Nasuverse Shiki

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#1
I just got done playing the Ceil arch of Tsukehime and I have a question. While in the fight with Chaos, the fight where Shiki kills him, Chaos makes it very clear that the reason why Arcueid can't get out of from under the black sludge that he binds her in because its the equivalent of a continent.

Now if we go by this way of thinking then when Chaos took both halves of himself back together then that would mean that when Shiki killed him he more of less killed a "world".

Then later on when Shiki intends to fight both Ceil and Arcueid he forces his eyes to see Arcueid's "lines" even on a full moon.

Now I was once told that Shiki could not kill a servant but now I'm having trouble believing this.
 

Megaolix

Well-Known Member
#2
Who the heck told you that? Servants can die, right? It's kinda the point of the War that they must fight each other. Then he can kill them.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#3
Shiki's eyes are a high level conceptual weapon which kills things by seeing the concept of their deaths in Akasha, the source of everything. With a dot stab, he's actually killing the concepts of real things, with actual death coming as a side effect.

Servants however, aren't part of the material universe. They are souls. Pieces of Akasha materialised while their Noble Phantasms are crystalized myseries, above conceptual weapons. Beyond his eyes ability to see in other words.

PS: Here are the full details of Shiki's eyes, how they work and what they work on.


Eyes of Instant Death
Æ?ÄÇé?ûéèß - Chokushi no Magan
What Shiki obtained; eyes that see the death of things. Represented by black lines and dots. Lines are those lines where it is easy for that substance to break while dots are death themselves. Slice a line and that part will die even if the main body survives and won't move. Strike a dot and that solid object will cease to function completely. Lines will be seen even if one doesn't think about them, but to see the dots, the source of the lines, this requires extreme mental concentration. While it's said to be able to see death as a defined form, it's not death itself but the lifespan of the substance. To be more precise, it's the existential boundary that had been predetermined at the moment of that object's origin (on the other hand, other than Roa's soul, so far he's generally killed objects that have actual physical substance, real bodies and what not - not that he can't, but it'll take some time and adjustment and a migraine). Poke out a dot and you end it's reason/conditions for existing in this world. For example, the soul itself is said to be the one indestructible substance in the world but is only allowed a limited time of existence based on the body it was developed in; this is its time limit. The soul is not destroyed; the predetermined time limit is put to into effect. When that time limit is up, the soul returns to Akasha, dispersed, and then recycled. Therefore, killing phenomena is not possible; everything in our plain of existence can be destroyed or has a time limit. Phenomena come from above - Akasha - directly and take form as occurrences. Current incarnation may be destroyed but the phenomena will keep occurring under certain conditions. Further note that Shiki didn't see dots on said phenomena.

As said again and again and again. It's not so much the existence or the record. It's the predetermined life span, as in what binds the object to the relevant plane of existence, in other words, the time limit, is seen.

And as said in the game, lines cannot be seen on those things that can't be killed (broken) in the present era. The base power of a human user of these eyes work in relation to the limits of the humans of that era. And obviously, as an extension of that, the base power an Earthling user, be it person or object, of these eyes is going to work in relation to how the system of Earth works. Be it rock, stone, salamander, or concept, as long as it was born in this world, there's going to be something fundamentally similar with hairy apes.

Shiki's eyes had originally been for Jougan. By experiencing temporary death, he was connected to Akasha and his brain came to understand death. His eyes work as a set with his brain and so he he could see death directly.

Using his eyes on his own will causes them to turn blue, the color of normal activated Jougan.

The eyes of the other Shiki, or rather, the body of Ryougi Shiki had more or less been optimized for this from the start. Even then, slicing a line on an arm with the remains of Shakamuni didn't destroy it. A second slash did sever it, but it was later reattached. What should have been a fatal strike to Araya, a 200-year old monk that was becoming a concept, didn't kill him either in their first encounter.

Further note that those eyes cannot be used on the Ultimate Ones as they do not have the concept of "death" (a time limit as we humans perceive). Shiki uses his own world of perception (that is the environment he was born in; the world "organic life" can exist in) as the lens for seeing death; the Ultimate Ones, as is the case of Ea (which is representative of the original state of the plent which isn't even possible to understand as long as one is an organic existence), have probably differed too much from the very origins of creatures born from Gaia for the laws of Earth to work on them; they carry with them their laws of nature even outside of their own homes and are closer to the true/perfect state of celestial bodies. Anything born from Earth can be understood and killed as there is a common background. However....

