4th Ed

[daniel_gudman]

So. The Fourth Edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is coming out in a few weeks.

How does 4th Ed make you feel?

Also, who's heard what?

 

[lord geryon]

4th Ed, from everything I've heard, is an MMO on paper.

No more wargame ancestry.

I'm a sad panda.

 

[Lord of Bones]

4th Ed, from everything I've heard, is an MMO on paper.

No more wargame ancestry.

I'm a sad panda.

They murdered D&D. It's not even D&D anymore.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Well... I've heard it's going in the same directions as 3 and 3.5. Maybe you hated them cuz you're old school, but it's true they basically saved the market.

I remember when 3 came out, and it was just so different, and I thought, "man, this sucks, they changed everything."

Now I look back at 2nd ed and think "THAC0? WTF? What's with all these weird saves?"

Yeah, it's gonna be different, but different can be good. And I think the d20 concept was very positive, for the game and for the business.

I gotta say that I think D&D has gotten better over the years, not worse.

 

[lord geryon]

No, 3.5 stayed true to the wargame heritage. I like 3.5.

4th doesn't stay true to the roots of the game, and I hates it. :rant:

 

[Mereo Flere]

First character I'm making is a Dragonborn Paladin, which totally doesn't get screwed out of his powers anymore for acting out of alignment.

 

[Alzrius]

From what I've read, and what I've heard, I don't like 4E at all.

That says something, considering that I'm the sort of player who should like it a lot. My main activity when role-playing is killing things. I enjoy crunching stats. I like mix-maxing and powergaming (though more for the intellectual challenge than actually playing that way). 4E supports all of these things a lot...and yet, I hate it.

I made a post over on my favorite forums made this post that probably sums it up the best:

4E is supposed to be the "more fun" edition. And that's pretty much my whole problem with it.

I could go on about things like the crippled alignment system, the near-total dearth of fluff or the utterly nerfed mechanics. But the basic complaint I have is, whereas 3.X was built under the "options, not restrictions" credo, 4E is the "restrictions in the name of FUN" edition.

The marketing has been very clear on this. 4E has been extensively worked and playtested because the designers know what's fun and what isn't, and have thrown out everything that hinders the players getting to this goal. Restrictions have been gleefully implemented so as to better funnel players to this end. Except, as many people have noted, that's what's ruining it for a lot of people.

3.X was relatively broad in what it could do; 4E has sacrificed that to do one specific game-style very well. People who don't play D&D in that style, however, are pretty much out of luck.

Add in to that a lot of the other, related things I don't like (the design philosophy of deliberately holding back popular things to make supplements feel like necessities, the D&DI, the restriction-happy GSL) and it should be easy to see why I'm not at all interested in 4E.

 

[Cypher3au]

I've had a look at the Player's Handbook. Interesting, but they haven't seen fit to include the Barbarian, Druid, Monk, Bard, or Sorcerer. I know they're at least planning to bring out rules for the first three, but they may have decided to remove the last two or replace them with the Warlock and Warlord.

Either way, I'm not a completely happy camper, but I'll hold off on final judgement until I take the new system for a spin.

 

[Christopher Robin]

I don't know about Bard, but Sorcerer is almost certainly in the PHB2.

And the one thing I don't like is the use of minis, and that's because I'm more likely to play online.

 

[Lord of Bones]

The nerfing of the spellcaster classes leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Guess what? No defensive magic, no Conjurations, no Save-or-dies, no Necromancy...

And the high-end monsters are...strange. Orcus has around 1k (or more) hp yet his strongest non-melee attack deals 2d12 + Cha mod damage.

To say nothing of the screwing of the fiends. The yugoloths - the true ringleaders of the Blood War and nominal creator of the Baatezu and Tanar'ri - are now demons. The Tanar'ri have lost the succubus (what happens to Lynkhab? Malcanthet? Graz'zt? Noticula?). All the Baatezu are now fallen angels - which doesn't make sense given that previous editions had Mephistopheles/Molikroth hating Triel/Baalzebul because Triel was not a true baatezu (he was a fallen angel).

