So there's been an ongoing discussion on the topic in the "Of The Forest" idea thread for like a week on Tsunade's super strength. Since I don't think everyone ventures into the idea section or just hasn't looked into the topic, I figured I'd move the discussion into the talk section.
The discussion so far:
Tsunade's strength is explicitly called the pinnacle of what a human can achieve, then boosted with chakra to go beyond physical limits.
What crack are you reading on?
You are combining two ideas in the wrong manner. Nowhere is it stated that she has the most strength canonically before chakra enhancement. That is just plain wrong.
No, I'm combining them correctly. Read.
Now that's just lazy. If you have a panel you want me to read, then link it. Otherwise, no, I am quite convinced you are wrong.
See, I don't know exactly what you are thinking, but my guess is that you are making the mistake most people make in thinking about chakra through the eyes of a westerner. This isn't like "mana." Chakra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra) continually flows through all living things. Without chakra you are dead, period. Without chakra flowing through your arm it will not move, period. (that is why Jyuuken works, and why it is so effective.) Tsunade is able to control the flow of that chakra to reach the maximum possible level of strength. However, that is a technique, not something she could do without chakra control. If she does not control her chakra she is no stronger than anybody else.
The problem here is that Narutoverse!chakra is inspired by realworld!chakra, but it's been given extra attributes that make that kind of reasoning get shaky- so much so that it's unclear if it can be applied.
"We've seen what adding chakra does- it adds force. Jumping off the bridge, pushing off trees harder, creating explosions. All we've seen is chakra releases, we have never once seen augmentation- there's nothing that even says it exists."
tl;dr: We're trying to apply real world stuff to something that's explained by rule of cool in a manga for kids. We're probably not gonna get far here, though it'd be cool to throw ideas back and forth.
The fundamentals are clearly tied together. Obviously the exact details of chakra mechanics differ, but everything from Sage Mode to the Hachimon to the Byakkugan/Jyuuken to the Sharingan's predictive abilities points to a close relation in the fundamentals.
I'm hardly an expert on chakra and even if I were, there's no one unifying theory, but it's important to remember that chakra flows through you every time your heart beats. It may be possible to stop your chakra for a split second (there are beliefs about Buddhist monks being able to temporarily stop their heart -- this has been partially verified in the real world as some monks can reduce their heartbeat to very, very low levels -- or even somebody else's creating a temporary death state), but as a general rule, if you are alive, chakra is flowing through you.
This means that there are three ways to get physically stronger:
1.) Build stronger muscles. (Ninja seem to avoid this. There are disadvantages to being larger.)
2.) Increase the quantity of chakra flowing through your muscles. (As in how Naruto stopped Orochimaru's summon in the Forest of Death.)
3.) Use chakra control to focus the release your bodies physical energy. (Tsunade's super strength.)
Ninja seem to rely on a combination of (2) and (3). Tsunade has taken (3) to it's absolute theoretical limit and has a very strong chakra giving her a lot of (2) as well.
But this is why I said that it's possible that "she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi." What I meant is that her muscles themselves are not stronger. In fact, given that she supposedly weighs only 48.9kg (108 pounds), she can't be very muscular at all. Muscle tissue is denser than fat. Of course this may be Kishimoto not knowing how to do math (how the fuck is Tayuya only 38.2kg...) but my point stands.
The reason she is stronger is she beats him soundly in (2) and whips his ass in (3). That's her super strength technique.
So if you've got anything to say on the subject, say it here. Go!
The discussion so far:
Shirotsume said:
All this talk about Senju and Mokuton... I still want to see a Tsunade-style Naruto. I mean, think about this for a moment.
We know Tsunade is straight up super-strong, no techniques or any bullshit. We can conjecture she did this by working out her muscles, and then repairing them herself instead of waiting for her body to do so... over and over and over again. Standard way muscles are made.
Naruto has uberhealing. He can do the same. This is touched on a few times in stories, but only as a way of training FASTER, not training BETTER.
Now add in that things like the Cherry Blossom Explosion (Sakura's chakra-based copy of Tsunade's strength) are possible, and imagine using THAT with the strength you already have.
Now multiply by Kage Bunshin. Each with, basically, spammable, instant Falcon Punch from hell.
