Harry Potter Charging sheets.

[Tentrees]

Here is my plot idea for a story. Or maybe just a thread.

What would be the legal charges that Draco and Lucious Malfoy would be facing?

In Great Britain...

In America...

For Lucius I think it would depend on what the Veritiserum interviews he was given in the weeks following the Battle of Hogwarts uncovered. That would be one hell of a long list...bribery, extortion, murder, breaking and entering, theft, accessory to murder, kidnapping, assault, willful endangerment, Treason. Those are just off the top off my head.

Draco - Accessory in 1rst Degree Murder, accessory in the murder of a public official both for Dumbledores murder - 100 to 240 months plus fines.

Willful endangerment (he let in the Death Eaters to Hogwarts- one year for every child under the age of majority regardless if they fought back or even knew about the battle till the next morning or not).

Assault- 1 year for every act commited from the murder of Dumbledore on. How many would depend on the Veritiserum questioning.

Sedition, rebellion and treason - Joining the ranks of the Death Eaters and/or willing supporting/espousing their cause. - 100 to 240 months or Death if sufficiant evidence exists.

If I was the judge for either of these two men... Lucius gets the noose or the needle or offered Socrates Cup. A third of the cash value of this estate in fines.

Draco gets - 11 year to 300 years, parole after 25 with good behavior. Thats after mitigation for age and not being able to kill Dumbledore. A fourth part of his inheiretance as fines. If their is a 'family seat' in the Wizengamot it is sequestered for his heir if he should ever have one. Forbiden to hold any public office or employment for life. Parole for eleven years after release. Release only with oath to obey the law and due no harm with magic.

Your thoughts...

 

[Tsukino_kage]

It'll never happen since the Magical World is run by idiotic lunatics, and since the author seems to think this is the right and correct way to run the world, one questions her sanity and competency as well.

 

[Tentrees]

Thats very true but what if the Crown had said enough and negated the home rule for the magical world after the Battle of Hogwarts.

What happen then?

 

[feynstrom]

Six months suspended sentence.

 

[Chuckg]

Well, Lucius gets conspiracy to commit murder for pretty much every kill the Death Eaters ever did, both in the first campaign of Voldemort and the events of the novels, given his position well up in the ranks of the Inner Circle. Not to mention everyone who died directly by his own hand, a not inconsiderable number.

That plus the high treason, sedition, attempting to overthrow the government, etc., ought to get him the death penalty many times over.

 

[Oni_kawaii]

Lucius uses Bribery on The ministry.

It's super effective!

 

[Tentrees]

I'm thinking more a five Judge panel/court.

They get to watch the interviews with both prsecutor and defense council present and asking questions. Judges also get to ask questions. Goal being to arrive at the truth with a minimum of delay and maximum of protection of civil rights.

Adult Death Eaters from the first war get a noose (this is the maiixmum penalty for treason under the laws of Great Britain).

Recruits engagesd in actual rapes/murders/live experementation on magical sentients dance the tiburn gig as well.

Non-felony supporters and marked under age minors get eleven years to Life no parole depending on offense.

Its harsh but th eonly way to change the purists attitudes is to burn away the veneer that they can walk away or do as they please.

In otherwards they need the Rule of Law. Something that was lacking in canon.

 

[zeebee1]

I don't think the queen is easily bribed.

 

[Tentrees]

How do you bribe a Lady who owns her own country and has 175,000 men in arms? Not counting the police who protect her subjets and watch her prisons.

Does anyone out ther honestly think the penalties I proposed for Draco and his dad are to harsh?

 

[Tsukino_kage]

Rather the opposite, they aren't harsh enough, both of them deserve to be paupers then tortured to death by slow dissection over the course of a year, only to be brought back to life to repeat the process, then have their souls locked in a battery meant to power a lamp for all eternity.

The point, however, is that it will never happen as long as the purebloods are running things.

 

[zeebee1]

Technically the queen runs things. She doesn't get involved because she believes the Ministry is doing it's job. But if she inquires on how the war criminals are being punished they will have to be harsh.

