TYPE MOON/TV crossovers.

[trevelyan1983]

I'm thinking of supernatural series like, say, BtVS, mainly. But stuff like Constantine or Hellboy or Blade might be interesting to discuss, just to see if anything else can coexist with Nasu's rules, concepts, marbles, phantasms and Types.

First, some background:

I'll check it out, thanks.

Awww. I read this when it was firs recc'd, it's good. But I'm on such an F/SN kick at the minute, I misread the quote as Xander/Ilya.

Isn't it sad? :blue:

Now I want a Xander/Archerko fic, but most likely it'll never happen. Damn you for bringing it up! :angry: :angry: :angry:

I said:

There are too few Buffy/Fate crossovers.á We who love both must rectify this tragic situation.

So then spooky said "Wait, how would that work?" And MyLittlePwnies said "Wait, how would that work?"

I'm glad you asked.

Vampires existing in both but being so much more awesome in Type-Moon was something I couldn't quite resolve, until recently. Here's what I'm thinking:

Dead Apostles, True Ancestors and Dead Apostle Ancestors all originate from Gaia, with a template based on Crimson Moon. BtVS Vampires don't. They're the result of demonic blood corrupting a human, who became the first Vampire. Demons exist in the Nasuverse, so that specific type of Vamp could probably be an experiment by them to try and gain physical bodies and power without the usual drawbacks.

IE, rather than borrow some living dood's body, they mix blood, kill the human and then possess the corpse completely. They're not as powerful as The 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors, but they're guaranteed to turn without any Ghouls or Living Dead - and they tend to approach Rank E for their stats. Even better, they don't have the concept of death unless you stab them in the heart or cut their heads off.

Also, Watcher's Council? Totally part of the Mage's Association. Probably founding members of it. Mainly because a Giles who's owning vampires in the face with thaumaturgy would be awesome. And Giles, Ethan and the other kiddies having a shared Reality Marble that Eyghon uses to fuck with them would also float my boat.

Anyway, as for crossovers? You could use Zelretch, or take a page from Kieran's Bleached White. I was considering totally turning Halloween on it's head, having Kieran's version of the crew interfere and give us Akiha!Willow, EMIYA!Xander and Bazett!Buffy. While borrowing several powerful artifacts that would give Ilya a more regular power supply.

See? Everbody wins. Except the people who are completely fed-up of YAHF. Which is most of us. But the basic approach to melding the two settings seems sound.

So much so, that I'd probably approach it from the angle of Giles teaching the core Scoobies some basic thaumaturgy, which reveals Willow's incredible aptitude [would she be Rin-type or Aoko-type? Many circuits or one circuit?] And Xander has a Reality Marble. No, seriously. One thing that only he can do, which forms the basis of his being kinda useful. I'm leaning towards some kinda elemental affinity he adds to stuff, like Roa's original power. Or beast materialization, mixing elements of Nrvnsqr and Merem.

Thoughts? Opinions? Reasons why this would never work in the Nasuverse?

 

[Xon]

The Watcher's Council(new or old) are too fucking incompetent to part of something like the Mage's Association.

Also the 'Powers that Be' include such wonders as Wolfram & Hart and use a "balance daemon" (aka status quo) as a messenger boy when interacting with the "good guys". Except they cause more destruction and lose of human life by keeping it secret, on the Slayer is is practically a personality wipe on the poor girl infected with it, and is a virtual death sentance.

 

[shioran toushin]

For Xander i was thinking something to do whith sacrifice, and the opposite of
shiki's talent, likely the recreation of aspects/concepts for a price, that being a
fragment of his life, or something like that

 

[spooky316]

Actually, I really like how this sounds so far. Especially the different vamp explanations.

And Xander has a Reality Marble. No, seriously. One thing that only he can do, which forms the basis of his being kinda useful. I'm leaning towards some kinda elemental affinity he adds to stuff, like Roa's original power.

If you do the elemental affinity one, fire might work since he lit that book up just by reading it.

 

[trevelyan1983]

The Watcher's Council(new or old) are too fucking incompetent to part of something like the Mage's Association.

Also the 'Powers that Be' include such wonders as Wolfram & Hart and use a "balance daemon" (aka status quo) as a messenger boy when interacting with the "good guys". Except they cause more destruction and lose of human life by keeping it secret, on the Slayer is is practically a personality wipe on the poor girl infected with it, and is a virtual death sentance.

