Alternate candidates for Tuxedo Kamen
- Thread starter bissek
- Start date
I think we should look at this rationally. We want a replacement for Tuxedo Kamen who would be an imporvement on Mamoru Chiba, yes? First off, we need to properly define what it is that we dislike about Mamoru's Tuxedo Kamen persona.
For my part, Mamoru Chiba's percieved flaws can be distilled down into three salient points:
*First, he comes across to me as an extremely arrogant person, in his Tuxedo Kamen role as well as in his civilian identity.
*Secondly, he does not help the Senshi beyond the usual pep-talk and occasionally tossing magically-enhanced roses at their foes.
*Thirdly, and perhaps most damningly for someone who's supposed to be Destined to be Sailor Moon/Usagi Tsukino's One True Love, he consistently fails to meet up to the required standards; he will break up with her for no good reason other than some nebulous vision that may or may not come true, for example.
So, with these factors in mind, we can invert them, and search for a character who is humble, even meek, but who will (as the song goes) climb every mountain and ford every stream if he (or she) thought it would make Usagi happy, and/or helped the Senshi defeat their foes. Someone whose mild-mannered exterior hides an inner core of steel and a will of fire.
What does everyone else think?
For my part, Mamoru Chiba's percieved flaws can be distilled down into three salient points:
*First, he comes across to me as an extremely arrogant person, in his Tuxedo Kamen role as well as in his civilian identity.
*Secondly, he does not help the Senshi beyond the usual pep-talk and occasionally tossing magically-enhanced roses at their foes.
*Thirdly, and perhaps most damningly for someone who's supposed to be Destined to be Sailor Moon/Usagi Tsukino's One True Love, he consistently fails to meet up to the required standards; he will break up with her for no good reason other than some nebulous vision that may or may not come true, for example.
So, with these factors in mind, we can invert them, and search for a character who is humble, even meek, but who will (as the song goes) climb every mountain and ford every stream if he (or she) thought it would make Usagi happy, and/or helped the Senshi defeat their foes. Someone whose mild-mannered exterior hides an inner core of steel and a will of fire.
What does everyone else think?
Manga!Usagi actually has good odds of throwing down with Doom in a battle of Willpower and winning on battles Usagi actually cares about.
She after all has fought and won against Cosmic Level entities on their home turf at full power.
Giving Doom credit though he is smart and cunning enough to figure out just what Usagi is willing to throw down on. Unless Doom wants a fight on those issues, he's good enough to side step them by choosing other paths to achieve his goals.
On the whole Doom as Prince Endymion re-incarnated; Doom is now the mystical king of the Earth. As in Doom has a legitimate claim on ruling the planet and it's backed up with a heck of a lot of mystical power.
The real fun of the Usagi/Doom match-up is seeing Doom dealing with the fact that Usagi at the start is a fourteen year old girl who starts evoking emotions within him.
Ciao
She after all has fought and won against Cosmic Level entities on their home turf at full power.
Giving Doom credit though he is smart and cunning enough to figure out just what Usagi is willing to throw down on. Unless Doom wants a fight on those issues, he's good enough to side step them by choosing other paths to achieve his goals.
On the whole Doom as Prince Endymion re-incarnated; Doom is now the mystical king of the Earth. As in Doom has a legitimate claim on ruling the planet and it's backed up with a heck of a lot of mystical power.
The real fun of the Usagi/Doom match-up is seeing Doom dealing with the fact that Usagi at the start is a fourteen year old girl who starts evoking emotions within him.
Ciao
Ah... David Alan Abramczyk
Based on your arguements, I am to assume, like me, you have experienced only anime Usagi and Mamoru... I'm afraid more hard core Sailor Moon fans refuse to aknowledge that the anime series is a part of canon material and prefer to look at it almost as fannon.
Further... in past discussions, SeiyaxUsagi had divided anime Usagi herself into two completely separate characters in episodes... spamlike ditz, and capable character. Specifically treating them as two characters, not one.
Arguments against SeiyaxUsagi using anime base canon material are doomed to failure.
