Naruto Uchiha Obito

[ankokudaishogun]

Madara was much more relatable than Obito: world was hell and his one single glimmer of HOPE for the future got crushed right after it got a chance to shine. Little of what he did was directly about Izuna: his brother's death was just the second-last nail in the hope he had for the world. Hashirama choosing to kill himself gave him precious little new hope, that became Konoha... hope murdered by Tobirama.

Obito decided that world was hell because Rin died. Not even "because Kakashi was forced to kill Rin", which would have been slightly more understandable, but the simple fact Rin died. Sure, brainwashing and all, but that's even less relatable

 

[13ry4n]

Madara didn't freak out cuz of Tobirama he freaked out because the village chose Hashirama over him and even IF it was Tobirama's fault, his actions after render him completely unlikable and justify Tobirama's paranoia about the Uchiha clan.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Madara didn't WANT to be Hokage.
It was, in my opinion, TOBIRAMA de facto imposing "democracy" in a situation where the Senju had both more clan members AND the support of most Uchiha. Madara is perfectly aware there is no Uchiha who can compete with Tobirama except himself, and next to nobody is ever going to vote him. And that's how the Senju, especially once Hashirama dies and cannot stop them from acting on centuries long deep seethed resentments(even subconsciously), are going to sieze power and use it against the Uchiha.

 

[13ry4n]

Except Tobirama didn't act on those prejudacises he gave the Uchiha clan the responsibility of policing the civilian populace. This is AFTER Madara had flipped his shit. Hell he even spoke fondly of an Uchiha he had worked with in the past showing whatever his prejudacises he might have he can look past them. Like I said before Madara's concerns may have been valid but that doesn't justify his actions nor does it make him any more likable.

 

[Altered Nova]

I think Madara would have been justified in abandoning Konoha, he saw the writing on the wall that without Hashirama the Senju and the their allied clans like the Shimura were going to slowly seize all the power in Konoha and reduce the Uchiha to their guard dogs, and his clan refused to heed his warnings and thought him only a warmongering fool who wanted to rekindle old grudges.

The problem is that Madara's paranoia may well have been a self-fulfilling prophecy. Attacking Konoha crossed the line and destroyed any sympathy I had built up for him, he was literally spitting on his own dream and trying to kill the very same precious people he sacrificed so much to protect. And it certainly didn't help the Uchiha's reputation with the village. Perhaps the animosity that led to their segregation and eventual coup attempt would never have come to be if Madara hadn't cemented the belief of "Uchiha = powerful bipolar lunatics" in everyone else's minds. That dude seriously just totally lost his marbles after his clan rejected him.

 

[13ry4n]

The Uchiha's segregation was self inflicted. They got all pissy because somebody suggested that an Uchiha might've been controlling the Kyuubi. And wouldn't cha know it turned out the Kyuubi was being controlled by an Uchiha!

 

[Altered Nova]

Uh what? According to Obito and Orochimaru, the Uchiha segregation began shortly after Madara's failed attempt to destroy Konoha, when Tobirama assigned them control of the military police as a ploy to keep them out of government affairs and to keep them grouped together to make keeping an eye on them easier. Tobirama even had a bunch of ANBU watching over the clan - Baku, Tora and Ushi were their code names, according to page 186 of my copy of the Third Databook.

Also according to the Third databook, page 194:

"...After losing the fight for power, Madara went rogue. And his threat of revenge bred fear among the higher-ups over the existence of the Uchiha. Furthermore, the suspicion and dread toward this clan was cemented with the attack of the Nine Tails."

So yeah, Madara turned the village against his own clan. His paranoia was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The anti-Uchiha sentiments started at Madara's rebellion, not the Kyuubi attack - the Kyuubi attack just made them worse.

Huh, here's another very interesting tidbit from page 186 of the Third Databook: "Uchiha Setsuna - Police Force - An Uchiha clan shinobi who had doubts about the Second Hokage. He planned to reclaim power from the Senju clan."

So Fugaku's coup may not have been the first coup attempted by the Uchiha clan. I wonder how far along Setsuna's rebellion got and whether it was shut down by the village or abandoned before the village found out about it.

Edit: According to Tobirama, chapter 619: "So they even tried to organize a coup d'etat. I was expecting them to do something like that sooner or later. There were some rebellious elements that secretly followed Madara's will."

Presumably Tobirama is referring to Setsuna. So I guess the village did find out about his plans, but he didn't have enough support in the clan for open rebellion.

 

[Banach87]

The Uchiha's segregation was self inflicted. They got all pissy because somebody suggested that an Uchiha might've been controlling the Kyuubi. And wouldn't cha know it turned out the Kyuubi was being controlled by an Uchiha!

Do you have a reference for this? I thought it was Tobirama that put them in what used to be a prison or something like that?

 

[Altered Nova]

The Uchiha's segregation was self inflicted. They got all pissy because somebody suggested that an Uchiha might've been controlling the Kyuubi. And wouldn't cha know it turned out the Kyuubi was being controlled by an Uchiha!

Do you have a reference for this? I thought it was Tobirama that put them in what used to be a prison or something like that?

You are right about that. Orochimaru, chapter 619: "Under the pretext that they would supervise criminals you created the police headquarters in the same place as the prison... succeeding in bluntly chasing them away to the outskirts of the village. This also promoted the Madara sympathizers."

So yeah, Tobirama banished the Uchiha to the edge of the village, while simultaneously giving them a job that would make them disliked by the rest of the village, all so he could make them easier to watch and make it harder for them to get promoted in government positions. And he was so unsubtle about it (making them live next to the prison for Pete's sake) that the rest of the Uchiha starting catching on that maybe Madara was right about the Senju and the Madara sympathizers became more popular.