 

[Tentrees]

Rather the opposite, they aren't harsh enough, both of them deserve to be paupers then tortured to death by slow dissection over the course of a year, only to be brought back to life to repeat the process, then have their souls locked in a battery meant to power a lamp for all eternity.

The point, however, is that it will never happen as long as the purebloods are running things.

Justice it must be seen to be fare and detached. Torturing someone to death is neither justice or fare. IMO.

Granteed part of me is still inclind to give the Death Eaters adult males all a date with the Turk (an impaling stake) sell the women and girls at acution. And send the boys to be made into harem attendants.

Infants to be blood adopted out into other families.

 

[Chuckg]

I second the vote for a relatively quick and painless death; the eternity of torture part will be handled when they arrive at their afterlife destination.

 

[Ninsaneja]

Is the queen actually that involved in RL british politics?

 

[Glimmervoid]

Is the queen actually that involved in RL british politics?

No, not at all. Her sole real remaining power is to be informed. That is, people tell her what is going on. She gets boxes of papers each day to go through and meets with the Prime Minister each week. She might also advice the Prime Minster on something but this advice is always in private and is only that advice.

She also has a number of powers theoretically invested in her (Royal Prerogatives) but again these are never used on her own recognizance and always on the advise of her government. (e.g. the Prime Minster says use X power and she does so).

If she breaks these rules you get a constitutional crisis, where the rules the goverment legaly is run by are at odds with with the rules it actually is). Modern monarchs have always steered very clear of anything like a constitutional crisis because the most likely result is getting rid of the monarchy.

To take zeebee1 quote here as an example.

Technically the queen runs things. She doesn't get involved because she believes the Ministry is doing it's job. But if she inquires on how the war criminals are being punished they will have to be harsh.

If the queen did try to interfere in the justice system she would be in direct breach of the laws (not merely the unwritten constitution).

The Queen is the fount of all justice but she does not, and indeed legal cannot, take any part in it.

In fact, if the queen did break all president and said 'punish X more', the magical government would have no real choice but to do the exact opposite and stick to the guns even if they would ordinary have changed there mind, in order to not start constitutional crisis.

Another point is can the muggel government just decide that the magical government is doing it wrong and take over. The answer to that is maybe.

If the magical government was established by Primary legislation (and that primary legislation did not have a kill switch built in) then it would need primary legislation to remove. That means a full act of parliament. Now, at this time (1998 ish) the Labour party has just taken over parliament with a large majority, so if they needed to, they could probably pass the law.

If on the other hand, the magical government is just a (semi-hidden) government department (the minister of which has been granted the power to pass secondary legislation), then it could likely be done entirely by the Prime Minster (formally by the Queen by acting on the Prime Minsters adive).

A third possibility is that magical Britain is a self governing, independent territory (with the minister of magic having some title like 'Magical Governor General'). If this is the case there's not much that can be done. Once granted a parliament (or similar), the Queen cannot just decide to remove it (there case law about that but I can't find it at the moment).

Or at least that's my understanding of how it works.

 

[Tentrees]

YES! Thats what I was loking for!

So it all dependent on if the Magicals ever had their government formalized buy the Crown/Parliment for any of the three cases listed.

I can see a fourth case. The Ministry and the Wizengamot simply being a case of the magicals seperating without any legal intraments. With contact with the muggle government kept to a minimium but required by treaty or agreements.
The meeting in book six between the prime minister and the new minister of/for magic makes me think that it may be a very muddled and tenuois contact.

I thank you for the read on the Queens modern roll in Great Britian. Though I did think that the Queen had to sign the laws and that she could make comments/give advice. As you said it was most likely in private. I know Queen Victori's Prime miniester used to meeet with the opposition parties at her teas and dinners so that they could work out deals under her neutral auspices. At least thats my read of history.

 

[Prince Charon]

Another point is can the muggel government just decide that the magical government is doing it wrong and take over. The answer to that is maybe.

