Bleach The Man Without Fear
- Thread starter Hardcore Heathen
- Start date
Frankly the two hand thing was BS from the start, and we see no explosion nor any kind of thing remotely similar to what happened there with it, frankly when the eyepatch came off was far more impressive.
Ignoring how much I hated that plot device though, note also that the two hand thing has only ever worked to anywhere near that extent (As in totally destroying a high level opponent, who Ichigo clearly does not match at that point in the series), was also with the eyepatch off, which as we know considerably increases his power already.
Edit: Suffice to say, if we knew the mechanics behind why it works does not relate to how strong Kenpachi is at that point, there'd be more of a case, but both factors of there being no noticeable increase in power from the two hands along with the eyepatch being on already count against it.
I suppose you could also argue the stance has something to do with it too, because Kenpachi was already in a bad position when the second hand came in, while in the kendo case he had a whole stance and prepared form ready. Which is to say, it's less the 'two hands' and more him striking with actual style rather than just swinging his sword around.
Ignoring how much I hated that plot device though, note also that the two hand thing has only ever worked to anywhere near that extent (As in totally destroying a high level opponent, who Ichigo clearly does not match at that point in the series), was also with the eyepatch off, which as we know considerably increases his power already.
Edit: Suffice to say, if we knew the mechanics behind why it works does not relate to how strong Kenpachi is at that point, there'd be more of a case, but both factors of there being no noticeable increase in power from the two hands along with the eyepatch being on already count against it.
I suppose you could also argue the stance has something to do with it too, because Kenpachi was already in a bad position when the second hand came in, while in the kendo case he had a whole stance and prepared form ready. Which is to say, it's less the 'two hands' and more him striking with actual style rather than just swinging his sword around.
Either way, Ichigo did not block a strike from full blown Kenpachi, and wasn't tripping on some serious power like he was when he cut through it when he struck at Byakuya. Also note the edit. You'd have more of a case if we knew the mechanics behind it, but the problem is we don't. And while two hands definitely played a role, there was also some stress on the word Kendo when that rather annoying scene came up.
However, Ichigo was at least equal to Zaraki when he fought Byakuya. He didn't need to be 'tripping' of Zangetsu's power, as he had mastered Zangetsu. In addition, Byakuya only dealt with a one-handed blow, evening out the difference. In addition, as I said, It's been stated that Byakuya was equal to or greater the Zaraki. As such, Byakuya shouldn't have been bothered at all by the blow from Zaraki.
Edit: The only stress on the word kendo was that Yamamoto tried to teach Zaraki it, who found it annoying and ignored it, but that Zaraki did learn that using two hands made him stronger.
Edit 2: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/15/
Edit: The only stress on the word kendo was that Yamamoto tried to teach Zaraki it, who found it annoying and ignored it, but that Zaraki did learn that using two hands made him stronger.
Edit 2: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/15/
You are arguing scematics at this point. The end result is still Ichigo never blocked a full blown strike from Kenpachi, and his strikes against Byakuya could not have been anywhere near as potent as when he was tripping off said power (Particularly since we can actually see his vizard mask in that aura). You've basically boiled it down to Byakuya should be able to block it based on rather vague facts that don't say anything significant as to what would happen in this scenario (Particularly when there's other factors to consider, as swordfighting isn't that simple, and getting a block up in time after a strike, particularly a thrust, is dodged isn't as easy as it sounds). So when it comes down to it, it boils down to opinion.
Frankly in this case I'd go with Kenpachi being able to break through his defense in this scenario, provided he tried hard enough, as he's the guy who could double block both Komamura and Tousen with his sword with the eyepatch on.
Further, you are basing that him being stronger than him on faulty information. First off Ganju is questionable at best as a source, and secondly when Ganju met Kenpachi, recall the eyepatch was still on.
Edit: Dude, he found it annoying yes. And that was the thing he got. Though frankly it depends on how you interpret the scene, as what Kenpachi 'got' from it might not have been the actual point of what he'd been taught. End of the day, the other points are still every bit as valid though, again, the problem is there's not enough information from the scene to explain whether or not the eyepatch was a huge factor in it. I still say it's BS, but it's because it can be argued like this that it doesn't necessarily create a plothole with the previous scene.
Frankly in this case I'd go with Kenpachi being able to break through his defense in this scenario, provided he tried hard enough, as he's the guy who could double block both Komamura and Tousen with his sword with the eyepatch on.
Further, you are basing that him being stronger than him on faulty information. First off Ganju is questionable at best as a source, and secondly when Ganju met Kenpachi, recall the eyepatch was still on.
