Harry Potter Rowling's Self-Inserts in HP
- Thread starter Prince Charon
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I am more than a little surprised that this thread made five pages, especially this fast.
I am totally unsurprised by Anonguy being a twit, or Lord Raine reminding us that he's capable of being intelligent and wrong at the same time. I blame LR's stubbornness for his behavior, but Anonguy hasn't got that excuse.
I am totally unsurprised by Anonguy being a twit, or Lord Raine reminding us that he's capable of being intelligent and wrong at the same time. I blame LR's stubbornness for his behavior, but Anonguy hasn't got that excuse.
Truthfully, Peter Parker being someone we can relate to is exactly the reason that we are able to supply enough of a suspension of disbelief to accept him getting super powers.
It even goes further than that at certain times, in which we cheer for him to have those powers, because damn it he deserves them.
It even goes further than that at certain times, in which we cheer for him to have those powers, because damn it he deserves them.
It's exaggerated, that much is true.
However, cracked kind of went a different way about that.
She had written a good chunk of it while she had been teaching in Portugal, where she had gotten married and had her daughter and then the marriage failed.
She moved back after her marriage failed basically (though I don't think that was the sole reason.) and while she did decide to take welfare while trying to finish the novel, it's not like teaching pays that well either and she was somehow ignoring this successful famous life she could have with it.
It's not a "rags to riches" story but it's obvious that there were some struggles with being a single mom whose only occupation she could really count on was teaching, which doesn't pay well and already had a failed marriage under her belt.
And again, one of the biggest things that connects her to Harry is the whole part with making him an orphan after her mothers death.
I don't think Harry started as a self-insert for her, but it's obvious that he was a big focus of her emotions, especially for the first book, so she might have ended up making him an SI as a means to funnel her emotions.
However, cracked kind of went a different way about that.
She had written a good chunk of it while she had been teaching in Portugal, where she had gotten married and had her daughter and then the marriage failed.
She moved back after her marriage failed basically (though I don't think that was the sole reason.) and while she did decide to take welfare while trying to finish the novel, it's not like teaching pays that well either and she was somehow ignoring this successful famous life she could have with it.
It's not a "rags to riches" story but it's obvious that there were some struggles with being a single mom whose only occupation she could really count on was teaching, which doesn't pay well and already had a failed marriage under her belt.
And again, one of the biggest things that connects her to Harry is the whole part with making him an orphan after her mothers death.
I don't think Harry started as a self-insert for her, but it's obvious that he was a big focus of her emotions, especially for the first book, so she might have ended up making him an SI as a means to funnel her emotions.
According to the episode "Tolkien's Monsters" of the "Clash of the Gods" tv series it is suggested Tolkien may have done that with Lord of the Rings. I'll have to rewatch it to remember the details, but I do remember he was in WWI, suffered trench fever, and lost all his friends during the war. That really put his works into a different perspective when I learned that.
Basically he went through hell and back so he put Frodo through hell and back.
Basically he went through hell and back so he put Frodo through hell and back.
Peter Parker is a genius on par with Mr. Fantastic and Tony Stark. His mutation 'only' gives him physical augmentation and the spider sense. The webslingers are wrist-mounted mechanical devices that he invented himself in his spare time using parts he had available in his garage and local hardware store. There wasn't even a pressing need for him to do this, like with Stark and his origin story (he always invents the initial prototype to escape capture from someone. Communists, Nazis, Viet Cong, and Muslim Terrorists have all been represented across the various timelines). He just did it for shits and giggles to help complete the whole 'spider theme' he had going on. And that's not even getting into the suits he makes for himself, which, while obviously not powerarmor, are still composed of science fiction materials with physically impossible properties that Peter, again, invented in his spare time.
Only the movies cast Peter as a lovable everyguy. Comic Peter, the real Peter, is a goddamn genius, and the only reason he isn't rolling around in money and patents for all of the ridiculous miracles of modern science, chemistry, and engineering that he invented is because he is, and this is the official explanation, too busy fighting crime and being Spiderman to also do those other things. Not only is Peter smarter than you or anyone you've ever met in your entire life, but he is willfully choosing the life of rental apartments and part-time pizza delivery jobs instead of living the high-life as one of the youngest engineering entrepreneurs ever, walking around in a million dollar suit and offering to take both Mary-Jane and Gwen Stacey (the two love interests that the movie fused together) to Paris for lunch on his private jet.
