it was just a sword he had no skill in. He upgraded a little when he tried to make it again to fight Gilgamesh and got it to provide some skill. In UBW, he completely misses this ability but gains better skills with his reality marble and bringing anything he wants out. In Heaven's Feel, he's using Archer's arm and skills. Who has worked on his reality marble for years and can do a whole lot of things Shirou can't.

And to answer your question, Archer or Heaven's Feel Shirou should be able to do it. Heaven's Feel Shirou didn't see it though I believe, the other routes he did.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Accessing the skills of the previous user is an advanced skill that Shirou doesn't get on his own.

Erm, what?

It's an inate part of how Shirou's tracing works. If he traces something, he gains the skills of the wielder, hence why he can actually fight at all. In UBW, he certainly seems to, since he is able to fight Gilgamesh, who is much faster and stronger than him. In Fate, with Caliburn, it is true that he doesn't seem to, but maybe that's because of how he saw it (in a dream, rather than in Saber's hands).

 

[ttestagr]

Accessing the skills of the previous user is an advanced skill that Shirou doesn't get on his own.

Erm, what?

It's an inate part of how Shirou's tracing works. If he traces something, he gains the skills of the wielder, hence why he can actually fight at all. In UBW, he certainly seems to, since he is able to fight Gilgamesh, who is much faster and stronger than him. In Fate, with Caliburn, it is true that he doesn't seem to, but maybe that's because of how he saw it (in a dream, rather than in Saber's hands).

You are an ignorant fool who isn't qualified to present a meaningful opinion, much less fact.

Shirou flat out states that he doesn't gain the skills of the previous users in UBW, but I'm not surprised you didn't remember that since it isn't your favorite route. And hell, your memory for Heaven's Feel has more holes than swiss cheese.

But he is only an "owner".
He does not have one weapon, so he is not a "wielder" who can use his weapon to its maximum potential.

Even in this world, I am no match against any other Servants.
I cannot match the ultimate one even with infinite swords.
Gilgamesh must have the ability, but I do not.á As we have the same ability, as we are both "owners", I am always one step ahead of him since my swords are there, ready to be usedà!

Here is proof of what I said Ura.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Accessing the skills of the previous user is an advanced skill that Shirou doesn't get on his own.

Erm, what?

It's an inate part of how Shirou's tracing works. If he traces something, he gains the skills of the wielder, hence why he can actually fight at all. In UBW, he certainly seems to, since he is able to fight Gilgamesh, who is much faster and stronger than him. In Fate, with Caliburn, it is true that he doesn't seem to, but maybe that's because of how he saw it (in a dream, rather than in Saber's hands).

You are an ignorant fool who isn't qualified to present a meaningful opinion, much less fact.

Shirou flat out states that he doesn't gain the skills of the previous users in UBW, but I'm not surprised you didn't remember that since it isn't your favorite route. And hell, your memory for Heaven's Feel has more holes than swiss cheese.

But he is only an "owner".
He does not have one weapon, so he is not a "wielder" who can use his weapon to its maximum potential.

Even in this world, I am no match against any other Servants.
I cannot match the ultimate one even with infinite swords.
Gilgamesh must have the ability, but I do not.á As we have the same ability, as we are both "owners", I am always one step ahead of him since my swords are there, ready to be usedà!

Here is proof of what I said Ura.

Well, then, how do you explain what Shirou does in HF? And, indeed, how do you explain him not getting totally obliterated by Gil, who is much stronger and faster than him...?

And, I don't see how what you quoted in any way proves that Shirou can't access the skills of the previous user.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Okay, yeah, Tracing does grant the skills of the weapon, as well as the physical presence of the weapon. That's true, Mike.

But, what ttestager is saying is, Shirou's proficiency at using his Tracing will dictate how much of that skill he can pull out. Shirou, on his own, in the UBW or Fate paths, as a novice Tracer, can "pull out" maybe 5% of the "skill-history" of the weapon. Archer, who has spent a lifetime practicing Tracing, can pull out, eh, call it 90% of the skill-history of the weapon. So in HF, where it's Archer's transplanted arm that's doing the work, the arm that's providing the skill will trace the weapon and that 90% of the skill-history.

So Shirou, by himself, can't pull out enough of the history of Nine Lives The Swordaxe to use Nine Lives The Strike with it. But Archer, with his lifetime of experience, can pull enough history out to replicate not only the physical weapon Nine Lives but also the technique Nine Lives.

EDIT: As for OP, I'm gonna unilaterally say Tracing Swallow Cutter would be about as difficult as Tracing Nine Lives The Strike. Somebody like ttestager or Avider, that know as much or more than me about Nasuverse, might or might not agree with that unilateral declaration though.

 

[WizardOne]

Okay, yeah, Tracing does grant the skills of the weapon, as well as the physical presence of the weapon. That's true, Mike.