Based on your arguements, I am to assume, like me, you have experienced only anime Usagi and Mamoru... I'm afraid more hard core Sailor Moon fans refuse to aknowledge that the anime series is a part of canon material and prefer to look at it almost as fannon.
Further... in past discussions, SeiyaxUsagi had divided anime Usagi herself into two completely separate characters in episodes... spamlike ditz, and capable character. Specifically treating them as two characters, not one.
Arguments against SeiyaxUsagi using anime base canon material are doomed to failure.
D
@PC
We have different views of canon. I don't consider things canon in the anime unless it has actually added something to plot otherwise I consider it pointless filler. Usually because I feel Usagi and the rest of the senshi would be reset to their beginning characterization in those episodes. You may disagree with that but that's just how I feel.
@DAA
Mamoru was pretty weak compared to a senshi in the manga too. But at least he had actual attacks and mostly joined his power with Usagi making her stronger. There was no break up and he geninunely loved her. He would have done anything to make her happy. When she was jealous of Chibi-Usa because he spent so much time with with her in the manga. She was reassured that he cared about Chibi-Usa so much because Usagi was her mother.
But I still like Seiya Kou more.
We have different views of canon. I don't consider things canon in the anime unless it has actually added something to plot otherwise I consider it pointless filler. Usually because I feel Usagi and the rest of the senshi would be reset to their beginning characterization in those episodes. You may disagree with that but that's just how I feel.
@DAA
Mamoru was pretty weak compared to a senshi in the manga too. But at least he had actual attacks and mostly joined his power with Usagi making her stronger. There was no break up and he geninunely loved her. He would have done anything to make her happy. When she was jealous of Chibi-Usa because he spent so much time with with her in the manga. She was reassured that he cared about Chibi-Usa so much because Usagi was her mother.
But I still like Seiya Kou more.
I know it. That was made quite clear from the Usagi discussion thread a while back.
For me, canon is:
My view is anime is just as canon as manga, just that they should generally be considered different continuities of each other.
Canon to me is anything within the series source material. For a anime, OAV, or movie, within series airtime. For manga, within the story pages, and not before or after them. Covers would count in manga and on the DVD/VHS/VCD's in anime.
Anything stated by an author after series, or during interviews is not part of series, and this not admissible in my eyes as canon. If a series is ever extended, then that becomes part of canon.
Every page of a manga, every second of an anime, it is all canon, I do not consider something not canon merely due to it not adding to plot. About the only exceptions would be end of episode shorts some series and manga have... such as the super deformed conversations at the end of each Lodoss Wars Chronicles of the Heroic Knights... that breaks plot, breaks 4th wall, breaks characterization by having them directly address an audience.
Thus... these differing definitions is half our ability to never come to any agreement.
Oh well.
For me, canon is:
My view is anime is just as canon as manga, just that they should generally be considered different continuities of each other.
Canon to me is anything within the series source material. For a anime, OAV, or movie, within series airtime. For manga, within the story pages, and not before or after them. Covers would count in manga and on the DVD/VHS/VCD's in anime.
Anything stated by an author after series, or during interviews is not part of series, and this not admissible in my eyes as canon. If a series is ever extended, then that becomes part of canon.
Every page of a manga, every second of an anime, it is all canon, I do not consider something not canon merely due to it not adding to plot. About the only exceptions would be end of episode shorts some series and manga have... such as the super deformed conversations at the end of each Lodoss Wars Chronicles of the Heroic Knights... that breaks plot, breaks 4th wall, breaks characterization by having them directly address an audience.
Thus... these differing definitions is half our ability to never come to any agreement.
Oh well.
For my first post in this forum and this topic, I suggest two qualified Kamen-Substitute:
Itachi Uchiha from Naruto. His plus points:
-Fighting skills and knowledge
-Loyalty to a cause (the guy has sacrificed his reputation, his family, his possible happiness and himself to an ideal of peace and to prevent a civil war (Uchiha coup d'etate))
-Competence in the use of a power
-Civilian knowledge.
The second candidate is Chaos Dragon Garv from Slayers.
