4th Ed
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Lord of Bones said:
2e didn't have a level cap. Several sourcebooks had spell charts and Thac0 tables up to level 40.
You're right in noting, however, that a few books had specific exceptions. Notably, Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic had rules for characters up to (IIRC) level 45! However, it took pains to explain that this was apparently specific to that campaign world at that time, and that after the fall of Netheril, the gods imposed limits on the level that characters could attain, and the level of magic that could be cast.
EDIT: And the nerfing of the fiends continues...does anyone miss the days when half the Abyssal Princes were gods and Demogorgon was just one among many?
Alzrius said:
2E did indeed have a level cap. The Dungeon Master's Option: High-Level Campaigns book explicitly spelled out that characters couldn't gain more than 30 levels, universalizing a general rule that had been around since the (Dark Sun-specific) Dragon Kings book.
You're right in noting, however, that a few books had specific exceptions. Notably, Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic had rules for characters up to (IIRC) level 45! However, it took pains to explain that this was apparently specific to that campaign world at that time, and that after the fall of Netheril, the gods imposed limits on the level that characters could attain, and the level of magic that could be cast.
I vaguely recall that 1E tried to say that fiend lords weren't as powerful as gods...except when in their realms. 2E just made (some of) them gods, and said that was it. 3E didn't do that, but sort of pretended that they were god-like in power and scope, even though the stats they gave clearly spelled out that they weren't. 4E's answer is to just say that they're not as strong as gods, and wish they were.
You're right in noting, however, that a few books had specific exceptions. Notably, Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic had rules for characters up to (IIRC) level 45! However, it took pains to explain that this was apparently specific to that campaign world at that time, and that after the fall of Netheril, the gods imposed limits on the level that characters could attain, and the level of magic that could be cast.
I vaguely recall that 1E tried to say that fiend lords weren't as powerful as gods...except when in their realms. 2E just made (some of) them gods, and said that was it. 3E didn't do that, but sort of pretended that they were god-like in power and scope, even though the stats they gave clearly spelled out that they weren't. 4E's answer is to just say that they're not as strong as gods, and wish they were.
On the fiends, a later 1E sourcebook specifically mentioned that some Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine were true deities (notably Dispater, the Dark Lord, Orcus, Demogorgon).
Lord of Bones said:
The Villain's Lorebook had rules for 40th level characters.
On the fiends, a later 1E sourcebook specifically mentioned that some Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine were true deities (notably Dispater, the Dark Lord, Orcus, Demogorgon).
Alzrius said:
Lord of Bones said:
The Villain's Lorebook had rules for 40th level characters.
On the fiends, a later 1E sourcebook specifically mentioned that some Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine were true deities (notably Dispater, the Dark Lord, Orcus, Demogorgon).
Deities and Demigods or the Immortal's Handbook had the fiend = deity information...somewhere around those lines. It specifically mentions that certain fiends in the MM and some other tomes have the powers of demideities or lesser deities.
Admittedly, it didn't make sense. Triel was stated as having the power of a lesser (?) deity, while poor Mephistopheles was stuck with being only an archfiend.
On an unrelated note, did anyone else find Demogorgon's stated goals and personality in FC 2 and Dragon 357 a bit...irritating? I rather preferred ripvanwormer's interpretation of the Mad Prince.
Lord of Bones said:
Ah, Faiths and Avatars and Powers and Pantheons, how I miss you...I actually converted the avatars into 3.5e, bringing them up to scale and massively overpowering them.
Personally, I was always more enamored of Monster Mythology myself, though the big three that were F&A, P&P, and DD were very good also.
Deities and Demigods or the Immortal's Handbook had the fiend = deity information...somewhere around those lines. It specifically mentions that certain fiends in the MM and some other tomes have the powers of demideities or lesser deities.
Admittedly, it didn't make sense. Triel was stated as having the power of a lesser (?) deity, while poor Mephistopheles was stuck with being only an archfiend.
Admittedly, it didn't make sense. Triel was stated as having the power of a lesser (?) deity, while poor Mephistopheles was stuck with being only an archfiend.
Do you mean the 3E D&Dg? I didn't think much of that book, particularly since it ranked fiend lords as rank 0 deities, making them "quasi-gods" or "hero-gods" (which were two different ranks in previous editions, before 3E declared them to both be names for rank 0 gods). Making fiend lords optionally have that rank (they even waffled on that point, making them optional) wasn't much of an improvement, since by the RAW they couldn't grant spells (they tried to dance around that point, saying their worshippers were worshipping evil as defined by that fiend lord, and gained spells from Evil as a force), not to mention that it made them insignificant in divine politics...I'm sorry, but Asmodeus should be feared by gods, not a measly CR 32.
The Immortal's Handbook on the other hand...now that's a superlative work, albeit a third-party one. I wish the author wasn't so enamored of 4E, as he's going to do one last 3.5E book, putting pretty much everything he can think of into it, before he focuses everything on 4E.
