Naruto The Uchiha Clan

[Ashaman]

Since the whole topic of the Uchiha clan is such a huge issue, especially at the moment, I've decided to create this thread to discuss them.

Everything about them is up for disscussion, from their time as a clan at constant war, to their attempted coup.

Though I doubt we'll need it, I'll lay down some basic facts.

The Uchiha Clan are descendents of the Sage of the Six Path's elder son.

Their bloodline limit is the Sharingan, which activates and evolves due to strong negative emotions.

The Clan joined together with the Senju, their long time rivals (and distant relatives) to form the first Hidden Village, Konoha.

The Clan suffered discrimination after Konoha was founded and their Head at the time, Madara, seemingly betrayed them.

They were the Military Police, which incurred further dislike and ill will.

The Uchiha Clan was suspected of being behind the Kyuubi attack, which lead to further discrimination.

The Uchiha Clan planned a coup which failed when Itachi betrayed them and massacred the Clan.

The only survivors were Itachi, who killed his Clan, and Sasuke, Itachi's younger brother.



There, a brief history.

 

[Altered Nova]

I wonder if the average member of the Uchiha and Senju clan is aware that their respective clans are both descended from the Older and Younger sons of the Sage of Six Path? They've presumably been fighting ever since the brothers had a falling out, which would be a long fucking time. Do they remember the reason why or has it become a "the Uchiha/Senju have always been our enemies and that's just the way it is" thing now?

 

[TC_Hazard]

I wonder if the average member of the Uchiha and Senju clan is aware that their respective clans are both descended from the Older and Younger sons of the Sage of Six Path? They've presumably been fighting ever since the brothers had a falling out, which would be a long fucking time. Do they remember the reason why or has it become a "the Uchiha/Senju have always been our enemies and that's just the way it is" thing now?

I would really be surprised if it was common knowledge.

As far as we have seen, even the knowledge of Sage existence seems to have been forgotten by the start of the manga. At best they might have some myths and only the really high up members might know something.

 

[seitora]

How long ago was it that the Sage lived?

And why do I suddenly have the idea of a Bleach x Naruto crossover in my head, but instead of the common Shinobis in Soul Society idea, have Ichigo be the Sage and Juubi be some super-powerful eldricht abomination?

 

[Herdo]

I am a little curious about the coup.

Was the Uchiha clan really strong enough to challenge and take over the entire village? Did they have any allies/support at all or were they completely alone against the whole village?

 

[gojiita]

It had to have been several centuries ago, especially considering how big the clans became. Or do ninja breed faster than rabbits? Or zerg?

Juubi could always be the final form of the King of Soul Society - because like any good high-powered shonen character, he has multiple forms.

 

[Altered Nova]

I am a little curious about the coup.

Was the Uchiha clan really strong enough to challenge and take over the entire village? Did they have any allies/support at all or were they completely alone against the whole village?

With Itachi and Shisui's help they probably were strong enough to conquer the village alone, assuming they waited until Jiraiya was out of town. But with those two bailing on the clan and having lost the element of surprise, they probably were screwed unless they were planning to raid Danzou's laboratory for Hashirama's DNA or trap the village in a mini-moon's eye plan by bouncing a genjutsu off the forehead of Hashirama's Hokage monument statue or something.

Maybe they never actually thought they had a real chance of pulling it off, but were counting on the fact that they were still strong enough to seriously cripple the village if it came to a fight. The coup seemed to me to be a desperation plan, their last ditch effort to save themselves before they were so weakened by the village's oppression that they became permanent second class citizens. If Itachi hadn't betrayed them that could have worked out for them - "Meet us at the bargaining table in good faith or we'll force you to put us down and burn as much of this village to the ground as possible in the process." Would you accept that challenge if you were the Hokage, knowing that a lot of innocent people are going to suffer, even if you felt their grievances weren't genuine? If it weren't for Dazou's meddling Sarutobi and Fugaku probably would have worked out a compromise.

 

[Knyght]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jiraiya hadn't been in Konoha since before Naruto's birth seeing as he'd never seen the seal before. He wouldn't be an immediate concern.

 

[jaredstar]

with all that in mind where did the concept of the uchiha (sasuke in particular) being near worshiped come from

 

[Ashaman]

Most likely the Chuunin exams, where Sasuke's fight was highly anticipated.

Was the Uchiha clan really strong enough to challenge and take over the entire village? Did they have any allies/support at all or were they completely alone against the whole village?

I get the feeling they were past caring at this point.

"Give me freedom or give me death."

Even if their coup had a very low chance for success, they'd rather try for that small chance of victory and risk defeat and death, than to continue to live under discrimination.

 

[TC_Hazard]

How long ago was it that the Sage lived?