Itachi Uchiha from Naruto. His plus points:
-Fighting skills and knowledge
-Loyalty to a cause (the guy has sacrificed his reputation, his family, his possible happiness and himself to an ideal of peace and to prevent a civil war (Uchiha coup d'etate))
-Competence in the use of a power
-Civilian knowledge.
The second candidate is Chaos Dragon Garv from Slayers.
Harry Dresden
Harry stared down at the bright eyed, blond haired, twin pony tailed girl, his fingers going slack on his staff. He whirled around, duster snapping about behind as he turned to glare at the green cat-eyed woman currently reclining on a plush divan. ôYou canÆt be serious.ö
Mab daintily lifted a grape from a near by bowl, her other hand petting the large panther in her lap. ôOh but I am serious wizard.ö The panther rumbled, speaking for its mistress. ôYou owe me one last favor, and since you wonÆt trade your first issueàö HarryÆs grip tightened on his staff. ôI find that this is an equitable return on my generosity.ö
The wizard had to take several deep breaths before he trusted his voice ôYou expect me to marry a child?!ö even so he still growled.
The panther chuckled ôUsagi is the destined ruler of a grand utopia for mankind wizard, and I desire an alliance with such power.ö Mab slowly chewed her fruit, eyes dancing with mirth as the black beast continued ôAs much as you deny it, you are a child of winter and you WILL marry Usagi to ensure our good relations wizard.ö MabÆs hand caressed the big catÆs muzzle, with loving care. ôBut if you are shy about such thing, you may wait a few years before consummating the union.ö
Harry nearly exploded, but was stopped by the feel of a small hand grasping his burned arm. He turned and looked upon this girl-child whose head barely made it to his chest. She smiled at him, allowing him to see the worry in her eyes. ôCould we at least give it a chance?ö Harry blinked as he felt a tingle go through him, and then acted when he realized he really had felt a tingle. He pulled his gloved hand away and easily flexed fingers thatÆd been stiff mere moment ago. Pulling off his glove he found his arm and hand resorted, his amazed eyes flicking to UsagiÆs bright smiling face.
Ben 10
HeÆd make a great ambassador to the other races. I mean heÆd be able to understand them in away no other earthling could.
Kit Walker, Jr. (Phantom 2040)
Considering everything Kit did to protect the planet, having him turn out to be the guardian of earth feels very appropriate. Also, now instead of fighting corps like Maximum Inc. from the shadows as a vigilante, he can bring all the power and influence of Crystal Tokyo to bear.
Cowl (From the book of the same name by Neal Asher)
Cowl is a Preterhuman that is almost Doom-level brilliant, exceedingly hard to kill, vicious, determined, a tad arrogant and very deadly. However for all the villainous things heÆs done, his life couldÆve turned to a more benevolent route with the guidance of someone like Usagi.
This man is responsible for discovering time travel in his time period and is also the reason his side won the solar war.
The following are some excerpts to give you an idea of what he is, and what he can do. Keep in mind the people heÆd killing all come from a future where survival of the fittest is the official rule, thus they are all in superior physical and mental state compared to modern humans
The Nightmare bore the shape of a man, but a tall long-limbed man [à.] It had no face-its head was a slightly beaked, utterly featureless ovoid, of the same shiny black material as most of its naked body. [à] the black carapace revealed a network hyaline veins and ribs, so that [in the right light] it looked like something horribly skeletal stood there.
CowlÆs hand was on [characterÆs] chest, sharp fingers penetrating between [characterÆs] ribs, then he slammed [character] around gunshot-fast into a window, cracking armored glass.
Cowl was on [the first] interface generator when it fired up, slinging a wall of energy up before the dark intruder, but Cowl somehow pushed through it.
Cowl came rushing along the outside of the building like a spider.
Captain Jack Harkness
I think itÆd be more fun to see the courtship, as Usagi getting Jack to look at her and only her would be a feat unto itself. Though to be fair, having a nigh immortal wife would be a relief for this man.
Bruce Banner (The Incredible Hulk)
IÆm thinking of the Warlord Hulk version from Planet Hulk. God help the person that makes his beloved wife or little girl cry.
The youths shifted their gazes from a crying Chibi-usa to a much larger hulking figure.