On an unrelated note, did anyone else find Demogorgon's stated goals and personality in FC 2 and Dragon 357 a bit...irritating? I rather preferred ripvanwormer's interpretation of the Mad Prince.
In any event, I much prefer the Dicefreaks incarnation of Demogorgon, where he can consume souls utterly, and if he consumes a god, has a chance of consuming all of its worshippers through that god as well! Now that's scary!
It was a 1E book. I can't remember the name, but it specifically dealt with the issue of the fiends and the deities.
On the subject of Demogorgon, I personally dislike the idea of the Mad One being some sort of all powerful cthonic tanar'ri. I liked him better in 2e, where he was (a powerful) one among many.
I have a 3.5E (incomplete) lesser power version of Demogorgon floating around in my HD. His avatar was CR 93, which pretty much tells you how I view the fiend lords.
On the subject of Demogorgon, I personally dislike the idea of the Mad One being some sort of all powerful cthonic tanar'ri. I liked him better in 2e, where he was (a powerful) one among many.
I have a 3.5E (incomplete) lesser power version of Demogorgon floating around in my HD. His avatar was CR 93, which pretty much tells you how I view the fiend lords.
So far my two biggest bitches with 4e have been the power progressions and the mechanics of daily and encounter power. While I've never denied someone the option to retrain in my games before I can't believe its now part of the leveling system.
To make it simple starting at thirteenth level you stop getting new encounter powers from your class and have to choose to retrain an older power for a new one. This means that a fighter forgets how to swing his FUCKIN' WEAPON in such a way to do half assed trick number one inorder to learn half assed trick number five.
This means a 30th level fighter can't teach a 12th level fighter an encounter or daily power cause he doesn't know one that doesn't require a minimum level of thirteen or a daily below fifteenth. On that note it's possible for any character other than a warlock, to use all first level at will powers over the course of three levels and only know two at a time...Is there any logic there?
The next problem is that their are ways of swinging a weapon or casting a spell that can only be accomplished once ever six hours (oh my bad a day) or once every five minutes(oh I mean an encounter). Right. Sure. I'll believe that. DnD now uses cool down times, ludicrously long cool down times.
A complaint that isn't concerning the system monk,barbarian, druid, and sorcerer are complete and were in play testing when the spoiler books came out, they're mentioned in the spoiler books. As well as different wizard implements. Since the books launched last Friday new stuff has already been released on DND insider according to a friend of mine. Thanks Wizards, I love you too.
To make it simple starting at thirteenth level you stop getting new encounter powers from your class and have to choose to retrain an older power for a new one. This means that a fighter forgets how to swing his FUCKIN' WEAPON in such a way to do half assed trick number one inorder to learn half assed trick number five.
This means a 30th level fighter can't teach a 12th level fighter an encounter or daily power cause he doesn't know one that doesn't require a minimum level of thirteen or a daily below fifteenth. On that note it's possible for any character other than a warlock, to use all first level at will powers over the course of three levels and only know two at a time...Is there any logic there?
The next problem is that their are ways of swinging a weapon or casting a spell that can only be accomplished once ever six hours (oh my bad a day) or once every five minutes(oh I mean an encounter). Right. Sure. I'll believe that. DnD now uses cool down times, ludicrously long cool down times.
A complaint that isn't concerning the system monk,barbarian, druid, and sorcerer are complete and were in play testing when the spoiler books came out, they're mentioned in the spoiler books. As well as different wizard implements. Since the books launched last Friday new stuff has already been released on DND insider according to a friend of mine. Thanks Wizards, I love you too.
Christopher Robin said:
Is there NO one else who frackin' likes 4e besides me?
What's weird is I was the only DnD fan in my group before and the rest are loving 4e and wanting to play or run games.There was a time where I used the ability to multi class as a justification of playing a class based game to these people. :huh:
Hey I have a question for you, do you play MMORPGs?
Christopher Robin said:
Hell one of my PCs made the comment that 4e is just a "tabletop MMO" today and seemed inexorability pleased by this concept.
Thanks for the response by the way.
Alzrius said:
Well, the GSL just came out - this is the third-party license for 4E.
It's actually more restrictive than I thought. Several portions of it continue to bind the licensee even after the license has been terminated...in perpetuity.
Fuck WotC. Fuck them up their stupid asses.
It's actually more restrictive than I thought. Several portions of it continue to bind the licensee even after the license has been terminated...in perpetuity.
Fuck WotC. Fuck them up their stupid asses.
Cornuthaum said:
Alzrius said:
Well, the GSL just came out - this is the third-party license for 4E.
It's actually more restrictive than I thought. Several portions of it continue to bind the licensee even after the license has been terminated...in perpetuity.
Fuck WotC. Fuck them up their stupid asses.
It's actually more restrictive than I thought. Several portions of it continue to bind the licensee even after the license has been terminated...in perpetuity.