As far as the Watchers and the Mages, I think they have a strong overlap on goals, on ethically questionable practices, and a very grey take on morality in general. The Watcher's were stated to have a hereditary system in place, and the Mage's Association must have one, because of the Magic Crest inheritance that all magical families use.

That the Mage's Association has the more competent member pool doesn't invalidate the possibility of their having roots in the Watcher's Council. And if you judge a group by their enemies? The Watcher's have Vampires and some Demonic species to contend with. The Clock Tower has The Burial Agency and the Dead Apostle Ancestors.

<s>I know which frightens me more.</s> I think that sums things up well enough.

On the issue of the PTB, I hadn't considered them too much. If anyone else has suggestions about their likely place or classification within Nasu-verse rules, I'd be glad to hear it. Maybe they're a particularly nasty sect of Fae - Merlin and Morgan had to come from somewhere, after all.

Edit: Wait! I knew there was something else! Those dark men who spirit-raped the First Slayer? Fucking mages! Well, more like Caster-level magicians from the Age of Gods, but you get what I mean, right?

 

[spooky316]

Edit: Wait! I knew there was something else! Those dark men who spirit-raped the First Slayer? Fucking mages! Well, more like Caster-level magicians from the Age of Gods, but you get what I mean, right?

You'd think if they were Caster level mages they'd be able to make something stronger than the Slayer.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Edit: Wait!? I knew there was something else!? Those dark men who spirit-raped the First Slayer?? Fucking mages!? Well, more like Caster-level magicians from the Age of Gods, but you get what I mean, right?

You'd think if they were Caster level mages they'd be able to make something stronger than the Slayer.

I'm going to cut them some slack - they had to tie it to a specific bloodline and keep it going perpetually, and they had to keep it's stats within the upper limit of the human body, as well as draining only enough mana from the host to function properly, as well as not emptying said host during combat. Then there's the regen, Presence Concealment, Instinct and Eternal Arms Mastery.

I mean, even Medea couldn't min-max her created Servant that accurately.

 

[Prince Charon]

Even better, they don't have the concept of death unless you stab them in the heart or cut their heads off.

... or set them on fire, or expose them to sunlight (which sets them on fire) or expose them to enough holy water (e.g. Helpless).

 

[trevelyan1983]

Even better, they don't have the concept of death unless you stab them in the heart or cut their heads off.

... or set them on fire, or expose them to sunlight (which sets them on fire) or expose them to enough holy water (e.g. Helpless).

FFFFFFFFF-

I knew I'd missed something obvious. Well, it's not like Nasuverse vampires sunbathe either, so there's some level of equivalence. Maybe.

As for Holy Water, BtVS vamps are all younger than the concept of 'sacred water of purification' so they can't resist it. Someone as old as Kakistos, on the other hand . . .

 

[Prince Charon]

Even better, they don't have the concept of death unless you stab them in the heart or cut their heads off.

... or set them on fire, or expose them to sunlight (which sets them on fire) or expose them to enough holy water (e.g. Helpless).

FFFFFFFFF-

I knew I'd missed something obvious. Well, it's not like Nasuverse vampires sunbathe either, so there's some level of equivalence. Maybe.

As for Holy Water, BtVS vamps are all younger than the concept of 'sacred water of purification' so they can't resist it. Someone as old as Kakistos, on the other hand . . .

I'm quite certain that the concept of 'sacred water of purification' greatly predates christianity, almost certainly enough to effect Kakistos.

 

[trevelyan1983]

As for Holy Water, BtVS vamps are all younger than the concept of 'sacred water of purification'? so they can't resist it.? Someone as old as Kakistos, on the other hand . . .

I'm quite certain that the concept of 'sacred water of purification' greatly predates christianity, almost certainly enough to effect Kakistos.

All the better, Charon. Not that it got used against the older Vamps like The Master and Kakistos, of course.

 

[Xon]

Even better, they don't have the concept of death unless you stab them in the heart or cut their heads off.

... or set them on fire, or expose them to sunlight (which sets them on fire) or expose them to enough holy water (e.g. Helpless).

or break thier neck and leave them a quadriplegic for months possibly years.

 

[trevelyan1983]

That happened to Spike, as I'm sure you recall.

1) It didn't kill him.

2) He got better.

3) He then faked the injury for a while.

While it's not on par with Arcueid regenerating from seventeen pieces of herself, it's certainly better than I could do with a spinal injury.

Not that it killed him, either, which is what the original statement said.

 

[Xon]

That happened to Spike, as I'm sure you recall.

1) It didn't kill him.