What happened to the other deities? Why is Bane - who is worshiped only in Faerun and Ravenloft - suddenly the 'default' deity of tyranny? Most of the other deities (Falazure, Gruumsh, the 'real-world' pantheons) have disappeared into thin air.

There are also level limits imposed - you stop playing at 30th level, plus the alignment system sucks.

AND THEY TOOK AWAY THE ERINYES, DAMMIT!

EDIT: Paizo (of Dragon Magazine fame) is setting up a revised 3E ruleset, available at their site. It un-nerfs the fighter, among others.

 

[Cornuthaum]

4e is D&D trying to be like World of Warcraft and Exalted at the same time and bitterly, totally freeping FAILING at it.

 

[Mereo Flere]

They murdered D&D. It's not even D&D anymore.

Y'know, there aren't many times I get to link to 8 Bit Theatre around here.

But this is too good a time to not to do so now.

 

[Lord of Bones]

They murdered D&D. It's not even D&D anymore.

Y'know, there aren't many times I get to link to 8 Bit Theatre around here.

But this is too good a time to not to do so now.

Compare 1e, 2e and 3e to 4e. Compare the alignment rules, the politics of the Outer planes, the spells, the levels and the amount of flavor.

Now look at 4e.

4e is a good game - if you don't consider it D&D.

 

[Mereo Flere]

Compare 1e, 2e and 3e to 4e. Compare the alignment rules, the politics of the Outer planes, the spells, the levels and the amount of flavor.

Now look at 4e.

4e is a good game - if you don't consider it D&D.

Y'know what the best part is?

It's right there on that page I linked.

It feels like WotC is an evil, mustache twirling villain in all this, it really does. "So, you like DnD but not enough to buy the miniatures? WELL NOW YOU HAVE TO! MWAHAHAHAHA!" Then they burn down an orphanage and drown a puppy. DnD has become a miniatures game, just as it was all those years ago when it was called Chainmail. Additionally, this is the only similarity I can draw between 4th ed and any previous edition. With the exception that they all contain elves and dwarves, there is no similarity anymore. None. Also the powers aren't as customizable as I would have wanted. Also my favorite classes were always bards and barbarians. WHOOPS! I guess that's my fault.

But here's the thing. None of that matters. It's fun.

I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you. It's definitely different from the other editions.

Yet - that's not really what I care about.

 

[lord geryon]

I downloaded the PHB, DMG, and MM for 4th Ed just to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass.

Is 4th Ed a fun game? Possibly, I haven't played it and probably won't.

Is it D&D? No, it is not.

See, that's the difference. It is a game, and had WotC tried to pass it off as some other game, people wouldn't have reacted so strongly. But, they didn't. They tried to call it D&D, and it obviously ISN'T D&D.

I mean, for fuck's sake, there isn't even a Wish spell anymore.

Nor are there actually spells anymore either. It's powers or rituals. Wtf, man.

Wizards are completely nerfed. Their great advantage over everyone else, versatility, is gone when EVERY class has almost as many abilities as they have.

Paladins can actually force a creature to attack them, ignoring, and even making enemies blind, to everyone but them.

 

[Vexarian]

I downloaded the PHB, DMG, and MM for 4th Ed just to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass.

Is 4th Ed a fun game? Possibly, I haven't played it and probably won't.

Is it D&D? No, it is not.

See, that's the difference. It is a game, and had WotC tried to pass it off as some other game, people wouldn't have reacted so strongly. But, they didn't. They tried to call it D&D, and it obviously ISN'T D&D.

I mean, for fuck's sake, there isn't even a Wish spell anymore.

Nor are there actually spells anymore either. It's powers or rituals. Wtf, man.

Wizards are completely nerfed. Their great advantage over everyone else, versatility, is gone when EVERY class has almost as many abilities as they have.

Paladins can actually force a creature to attack them, ignoring, and even making enemies blind, to everyone but them.

Now I know next to nothing about DnD.