And why do I suddenly have the idea of a Bleach x Naruto crossover in my head, but instead of the common Shinobis in Soul Society idea, have Ichigo be the Sage and Juubi be some super-powerful eldricht abomination?

Let's see...

Chouji will be the 16 head of the Akimichi clan. At 20 years per generation that's 320 years (4 years less because Chouji is not 20 but whatever).

But things aren't going to be really that exact, As shown in the recent flashback ninja mortality rate was rather high, and Madara is stated to have lost a few older brothers. Ninja could have relatively long lives provided they didn't get killed off as kids.

Anyway, there was a ninja clan around three centuries ago (almost five if you use the '30 years life expectancy' provided by the flashback) at least.

So the Sage lived at least 3 centuries ago given that he started the whole ninja thing. He probably lived even longer ago, unless one of his first disciples was the guy that became the first Akimichi head.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Anyway, there was a ninja clan around three centuries ago (almost five if you use the '30 years life expectancy' provided by the flashback) at least.

a correction: we don't know if they were ninja back then.
We know a number of Samurai clan became ninja over time. It's therefore possible the Akimichi started as a Samurai clan.


Also, I wonder what the Uchiha thought after Shisui's death. He was stated being the most skilled Uchiha at the time, as well the best Genjutsu user of the clan, and had the completely broken Kotoamatsukami.
Most likely, the Uchiha were betting on using it to turn the tide in their favour.
Was his death taken as a sign the Village wanted their best dead? Had they even thought of forsaking the coup because their trump card was killed?
I mean, IIRC Itachi killed them something like two days after that. What if he waited and the clan decided to stop the coup until they could make a new plan, while keeping on with the negotiations?

 

[e39042]

There's enough mystery still surrounding the Uchiha clan's extermination that I find it impossible to draw any conclusions at the moment.
We know Shisui and Danzo were involved, as well as Obito, Itachi and the Hokage.
We also know Shisui had lost one of his eyes prior to the massacre, and that Danzo has it.
Then there's the fact Shisui's eye was on cool-down prior to Danzo's fight with Sasuke confirming that it was used at least once in the past.
If we look to Hiruzen's past acts as Hokage we know he's a peacekeeper - all you need do is look at the way he dealt with Cloud over the Hyuuga incident to see that.
So what we have is Danzo who covets the Sharingan in possession of Shisui's eye, the Uchiha who are apparently planning a coup, a Hokage who compromises, and a crazed Uchiha with plans to trap the world in a Genjutsu.
I'm not usually one for conspiracy, but I think there's a lot more to this story than we've heard and I think Shisui's eye is at the center of it.

I don't think the shunned Uchiha story fits well with what we know of Sasuke post-massacre either. The population at large seemed to adore him and it sure as hell wasn't for his personality.

 

[Masterly]

I don't think the shunned Uchiha story fits well with what we know of Sasuke post-massacre either. The population at large seemed to adore him and it sure as hell wasn't for his personality.

He was the village's tragic sweetheart who lost his entire clan at the hands of his older brother. Even if the village as a whole disliked the Uchiha it's kind of hard to pin that anger on a little kid who had no connection to the MP and was made to suffer some serious trauma. I'm guessing it was a mixture of pity and empathy that really drove up the adoration.

And as for anticipating his fight at the Chuunin exams, that's also totally understandable. He's the son of the last Uchiha head and has a sharingan unlocked. Say what you will about him, but Sasuke was a talented ninja who was well on his way to making some pretty big waves in the ninja world. That much was obvious even when he was thirteen.

 

[Altered Nova]

I'm gonna repost these ideas from the New Chapter thread because they're relevant and I thought they were a really good theory:

Honestly, I can buy that the Sharingan makes you more prone to certain self destructive behavior, but I just don't believe it does so to the extend Tobirama believes.

Well, when you remember that the Sharingan's ancestry is traced right back to the Sage of the Six Paths, who made himself into the tentails jinchuriki,and whose son with his eyes decided he needed to murderkill his younger brother out of jealousy, the idea of the Sharingan driving the Uchiha crazy evil becomes a lot more plausible. Especially since we've yet to get a completely documented explanation for why the Magenkyo Sharingan causes the user to eventually go blind, but trading out eyes for the eternal version doesn't. And seeing that we got an explanation for how people come up with the Sharingan in the first place, I'd expect the same for those points.

My persona headcanon says that the Tentails has been "alive" all this time, and its will has been secreted among the Uchiha descendents, subtly pushing them into madness in order to recover its original body and chakra. The Sage, knowing that the Tentails would somehow try to reunite, put into place a blood-inherited seal that would prevent his descendents from falling under its thrall. The seal has been weakening over the generations, though, as evidenced by the Uchiha come to discover the Magenkyo Sharingan only recently in history, though it still works, slowly sealing away the Magenkyo instead of outright preventing it from occurring at all.