As (Tohno) Shiki understands the "meaning to kill meaning" from the Akashic Records, there is the possibility for him to see the past and the future. However, (Tohno) Shiki's channel doesn't have that much exposure, therefore, at best, he will only be limited to "seeing". It isn't possible for him to "control".
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#4
Here are the full details on Servants. Note that they are considered phenomena.

Heroic Spirits
ëpùý - Eirei

A phenomenon and type of elemental. Basically, the elemental force of humanity.

A word that had had also been used to designate those heroes who died on the battlefield. In other words, dead soldiers. But in this case, better thought simply as dead heroes.

Those who accomplished great deeds during life and became objects of reverence and lore after death. The greatest entities that exist as a force "that protects humanity" and are categorically closer to elementals than wraiths. While elementals are a power that uses "images" created by humans to serve as a container to materialize, what's inside that container for Heroic Spirits is also strung together by the hopes and wishes of mankind. Among the Heroic Spirits, there are those of legends, those that actually existed, and those that remain unknown.

Of course, since there are so many crises going on in the modern era and being solved in the blink of an eye, nowadays nobody is really fit in the grand body of humanity to be called a "hero", at least in respects to those from the past.

Normally, Heroic Spirits are summoned as pure power. Receiving a form and a mind similar to what they were back when they were alive is limited only to the Fuyuki Grail War. Generally when Heroic Spirits are summoned, they're used in Kuchiyose or oracles (as in power is channeled through a medium who then makes prophetic statements or what not).

From the 3rd Heaven's Feel, spirits that aren't technically Heroic Spirits (such as the 5th Heaven's Feel's Rider and Caster) have been summoned. As long as the spirit has a side that is also like a Heroic Spirit, they are summoned, with the obvious limitations of the Greater Holy Grail.

Basic powers are not sufficient to contend against powerful thaumaturgy and mysteries, but their Noble Phantasms can allow them to even destroy higher ranking spirits. While having attributes that are similar to elementals due to divinity, worship (wishes), or contracts with the world, they are/were fundamentally human. A Heroic Spirit will not become a god just by worship, however. Normally exist as neutral personality-less power that can be tapped into. Located in the Throne of Heroes, a different plane of existence separated from the cycle of transmigration (i.e. time). Once incorporated into the world system, they are impossible to erase/destroy, unless an error/paradox occurs that becomes too complicated for the world to support. And even so, this doesn't guarantee that they'll cease to exist; they will continue to exist, no matter what happens.

Copies/emanations/projections are sent out from the Throne of Heroes across all times. What is gained and learned from the emanation is not carried on over to the Heroic Spirit to prevent any paradoxes in what ought to be a completed/perfected/finished being. However, the record of what happened is returned to (or rather, has always been in) the Throne, as well as the power that was sent out to solve the problem. This applies to all Heroic Spirits, not just Archer.

Arthur's soul is still alive and not in the Throne yet as she is not a Heroic Spirit. Which is why she carries on the direct memories instead of a record of what she did each time until she obtains a Holy Grail. In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.

While modern weapons are powerful, those people who use modern weapons mainly are somewhat difficult to be put in the Heroic Spirit category. The greatest advantage of modern weapons is that "anyone can use them with the right training". But see, the thing behind that is that because of that, it's hard for them to become "one sole existence". These are what people call faceless heroes. If there is a hero that has on him modern weapons, what's going to be treated as the Heroic Spirit isn't the owner, an expert that anyone can become by training, but the "most excellent weapon of that era" itself. The weapon itself would have to have a soul however.


Counter Guardians
ù}Ä~é?ÄþîýÄÊ - Yokushi no Shugosha

Guardians.
Heroic spirits that are used by the world to prevent the destruction of humanity but only on the condition that those disasters had been caused by humans themselves. In other words, they are exterminators, summoned not to save lives but to take lives to guarantee the survival of the greater whole of the human species. As long as humans exist, they'll always keep running toward self-destruction, at least in the eyes of the overall group will to survive. It doesn't matter if the intentions are evil or not or if the potential benefits are good; the human counter-force will react to it, crushing it as long as it perceives it to be the cause of ruin for humanity. That's the basic nature of the system - group happiness instead of individual happiness. As Archer learned in death, the justice he was looking for was ultimately just one of the strong feeding off of the weak and then discarding them if they end up threatening the world mankind lives in.

If worshiped or divine Heroic Spirits are natural phenomenon that just happen to be beneficial to humanity, then Counter Guardians are a strictly human phenomenon.