But from what I know about classes in general. A Paladin is supposed to be a fusion of Warrior and Healer, with the disadvantage of being unable to heal en masse very well, and lacking in crowd control, making him a bad tank in most circumstances.

And what you just said, sounds an awful lot like crowd control, which plugs up their only real weakness.

What are Wish spells?

 

[lord geryon]

Yes, it IS crowd control. Hell, and that's only two of their abilites out of like... 30 or so. There's the things like 'swap positions with an ally' so that the paladin can continue tanking mobs that go after the squishy wizard, etc.

And Wish, directly from the 3.5 SRD:

Wish
Universal
Level:? Sor/Wiz 9
Components:? V, XP
Casting Time:? 1 standard action
Range:? See text
Target, Effect, or Area:? See text
Duration:? See text
Saving Throw:? See text
Spell Resistance:? Yes

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

? ? * Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
? ? * Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
? ? * Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if itÆs of a prohibited school.
? ? * Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if itÆs of a prohibited school.
? ? * Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
? ? * Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
? ? * Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
? ? * Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
? ? * Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
? ? * Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
? ? * Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
? ? * Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponentÆs successful save, a foeÆs successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friendÆs failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
Material Component

When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Note that You may try' clause... a Wish is virtually unlimited in it's ability. It is the 'classic' 9th level spell. 4th Ed lacking it? Complete and utter phail.

 

[lord geryon]

Omfg...

This is a direct quote from the beginning pages of the 4thED MM:

Role
A monsterÆs role describes its preferred combat tactics, much
as a character classÆs role suggests tactics for PCs. Monster
roles are: artillery, brute, controller, lurker, skirmisher,
and soldier. These roles are discussed in the Dungeon MasterÆs
Guide.
A monster might have the leader keyword in parentheses,
indicating that it grants some sort of boon to its allies in
combat, such as a beneficial aura.

That's virtually identical to WoW's system of elites and bosses.

Here is the mention of roles in the DMG, otherwise known as The Book On How To Do Nothing But Combat:

The key to designing interesting and varied groups of
monsters for an encounter lies in the monster roles:
artillery, brute, controller, lurker, minion, skirmisher,
and soldier. Each role has its own place in a typical
encounter. The role of every monster is given in a monster
entry at the top right of the creatureÆs statistics
block in the Monster Manual. Most combat encounters
involve groups of monsters occupying different roles. A
group of varied monsters makes for a more interesting
and challenging encounter than a group of identical
foes.

In the context of monster roles (here and elsewhere
in the game rules), the terms ôcontrollerö and
ôleaderö have meanings and applications that are different
from the class roles of controller and leader, as
described in Chapter 4 of the PlayerÆs Handbook.

Artillery

Artillery monsters excel at ranged combat. These
creatures rain arrows, explosive fireballs, and similar
attacks on the party from a distance. TheyÆre well protected
against ranged attacks, but more vulnerable in
melee. They often spread damage out over multiple
characters in an area.

Use artillery monsters in an encounter to hang
behind soldiers and brutes and rain damage down
on the characters from protected positions. Because
theyÆre more fragile than average monsters, they count
on being protected by a line of brutes or soldiers, or
skirmishers that help them to draw off attacks.

Brute

Brute monsters specialize in dealing damage in melee.
Brutes have relatively low defenses but high hit points.
They donÆt hit as often as other monsters, but they deal
a lot of damage when they hit. They donÆt move around
a lot, and theyÆre often big.

Use brutes in an encounter to threaten the party
while shielding other monsters with their great size
and imminent threat. Brutes are easy to run, so put
multiple brutes of the same kind in an encounter to
provide the baseline muscle for the monsters.

Controller

Controller monsters manipulate their enemies or the
battlefield to their advantage. They restrict enemy
options or inflict lasting conditions, alter terrain or
weather, or bend the minds of their adversaries.
Position controller monsters just behind a front line
of melee-focused monsters, and use them to attack
the PCs at short range with their control powers. Most
controllers can stand their ground in melee, so they
often wade right in beside the brutes and soldiers.
Controller monsters can be complex to run in numbers,
so limiting an encounter to one or two controllers
of the same type is usually a good idea.