ôWHAT have you done to MY LITTLE GIRL?!ö The green goliath roared.
The gang of five boys wet their pants in unison
Harry stared down at the bright eyed, blond haired, twin pony tailed girl, his fingers going slack on his staff. He whirled around, duster snapping about behind as he turned to glare at the green cat-eyed woman currently reclining on a plush divan. ôYou canÆt be serious.ö
Mab daintily lifted a grape from a near by bowl, her other hand petting the large panther in her lap. ôOh but I am serious wizard.ö The panther rumbled, speaking for its mistress. ôYou owe me one last favor, and since you wonÆt trade your first issueàö HarryÆs grip tightened on his staff. ôI find that this is an equitable return on my generosity.ö
The wizard had to take several deep breaths before he trusted his voice ôYou expect me to marry a child?!ö even so he still growled.
The panther chuckled ôUsagi is the destined ruler of a grand utopia for mankind wizard, and I desire an alliance with such power.ö Mab slowly chewed her fruit, eyes dancing with mirth as the black beast continued ôAs much as you deny it, you are a child of winter and you WILL marry Usagi to ensure our good relations wizard.ö MabÆs hand caressed the big catÆs muzzle, with loving care. ôBut if you are shy about such thing, you may wait a few years before consummating the union.ö
Harry nearly exploded, but was stopped by the feel of a small hand grasping his burned arm. He turned and looked upon this girl-child whose head barely made it to his chest. She smiled at him, allowing him to see the worry in her eyes. ôCould we at least give it a chance?ö Harry blinked as he felt a tingle go through him, and then acted when he realized he really had felt a tingle. He pulled his gloved hand away and easily flexed fingers thatÆd been stiff mere moment ago. Pulling off his glove he found his arm and hand resorted, his amazed eyes flicking to UsagiÆs bright smiling face.
Ben 10
HeÆd make a great ambassador to the other races. I mean heÆd be able to understand them in away no other earthling could.
Kit Walker, Jr. (Phantom 2040)
Considering everything Kit did to protect the planet, having him turn out to be the guardian of earth feels very appropriate. Also, now instead of fighting corps like Maximum Inc. from the shadows as a vigilante, he can bring all the power and influence of Crystal Tokyo to bear.
Cowl (From the book of the same name by Neal Asher)
Cowl is a Preterhuman that is almost Doom-level brilliant, exceedingly hard to kill, vicious, determined, a tad arrogant and very deadly. However for all the villainous things heÆs done, his life couldÆve turned to a more benevolent route with the guidance of someone like Usagi.
This man is responsible for discovering time travel in his time period and is also the reason his side won the solar war.
The following are some excerpts to give you an idea of what he is, and what he can do. Keep in mind the people heÆd killing all come from a future where survival of the fittest is the official rule, thus they are all in superior physical and mental state compared to modern humans
The Nightmare bore the shape of a man, but a tall long-limbed man [à.] It had no face-its head was a slightly beaked, utterly featureless ovoid, of the same shiny black material as most of its naked body. [à] the black carapace revealed a network hyaline veins and ribs, so that [in the right light] it looked like something horribly skeletal stood there.
CowlÆs hand was on [characterÆs] chest, sharp fingers penetrating between [characterÆs] ribs, then he slammed [character] around gunshot-fast into a window, cracking armored glass.
Cowl was on [the first] interface generator when it fired up, slinging a wall of energy up before the dark intruder, but Cowl somehow pushed through it.
Cowl came rushing along the outside of the building like a spider.
Captain Jack Harkness
I think itÆd be more fun to see the courtship, as Usagi getting Jack to look at her and only her would be a feat unto itself. Though to be fair, having a nigh immortal wife would be a relief for this man.
Bruce Banner (The Incredible Hulk)
IÆm thinking of the Warlord Hulk version from Planet Hulk. God help the person that makes his beloved wife or little girl cry.
The youths shifted their gazes from a crying Chibi-usa to a much larger hulking figure.
ôWHAT have you done to MY LITTLE GIRL?!ö The green goliath roared.
The gang of five boys wet their pants in unison