If the magical government was established by Primary legislation (and that primary legislation did not have a kill switch built in) then it would need primary legislation to remove. That means a full act of parliament. Now, at this time (1998 ish) the Labour party has just taken over parliament with a large majority, so if they needed to, they could probably pass the law.

If on the other hand, the magical government is just a (semi-hidden) government department (the minister of which has been granted the power to pass secondary legislation), then it could likely be done entirely by the Prime Minster (formally by the Queen by acting on the Prime Minsters adive).

A third possibility is that magical Britain is a self governing, independent territory (with the minister of magic having some title like 'Magical Governor General'). If this is the case there's not much that can be done. Once granted a parliament (or similar), the Queen cannot just decide to remove it (there case law about that but I can't find it at the moment).

Or at least that's my understanding of how it works.

... or, it could be that the magical gov't was established by Royal Charter or similar, well before the monarchy lost so much of its effective power, and thus the Queen can legally take direct control, because Parliament was more of an advisory body way back then, or didn't even exist.

Don't think in modern terms, think in historical ones.

 

[Tentrees]

Another point is can the muggel government just decide that the magical government is doing it wrong and take over. The answer to that is maybe.

If the magical government was established by Primary legislation (and that primary legislation did not have a kill switch built in) then it would need primary legislation to remove. That means a full act of parliament. Now, at this time (1998 ish) the Labour party has just taken over parliament with a large majority, so if they needed to, they could probably pass the law.

If on the other hand, the magical government is just a (semi-hidden) government department (the minister of which has been granted the power to pass secondary legislation), then it could likely be done entirely by the Prime Minster (formally by the Queen by acting on the Prime Minsters adive).

A third possibility is that magical Britain is a self governing, independent territory (with the minister of magic having some title like 'Magical Governor General'). If this is the case there's not much that can be done. Once granted a parliament (or similar), the Queen cannot just decide to remove it (there case law about that but I can't find it at the moment).

Or at least that's my understanding of how it works.

... or, it could be that the magical gov't was established by Royal Charter or similar, well before the monarchy lost so much of its effective power, and thus the Queen can legally take direct control, because Parliament was more of an advisory body way back then, or didn't even exist.

Don't think in modern terms, think in historical ones.

Which makes a lot of sense for those fics in which the Queen starts taking a direct roll as there are or would be existing magical contracts/oaths between the Wizengamot/Ministry/Magical Nobility and the House of Windsor via say the treaty recognizing William of Normandy as King after Hastings.

 

[zeebee1]

She doesn't have to break the rules. I really doubt that the real British misitry has no control, they just tend to let things go on their own.

 

[Happy Person]

She doesn't have to break the rules. I really doubt that the real British misitry has no control, they just tend to let things go on their own.

Why?

A single half competent wizard could take over the muggle world in under a week.

Muggle wank is probably the least believable and most annoying cliche/trope in the Harry Potter fandom.

Invisibility+Apparition+Impero+Obliviation

That is all it takes to rule the muggle world unless other magic users stop you; and other magic users aren't going to be stopping the magical government from keeping the muggles both ignorant and out of the way.

 

[Tentrees]

Aside from a few of the murderuing gits or the AUrors name one half-way compotant wizard or witch?

 

[Chuckg]

Its all fun and games until you run into the person strong-willed enough to beat your Imperius curse.

Heck, from 'Board of Governors' over on the preview forum, we have this.

ôYou donÆt understand the power of the Imperius boy!ö Lucius spat.

ôCertainly he does Malfoy,ö Daphne Greengrass said dismissively. You and your cowardly brethren were fairly free with that particular curse. I believe one of your fellow Imperius victims managed to hold Neville in thrall for almost thirty seconds before he through them off. I mean really, even if we were to believe the fiction that all of you were enslaved by the unforgivable curse, which should still disqualify you from service on the board on the basis of being weak minded fools.ö

 

[Tentrees]

Its all fun and games until you run into the person strong-willed enough to beat your Imperius curse.