Lurker

Lurker monsters have some ability that lets them avoid
attacks, whether by striking from hiding or by turning
into an invulnerable statue while regaining strength.
They usually deliver one devastating attack every few
rounds, while concentrating on defense in between.
Use lurkers as surprise additions to encounters
with other monsters or as sneaky assassins that circle
around the main action of a fight, darting in from time
to time with a well-timed strike. Lurkers study the
party while the player characters are busy handling
brutes and soldiers, gauging the PCsÆ weaknesses.

Minion

Sometimes you want monsters to come in droves
and go down just as fast. A fight against thirty orcs
is a grand cinematic battle. The players get to enjoy
carving through the mob like a knife through butter,
feeling confident and powerful. Unfortunately, the
mechanics of standard monsters make that difficult. If
you use a large number of monsters of a level similar
to the PCs, you overwhelm them. If you use a large
number of monsters of much lower level, you bore
them with creatures that have little chance of hurting
the PCs but take a lot of time to take down. On top of
that, keeping track of the actions of so many monsters
is a headache.

Minions are designed to serve as shock troops and
cannon fodder for other monsters (standard, elite, or
solo). Four minions are considered to be about the same
as a standard monster of their level. Minions are
designed to help fill out an encounter, but they go
down quickly.

A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of
damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that
doesnÆt require an attack roll (such as the paladinÆs
divine challenge or the fighterÆs cleave) destroys a minion.
If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals
damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage.

Use minions as melee combatants placed between
the PCs and back-rank artillery or controller monsters.

Skirmisher

Skirmisher monsters use mobility to threaten the
player characters. Their combat statistics define the
baseline for monsters, but their mobility is their defining
feature.

Use skirmishers as the mobile strikers in an
encounter, the creatures that move to attack vulnerable
PCs from the sides and rear. They often have
powers that let them dart in, attack, and retreat in
one action. Skirmishers like to fight alongside soldiers
and brutes because those monsters tend to stay in one
place and draw a lot of the partyÆs attention, giving the
skirmishers room to maneuver around this front line.

Soldier

Soldier monsters specialize in drawing the charactersÆ
attacks and defending other monsters. They have high
defenses and average hit points. Their attacks are
accurate, but they donÆt do exceptional damage. They
tend not to move around, and they often have powers
that hinder other creatures from moving around them.
Use soldiers in an encounter to keep the party in
place, preventing its members from attacking the
artillery or controller monsters behind the soldiers or
chasing after the skirmishers. Soldiers often have abilities
that allow them to work well together, so a group
of identical soldiers works well in an encounter with
other monsters.

Elite Monsters

Elite monsters are tougher than standard monsters
and constitute more of a threat than standard monsters
of their main role and level. An elite monster
counts as two monsters of its level. Elite monsters are
worth twice as many XP and are twice as dangerous.
Elite monsters make great ômini-bosses,ö allowing you
to add a tougher opponent to a mix of monsters without
creating an entirely new monster. A group of ogres
led by an elite ogre reduces the number of ogre figures
on the table without diminishing the encounterÆs level.

Solo Monsters

Solo monsters are specifically designed to appear as
single opponents against a group of PCs of the same
level. They function, in effect, as a group of monsters.
They have more hit points in order to absorb the
damage output of multiple PCs, and they deal more
damage in order to approximate the damage output of
a group of monsters.

A solo monster is worth the same amount of XP as
five monsters of its level. It provides the same level of
challenge as five monsters.

A solo monster might have tendencies that flavor it
toward the brute, soldier, skirmisher, lurker, artillery,
or controller role. Each type of chromatic dragon, for
example, leans toward a different role. Red dragons
have soldier tendencies, while blue dragons behave
much like artillery monsters. However, a solo monster
can never completely take on a different role, because
the roles are largely defined by how monsters interact
with other monsters in an encounter. Every solo monster
has to be able to stand and fight on its own.