Edit: Dude, he found it annoying yes. And that was the thing he got. Though frankly it depends on how you interpret the scene, as what Kenpachi 'got' from it might not have been the actual point of what he'd been taught. End of the day, the other points are still every bit as valid though, again, the problem is there's not enough information from the scene to explain whether or not the eyepatch was a huge factor in it. I still say it's BS, but it's because it can be argued like this that it doesn't necessarily create a plothole with the previous scene.
First of all, though Ichigo didn't block a full blow, but he did equal Zaraki's power in that fight. Second of all, as I said, Ichigo had mastered Zangetsu by then. He didn't need power from him, since he was already making full use of it. Third of all, Byakuya, as I showed, blocked him anyway. Fourth of all, even if blocking after a thrust is hard, Byakuya is extremely fast, and would easily have been able to do it.
I obviously disagree with Byakuya's defense being broken through, because of the above information.
In addition, Ganju's purpose in that scene was to show how Dangerous Byakuya was, so he's not a faulty source of information. Furthermore, Ichigo, after beating/tying Zaraki, was stated to still be unable to beating Byakuya by Yoruichi.
I obviously disagree with Byakuya's defense being broken through, because of the above information.
In addition, Ganju's purpose in that scene was to show how Dangerous Byakuya was, so he's not a faulty source of information. Furthermore, Ichigo, after beating/tying Zaraki, was stated to still be unable to beating Byakuya by Yoruichi.
Vizard mask appearing in the aura seems to say no though. :mellow:
Further that information is questionable at best, he doesn't need to get power from him because he's making full use of it? Uh what? How does having a sudden huge aura come close to his basic sword skills that he used against Byakuya without it? I don't recall any lines coming remotely close to that. Again, scematics. What you believe based on the information in canon regarding this will boil down to your own opinion. Sure you might disagree, that doesn't make it wrong though.
Ganju saying that would show how dangerous Byakuya was if Kenpachi had had his eyepatch off. As such base Byakuya isn't in the same ball park as full powered Kenpachi. However, Ichigo couldn't win regardless because, unlike Kenpachi, Byakuya has a bankai.
Further that information is questionable at best, he doesn't need to get power from him because he's making full use of it? Uh what? How does having a sudden huge aura come close to his basic sword skills that he used against Byakuya without it? I don't recall any lines coming remotely close to that. Again, scematics. What you believe based on the information in canon regarding this will boil down to your own opinion. Sure you might disagree, that doesn't make it wrong though.
Ganju saying that would show how dangerous Byakuya was if Kenpachi had had his eyepatch off. As such base Byakuya isn't in the same ball park as full powered Kenpachi. However, Ichigo couldn't win regardless because, unlike Kenpachi, Byakuya has a bankai.
First of all, Zaraki had weird shapes in his aura to. It was just a fighting aura.
Second of all, Ichigo was tripping on power because he was finally fighting with Zangetsu (who said something like 'If you let me, I'll make sure it never rains', implying that this wasn't a one time thing). That was a major point of the fight. In addition, one of the major points of the Bankai training was for him to then master Zangetsu, which he did. He then had full access to Zangetsu's power. It just didn't show up in a battle aura.
Nonetheless, Byakuya still matched him, even before shikai. Which puts him in the same ball park as a full powered Zaraki.
Second of all, Ichigo was tripping on power because he was finally fighting with Zangetsu (who said something like 'If you let me, I'll make sure it never rains', implying that this wasn't a one time thing). That was a major point of the fight. In addition, one of the major points of the Bankai training was for him to then master Zangetsu, which he did. He then had full access to Zangetsu's power. It just didn't show up in a battle aura.
Nonetheless, Byakuya still matched him, even before shikai. Which puts him in the same ball park as a full powered Zaraki.
The Bankai training allowed him to subdue Zangetsu, not master him. Did you forget that it still takes decades after a Shinigami has gained Bankai the normal long way to master it?
Ichigo is still nowhere near mastering all of Zangetsu's potential, let alone back then. He's still coming up with new moves for fucks sake.
If you actually think Ichigo has 'mastered' Zangetsu, then you have no idea what that word means.
Ichigo is still nowhere near mastering all of Zangetsu's potential, let alone back then. He's still coming up with new moves for fucks sake.
If you actually think Ichigo has 'mastered' Zangetsu, then you have no idea what that word means.
Kenpachi doesn't matter. Ichigo's has his Vizard mask in it, therefore his hollow had some role. How much is questionable yes, but again, this is why it boils down to opinion. It all comes down to how you interpret these scenes. You can't exactly write off Kenpachi's either because, much like the twohanded thing, we haven't had much explanation on it. Unlike the Vizard mask.