I've never, ever seen a taijutsu!Naruto done well. Because a melee focused Naruto would be amazing- just unrelenting power from every direction that never stops.
We know Tsunade is straight up super-strong, no techniques or any bullshit. We can conjecture she did this by working out her muscles, and then repairing them herself instead of waiting for her body to do so... over and over and over again. Standard way muscles are made.
Naruto has uberhealing. He can do the same. This is touched on a few times in stories, but only as a way of training FASTER, not training BETTER.
Now add in that things like the Cherry Blossom Explosion (Sakura's chakra-based copy of Tsunade's strength) are possible, and imagine using THAT with the strength you already have.
Now multiply by Kage Bunshin. Each with, basically, spammable, instant Falcon Punch from hell.
I've never, ever seen a taijutsu!Naruto done well. Because a melee focused Naruto would be amazing- just unrelenting power from every direction that never stops.
Antimatter said:
I thought it was a technique?? Sakura attempted to emulate it with less success, when she made her megaton punch like move.? where did you read it was purely physical?
knight504 said:
For reference:
Databook 2 said:
Konoha Thousand Leaves Collection #24
It would seem Tsunade's "outrageous strength" completely ignores the laws of nature!! The challenge to common sense that is her power is due in no small part to her artful chakra control and fine-tuning. To give things a name, by instantly collecting chakra into her fist and fingers, she obtains a power of destruction bodily strength alone cannot achieve.
It would seem Tsunade's "outrageous strength" completely ignores the laws of nature!! The challenge to common sense that is her power is due in no small part to her artful chakra control and fine-tuning. To give things a name, by instantly collecting chakra into her fist and fingers, she obtains a power of destruction bodily strength alone cannot achieve.
Databook 3 said:
Cherry? Blossom Impact (???, Oukashou)
People are wont to recognise this as "superhuman strength," but it's an application of "medical ninjutsu," demanding the ability to concentrate and minute chakra control. In an instant, the highest grade of chakra is kneaded inside the body, and a moment later all of it it is gathered into the right fist!! That chakra is dispersed into the target, together with the impact of the punch, spreading the damage to every nook and corner! Any kind of strength is meaningless before this technique. With the damage done dependent on the amount of chakra used, it is also possible for a skilled shinobi to amass it in their fingertip.
People are wont to recognise this as "superhuman strength," but it's an application of "medical ninjutsu," demanding the ability to concentrate and minute chakra control. In an instant, the highest grade of chakra is kneaded inside the body, and a moment later all of it it is gathered into the right fist!! That chakra is dispersed into the target, together with the impact of the punch, spreading the damage to every nook and corner! Any kind of strength is meaningless before this technique. With the damage done dependent on the amount of chakra used, it is also possible for a skilled shinobi to amass it in their fingertip.
knight504 said:
Sakura's version is classified as a jutsu whilst Tsunade's seem to be treated as a chakra-based skill like tree climbing, water walking and related abilities. Presumably Tsunade's base strength would be high too, especially given what she can do with medical jutsu, but I don't think there's any scene where it's certain she's not using chakra enhancement.
Antimatter said:
i imagine that without her chakra trick, she's probably no stronger then any other ninja in the forces.? She's just a master at subtle chakra manipulation.? she's a lot like Sakura, but Sakura isn't as good, and well, Sakura isn't nearly as strong without it.? Tsunade is a what, 50-60 year old woman?? Without her transformation up, she probably resembled the 3rd's wife in the flashback, or Chiyo (sp?).?
If your looking at someone with pure body performance, now we are talking more Lee or Gai then Tsunade I think.? both got that way through insane training regiments.
If your looking at someone with pure body performance, now we are talking more Lee or Gai then Tsunade I think.? both got that way through insane training regiments.
ankokudaishogun said:
Actually, IIRC most taijutsu is chakra-enhanced, like Sasuke vs Haku.
We simply aren't told this, because ninja chakra-enhancing their physical strength is the norm.
Tsunade "simply" brings it to the extreme using massive amount of medical knowledge and chakra control to maximize the effectiveness of using chakra to enhance physical prowess, instead of simply "put more chakra in your muscles" like Lee and Guy do.
