Harry Potter Thoughts on Harry Potter, Arch-Magus

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#26
Lord Raine said:
But at the same time don't they just have a NACK for enticing their own fruition?
According to canon, no.
yet when prophecies are made they just HAPPEN to be witnessed by people that would bring it about?

There's no doubt this is a question similar to "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?"

Like I said, prophecies are self-fulfilling and yet somehow they still happen. Word of God(dess) says one thing yet I see something else entirely different is taking place. Just pointing out a flaw.

Besides, this is an AU, here Dragonbard is (demi)God.
 

HiddenCyan

Well-Known Member
#27
Isn't it canon that the vast majority of the prophecies in the DoM were total garbage?
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#28
HiddenCyan said:
Isn't it canon that the vast majority of the prophecies in the DoM were total garbage?
Yes. In fact, Word of God states that they all were, including the Prophecy Prophecy. The only reason any of this shit happened even remotely the way it did is because Voldemort is a stupid bastard who looks at horoscopes like most people look at religious texts.
 

Hawk

Well-Known Member
#29
What I don't get is why there was a Hall of Prophecy at all, why bother with the complex secure storage?

Edit: And why didn't they use the spell that secures prophecies to secure the philosopher's stone?

And why Voldemort didn't use the same spell to secure his horcruxes.
 

e39042

Well-Known Member
#30
You barely got anywhere with the original story. Unless you want to change Harry's character, I don't see the point of a re-write as the sole focus of the story so far has been Harry and his abilities. Personally I think your first year Harry is ridiculously overpowered, and the story is boring because of it, but if your only reason for wanting to rewrite is to add even more abilities to Harry, then just continue with what you have and let Harry continue to discover more and more.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#31
It seems the reason to store them is that self fulfilling prophecies only become true if someone believes in them. The intent was most likely to stop people from finding out about them.
 

Amberion

Well-Known Member
#32
zeebee1 said:
It seems the reason to store them is that self fulfilling prophecies only become true if someone believes in them. The intent was most likely to stop people from finding out about them.
But then we have her second prophecy, the one about Voldemorts rebirth. Only Harry and the Headmaster knew about it, it still happened despite them not doing anything about it.

Another thought, would she have made the first prophecy if Snape wasn't there to overhear it? Would she have it later when someone who would report it to him would have been near?
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#33
Does any of this matter since Word of God and Word of Dumbledore have already settled the matter?

Oh look, a question we can actually answer.

No.
 

WhiteKnightLeo

Well-Known Member
#34
Lord Raine said:
Does any of this matter since Word of God and Word of Dumbledore have already settled the matter?

Oh look, a question we can actually answer.

No.
What exactly was the Word of God in this case?
 

Amberion

Well-Known Member
#35
WhiteKnightLeo said:
Lord Raine said:
Does any of this matter since Word of God and Word of Dumbledore have already settled the matter?

Oh look, a question we can actually answer.

No.
What exactly was the Word of God in this case?
That prophecies are not set in stone.

She has never said that they are bullshit. She has said that both Voldemort and Harry could have walked away from it, but it isn't in their character to have done that.

Another thing is that she has drawn inspiration from Macbeth, and people still arguing that prophecy today.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#36
Amberion said:
WhiteKnightLeo said:
Lord Raine said:
Does any of this matter since Word of God and Word of Dumbledore have already settled the matter?

Oh look, a question we can actually answer.

No.
What exactly was the Word of God in this case?
That prophecies are not set in stone.

She has never said that they are bullshit. She has said that both Voldemort and Harry could have walked away from it, but it isn't in their character to have done that.

Another thing is that she has drawn inspiration from Macbeth, and people still arguing that prophecy today.
Also in other news, Dumbledore has been wrong before about shit.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#37
The Eromancer said:
Amberion said:
WhiteKnightLeo said:
Lord Raine said:
Does any of this matter since Word of God and Word of Dumbledore have already settled the matter?

Oh look, a question we can actually answer.

No.
What exactly was the Word of God in this case?
That prophecies are not set in stone.

She has never said that they are bullshit. She has said that both Voldemort and Harry could have walked away from it, but it isn't in their character to have done that.

Another thing is that she has drawn inspiration from Macbeth, and people still arguing that prophecy today.
Also in other news, Dumbledore has been wrong before about shit.
... and JKR has contradicted herself about things.

One of these days, someone who has links to JKR's interviews should start a reference thread for things she said in them, since we tend to argue about them, and it would allow people to cite sources, rather than just saying 'she said this'.

For example, I've many times seen the claim that JKR once said that a Muggle with a shotgun would kill a typical wizard (or a Death Eater, both have been claimed), but I have never once seen the transcript of that interview.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#38
Amberion said:
WhiteKnightLeo said:
Lord Raine said:
Does any of this matter since Word of God and Word of Dumbledore have already settled the matter?