Also master Zangetsu? Wut? I highly doubt Zangetsu's base ability stops where it's at currently, and Ichigo still has never used it like his hollow did, and only just recently started using Getsuga in new ways too. Point of bankai was getting the blade to manifest and then forcing him into submission (Or whatever terms they used). I severely doubt the power of your shikai reaches it's peak just because you master (scratch that, just plain reach) your bankai.
Secondly, this still does not remotely say that his basic strikes equal the power he showed at the end of the Zaraki fight. Further having full access to it doesn't even mean he does make full use of it, so again the point is moot. Because I really doubt his strikes against Byakuya equaled that of the Zaraki fight, which is only marginally less than my doubt that those strikes equaled what he did to that pillar thing.
Also Byakuya not being in shikai also doesn't mean anything for this argument, even ignoring the fact that shikai hasn't been stated to give any sort of boost, let alone that equal to Kenpachi with the patch off (Wasn't it like a triple boost in strength or something). He wasn't using it in this case. Base Byakuya is still significantly weaker than Kenpachi at full strength.
Also master Zangetsu? Wut? I highly doubt Zangetsu's base ability stops where it's at currently, and Ichigo still has never used it like his hollow did, and only just recently started using Getsuga in new ways too. Point of bankai was getting the blade to manifest and then forcing him into submission (Or whatever terms they used). I severely doubt the power of your shikai reaches it's peak just because you master (scratch that, just plain reach) your bankai.
Secondly, this still does not remotely say that his basic strikes equal the power he showed at the end of the Zaraki fight. Further having full access to it doesn't even mean he does make full use of it, so again the point is moot. Because I really doubt his strikes against Byakuya equaled that of the Zaraki fight, which is only marginally less than my doubt that those strikes equaled what he did to that pillar thing.
Also Byakuya not being in shikai also doesn't mean anything for this argument, even ignoring the fact that shikai hasn't been stated to give any sort of boost, let alone that equal to Kenpachi with the patch off (Wasn't it like a triple boost in strength or something). He wasn't using it in this case. Base Byakuya is still significantly weaker than Kenpachi at full strength.
I got no problem with the overpowering badassness of Kenpachi 
My only problem with this story is that I'm of the opinion that Kenpachi was a captain before Byakuya had entered the Gotei 13, before Gin graduated from the academy, while Soi Fon was still a body guard for Yorouichi, and before Hitsugaya even thought of joining.
Really it isnt stated when he became a captain, but I'm just going by the flashback arc when Shinji n co are are bitching at the previous 11th Captain for letting the new one take over, and bitching about how SS could let such a "loose canon" become captain.
Even if it's thats not him, Kenpachi was definitely a captain before Hitsugaya.
My only problem with this story is that I'm of the opinion that Kenpachi was a captain before Byakuya had entered the Gotei 13, before Gin graduated from the academy, while Soi Fon was still a body guard for Yorouichi, and before Hitsugaya even thought of joining.
Really it isnt stated when he became a captain, but I'm just going by the flashback arc when Shinji n co are are bitching at the previous 11th Captain for letting the new one take over, and bitching about how SS could let such a "loose canon" become captain.
Even if it's thats not him, Kenpachi was definitely a captain before Hitsugaya.
Arguable there dude. I made a thread on it a while ago, posting a page that kinda throws the timeline into question in that regard. Suffice to say it's up to the interpretation of the writer, because Tousen looking exactly like he did (even with what appears to be a captains cloak) in his mini-flashback to when Kenpachi became a captain, particularly when he seems to change styles like nobodies business, seems to imply he was made a captain after turn back the pendulum, to when Tousen himself became a captain, which could have taken any amount of time.
I suppose.
Amo corrected me, the word was subdue. Regardless, the point remains that Ichigo can use all of Zangetsu's power (not necessarily properly, but he can use it at will, as we've seen).
You can doubt that. And you may be right. On the other hand, I think he was using that much power. However, we don't really know.
The point remains that he was fighting Ichigo (who was, naturally, in Shikai) without releasing his blade. You can say he wasn't using as much power, and I can say he was. We don't really know, though I believe he was. Just like I believe Byakuya at base is near Zaraki's ballpark, if only because of his kido, shunpo, and other stuff.
Edit: I think atharris is right on the Time Line issue.
Amo corrected me, the word was subdue. Regardless, the point remains that Ichigo can use all of Zangetsu's power (not necessarily properly, but he can use it at will, as we've seen).
You can doubt that. And you may be right. On the other hand, I think he was using that much power. However, we don't really know.