That's a very interesting theory. The Sharingan as a collective seal on the Juubi, spread out among the entire Uchiha clan and containing it's chakra within their genes? It would explain why you must perform an evil act such as murdering a loved one to acquire the Mangekyou Sharingan, and why the Mangekyou tends to drive it's users insane with grief and hatred - you are inadvertently weakening the seal with a sacrificial ritual in order to gain access to an ancient evil monster's power. It would explain the "special chakra" that appears in the Uchihas' brains when they experience traumatic emotional loss and why that chakra heightens and feeds off of negative emotions - that's the Juubi's chakra. It would explain why the Sharingan has so many ridiculous, disparate powers and jutsu - they are all manifestations of the Juubi's eldritch power. Hell, it would even explain why Obito wanted to exterminate his own clan for no apparent fucking reason - he needed to break the seal so he could awaken the Juubi for the Moon's Eye plan!

Holy shit this makes so much sense!

Edit: It even explains why Hashirama's chakra can power up the Sharingan. He could control the bijuu, and the sharingan's powers are all derived from the Juubi!

 

[Ashaman]

I'm gonna repost these ideas from the New Chapter thread because they're relevant and I thought they were a really good theory:

Honestly, I can buy that the Sharingan makes you more prone to certain self destructive behavior, but I just don't believe it does so to the extend Tobirama believes.

Well, when you remember that the Sharingan's ancestry is traced right back to the Sage of the Six Paths, who made himself into the tentails jinchuriki,and whose son with his eyes decided he needed to murderkill his younger brother out of jealousy, the idea of the Sharingan driving the Uchiha crazy evil becomes a lot more plausible. Especially since we've yet to get a completely documented explanation for why the Magenkyo Sharingan causes the user to eventually go blind, but trading out eyes for the eternal version doesn't. And seeing that we got an explanation for how people come up with the Sharingan in the first place, I'd expect the same for those points.

My persona headcanon says that the Tentails has been "alive" all this time, and its will has been secreted among the Uchiha descendents, subtly pushing them into madness in order to recover its original body and chakra. The Sage, knowing that the Tentails would somehow try to reunite, put into place a blood-inherited seal that would prevent his descendents from falling under its thrall. The seal has been weakening over the generations, though, as evidenced by the Uchiha come to discover the Magenkyo Sharingan only recently in history, though it still works, slowly sealing away the Magenkyo instead of outright preventing it from occurring at all.

That's a very interesting theory. The Sharingan as a collective seal on the Juubi, spread out among the entire Uchiha clan and containing it's chakra within their genes? It would explain why you must perform an evil act such as murdering a loved one to acquire the Mangekyou Sharingan, and why the Mangekyou tends to drive it's users insane with grief and hatred - you are inadvertently weakening the seal with a sacrificial ritual in order to gain access to an ancient evil monster's power. It would explain the "special chakra" that appears in the Uchihas' brains when they experience traumatic emotional loss and why that chakra heightens and feeds off of negative emotions - that's the Juubi's chakra. It would explain why the Sharingan has so many ridiculous, disparate powers and jutsu - they are all manifestations of the Juubi's eldritch power. Hell, it would even explain why Obito wanted to exterminate his own clan for no apparent fucking reason - he needed to break the seal so he could awaken the Juubi for the Moon's Eye plan!

Holy shit this makes so much sense!

Edit: It even explains why Hashirama's chakra can power up the Sharingan. He could control the bijuu, and the sharingan's powers are all derived from the Juubi!

Yeah, no. I can buy that the Sharingan is derived from the Juubi and the association causes mental instabilities, but I really balk at the idea of it being sentient inside them and prodding them towards insanity.

Cause then I'd have to entertain the question of why the Senju, their cousins, don't have this problem.


Furthermore, I'll repost my own thoughts on why Obito wanted the Clan dead;

Another possible reason that Obito wanted them dead - They were a threat to the Moon-Eyes-Plan.

In a plan centred around Tailed Beasts and Genjutsu, I know I'd want the clan who can control Tailed Beasts and see through Genutsu either on my side or dead.

 

[Knyght]

Cause then I'd have to entertain the question of why the Senju, their cousins, don't have this problem.

Perhaps because they're descended from the younger son. All the nasty could have been gone straight to the first son so there was nothing left for the second one.

 

[zeebee1]

As far as the survivors go that's not true. Obito might not have been there, but he's still a living Uchiha.

 

[datakim]

Cause then I'd have to entertain the question of why the Senju, their cousins, don't have this problem.