Oh look, a question we can actually answer.

No.
What exactly was the Word of God in this case?
That prophecies are not set in stone.

She has never said that they are bullshit. She has said that both Voldemort and Harry could have walked away from it, but it isn't in their character to have done that.

Another thing is that she has drawn inspiration from Macbeth, and people still arguing that prophecy today.
Right. And if they can both just walk away from it, it's obviously not binding in any way, shape, or form. It's just a statement that this might happen if these other qualifiers were also met, maybe.

Dumbledore said it, and Rowling said it. That's case closed. Any arguments beyond that point are pure bitching for the sake of being contrary. Dumbledore is a mouthpiece of exposition in canon, and Rowling's word is God. Prophecies aren't binding, and are pretty much total bunk all around. Dumbledore flat-out said that sometimes people, in trying to avoid a prophecy, make it come true, and other times people who try to fulfill a prophecy wind up not doing it specifically because they tried to make it happen. Thus, Dumbledore concluded (logically, and I agree with him 100%) that all prophecies are just shots in the dark, and that they don't actually mean anything or hold any value unless you're superstitious enough to ascribe some merit to them.

And that's all true. Rowling very clearly stated, as did Dumbledore, that the prophecy itself is nonbinding and means absolutely nothing, but since Voldemort believes all prophecy is True Prophecy and must come to pass, he'll never leave Harry alone or stop trying to kill Harry, because he believes that if he can just kill Harry, no one else will be able to oppose him.


Also, the shotgun statement is false. She never said that, and the claim that she did was debunked a long time ago. However, a muggle probably could, depending on certain variables. If the wizard was taking the fight seriously and understood the threat that the shotgun posed, it would probably go to the wizard. However, most wizards don't even know what a gun is, and the ones that do seem to have trouble even remembering what you call them. Someone who was cocky and arrogant and ignorant of muggles in general, like Fudge, your average Death Eater, or pretty much any pureblood, would probably either not understand or not take it seriously, and thus catch a shotgun blast to the chest. Wizards who aren't that stupid or who know a lot about muggles, like Harry, Hermione, Dumbledore, any muggleborn, and possibly most half-bloods, though, would know what the hell they were looking at and know how dangerous it can be, and thus act accordingly.

The biggest problem you run into with wands versus guns is that all spells require at least a little bit of time to use; at least enough time to say the words of the spell. Conversely, all you need to do to use a gun is pull the trigger. The gun will fire much, much faster than the wand, assuming the wand is in the hands of an average wizard. Whether or not shielding spells can block bullets is almost a moot point, because unless you're skilled enough to cast one with a flick of a wand and without saying anything (which puts you well beyond the skills of an average wizard), you'll be shot by the gun before you can even get the shield up in the first place.

There are a lot of variables involved, but in general, I would give the advantage to the shotgun. Which makes sense, if you think about it. A wand is a general purpose tool that can accomplish a great many things. A gun is designed from the ground-up to be a weapon, and nothing but a weapon. The wand in the hands of a normal wizard can't give you the same kind of slaughter-per-second ratio that a gun can, but then again, there isn't a gun made that can heal gunshot wounds.
 

e39042

Well-Known Member
#39
Regardless of what Dumbledore had to say about prophecy and what Rowling has said in interviews, there are at least some 'True Prophecies'. This isn't debatable. The Pettigrew prophecy is one example. If Dumbledore truly believed prophecy was bollocks then why did he bother informing Harry of the exact wording, hire Trelawney immediately after hearing it, or place so much importance on preventing Voldemort from hearing it in its entirety?

Rowling contradicts herself on this topic; what's written doesn't match what's said.

What I want to know is how those prophecy orbs are generated. Are they memories volunteered for storage, or are they automatically generated by magic? If it's the former then I would put forward the suggestion that there are in fact a lot of fake prophecies stored in that hall. I think it's more likely to be the latter though.

One possibility is that free will trumps destiny, or in other words, knowledge of your destiny allows you to alter it. Then again, 100% of the prophecies known to the reader came true.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#40
Yes, it is. You can't name an instance of a 'True' prophecy. Also, Dumbledore's actions make perfect sense. Try to remember that he's running a school. Divination is a class. He was originally going to cut the class entirely from the curriculum, but Trelawny giving a prophecy in the middle of the interview convinced Dumbledore to give it one more shot.

There's nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

or place so much importance on preventing Voldemort from hearing it in its entirety?
Tactics: you don't understand them.