Generally summoned as mindless "power" and only after a disaster has happened with the intent of containing it. Cutting off an arm to save the rest of the body is the operating principle. Whether or not they take a form is unknown. According to Archer, becoming a Counter Guardian is the same thing as becoming a force of "nothing". Sent out by the world, but a guardian of humanity. Divinity or worship can keep one from being allocated into the Counter Guardian slot. The only Heroic Spirit that's a Counter Guardian in Fate is Archer.

Seven of these are used to control Primate Murder.

Some hinting that only Counter Guardians can be summoned "backwards" in time, probably because they're nameless (or are just a representation of a primitive or already innate defensive mechanism).


Reverse Heroes
ö¢ëpùY - Haneiyuu

Those who are hated by people, whose evil actions save people as a result, who clarifies good through evil. While being cursed, they are saviors that became worshiped. Of course, pure Reverse Heroes don't exist. At best, they reach the stage of being those who did good while being evil. Like heroes, they have served mankind when they were alive. However, it was neither the intended result nor were they ever appreciated for it. A target of continuous human hatred and disgust. Generally speaking, unwilling sacrifices, those that were viewed as evil but the end result whether by victimization or actual results saved the world. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure reverse hero, because as time goes on, that hatred and disgust is replaced with feelings of appreciation or guilt. Technically speaking, Archer is both a Counter Guardian and a Reverse Hero. Assassin and Archer fall in this category. Rider, Caster aren't really normal Heroic Spirits but that doesn't mean they are Reverse Heroes.

In addition.

That which is born by humanity, but develop without its help. This contradiction is what results in the creation of a being that is exempted from the pressure of all Counter Forces, an "enemy of the world",
 

Megaolix

Well-Known Member
#5
Oh. I certainly didn't know all that.

But the idea of Shiki not seeing anything on a Servant still sounds strange to me.
 
#6
As far as I know Servants have a lifespan and this means they can be killed by Shiki.

Shiki from Tsukihime can kill anything he can see, but he'll have to really strain his brain to destroy a Noble Phantasm traced by Shiro\Archer or to kill a Servant.

Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai can kill literally anything. I wonder if she can kill a concept of death in somebody, making the target immortal.
 

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#7
kilich said:
As far as I know Servants have a lifespan and this means they can be killed by Shiki.

Shiki from Tsukihime can kill anything he can see, but he'll have to really strain his brain to destroy a Noble Phantasm traced by Shiro\Archer or to kill a Servant.

Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai can kill literally anything. I wonder if she can kill a concept of death in somebody, making the target immortal.
Wrong.

Seravants are dead, and stuck in the throne of heroes, they no longer have a lifespan. If they did, then Archer's whole ordeal would make no sense. There would be no need to try to create a paradox when he can just wait it out and die naturally.

And Shiki can't kill everything he sees if he concentrates hard enough. I can't really explain any better then the already lengthy explanation ttestagr put, but that covers the concept of it. Plus, there are things that have been outright stated that Shiki can not kill. ORT is an example. It is stated that Shiki can't see any lines on ORT, and thus can't kill him as such. Don't assume that just because Shiki could kill most things he came across in game, that he can kill anything.

Besides, even if he can see lines on things, any enemies he came across in game, any DA's, any servants, almost all of them would kill Shiki if they didn't underestimate him all the time. If he were to fight a servant, then even is he could see lines on them, unless the servant just spread out his arms and said "hey, come stab me, since it will never work anyways," then Shiki would be killed.
 
#8
sigfried27 said:
kilich said:
As far as I know Servants have a lifespan and this means they can be killed by Shiki.
Wrong.

Seravants are dead, and stuck in the throne of heroes, they no longer have a lifespan. If they did, then Archer's whole ordeal would make no sense. There would be no need to try to create a paradox when he can just wait it out and die naturally.
I think he was referring to the fact Servants can be 'killed'.
 

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#9
The same logic applies. If servants can die, then why is Archer so hell bent on causing a paradox to escape? If he could escape simply by dying, then he would have done so to get out of the endless loop, instead of going through the trouble of trying to kill himself to erase his existance. Servants already died in their human life, they are now a concept past "death" as Shiki could perceive.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#10
The problem I have with this is that if a servant can be killed, why are there no death lines?

The instant that a servant is summoned, the world begins crushing them mercilessly and it's only the grails nature and the anchor/master that prevents the heroic spirit from disappearing near instantly (unless your an archer for whatever reason). A large part of that is simply that the world registers the heroic spirit as being dead. Very, very dead.

If anything, I'd think not only would there be death lines but serious gaping holes of death. Perhaps even ten time worse than the dead.