Peter is not even remotely relatedable on the level you're pretending he is. He's not an everyman, and never has been. He's a boy-genius. If he had never been bitten by that spider, he would have graduated top of all his classes, aced college because he had nothing sucking up his studytime, and gone on to be the next up and coming Tony Stark. He would, in all likelihood, be the CEO and founder of a technology company not dissimilar to Stark Industries, and would be much, much happier than he is now.
Only the movies cast Peter as a lovable everyguy. Comic Peter, the real Peter, is a goddamn genius, and the only reason he isn't rolling around in money and patents for all of the ridiculous miracles of modern science, chemistry, and engineering that he invented is because he is, and this is the official explanation, too busy fighting crime and being Spiderman to also do those other things. Not only is Peter smarter than you or anyone you've ever met in your entire life, but he is willfully choosing the life of rental apartments and part-time pizza delivery jobs instead of living the high-life as one of the youngest engineering entrepreneurs ever, walking around in a million dollar suit and offering to take both Mary-Jane and Gwen Stacey (the two love interests that the movie fused together) to Paris for lunch on his private jet.
Peter is not even remotely relatedable on the level you're pretending he is. He's not an everyman, and never has been. He's a boy-genius. If he had never been bitten by that spider, he would have graduated top of all his classes, aced college because he had nothing sucking up his studytime, and gone on to be the next up and coming Tony Stark. He would, in all likelihood, be the CEO and founder of a technology company not dissimilar to Stark Industries, and would be much, much happier than he is now.
Tony Stark. Bruce Wayne. James Bond. Hell, Jackie Chan. Leonidas. Achilles.
Yeah, movies need no such thing.
Edit: Romantic school of fiction: Fiction is better when it incorporates the heroic in men. Nobody actually wants to read about the everyman trying and failing. They want to read about him rising to the challenge of the extraordinary. That's why books like Percy Jackson, and Harry Potter, are awesome. Ordinary people rising to the challenge of being heroic.
Yeah, movies need no such thing.
Edit: Romantic school of fiction: Fiction is better when it incorporates the heroic in men. Nobody actually wants to read about the everyman trying and failing. They want to read about him rising to the challenge of the extraordinary. That's why books like Percy Jackson, and Harry Potter, are awesome. Ordinary people rising to the challenge of being heroic.
Wow, behold the thread drift. Now we're on Spider-Man! But meh, why not?
And actually, no, the only reason Peter isn't as rich as his talent would allow him to be is Plot-Induced Stupidity.
I read the storyline where Peter can't get rich off of web fluid adhesive because 'it only lasts for an hour'. *headdesk* A super-adhesive with a time limit for wearing off actually has a crapton of uses. Chief among them would be tangle-web shotgun shells or grenades for use by riot cops, the ability to restrain people without actually harming them. Tony Stark actually patented and sold 'tech-foam' in 90s Iron Man for the same purpose. As near as I can tell, Tony made a shitload on it.
As far as 'how could Peter do business without exposing his secret identity'? Well, cripes, two easy options come to mind;
* Give Matt Murdock his power-of-attorney to conduct financial business for Spider-Man. Lawyers cash checks and sign paperwork for other people who won't directly show up to business meetings themselves all the time. And if anybody wants to try and legally get Spiderman's secret ID, 'sorry, lawyer/client confidentiality'. And if some supervillain wants to try and beat it out of Matt Murdock... yeah, that's totally gonna end well for them. (Obviously, this applies back to the era when Matt was still practicing law, but Spidey invented web fluid before his career even started so there's still a time window of decades here.)
* Sell his inventions to Tony Stark... who, again, in a rational world should have no problem at all doing business with a guy in a mask he does not necessarily know the real name of (seeing as how he works with a collection of said folks every damn week). Collect patent fees. If necessary, collect them in the form of a briefcase full of Krugerrands.
* Get a job as Reed Richards' lab assistant. He's one of the few people in the world smart enough, again we're with the 'another superhero is understanding about secret ID issues', and he even gets the benefit of being able to tell his boss 'Sorry, I have to take the afternoon off of work, the Green Goblin is at it again'. 'No problem, Spidey, its not like I don't have to schedule my own life around random Doctor Doom attacks'. Kitty Pryde could get a regular gig as Franklin's baby-sitter back in the day, even though its a 40-mile commute for her, but Peter is Johnny's best friend and lives practically next door and can't even think to ask?
Edit: I would like to take a moment out to praise Hickman's current Fantastic Four run, where Spidey has in fact done exactly this; accepted a job at Four Freedoms Plaza. Granted, the job seems to be 'help the FF fight' as well as 'help Reed in the lab', but hey, as long as he's getting paid...