Also Hashirama right after this revelation: "Tobirama, I told you so many times not to persecute the Uchiha!"

So persecuting the Uchiha was something Tobirama did so often that his brother frequently told him off for it. A guy like that becoming Hokage, makes the Uchiha plotting a rebellion seem a bit more understandable doesn't it? (not saying they were right to do so, just saying I get their resentment towards Konoha.)

 

[13ry4n]

Yes. According to Orochimaru and Obito the Uchiha were descrimanted against. Two characters who I'm not exactly eager to take at their word.

 

[Altered Nova]

Obito I will grant you is not a reliable source on this subject, as he was telling that story specifically to manipulate Sasuke. But Orochimaru had no such ulterior motive and he made that statement in the presence of the Third and Fourth Hokage, both of whom would obviously also know the truth about Uchiha-Konoha relations and neither of whom disagreed with him. Tobirama himself didn't even deny the charge of discriminating against the Uchiha, he just argued that his actions were necessary because the Uchiha are such "possessed by evil" troublemakers. Hell, fucking Hashirama outright says that Tobirama repeatedly persecuted the Uchiha!

 

[nixofcyzerra]

To be fair, Tobimara was dealing with a clan with a serious genetic disposition towards insanity, and he had the safety of all of Konoha to think about.

It wasn't the best solution, but I'm struggling to think of a better action I could have taken had I been in his shoes.

 

[Banach87]

To be fair, Tobimara was dealing with a clan with a serious genetic disposition towards insanity, and he had the safety of all of Konoha to think about.

It wasn't the best solution, but I'm struggling to think of a better action I could have taken had I been in his shoes.

Well, for one he could have been a little more subtle with the whole thing. Maybe just assign police duty and see where it goes from there.

But honestly I feel like the "Uchiha have all messed up brains" is bit of a cop-out to make Tobirama's actions reasonable. Seriously, had Kishi fleshed out his characters a little more such an excuse would have been unnecessary.

 

[Altered Nova]

Well, if the problem is that you are worried about rebellious Madara sympathizers, then blatantly discriminating against the Uchiha and giving them reason to believe that Madara was right is obviously not the answer. Too bad that's exactly what Tobirama did.

If the problem is that you are worried about a clan with a genetic disposition towards insanity that's triggered by grief and despair, then giving them a job that will keep them in the village and away from the battlefield is actually not a bad idea. But banishing them to the edge of the village, next to a friggin' prison, for the purpose of segregating them from the rest of the village and making it easier for the ANBU to watch them... that's blatant, idiotic discrimination, and it turned much of the clan (including Setsuna) against the village.

So yeah, I guess I agree with Banach87. Assign them police duty and see where it goes. I'd probably also not make policing exclusively an Uchiha job. I'd make it a village-wide organization, but put the Uchiha in charge. That way they would still be working frequently with non-Uchiha, help keep them connected with other villagers and help mitigate the problems Orochimaru mentioned of how police tend to get big heads and how the policed population tends to dislike the police.

Maybe also implement mandatory grief counseling for combat veterans and regular psychological exams for active shinobi to try and catch any Uchiha who may be in the early stages of Sharingan-induced supervillainy. And mandatory for everyone, since those problems aren't unique to people with magic eyeballs and we don't want to make it look like the Uchiha are being singled out.

I also agree that "the Uchiha all have messed up brains" is a cop-out. Itachi and Shisui went through ordeals just as bad, if not worse, than Obito and Madara did and neither of them went insane with hatred. And Sasuke survived his clan being slaughtered and a mind rape and he *was* recovering. It took a second mind rape to push him over the edge.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Itachi was far from sane.
Shisui, otherwise, was perfectly sane. And the Uchihas being prone to going bonkers was news to OROCHIMARU.
Basically, everything points to Tobirama exaggerating. Uchiha in the Warring Clans\early Konoha MIGHT have been more prone to mental breakdown than the average ninja, but that was most likely more because the shitty age they were living than anything else.

 

[Banach87]

Itachi was far from sane.
Shisui, otherwise, was perfectly sane. And the Uchihas being prone to going bonkers was news to OROCHIMARU.

I don't think Shisui was any more sane than Itachi: Both made terrible decisions when it came to the things they cared the most about: Itachi with Sasuke and Shisui with his suicide (seriously, he knows that all this Uchiha/Leaf tension is hanging on both his and Itachi's shoulders and the best course of action he can think of is suicide? Even when Danzo stole an eye, I think there were infinitely many different paths better than the one he chose).

But then again we know next to nothing about Shisui as a person, so whatever.

Basically, everything points to Tobirama exaggerating. Uchiha in the Warring Clans\early Konoha MIGHT have been more prone to mental breakdown than the average ninja, but that was most likely more because the shitty age they were living than anything else.

I think, from a storytelling perspective, this Uchiha brain thing was introduced to explain why Sasuke, Obito and Madara made such idiotic decisions that went against everything we had seen of them so far (Kage-Summit, Everything prior to series start and the attack on the Leaf respectively). This of course is used then to justify Tobirama's decision.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Shisui's best course of action was mind-controlling the leaders of his clan in not revolting. He had Itachi suicide him when he lost his eye to Danzou: giving his other eye to the person he trusted most and at the same time giving said person a quite powerful power-up in the Mangekyō seems a reasonable course of action given the circumstances.

I think, from a storytelling perspective, this Uchiha brain thing was introduced to explain why Sasuke, Obito and Madara made such idiotic decisions that went against everything we had seen of them so far

I guess it's easier than explain people DO have mental breakdowns that cause them act out of character.
And, again: of the Uchiha we have seen under the curse of hatred, only Obito went exceedingly nuts too easily.