But, what ttestager is saying is, Shirou's proficiency at using his Tracing will dictate how much of that skill he can pull out. Shirou, on his own, in the UBW or Fate paths, as a novice Tracer, can "pull out" maybe 5% of the "skill-history" of the weapon. Archer, who has spent a lifetime practicing Tracing, can pull out, eh, call it 90% of the skill-history of the weapon. So in HF, where it's Archer's transplanted arm that's doing the work, the arm that's providing the skill will trace the weapon and that 90% of the skill-history.

So Shirou, by himself, can't pull out enough of the history of Nine Lives The Swordaxe to use Nine Lives The Strike with it. But Archer, with his lifetime of experience, can pull enough history out to replicate not only the physical weapon Nine Lives but also the technique Nine Lives.

EDIT: As for OP, I'm gonna unilaterally say Tracing Swallow Cutter would be about as difficult as Tracing Nine Lives The Strike. Somebody like ttestager or Avider, that know as much or more than me about Nasuverse, might or might not agree with that unilateral declaration though.

So theoretically, if Archer were to trace Charlie Sheen's bong... would be able to replicate his 'winning'?

 

[daniel_gudman]

Yes, but two caveats:

1) The prana cost for a non-sword armament is 3-5 times greater.

2) If you can really call that 'winning'.

 

[Avider]

Sure why not.

Might be harder than Nine Lives.



Ok I guess that would be a reason why not.

 

[WizardOne]

Yes, but two caveats:

1) The prana cost for a non-sword armament is 3-5 times greater.

2) If you can really call that 'winning'.

'Winning' is what he calls it I believe.

Famous quotes include 'I have Tiger blood'
'I'm tired of pretending I'm not special
and last but not least 'Are you Bi-polar?' 'I'm Bi-Winning'.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Most pertinently for a discussion about fictional wizards,

 

[WizardOne]

Most pertinently for a discussion about fictional wizards,

They are clearly shit out of luck. Nobody wants to fight a WARLOCK after all.

 

[ttestagr]

Okay, yeah, Tracing does grant the skills of the weapon, as well as the physical presence of the weapon. That's true, Mike.

But, what ttestager is saying is, Shirou's proficiency at using his Tracing will dictate how much of that skill he can pull out. Shirou, on his own, in the UBW or Fate paths, as a novice Tracer, can "pull out" maybe 5% of the "skill-history" of the weapon. Archer, who has spent a lifetime practicing Tracing, can pull out, eh, call it 90% of the skill-history of the weapon. So in HF, where it's Archer's transplanted arm that's doing the work, the arm that's providing the skill will trace the weapon and that 90% of the skill-history.

So Shirou, by himself, can't pull out enough of the history of Nine Lives The Swordaxe to use Nine Lives The Strike with it. But Archer, with his lifetime of experience, can pull enough history out to replicate not only the physical weapon Nine Lives but also the technique Nine Lives.

EDIT: As for OP, I'm gonna unilaterally say Tracing Swallow Cutter would be about as difficult as Tracing Nine Lives The Strike. Somebody like ttestager or Avider, that know as much or more than me about Nasuverse, might or might not agree with that unilateral declaration though.

I'd say Nine Lives would be a bit harder, because Shirou would have had to use not only the Noble Phantasm, but Herk's physical abilities and skill to use it. Its mentioned that Berserker doesn't have enough agility to use it because of his class. Monohoshizao meanwhile is a regular sword and his stats are far closer to Shirou's than they are to Herks. All that he would need is the skill.

I don't even want to get into the Charlie Sheen thing. Except for a bit of shadenfreude on how he really isn't winning at all lately.

 

[shioran toushin]

actually the skill would have a cheaper cost than 9L but it would involve a higher understanding and precise execution of the technique as it's not really a Noble Phantasm or related to a legend or magical in nature, it is the skill of a wraith who spent enough time and effort into the technique that eventually it became a phenomena.

 

[Scrib]

Shirou flat out states that he doesn't gain the skills of the previous users in UBW, but I'm not surprised you didn't remember that since it isn't your favorite route. And hell, your memory for Heaven's Feel has more holes than swiss cheese.

But he is only an "owner".
He does not have one weapon, so he is not a "wielder" who can use his weapon to its maximum potential.

Even in this world, I am no match against any other Servants.
I cannot match the ultimate one even with infinite swords.
Gilgamesh must have the ability, but I do not.á As we have the same ability, as we are both "owners", I am always one step ahead of him since my swords are there, ready to be usedà!

Here is proof of what I said Ura.

The problem with using this passage as a proof-text is that Shirou is viewing the weapons in Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon.

These are the original Noble Phantasms. They'd never been wielded by anyone before Gilgamesh--but Gilgamesh never wielded them, either.

Shirou is here viewing weapons that have never been truly mastered, and hence have no accumulated skills for him to access.