Leader

ôLeaderö is not a stand-alone role. It is an additional
quality or subrole of some brutes, soldiers, skirmishers,
lurkers, artillery, and controllers.

Leaders are defined by their relationship to the
monsters under their command. A leader monster, like
a leader PC, grants bonuses and special abilities to its
followers, improving their attacks or defenses, providing
some healing, or enhancing their normal abilities.
Aside from one special ability to enhance its allies, a
leader functions as its primary role indicates.
Add a leader to an encounter with monsters that
gain the greatest benefit from the leaderÆs abilities. For
example, a leader that gives a defense bonus to nearby
creatures is a great leader for brutes, who have weak
defenses otherwise.

Just... lol.

Wtf, yo.

And, btw, what I said about the DMG is true. It virtually ignores everything BUT combat. Out of the whole book, a 17 page chapter is the only nod given to making the world be more interesting than a bunch of combat back to back.

And, it's called Noncombat Encounters. Like, they're saying, 'For those weird people that don't play games to beat the shit out of stuff, we decided to try and convert these heathens back to the Right Way of gore and treasure.' There's no mention of ROLEPLAYING as a means of solution in this chapter either. It's all challenges; skill tests, puzzles and traps.

Here's an example, ganked from page 76:

The Negotiation

The duke sits at the head of his banquet table. Gesturing
with a wine glass, he bids you to sit. ôIÆm told you have news
from the borderlands.ö

This skill challenge covers attempts to gain a favor or
assistance from a local leader or other authority figure.
The challenge might take only as long as a normal
conversation, or it could stretch on for days as the characters
perform tasks to earn the NPCÆs favor.

Setup: For the NPC to provide assistance, the PCs
need to convince him or her of their trustworthiness
and that their cause helps the NPC in some way.

Level: Equal to the level of the party.

Complexity: 3 (requires 8 successes before 4
failures).

Primary Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight.

Bluff (moderate DCs): You try to encourage the NPC
to aid your quest using false pretenses. Characters can
cooperate to aid a lead character using this skill.

Diplomacy (moderate DCs): You entreat the NPC for
aid in your quest. First success with this skill opens
up the use of the History skill (the NPC mentions an
event from the past that has significance to him).

Insight (moderate DCs): You empathize with the
NPC and use that knowledge to encourage assistance.
First success with this skill reveals that any use of the
Intimidate skill earns a failure.

History (easy DC): You make an insightful remark
about the significant event from the NPCÆs past. This
is available only after one character has gained a success
using the Diplomacy skill, and it can be used only
once in this way during the challenge.

Intimidate: The NPC refuses to be intimidated by
the PCs. Each use of this skill earns a failure.

Success: The NPC agrees to provide reasonable
assistance to the characters. This could include
treasure.

Failure: The characters are forced to act without
the NPCÆs assistance. They encounter more trouble,
which may be sent by the NPC out of anger or
antagonism.

See? No mention of roleplaying at frikkin' all. Skill tests. At if they roll good? Possibly treasure.

 

[Lord of Bones]

Some good news: Paizo's 3.75E remake has some big names agreeing to contribute to it, including SK Reynolds, Jeff Grubb, Wolfgang Baur, Monte Cook and Ed Greenwood.

 

[Belgarion213]

Well thank god for small favours. Bloody hell, 4E is looking worse as time goes on.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Hmm... as for the monster role things, I like the idea of automating the monster party generation, but... that's because it means I can spend more time on story.

"Noncombat encounters", huh? Well, it's cool that they're trying to define types, but... dice are a tool to make PCs paranoid.

The problem, as I see it, is that DnD is trying to be broadly appealing--to the WoW crowd, the videogamers. So it's DnD like a videogame. But... dice can't compete with computers at number-crunching.

DnD has always been a structure for playing pretend; The 3rd Ed DMG made a cute joke about roleplaying vs. rollplaying. Seems that DnD has decided to become rollplaying.

Will it be fun? Yeah, for a specific value of fun....