The point remains that he was fighting Ichigo (who was, naturally, in Shikai) without releasing his blade. You can say he wasn't using as much power, and I can say he was. We don't really know, though I believe he was. Just like I believe Byakuya at base is near Zaraki's ballpark, if only because of his kido, shunpo, and other stuff.
Edit: I think atharris is right on the Time Line issue.
Oh no doubt Byakuya can make things difficult with shunpo and kido and crap, especially if he keeps it ranged, possibly to the point of actually defeating him even with the eyepatch off depending on how it plays out. You see the thing is, that's not how Byakuya fights. At least not in the beginning. Byakuya starts off keeping it a close range fight, which is Kenpachi territory. If he manages to take advantage of that before Byakuya can get a guess as to his actual skill level, it's certainly possible for him to get a few hits in, and perhaps if he's lucky defeat him early, even if that's not how shonen works.
You see, that's why this falls down to the person writing it and in general opinion on these things, which I stressed earlier, which is why I can buy this fight as it played out, provided they didn't have knowledge of his strength and style previously, which they didn't. As long as literally wrong things aren't thrown in, like him being faster than Byakuya or more importantly Soifon, or just him powering through Byakuya's bankai without his kendo (x3<x5-10) and effortlessly defeating him, it's certainly plausible. You might not agree with it sure, due to your own opinions on the events of canon, but it can't just be written off entirely.
As I said before, the scenario heavily favored Kenpachi to say the least, and him pulling the same thing ever again (Barring psychological issues resulting from how damn scary he is and the fact that he almost killed them which I doubt would be the case with this bunch) is utterly impossible.
Timeline is much the same deal, falling to opinion, though given the scope of canon Heathen had, I'd say it's a decent enough guess.
You see, that's why this falls down to the person writing it and in general opinion on these things, which I stressed earlier, which is why I can buy this fight as it played out, provided they didn't have knowledge of his strength and style previously, which they didn't. As long as literally wrong things aren't thrown in, like him being faster than Byakuya or more importantly Soifon, or just him powering through Byakuya's bankai without his kendo (x3<x5-10) and effortlessly defeating him, it's certainly plausible. You might not agree with it sure, due to your own opinions on the events of canon, but it can't just be written off entirely.
As I said before, the scenario heavily favored Kenpachi to say the least, and him pulling the same thing ever again (Barring psychological issues resulting from how damn scary he is and the fact that he almost killed them which I doubt would be the case with this bunch) is utterly impossible.
Timeline is much the same deal, falling to opinion, though given the scope of canon Heathen had, I'd say it's a decent enough guess.
I'd argue that, if only because shunpo can easily be tracked with the naked eye, even if you can't use it yourself, even to a still severely wounded Ichigo.
But yeah, that's more or less my point, arguing strength in shonen inevitably falls down to how certain abilities interact and conjecture mostly based on opinion so the point in general is largely moot.
But yeah, that's more or less my point, arguing strength in shonen inevitably falls down to how certain abilities interact and conjecture mostly based on opinion so the point in general is largely moot.
I'd like to argue that Ichigo wasn't in as good condition in the Byakuya fight as when he fought Kenpachi.
First off he'd just come from intense "Or else you die" training, he was still wearing bandages ya know?, I also doubt that stomach wound from Yoruichi was healed perfectly by the special water, he'd blocked the Soukakyu(sp?), and was probably holding back a bit so he could use Bankai for the maximum amount of time. Also Ichigo was being pretty casual about the whole thing. I mean how many times did he just stop and rest Zangetsu on his shoulder.
I have to say Ichigo took a very Zaraki like approach to it.
He held back until he realised he couldn't win if he kept holding back.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/161/19/
First off he'd just come from intense "Or else you die" training, he was still wearing bandages ya know?, I also doubt that stomach wound from Yoruichi was healed perfectly by the special water, he'd blocked the Soukakyu(sp?), and was probably holding back a bit so he could use Bankai for the maximum amount of time. Also Ichigo was being pretty casual about the whole thing. I mean how many times did he just stop and rest Zangetsu on his shoulder.
I have to say Ichigo took a very Zaraki like approach to it.
He held back until he realised he couldn't win if he kept holding back.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/161/19/
I sort of wondered about whether or not Hitsugaya would be a captain - because he is the youngest, which means he can't have been one for long. The deciding factor eventually came down to whether or not I wanted the drunkard.
...perhaps I should have brought that silly man in, he could have been MSTing the fight along with Yachiru.
...perhaps I should have brought that silly man in, he could have been MSTing the fight along with Yachiru.
All of you forgot something very important. The Rule of Cool. I don't care that power levels aren't respected, I don't care about who would pwn who in canon. I only care that the fic was awesome, well written and that I found Kenpachi really really cool.