Nasuverse Shiki

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#26
umm I think I might have to correct you here, Shiki doesn't just kill something like that, he ends its very existance the very concpet that gave it life is destroyed.

Thats why the church no like Shiki, when he kills he kills like a Quincy from BLEACH it doesn't get sent back to be reincarnated. Its why he can kill Roa and no one else can.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#27
^ No.

The definition for the eyes have been given, it's pretty clear. The process's nothing like Quincy.

While it's said to be able to see death as a defined form, it's not death itself but the lifespan of the substance. To be more precise, it's the existential boundary that had been predetermined at the moment of that object's origin (on the other hand, other than Roa's soul, so far he's generally killed objects that have actual physical substance, real bodies and what not - not that he can't, but it'll take some time and adjustment and a migraine). Poke out a dot and you end it's reason/conditions for existing in this world. For example, the soul itself is said to be the one indestructible substance in the world but is only allowed a limited time of existence based on the body it was developed in; this is its time limit. The soul is not destroyed; the predetermined time limit is put to into effect. When that time limit is up, the soul returns to Akasha, dispersed, and then recycled.
The very last sentence itself should be clear enough.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#28
The Eromancer said:
Shiki doesn't just kill something like that, he ends its very existance the very concpet that gave it life is destroyed.
Close, but there's a distinct difference in meaning you're missing.

As ttestagr did, I'll try to simplify this, though I might lose some meaning in the process.

The World (i.e. the 'system' of existence of the planet Earth and everything that comes from it) has an order to it. One of the facets of order is "that which exists, does so for a reason".
There are things that support the existence of an object in the world - the "meaning" and "origin" of it, the causality that allowed it to come into being, and its compliance with the World's order.

Objects can exist as long as their conditions for existing are met. Anything that violates the rules laid down by the World's system is considered a "phantasm" - something that does not fulfill the necessary criteria for existence, and thus does not actually exist - and is mercilessly eliminated by the World.
This is logic - if something does not exist, it cannot be.

Everything that comes into being in the World, except its own spirits (such as the True Ancestors, i.e. Arcueid), have a predetermined end - death - built into their very concept.

What Shiki basically does when he stabs a dot on something, is basically to end all the predetermined conditions for the thing's existence in the World. Thus, moments later, the World snuffs the "killed" thing out.
(Those more knowledgeable than me, feel free to correct and/or elaborate.)

He can't kill Servants or real Noble Phantasms because they're not actually physical objects with normal origins, despite being able to affect the physical world. They're concepts, and he can't kill those.
If he could find the Grail, he might be able to kill it, but this is doubtful since the Grail lacks a real physical form. He could definitely kill the Masters, assuming he had the ability to get close enough. Since the conditions for a Servant's ability to have a presence in the world are 1. the Grail system and 2. their link with a Master, if Shiki could end these, he could "kill" the Servant in a roundabout way - but again, he can't do the ol' dot-stab on them.

He might be able to kill Traced Noble Phantasms, but that would be suicide, as it would cause a Broken Phantasm - all the prana loaded into the NP would explode at once, and with Shiki at ground zero, it wouldn't be a pretty sight.

As for the Soil of Genesis, it was a technique facilitated by a Reality Marble. The "enough strength to destroy a continent" thing was a comment on how much effort it would take to move it, not a description of what it actually is.
It's really all too likely that Shiki wouldn't have been able to finish Nrvnqsr off if he hadn't morphed into his 999th Beast form, thus concentrating all those little death dots into one spot.
Remember, Nrvnqsr was mortal, too. He - like all the other DAAs, and Roa - was merely cheating death in his own way. It was costing him, too, as he had pretty much lost his identity in the process.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#29
toraneko said:
He might be able to kill Traced Noble Phantasms, but that would be suicide, as it would cause a Broken Phantasm - all the prana loaded into the NP would explode at once, and with Shiki at ground zero, it wouldn't be a pretty sight.
This is somewhat incorrect. If Shiki dot-stabs something, it loses all of it's inherent properties, such as, toxicity and momentum. If he was able to dot-stab a traced weapon (and he'd need to kill himself to do such a thing) it would be destroyed, and just stop existing.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#30
Ryuugi said:
toraneko said:
He might be able to kill Traced Noble Phantasms, but that would be suicide, as it would cause a Broken Phantasm - all the prana loaded into the NP would explode at once, and with Shiki at ground zero, it wouldn't be a pretty sight.
This is somewhat incorrect. If Shiki dot-stabs something, it loses all of it's inherent properties, such as, toxicity and momentum. If he was able to dot-stab a traced weapon (and he'd need to kill himself to do such a thing) it would be destroyed, and just stop existing.
so no explosion then?

huh... I'll conceid the point to you guys though, the strain on his brain would be enough to kill him no problem, don't think their would be an explosion though.

So furthering our discussion who else would it be impossible for Shiki to kill? Concepts are obvious, servants are no longer an argument, what about Ciel though? Would the world be able to correct her death if Shiki "killed" her?

And who else in various other anime would it be impossible for him to kill since we're at it.
 

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#31
Well, given that Shiki can kill Ciel in game if you so choose, then yes, I'd say that Shiki can kill Ciel.
 
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