For Tenten... uh... why are we talking about a Urusei Yatsura character, anyway?
We simply aren't told this, because ninja chakra-enhancing their physical strength is the norm.
Tsunade "simply" brings it to the extreme using massive amount of medical knowledge and chakra control to maximize the effectiveness of using chakra to enhance physical prowess, instead of simply "put more chakra in your muscles" like Lee and Guy do.
For Tenten... uh... why are we talking about a Urusei Yatsura character, anyway?
Antimatter said:
It's not just put more chakra into your muscles though.? At least I don't get the impression that it is.? If it was, they wouldn't need to be always training/working out like they do.
knight504 said:
If you mean chakra enhancement, then yeah that's pretty much how it is. You focus your chakra in a part of your body to give them a boost. But it's not as if that removes the need to train your body since by training physically, you become stronger and faster and then chakra enhancement gives you a boost on top of that.
Shirotsume said:
We covered at some point that Tsunade was mostly physical strength- the proof was the very first fight we saw her in, where she caught a skyscraper-sized sword in midair, then swung it. She just amps it up even more with chakra manipulation.
tl;dr: Tsunade enhances her already ridiculous muscles to make them better, Sakura does the chakra equivalent of putting a bomb on her fist.
tl;dr: Tsunade enhances her already ridiculous muscles to make them better, Sakura does the chakra equivalent of putting a bomb on her fist.
knight504 said:
Whilst I do think Tsunade has a lot of physical strength, I don't really see how that's proof. She uses chakra manipulation to give her strength beyond what her body alone can achieve and I don't think there's any scene in the manga which clearly show us she's using pure physical strength. As far as we know, every feat of strength she's shown involved her chakra manipulation.
In that respect, it's possible that she has the same level of strength as, for instance, Kakashi but with her chakra trick she takes it far beyond her physical limits.
In that respect, it's possible that she has the same level of strength as, for instance, Kakashi but with her chakra trick she takes it far beyond her physical limits.
Shirotsume said:
You're looking at this wrong. It's not 'standard strength + ridiculous chakra boost.'
We've seen what adding chakra does- it adds force. Jumping off the bridge, pushing off trees harder, creating explosions. All we've seen is chakra releases, we have never once seen augmentation- there's nothing that even says it exists.
It's more like 'ridiculous strength + some chakra release.' Remember, tsunade didn't punch the sword out of the air- she grabbed it and SWUNG IT. That's not explosive strength that we see from chakra- that's measured strength.
It's like the difference between doing a deadlift slowly and doing a deadlift by heaving it as hard as you can to pop it in the air.
We've seen what adding chakra does- it adds force. Jumping off the bridge, pushing off trees harder, creating explosions. All we've seen is chakra releases, we have never once seen augmentation- there's nothing that even says it exists.
It's more like 'ridiculous strength + some chakra release.' Remember, tsunade didn't punch the sword out of the air- she grabbed it and SWUNG IT. That's not explosive strength that we see from chakra- that's measured strength.
It's like the difference between doing a deadlift slowly and doing a deadlift by heaving it as hard as you can to pop it in the air.
knight504 said:
Hmmm, don't think I've ever thought of it like that before.? :hmm:
I figured there were two types of chakra uses going on; one where they enhance the muscles e.g. Sasuke jumping off the bridge, Lee blocking Sasuke and the chuunin's kicks, pulling out that tree root and the Shunshin no Jutsu. Then the other? where you release the chakra from your body with precise timing e.g. Sakura's speed boost against Ino and her superpunch. Probaby because of the way they talked about it respectively. Sasuke "focused chakra to/in his legs" and then seemed to jump while Sakura concentrated "all her chakra to her feet and exploded off the ground".
I figured there were two types of chakra uses going on; one where they enhance the muscles e.g. Sasuke jumping off the bridge, Lee blocking Sasuke and the chuunin's kicks, pulling out that tree root and the Shunshin no Jutsu. Then the other? where you release the chakra from your body with precise timing e.g. Sakura's speed boost against Ino and her superpunch. Probaby because of the way they talked about it respectively. Sasuke "focused chakra to/in his legs" and then seemed to jump while Sakura concentrated "all her chakra to her feet and exploded off the ground".
goldenarms said:
Do remember, Kabuto specifically targeted two muscles in Tsunade's arms to prevent her from using her enormous strength. If it was simple chakra manipulation, I don't think cutting them up would work very well, since she could still use her arms.