Voldemort wants the full prophecy. There's only one place to get it. That means that, so long as Voldemort doesn't know the prophecy in it's entirety, he will HAVE to go to the Ministry of Magic at some point. He has to. There is no other way. That means that Dumbledore can have at least one thing he can count on in regards to Voldemort's movements: Voldemort must, at some point, come here.
 

e39042

Well-Known Member
#41
Lord Raine said:
Yes, it is. You can't name an instance of a 'True' prophecy. Also, Dumbledore's actions make perfect sense. Try to remember that he's running a school. Divination is a class. He was originally going to cut the class entirely from the curriculum, but Trelawny giving a prophecy in the middle of the interview convinced Dumbledore to give it one more shot.

There's nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

or place so much importance on preventing Voldemort from hearing it in its entirety?
Tactics: you don't understand them.

Voldemort wants the full prophecy. There's only one place to get it. That means that, so long as Voldemort doesn't know the prophecy in it's entirety, he will HAVE to go to the Ministry of Magic at some point. He has to. There is no other way. That means that Dumbledore can have at least one thing he can count on in regards to Voldemort's movements: Voldemort must, at some point, come here.
Of course I've read the books, and I haven't replaced anything I've forgotten. I just named two instances of True Prophecies so I have no idea where you're going with that.

I'll ask you this: if Dumbledore had no faith in prophecy and was on the verge of removing Divination from the curriculum why would a prophecy (which he would should believe to be worthless) prompt him to change his mind?

Also on an unrelated note, would you mind clearing up a spot in your Inbox. I have something unrelated I'd like to run past you.
 

nairit

Well-Known Member
#42
Also, can we move this prophecy discussion to another thread? I would like DragonBard to get what he wants, i.e., advice on how to write a better story. This really doesn't affect his story since, as an author, he can change the rules however he likes.

@DragonBard, I remember reading your story when I first started fanfiction. The best advise ( and this is a suggestion - not orders) I can give you is this : don't write a story with idea that boohooo wizards are racist and speciest in general, they are dumb and illogical.

Consider the fact that Wizards did invite all species to be on the same forum but had to remove them from the Beings list because they couldn't suppress their base characteristics. Now, you can argue that this was stacked against the other species from the start, or that the judges were biased or any number of arguments but there is a reason that most of the other species are considered beasts.

Also, saying that wizards are behind muggles and are dumb because they don't keep up with technology and stuff like that - doesn't really matter. You're writing a story where magic is the strongest power in the universe. If you want to argue over the semantics of government or the backwardness of the magical world or that kind of stuff then write a story with that as the major plot. This is a complex idea that deserves to be handled carefully, better to just not deal with that and focus on Harry doing impossible shit with magic and having fun with it.

I have always felt that if you are dealing with a super-powered character then it doesn't mean that you have to give Voldemort a death-star. From what we have seen in canon, after Dumbledore's death, Voldemort was able to bring down the government in a matter of weeks. DH shows us just how terrifying he is. Just speaking his name would bring down the SS upon you. Giving Voldemort the Death Stick would really be all you need to do to make him nigh-unstoppable. He can already do so much shit with just canon magic that giving him more power would mean that you have to give Dumbledore more power as well.

This story really would only work if you dealt with Harry's powers as a equalizer instead of making him top-dog. Sure, Harry has the potential to be the next Merlin and blow up mountains and shit like that but right now he's just discovering what he can do. By 7th year he should be barely able to start breaking boundaries. Don't give Harry too much power too fast, because then that would be a curbstomp.

Have Harry explore his magic, have fun with it , have that wonder with it that we did when we first started reading the books. Instead of focusing on the power aspect and what that means for the world at large, focus instead on Harry discovering the limits of canon HP magic and his own powers. Make him relate the two. You've already given him intelligence and motivation. Don't make him into college student; let him be 11 and have fun.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#43
The more I think about it, the more I want to see Hermione as a rival. I mean a serious one, who doesn't like 'Potter,' because he's obviously up to something.

I've been reading fics lately where Harry outperforms Hermione in some area or another and she gets defensive, angry, and obviously jealous over his outperforming her. And to be honest, I really like it. I'm not talking about bashing her. I don't even really think this is out of character for her. I just really like it when Hermione gets condescending and self-righteous without due cause, and it's obvious that she's just jealous of Harry. It's a much more interesting dynamic than what most of fanfiction has going for her, and I have yet to actually find a fic where Hermione starts out like that and only becomes an (eventual) tsundere friend after a few years at school.

I'd love to see a dynamic where Harry's friends are the twins and Luna, and Harry's 'enemies' are Hermione and Malfoy. Of course, as the series gets darker and more serious, Hermione slowly starts coming around to his side, even as Malfoy starts slipping further and further into the Death Eater Youth side of the Force.

As a bonus, Ron doesn't really figure into this equation at all. He's just Fred and George's younger, considerably more inept brother that no one really takes seriously and never does anything important. So Ron doesn't even really have to be a character. His spot is a vacancy that can be used to increase the characterization of others, like Luna or possibly Neville.
 
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