Fuck WotC. Fuck them up their stupid asses.
1) If you publish(ed) a book under the OGL, publishing it under the GSL means that you agree to stop publishing the OGL version forever - that is one of the many aspects of the GSL that binds you even after termination of the license - even if your right to publish under the GSL is later revoked by WotC. And guess what? An "OGL Conversion" is stipulated to count as anything with the same or similar title, product line name, or has ANY OF THE SAME CONTENT! That means that if even a single monster/magic item/feat in your new 4E book was one you've published in an OGL book, you've just given away your right to not only produce that OGL book ever again, but also that entire line of products.
2) You cannot redefine any of the terms listed in the GSL. That means you're going to have to tip-toe around renaming anything you write that's based around existing content. If you want a variant warlock class, for example, you can write it, but you need to name it something else. That might not be so bad, but take it in conjunction with point #3...
3) You can't reproduce any text from the SRD/WotC's rulebooks. You can only use the list of enclosed terms, and may reference the section of the appropriate Core Rulebook that it's in. So you can't reprint the stat blocks of any monster, for example. You can print the changes to the stat blocks if you modify the monster with class levels, templates, etc. but apparently just the mathematical changes. This means you'll be doing a lot of flipping back and forth between your books. This also means that original content of yours will have to be almost totally original, since you can't use anything from the Core Rulebooks as written.
4) Viral third-party content is gone. That means that if another third-party publisher writes a cool new class/monster/etc. and you want to use it in your third-party product, the GSL gives you no mechanism for doing so. You need to work out an independent agreement with that other publisher to use what they wrote.
5) The GSL binds you to assist WotC with protecting their IP rights. This isn't stipulated to be limited to the GSL or anything; it's just a blanket statement (section 10.3) that you MUST help WotC protect their intellectual properties. Worse, this is another section that you are bound by FOREVER.
6) The GSL still doesn't give publishers the right to use various terms that were excluded under the OGL. Remember how people couldn't use the terms githyanki, githzerai, beholder, etc., and people were excited because the GSL would let them? Guess what, it doesn't. In fact, they've also removed the names of several additional creatures, including all of the various types of demons and devils, and the Tarrasque!
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. It's so restrictive that even some of the most strident third-parties who supported the GSL are now backing away from it. It's damn near insane of WotC to release something this binding.
Lord of Bones said:
I see the TSR situation repeating itself.
EDIT: Off topic, but is Kiaransalee undead? The only actual undead gods I know are Tenebrous, Vecna, Velsharoon, Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
EDIT: Off topic, but is Kiaransalee undead? The only actual undead gods I know are Tenebrous, Vecna, Velsharoon, Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
Osiris is also an undead god (a mummy).
Tenebrous isn't a god, per se. In the original Dead Gods adventure, he was described as being "lesser than even a demigod [...] but still a god." However, he was unheard from after that until 3E, where he was Orcus, a non-divine demon lord again. Recently, in Tome of Magic, Tenebrous was declared to be a separate entity from Orcus, existing as a vestige.
Alzrius said:
Lord of Bones said:
I see the TSR situation repeating itself.
EDIT: Off topic, but is Kiaransalee undead? The only actual undead gods I know are Tenebrous, Vecna, Velsharoon, Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
EDIT: Off topic, but is Kiaransalee undead? The only actual undead gods I know are Tenebrous, Vecna, Velsharoon, Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
Osiris is also an undead god (a mummy).
Tenebrous isn't a god, per se. In the original Dead Gods adventure, he was described as being "lesser than even a demigod [...] but still a god." However, he was unheard from after that until 3E, where he was Orcus, a non-divine demon lord again. Recently, in Tome of Magic, Tenebrous was declared to be a separate entity from Orcus, existing as a vestige.
It also seems that WotC conviniently ignored the other tanar'ri powers. How did Juiblex the lesser god become Juiblex the balor buttmonkey?
Lord of Bones said:
Alzrius said:
Lord of Bones said:
I see the TSR situation repeating itself.
EDIT: Off topic, but is Kiaransalee undead? The only actual undead gods I know are Tenebrous, Vecna, Velsharoon, Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
EDIT: Off topic, but is Kiaransalee undead? The only actual undead gods I know are Tenebrous, Vecna, Velsharoon, Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
Osiris is also an undead god (a mummy).
Tenebrous isn't a god, per se. In the original Dead Gods adventure, he was described as being "lesser than even a demigod [...] but still a god." However, he was unheard from after that until 3E, where he was Orcus, a non-divine demon lord again. Recently, in Tome of Magic, Tenebrous was declared to be a separate entity from Orcus, existing as a vestige.
It also seems that WotC conviniently ignored the other tanar'ri powers. How did Juiblex the lesser god become Juiblex the balor buttmonkey?
And I'm not sure if your second statement is referencing how the 2E to 3E transition made fiend gods be non-divine beings again, or how it made their stats unimpressive compared to how normal fiends can advance.