*For those a bit lost, when I say the dead, I'm referring to the vampiric lifeless puppets of dead apostles seen in tsukihime*
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#11
kilich said:
As far as I know Servants have a lifespan and this means they can be killed by Shiki.

Shiki from Tsukihime can kill anything he can see, but he'll have to really strain his brain to destroy a Noble Phantasm traced by Shiro\Archer or to kill a Servant.

Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai can kill literally anything. I wonder if she can kill a concept of death in somebody, making the target immortal.
... :blink: I never thought about that last part, could work... hmmmm
 

Akujiki

Well-Known Member
#12
Muramasa said:
The problem I have with this is that if a servant can be killed, why are there no death lines?

The instant that a servant is summoned, the world begins crushing them mercilessly and it's only the grails nature and the anchor/master that prevents the heroic spirit from disappearing near instantly (unless your an archer for whatever reason). A large part of that is simply that the world registers the heroic spirit as being dead. Very, very dead.

If anything, I'd think not only would there be death lines but serious gaping holes of death. Perhaps even ten time worse than the dead.



*For those a bit lost, when I say the dead, I'm referring to the vampiric lifeless puppets of dead apostles seen in tsukihime*
Servants can't be killed by Tohno Shiki for the same reason that spells can't be killed by Tohno Shiki: they're concepts, not things. You don't kill concepts. Much like sigfried said earlier, even when a servant is 'killed' they just go back to the Throne. They're not killed, their physical manifestation is destroyed. The concept of King Arthur stays alive in the Throne to be manifested whenever it becomes necessary.

It's the same reason Shiki wouldn't actually be able to kill off Shirou's reality marble, bad doujins aside. Tohno Shiki can't see the lines on a concept. It's simply not in the range of his abilities.

The only character who can see the lines on a concept is Ryogi Shiki (as evidenced in her fight with Fujino), and that's because rather than seeing the death of something, she sees its origin.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#13
Servants don't die. During the Grail War, when they are defeated they go to the Grail to power it. The entire point of what they were saying about Shiki's weakness towards phenomena is that they themselves don't have a limit in the world. There is a condition or reason that is putting them there, and will keep them there until it ends. That is why Shiki couldn't kill Wallachia, who existed because of the Red Moon. That's why he can't kill Servants, because they exist because of the Grail.
 
#14
The problem with people understanding this comes from the fact Servants can 'kill' each other. Sure, they only return to the Throne, but that's more than anyone can do to Wallachia or ORT.

Nobody can kill them, so it seems natural that Shiki can't. But then we see Servants 'kill' each other, and then have trouble with why Shiki can't do at least that. Nobody expects Shiki to erase Archer forever or something, but the fact he can't comprehend killing their physical body or whatever is odd, since we know that can happen.

Also, didn't get Gilgamesh get an actual body or something?
 

Akujiki

Well-Known Member
#15
Because the body isn't really a body. It's a shell. The servant is quite literally made of prana, just using a class shell to anchor it to the world.

fuyuki wiki said:
Examples of unstained or "chromatic" Prana are Eirei that have been defeated and lost their Servant class (shell); ie souls. In that case, however, the energy doesn't belong to the current world so it will forcefully be returned to a/the originating Throne.
Shiki can't see the lines of prana because prana has no concept of death (or at least not one Shiki can understand).

And Gilgamesh gained a physical body when he was dunked in Angra Mainyu at the end of the Fourth War.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#16
Akujiki said:
Because the body isn't really a body. It's a shell. The servant is quite literally made of prana, just using a class shell to anchor it to the world.

fuyuki wiki said:
Examples of unstained or "chromatic" Prana are Eirei that have been defeated and lost their Servant class (shell); ie souls. In that case, however, the energy doesn't belong to the current world so it will forcefully be returned to a/the originating Throne.
Shiki can't see the lines of prana because prana has no concept of death (or at least not one Shiki can understand).

And Gilgamesh gained a physical body when he was dunked in Angra Mainyu at the end of the Fourth War.
No, not really. A Servant is a soul, held in place by prana and brought into existance by the Grail. That is the entire point of the entire story, its all an attempt to regain the Third Magic. Materialization of the soul.

Seriously, I just explained this.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#17
Umm... I don't recall anything about servants returning to the throne. There is no actually leaving the throne. The servant that's summoned is a duplicate copy of the heroic spirit that currently resides within the throne.

Props to ttestagr for reminding me. When the servant is killed, it returns to the grail which in turn is used to punch an opening into akasha. After that... I'm fairly sure the copy spirit returns to akasha where it's pulled apart/ cleansed of all individuality.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#18
Muramasa said:
Umm... I don't recall anything about servants returning to the throne. There is no actually leaving the throne. The servant that's summoned is a duplicate copy of the heroic spirit that currently resides within the throne.