Perhaps because they're descended from the younger son. All the nasty could have been gone straight to the first son so there was nothing left for the second one.

Since we don't have an exact timeline, its also plausible to say that maybe the sage created the 9 bijuu before having his second child. If he was no longer a jinchuuriki when the Senju ancestor was born, then that child would have inherited things solely from the sage.

In other words

1.Sage becomes juubi Jin
2.Sage has first son. First son inherits traits from Juubi and is corrupted
3.Sage destroys Juubi by creating the 9 bijuu. Ceases being jinchuuriki
4.Sage has second son. Second son does not inherit things from Juubi and is not corrupted.

This would even be a plausible way to explain how the traits split so evenly (eyes/body). The sage presumably had the whole strong body thing going on. Juubi has the sharinnegan, implying somekind of powerfull doujutsu. The older brother might have got his eyes not from his father, but from the Juubi itself. Exposure to Juubi however might have had a nasty effect on health, and as such the older brother did not inherit the lifeforce/vitality of his father.

Younger son would not have got the eyes because the Juubi was gone by then. But because the Juubi was gone, he was not harmed by Juubis power and inherited the strong vitality thing that Senju&Uzumaki have going for them.

 

[seitora]

Well, we know he can't have separated the Juubi into the Nine on his deathbed, else we wouldn't have that scene with all the chibi bijuu.

 

[MTing]

We should also look at the way Madara and Hashirama controlled Kurama in the fight.

Madara used his eyes to force Kurama to fight while Hashirama used his powers to subjugate him.

We've also seen Yamato use the Mokuton to subjugate Kyuubi's chakra when it was leaking out of Naruto.

The first son enforces his will upon the bijuu by having the authority of the Juubi (Using the Eyes)

The second son placates and subjugates the bijuu using his "body". (In this case, the Mokuton or literally the Uzumaki Body)

All this gives some weight to the first son corruption theory.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

We were told that was at the end of his life, though.

 

[Ashaman]

We should also look at the way Madara and Hashirama controlled Kurama in the fight.

Madara used his eyes to force Kurama to fight while Hashirama used his powers to subjugate him.

We've also seen Yamato use the Mokuton to subjugate Kyuubi's chakra when it was leaking out of Naruto.

The first son enforces his will upon the bijuu by having the authority of the Juubi (Using the Eyes)

The second son placates and subjugates the bijuu using his "body". (In this case, the Mokuton or literally the Uzumaki Body)

All this gives some weight to the first son corruption theory.

No it doesn't.

Seriously, not a single word of what you said indicates that.

All you've said is that both use their powers in different ways.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

We were told that was at the end of his life, though.

that flashback must have been, it did sound like the last words of a dying man... but it seemed like he lived with the nine for some time before then. probably he created the nine some months or years before, and they were asked to go travel the world only after his death? So people though they were born at the same time of his death.

...damn, seeing both ashaman and altered nova in a thread looks weird... I sometimes mistake the two even when they are one after the other

 

[Ashaman]

Cause then I'd have to entertain the question of why the Senju, their cousins, don't have this problem.

Perhaps because they're descended from the younger son. All the nasty could have been gone straight to the first son so there was nothing left for the second one.

Since we don't have an exact timeline, its also plausible to say that maybe the sage created the 9 bijuu before having his second child. If he was no longer a jinchuuriki when the Senju ancestor was born, then that child would have inherited things solely from the sage.

In other words

1.Sage becomes juubi Jin
2.Sage has first son. First son inherits traits from Juubi and is corrupted
3.Sage destroys Juubi by creating the 9 bijuu. Ceases being jinchuuriki
4.Sage has second son. Second son does not inherit things from Juubi and is not corrupted.

This would even be a plausible way to explain how the traits split so evenly (eyes/body). The sage presumably had the whole strong body thing going on. Juubi has the sharinnegan, implying somekind of powerfull doujutsu. The older brother might have got his eyes not from his father, but from the Juubi itself. Exposure to Juubi however might have had a nasty effect on health, and as such the older brother did not inherit the lifeforce/vitality of his father.

Younger son would not have got the eyes because the Juubi was gone by then. But because the Juubi was gone, he was not harmed by Juubis power and inherited the strong vitality thing that Senju&Uzumaki have going for them.

I don't really like this explanation either, because it hinges on the idea that the Sage's body was hax in the first place. And on the ide that the Rinnegan is due to the Sage's sealing when we don't have a defined "cause and effect" in this case.

And before you start to spout off that is 'obvious' because of the Juubi's eye, its almost equally obvious that sealing a being of immeasurable chakra will have some effect on a guys vitlity in an upwards direction.