... he is getting paid, right? Huh. Well, he probably is in Hickman's book but then magically not getting paid in the Spider-Man titles, today's editing being as sloppy about continuity as they are. But I digress...
As to when Peter gets the time to do this; since he isn't actually trying to market his products himself (except in the 'work for Reed' option, but again, superhero flex-time), but is instead collecting patent licensing, he can work at home and on his own schedule. And if he has time to make the nut as a freelance photographer, well, he can quit that job and make it as a home inventor instead.
But I should be fair. This isn't Peter being unwise. This is just writer fiat. Marvel Comics has everybody magically turn stupid whenever its necessary to keep Peter poor. I damn near threw the book at the wall the first time I saw Peter going 'How do I cash my Avengers salary? Spider-Man can't cash checks!'
Seriously? Other superheroes themselves can't figure out that a guy without a public ID has a slight problem in the check-cashing line? They can't just pay Spidey in cash? It still is legal to pay people in cash at the pay window, y'know -- you just have to withhold taxes first! I'm pretty sure the Maria Stark Foundation has at least one tax accountant! *facepalm*
And actually, no, the only reason Peter isn't as rich as his talent would allow him to be is Plot-Induced Stupidity.
I read the storyline where Peter can't get rich off of web fluid adhesive because 'it only lasts for an hour'. *headdesk* A super-adhesive with a time limit for wearing off actually has a crapton of uses. Chief among them would be tangle-web shotgun shells or grenades for use by riot cops, the ability to restrain people without actually harming them. Tony Stark actually patented and sold 'tech-foam' in 90s Iron Man for the same purpose. As near as I can tell, Tony made a shitload on it.
As far as 'how could Peter do business without exposing his secret identity'? Well, cripes, two easy options come to mind;
* Give Matt Murdock his power-of-attorney to conduct financial business for Spider-Man. Lawyers cash checks and sign paperwork for other people who won't directly show up to business meetings themselves all the time. And if anybody wants to try and legally get Spiderman's secret ID, 'sorry, lawyer/client confidentiality'. And if some supervillain wants to try and beat it out of Matt Murdock... yeah, that's totally gonna end well for them. (Obviously, this applies back to the era when Matt was still practicing law, but Spidey invented web fluid before his career even started so there's still a time window of decades here.)
* Sell his inventions to Tony Stark... who, again, in a rational world should have no problem at all doing business with a guy in a mask he does not necessarily know the real name of (seeing as how he works with a collection of said folks every damn week). Collect patent fees. If necessary, collect them in the form of a briefcase full of Krugerrands.
* Get a job as Reed Richards' lab assistant. He's one of the few people in the world smart enough, again we're with the 'another superhero is understanding about secret ID issues', and he even gets the benefit of being able to tell his boss 'Sorry, I have to take the afternoon off of work, the Green Goblin is at it again'. 'No problem, Spidey, its not like I don't have to schedule my own life around random Doctor Doom attacks'. Kitty Pryde could get a regular gig as Franklin's baby-sitter back in the day, even though its a 40-mile commute for her, but Peter is Johnny's best friend and lives practically next door and can't even think to ask?
Edit: I would like to take a moment out to praise Hickman's current Fantastic Four run, where Spidey has in fact done exactly this; accepted a job at Four Freedoms Plaza. Granted, the job seems to be 'help the FF fight' as well as 'help Reed in the lab', but hey, as long as he's getting paid...
... he is getting paid, right? Huh. Well, he probably is in Hickman's book but then magically not getting paid in the Spider-Man titles, today's editing being as sloppy about continuity as they are. But I digress...
As to when Peter gets the time to do this; since he isn't actually trying to market his products himself (except in the 'work for Reed' option, but again, superhero flex-time), but is instead collecting patent licensing, he can work at home and on his own schedule. And if he has time to make the nut as a freelance photographer, well, he can quit that job and make it as a home inventor instead.
But I should be fair. This isn't Peter being unwise. This is just writer fiat. Marvel Comics has everybody magically turn stupid whenever its necessary to keep Peter poor. I damn near threw the book at the wall the first time I saw Peter going 'How do I cash my Avengers salary? Spider-Man can't cash checks!'
Seriously? Other superheroes themselves can't figure out that a guy without a public ID has a slight problem in the check-cashing line? They can't just pay Spidey in cash? It still is legal to pay people in cash at the pay window, y'know -- you just have to withhold taxes first! I'm pretty sure the Maria Stark Foundation has at least one tax accountant! *facepalm*
LR, if you expect comic book writers to not contradict each other and themselves at every opportunity, to the point where Word of God and continuity become hilarious and sad jokes, then you haven't been reading comics at any point in the last decade. 