Props to ttestagr for reminding me. When the servant is killed, it returns to the grail which in turn is used to punch an opening into akasha. After that... I'm fairly sure the copy spirit returns to akasha where it's pulled apart/ cleansed of all individuality.
The copy spirit returns to the Throne, where a record of its existance is kept.
 
#19
When I said 'killed' I meant that the copy of Heroic Spirit sent from the Throne to fight in the War was turned into a cloud of sparks and went inside of Grail.

Also, I do remember that Shiki Tohno can kill any weapon traced by Shiro if he strains his brain.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#20
kilich said:
When I said 'killed' I meant that the copy of Heroic Spirit sent from the Throne to fight in the War was turned into a cloud of sparks and went inside of Grail.

Also, I do remember that Shiki Tohno can kill any weapon traced by Shiro if he strains his brain.
Here is why that doesn't work:

While it's said to be able to see death as a defined form, it's not death itself but the lifespan of the substance. To be more precise, it's the existential boundary that had been predetermined at the moment of that object's origin (on the other hand, other than Roa's soul, so far he's generally killed objects that have actual physical substance, real bodies and what not - not that he can't, but it'll take some time and adjustment and a migraine). Poke out a dot and you end it's reason/conditions for existing in this world. For example, the soul itself is said to be the one indestructible substance in the world but is only allowed a limited time of existence based on the body it was developed in; this is its time limit. The soul is not destroyed; the predetermined time limit is put to into effect. When that time limit is up, the soul returns to Akasha, dispersed, and then recycled.
Specifically, because the Grail is in the world.
 
#21
I know that but I don't see how it can prove my words wrong.

A copy of Heroic Spirit's soul is kept in the world by Grail and a Master, if Master is killed\Servant loses, then that copy goes inside of the Grail.

As I think Shiki by slashing\stabbing just forces the Servant to be sent in the Grail now, instead of later. How can Grail make this impossible?

Or you meant that Servant don't have a lifespan that could be ended?

Or because the Grail is the reason behind Servant's existance, Shiki's eyes won't have any effect on them as long as Grail is intact?
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#22
The copy spirit returns to the Throne, where a record of its existance is kept.
I think that kind of defeats the purpose of their being a copy spirit in the first place. Anyway that's the first time I've ever heard that. You wouldn't happen to have a link to that information would you?
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#23
kilich said:
When I said 'killed' I meant that the copy of Heroic Spirit sent from the Throne to fight in the War was turned into a cloud of sparks and went inside of Grail.

Also, I do remember that Shiki Tohno can kill any weapon traced by Shiro if he strains his brain.
It was also specifically stated that he'd have to kill him self to do that.

The main reason Shiki can't kill servants is because they don't exist in a way he understands. This is way he can kill ORT (who doesn't operate under Gaea's system) and why he had to strain to understand the deaths of material objects.

Regardless, it doesn't matter, as it was specially stated that both Shiki's would be crushed even by average servants.
 

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#24
It doesn't really even matter wether or not Shiki can see lines on a servant or not. If he can, it is still such a strain that Shiki would not just have a simple headache, his brain would fry. So even if he can see lines on a servant, it is impractical, since basically, seeing the lines would kill him.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#25
kilich said:
I know that but I don't see how it can prove my words wrong.

A copy of Heroic Spirit's soul is kept in the world by Grail and a Master, if Master is killed\Servant loses, then that copy goes inside of the Grail.

As I think Shiki by slashing\stabbing just forces the Servant to be sent in the Grail now, instead of later. How can Grail make this impossible?

Or you meant that Servant don't have a lifespan that could be ended?

Or because the Grail is the reason behind Servant's existance, Shiki's eyes won't have any effect on them as long as Grail is intact?
I'll put this as simply as I can, though I'll likely lose some accuracy by doing so. Shiki's eyes see the connection in the target between the world and Akasha, and by cutting or piercing it sends it back to Akasha. The Servants don't have a direct connection to Akasha, so Shiki can't see that link and cut it. The link is in the Grail.

The specific weak point that Shiki's eyes target is somewhere else, so his eyes don't see anything on Servants.

The Grail he might be able to kill, and doing so take away much of all the Servants power. But they can still survive do to the contract with their Masters. Shiki surviving doing this, is far less likely as the strain is likely to liquefy his brain.


Shiki can kill Traced weapons, because they aren't real and have a definite lifespan before they return to the source.
 
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