As I get older I'm moving towards the "less is more" paradigm. That's not the direction DnD is moving in.

 

[Scratx]

Any details on this 3.75 remake and where it may be hosted at or something?

 

[Alzrius]

Any details on this 3.75 remake and where it may be hosted at or something?

It's being written by Paizo Publishing. It's called the "Pathfinder RPG" (not to be confused with the monthly adventure/supplement book they're publishing now, also called Pathfinder).

The rules for the Pathfinder RPG are currently in an open-playtesting period. The current version available is the Alpha 3 release of the rules, and is available here. They encourage everyone using these rules to leave feedback on their forums.

In august of this year, a beta release of the rules will be released, and will be sold for a fee. And in August of 2009, the final product will be released, and all of their existing 3.5 products will be used in that system instead.

Personally, I'm liking what I'm reading of Pathfinder so far, but I think they might be going a tad overboard. They say they want to fix the major problems with 3E, but at this stage they seem to be making more changes than are necessary to do just that (in part, I blame this on their fan base; right now their forums are crowded with people making threads calling for whatever changes individuals think work better). However, it's still recognizably 3.5 in nature, which makes it FAR superior to the twisted abomination that is 4E.

I also want to mention Kobold Quarterly to people.

For those who don't know, Wolfgang Baur (who is a major name in D&D and d20) decided to answer the death of Dragon and Dungeon magazines with one of his own (and yeah, Dragon and Dungeon are e-magazines now, I know...it's still pretty much like they're dead). His magazine, Kobold Quarterly, is published in print and PDF format every three months, and is absolutely superb. If you miss the mags, you owe it to yourself to subscribe to this...it really does a good job of filling Dragon's void (not so much Dungeon, since KQ doesn't have adventures - Wolfgang has his Open Design project for that). Go to www.koboldquarterly.com right now and check it out. There's a poll there on if the magazine should convert to 4E or not. Please vote for it not to!

 

[Lord of Bones]

I just realized that demons are now elementals in 4e. Does that make Alzrius (who is essentially a fiendish fire elemental, based on his description in Hellbound) an elemental Lord like Kossuth and the Princes of Elemental Evil?

EDIT: Gameplay stops at 30th level. Greater deities are supposed to be 38th level and higher in 4e. 2e and 3e had Rhangaun at 33rd, Aumvor 32nd, Ioulaum 41st, Qysar Shoon VII 36th, Larloch 46th etc; and they are all liches.

What do you make of that?

 

[Alzrius]

I just realized that demons are now elementals in 4e. Does that make Alzrius (who is essentially a fiendish fire elemental, based on his description in Hellbound) an elemental Lord like Kossuth and the Princes of Elemental Evil?

Ugh, unfortunately it probably does. Demons now have "elemental" for their origin in their stat block, just like actual elementals. Hence, you could say that every demon lord is an elemental lord - even Orcus is called an elemental, you'll notice. It seems like all of the old terms and definitions have been completely redefined now.

Fuck, I hate this game. <_<

EDIT: Gameplay stops at 30th level. Greater deities are supposed to be 38th level and higher in 4e. 2e and 3e had Rhangaun at 33rd, Aumvor 32nd, Ioulaum 41st, Qysar Shoon VII 36th, Larloch 46th etc; and they are all liches.

What do you make of that?

As a nitpick, Ed Greenwood has said that he envisioned Larloch as being 46th level. However, the only stats we've ever seen for Larloch are in Lords of Darkness, where he's a wizard 20/Epic 12 (that was before the ELH was released - in that terminology he'd be a Wizard 32, most likely).

What I make of it is that - since 4E is reinstating the old 2E rule that characters can't gain more than 30 levels (except 4E doesn't seem to even be allowing the occasional exception like 2E did) - if they write 4E stats for those characters, they'll probably nerf them pretty badly down to level 30. I suppose there's a chance that they'll allow them to keep their exceptional levels, but I doubt it.

Yet more reasons why 4E sucks. I LIKED uber-epic levels.