The problem is doubly compounded when its Marvel Comics, a place where its chief editor has been known to deliberately lie to fans about his own comic book universe. (No, seriously. Some stuff that Quesada spoiled for Civil War later turned out to be BS, and a whole list of things that they said would never be retconned away -- such as Spider-Man's secret identity being publicly revealed -- were then immediately retconned away.)
So yeah, this is me not caring.
The problem is doubly compounded when its Marvel Comics, a place where its chief editor has been known to deliberately lie to fans about his own comic book universe. (No, seriously. Some stuff that Quesada spoiled for Civil War later turned out to be BS, and a whole list of things that they said would never be retconned away -- such as Spider-Man's secret identity being publicly revealed -- were then immediately retconned away.)
So yeah, this is me not caring.
The very fact that comics are so full of contradictions is why you should respect the overriding Word of God on a matter.
I'm not surprised that you don't. You've got a track record of doing it. I'm just pointing out why it's important that you don't.
Do whatever the hell you like. That's the reason why Peter isn't rolling in money and connections. Other runs have occasionally deviated from this by trying to explain why in more practical terms (the police aren't interested in a device that instantly restrains criminals at range, every other superscientist in Marvel thinks Peter's stuff is dinky and unimportant even though it's a hell of a lot better than most things they come up with, ect), but the explanation for it is that Peter does not have the time or the inclination to do that. You can disagree with that and argue against it all you like. You'll be wrong, but that's never stopped you before, so by all means. Justify away.
I'm not surprised that you don't. You've got a track record of doing it. I'm just pointing out why it's important that you don't.
Do whatever the hell you like. That's the reason why Peter isn't rolling in money and connections. Other runs have occasionally deviated from this by trying to explain why in more practical terms (the police aren't interested in a device that instantly restrains criminals at range, every other superscientist in Marvel thinks Peter's stuff is dinky and unimportant even though it's a hell of a lot better than most things they come up with, ect), but the explanation for it is that Peter does not have the time or the inclination to do that. You can disagree with that and argue against it all you like. You'll be wrong, but that's never stopped you before, so by all means. Justify away.
Except that I can sell Joe Quesada's professional integrity for a nickel and get back four cents' change.
The 'overriding Word of God' at Marvel Comics will double back on itself at a moments' notice and with no advance warning, whenever they feel like it. Which makes it worth very very little. I don't treat every author or editor this way, no, but at Marvel they have earned my contempt.
PS: Usually, when somebody tells me that he genuinely doesn't care about what I do or why I do it, he spends a lot less time -- as in zero -- lecturing me about why its wrong.
The 'overriding Word of God' at Marvel Comics will double back on itself at a moments' notice and with no advance warning, whenever they feel like it. Which makes it worth very very little. I don't treat every author or editor this way, no, but at Marvel they have earned my contempt.
PS: Usually, when somebody tells me that he genuinely doesn't care about what I do or why I do it, he spends a lot less time -- as in zero -- lecturing me about why its wrong.
You're proving my point. All those people are action hero types. Relying more on simple tricks, or brawn, or skill, and not on smarts.
Batman is a bit of an exception, but his "intelligence" is downplayed in the movies...
a lot like peter parker.
Boom.
EDIT: Even Tony Stark still doesn't use that bwain for anything but "Oh, I maek cool tech."
Batman is a bit of an exception, but his "intelligence" is downplayed in the movies...
a lot like peter parker.
Boom.
EDIT: Even Tony Stark still doesn't use that bwain for anything but "Oh, I maek cool tech."
Meh, What got me hooked to the books, where the world created "talking about Harry Potter".
I just think I can't see myself in the underdog position. Maybe because I have never found myself in that position.
I like main characters to be people that you think at least have a chance. They shouldn't be average/dumb people. Not that Harry is that, but he isn't someone you would bet money on in a fight between him and Voldemort.
Hmm, That is probably why I read as much fanfiction as I do, since you see more competent people in them. And since I didn't particularly enjoy the main character that much, I don't mind if he acts out of character in fanfiction.
I just think I can't see myself in the underdog position. Maybe because I have never found myself in that position.
I like main characters to be people that you think at least have a chance. They shouldn't be average/dumb people. Not that Harry is that, but he isn't someone you would bet money on in a fight between him and Voldemort.
Hmm, That is probably why I read as much fanfiction as I do, since you see more competent people in them. And since I didn't particularly enjoy the main character that much, I don't mind if he acts out of character in fanfiction.