Alos, that skyscraper-sized tanto was stuck in in ground. Tsunade somehow uprooted it, swung it over her head and slammed it straight down through Manda's mouth with enough force to prevent him from being able to even open it.
Alos, that skyscraper-sized tanto was stuck in in ground. Tsunade somehow uprooted it, swung it over her head and slammed it straight down through Manda's mouth with enough force to prevent him from being able to even open it.
nixofcyzerra said:
I've always assumed that years of using her super-strength chakra technique has slowly altered Tsunade's physiology to increase her strength even when not using the technique.
mortalone said:
Shirotsume said:
mortalone said:
Shirotsume said:
mortalone said:
Shirotsume said:
mortalone said:
Tsunade's super strength was explicitly stated to be a chakra control technique.
Between when Kabuto attacked her and when she lifted Bunta's tanto, she had used her Genesis Rebirth technique.
<a href='http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html</a>
It is possible that she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi. To a ninja, this does not matter. This is a manga where an old man with back problems can fly around and smash things up. That's just the kind of story this is.
Between when Kabuto attacked her and when she lifted Bunta's tanto, she had used her Genesis Rebirth technique.
<a href='http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html</a>
It is possible that she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi. To a ninja, this does not matter. This is a manga where an old man with back problems can fly around and smash things up. That's just the kind of story this is.
What crack are you reading on?
See, I don't know exactly what you are thinking, but my guess is that you are making the mistake most people make in thinking about chakra through the eyes of a westerner. This isn't like "mana." Chakra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra) continually flows through all living things. Without chakra you are dead, period. Without chakra flowing through your arm it will not move, period. (that is why Jyuuken works, and why it is so effective.) Tsunade is able to control the flow of that chakra to reach the maximum possible level of strength. However, that is a technique, not something she could do without chakra control. If she does not control her chakra she is no stronger than anybody else.
"We've seen what adding chakra does- it adds force. Jumping off the bridge, pushing off trees harder, creating explosions. All we've seen is chakra releases, we have never once seen augmentation- there's nothing that even says it exists."
tl;dr: We're trying to apply real world stuff to something that's explained by rule of cool in a manga for kids. We're probably not gonna get far here, though it'd be cool to throw ideas back and forth.
I'm hardly an expert on chakra and even if I were, there's no one unifying theory, but it's important to remember that chakra flows through you every time your heart beats. It may be possible to stop your chakra for a split second (there are beliefs about Buddhist monks being able to temporarily stop their heart -- this has been partially verified in the real world as some monks can reduce their heartbeat to very, very low levels -- or even somebody else's creating a temporary death state), but as a general rule, if you are alive, chakra is flowing through you.
This means that there are three ways to get physically stronger:
1.) Build stronger muscles. (Ninja seem to avoid this. There are disadvantages to being larger.)
2.) Increase the quantity of chakra flowing through your muscles. (As in how Naruto stopped Orochimaru's summon in the Forest of Death.)
3.) Use chakra control to focus the release your bodies physical energy. (Tsunade's super strength.)
Ninja seem to rely on a combination of (2) and (3). Tsunade has taken (3) to it's absolute theoretical limit and has a very strong chakra giving her a lot of (2) as well.
But this is why I said that it's possible that "she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi." What I meant is that her muscles themselves are not stronger. In fact, given that she supposedly weighs only 48.9kg (108 pounds), she can't be very muscular at all. Muscle tissue is denser than fat. Of course this may be Kishimoto not knowing how to do math (how the fuck is Tayuya only 38.2kg...) but my point stands.
The reason she is stronger is she beats him soundly in (2) and whips his ass in (3). That's her super strength technique.
Shirotsume said:
That sounds nice, but there's absolutely nothing at all in the story that says that's how chakra works, and several things saying otherwise.
I this way a hell of a lot better than the manga's though.
I this way a hell of a lot better than the manga's though.