 

[Avider]

actually the skill would have a cheaper cost than 9L but it would involve a higher understanding and precise execution of the technique as it's not really a Noble Phantasm or related to a legend or magical in nature, it is the skill of a wraith who spent enough time and effort into the technique that eventually it became a phenomena.

We can think of it this way:

Do you really need all that much physical skills to use Zelretch?

No.

Is Zelretch's use harder than Nine Lives?

Well, sign point yes.


If it's the same sort of thing, then the same sorta thing applies.

 

[fuyu]

I'm not quite sure that Shirou would be able to perform Tsubame Gaeshi. 9L is a technique that strikes nine times at such a speed that it seems like it's a single hit, but isn't. Tsubame Gaeshi is striking three times at the same time. Thus it might be something that is beyond his comprehension since he has not achieved anything remotely similar to that. That's my argument in regards to that.

 

[SilverBack354]

Isn't 9L a watered down(less than 1%) version of the technique Thousand Shooting Heads cause if it is then pulling out 9L should be very easy for EMIYA compared to Assassin's attack which only ends at 3 strikes.

 

[zeebee1]

The original technique was a sword/bow/shield combo.

 

[fuyu]

Isn't 9L a watered down(less than 1%) version of the technique Thousand Shooting Heads cause if it is then pulling out 9L should be very easy for EMIYA compared to Assassin's attack which only ends at 3 strikes.

9L is Shooting Hundred Heads. It's a technique that became a Noble Phantasm of Heracles.

 

[ttestagr]

Shirou flat out states that he doesn't gain the skills of the previous users in UBW, but I'm not surprised you didn't remember that since it isn't your favorite route.? And hell, your memory for Heaven's Feel has more holes than swiss cheese.

But he is only an "owner".
He does not have one weapon, so he is not a "wielder" who can use his weapon to its maximum potential.

Even in this world, I am no match against any other Servants.
I cannot match the ultimate one even with infinite swords.
Gilgamesh must have the ability, but I do not.á As we have the same ability, as we are both "owners", I am always one step ahead of him since my swords are there, ready to be usedà!

Here is proof of what I said Ura.

The problem with using this passage as a proof-text is that Shirou is viewing the weapons in Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon.

These are the original Noble Phantasms. They'd never been wielded by anyone before Gilgamesh--but Gilgamesh never wielded them, either.

Shirou is here viewing weapons that have never been truly mastered, and hence have no accumulated skills for him to access.

Not quite so. He's viewed Archer's arsenal and taken from there as well. Kanshou and Bakuya especially, but just before that passage he pulled out Rho Aius. He also clearly saw Caladbolg 2 earlier in the route.

 

[Scrib]

However, Shirou is not using any of those three examples there. He's using the same weapons as Gilgamesh--the weapons from the Gate of Babylon.

(Kanshou and Bakuya don't exactly help your case either, seeing as Shirou does have some skill with them in UBW. It's unclear, though, whether that skill comes from the blades, his connection with Archer, or the simple fact that their style is the one best suited for Emiya Shirou, so that point is inconclusive overall.)

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Massive necro, but I wanted to clarify something.

UBWs is essentially a recording device that stores all aspects of a melee weapon, including it's history. However the Tracing that Shirou uses seems to have 2 different types. The regular version, which he used to produce Caliburn in Fate, amongst other things, and the "pulling stuff from the hill" version he used at the end of UBWs.

So what's the difference between the 2? I assumed that the first version involved Shirou imagining a sword, and imagining it with far greater detail than most could thanks to his RM, while the second version involved copying the "data" entirely.

To use an analogy, the former would be like having an image brought up on a desktop to use as a source while drawing the image on pen and paper, while the later would be sending the image to a printer.

The only problem with this is that, although I can no longer find a source for it, is that I believe either an interview or supplementary material stated that Shirou can replicate 5% of the skill of the wielder, while Archer can replicate 90%. How does this fit into my idea of how UBW works? Does the 5%-90% not apply when Shirou's pulling stuff from the hill? That doesn't make any sense, as why would it even be stated that Archer's got a 90% limit if it were the case?

 

[Sunhawk]

Archer just has a lot more practice with the process; give Shirou time to learn how to better sympathize with the weaponry and he might be able to hit Archer's efficiency.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Fair enough, but judging from how during the fight with Gil at the climax of UBW, Shirou compared Gil and himself, saying they were both owners and not wielders, Shirou wasn't wielding any of the blades with borrowed skill. But UBW has complete records of it's stored swords, which should include the history of how the blades have been wielded over the years. So Shirou wielding blades picked up from his RM brought out into the real world should be able to wield them with all the skill of those who used the originals before, right? Or at least all of them should have the "sword moves on it's own" thing that Shirou used against Gil in the Fate arc.

Did that phenomenon occur during Shirou and Gil's fight?

Or is the "reading blade's past wielder's skill" ability separate from the 7 steps of tracing completely, like Shirou's "immediately know a sword's name" skill?