So? BtVS Vampires really aren't much more durable than a human body once you get past they don't need thier internal organs beyond an intact central nervous system(tazers work against them) and thier heart.

Modern weapons means BtVS vampires will die trivially when usec correctly (ie see Angel, where they use a firearms and can hit the broadside of a barn.). Anything physically strong enough to rip a human in half would be functionally immune to them.

2) He got better.

3) He then faked the injury for a while.

After using a virtually unreproducable plot device to actually heal in a reasonable timespan. And it is only because Buffy is a tactical and strategical moron that Spike even survived.

While it's not on par with Arcueid regenerating from seventeen pieces of herself, it's certainly better than I could do with a spinal injury.

For supernatural critters, it simply isn't impressive. Especially considering the ease at which a BtVS can recieve those injuries.

Not that it killed him, either, which is what the original statement said.

It is a point about the glaring weaknesses of BtVS's vampires.

 

[yorath]

yeah but BtVS vamps aren't all that impressive. they have 2 things going for them, they have the easiest time inflitrateing Human Society and they're the freaking Roaches of the demon world.

it doesn't help that outside of moments of tactical brilliance(inspired plans for dealing with the big bad and being able to rally and train green troops to make a rather decent stand agaisnt a hord of vamps) the Scoobs are morons. and this isn't just limited to Buff. I mean they're primary opponet are Vamps, demons that have a huge ammount of humanoid weaknesses, and yet 4 scoobs can't hold their own against ONE fledge(where as it's been shown that Xan, the supposed weakest of hte lot has held off 2 at once before and done well till he got grappled and arm broken and then a shelf dumped on him).

now I know getting in and getting that heart staked is damned hard. there's a reason that the vamp hunters in the books generally came in dureing hte day with a mallet and stake to do the job. but seriously, Vamp regeneration is impressive but it isn't instantanous. so broken bones(shins, collarbones, knees) will seriously mess a vamp up and heck if even 2 of the scoobs carried super soakers filled wiht Holy Water they have the ability to seriously maim the vamp they're hunting and make the "hunters" job that much easier to pull off.

so yeah in the grand scheme btvs vamps aren't all that impressive. until you take into consideration they make damned near perfect muscle and quickly replinishing canon fodder. they're sorta the 'zerg rush' of the demon world. and as such well the old saw of "Quanitity haveing a Quality all it's own." saddly holds true.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Xon . . . didn't I already say that BtVS vampires suck? I'm sure I did. Well, regardless, they fact that they exist and they suck was one of the difficulties in putting the Nasu-verse in the same world as Buffy and the rest. Because Nasu's vampires are most assuredly awesome.

So, what next? I've tried to justify the existence of both by giving them different origins and different levels of power and ability. Evidently that hasn't worked for you. Have you a better suggestion?

 

[biigoh]

Actually, Vampires in BtVS do suck. And it's acknowledged that they do indeed suck in the setting (re: Illyria, where she talks about the vampires and the two half-breeds; Angel and Spike).

The problem is that the big bads got taken out or they moved off to better settings; which allowed the weaker demons and such to prosper and breed like roaches along with humanity.

The better question is to ask... what happened to the original big bads of the BtVS setting. Because I suspect that at full power, Illyria would have been a bitch to fight. And she's noted as just a single member of her race. Think about that, an entire -race- of Illyria running about in full power and not stuck in a human body with dropping power levels.

 

[yorath]

if memory serves, the others still on this plane like big blue are all sealed in the Deeper Well(which might technically still remove them from the earth plane) or of course in various hell diminsions out there. if you want more detailed than that, I guess that's where fanon comes in.

 

[biigoh]

Oh... those are the dead who fell and had their energies/essence drained into the jewels in their coffins. They're basically stored to prevent some jackasses from reawakening them.

Also, note that the Wolf Ram and Hart is/are considered -weak- by the other Old Ones.

The others, such as the various Powers that Be, evacuated to other reality. Not that some of them can be considered 'good' by human standards.

 

[yorath]

yeah well big blue was stored the same way and her followers somehow had W&H get ahold of her. so I assume that the ones in the Deeper Well are the same, either give them a new body to powerdump the jewel into, or use the jewel to activate the old one.

 

[biigoh]

There was prophecy involved. And it wasn't her followers what did it...

 

[trevelyan1983]

I've been watching season one of Buffy this weekend, and I have come to the conclusion that Buffy definitely has Instinct. She's incredibly good at feeling out her surroundings and how to proceed in a fight - reminds me muchly of Saber falling down some stairs in order to avoid Tsubame Gaeshi.