Heck, from 'Board of Governors' over on the preview forum, we have this.

ôYou donÆt understand the power of the Imperius boy!ö Lucius spat.

ôCertainly he does Malfoy,ö Daphne Greengrass said dismissively. You and your cowardly brethren were fairly free with that particular curse. I believe one of your fellow Imperius victims managed to hold Neville in thrall for almost thirty seconds before he through them off. I mean really, even if we were to believe the fiction that all of you were enslaved by the unforgivable curse, which should still disqualify you from service on the board on the basis of being weak minded fools.ö

And Daphne sinks the killing barb.

Which just goes to show you that Occlumency should be taught early and that the Imperious curse defense can and should be strictly inveestigated.

Everyone knows the only reason Lucious wasn't rotting in Azkabahn after the first war was becasue of the amount of galleons he spread around.

I love the move by the Light side to marginalize the Purists.

My only concern is the limits needed to keep the Light from going to far.

Balence yes. Permenant victory is a pipe dream. Even in America the pendulum between Civil Liberties and oppression swings mighty wide.

 

[Lord of Bones]

If the Imperius Curse is so easily thrown off, why is it an Unforgiveable?

The simple answer is that it takes a phenomenal strength of will and conviction in oneself to throw off. Fanon gibberish aside, we've only seen Harry throw it off - and one cast by Voldemort himself no less. Maybe Lucius was on to something when he pleaded the Imperius curse; maybe the reason that the Ministry accepted it was not that every one of the Death Eaters were phenomenally rich pillars of society, but because the Imperius curse is very difficult to throw off, and Lucius knew that.

Dumbledore, Harry and maybe a few others (Moody?) have the sort of strength of will that does allow for resistance to the Imperius Curse. It's effectively the trend in the Unforgiveables; the Cruciatus causes pain so horrible that it drives its victims insane with agony, the AK tears out its target's soul and the Imprius crushes the target's will and makes it the caster's puppet.

@Chuckg - If you're going to pull a fanfic as proof, I can pull excerpts from others that show Imperius'd targets being forced to rape, slaughter and butcher their families. Are they weak-minded as well?

@Tentrees - aside from...nobody really, name one halfway competent Muggle.

Seriously, why do you people act as though the Imperius is a walk in the park to throw off? We've only seen Harry do it, and I'm desperately wishing that Lucius Imperio's Daphne, forces her to commit atrocity after atrocity and then dispel the curse.

Lucius: Who's weak-minded now, Miss Greengrass?

 

[Chuckg]

Yes, yes, we all know that the Imperius is easily cast, never fails except when used on Harry Potter, and makes the wielder of said curse an invincible force of governmental takeover.

Never mind that Yaxley said that he was only able to Imperius curse Pius Thicknesse -- a guy never stated to possess any special amount of mental invincibility -- only "with difficulty and after great effort" (and that is a direct quote). Or that in OotP, Augustus Rookwood reports to Voldemort that Lucius Malfoy failed to keep Bode under the Imperius because Lucius had ordered Bode to do something that he knew he couldn't do. Bode had to be murdered to keep the Death Eater's secrets, the Death Eaters weren't able to simply re-Imperius him even though the man was in the friggin' Spell Damage ward at Saint Mungo's.

Note also that except when used vs. schoolkids, virtually every single successful use of the Imperius Curse on record was vs. an unaware subject, one caught off-guard and unable to focus their willpower against it before they were hit. And even when caught by surprise and under the influence before they could concentrate, some exceptionally strong-willed people, or people given orders they were that adamantly opposed to, could still break free.

So the Death Eaters' pleas that they were successfully kept under Imperius for years(*), even to the point of being compelled to commit multiple murders, rapes, atrocities, and other things that (if their pleas were true) they would have found morally abhorrent in the extreme, is bogus. Only bribery or gross stupidity explains the pleas being accepted.

As for 'show me a single competent muggle, then!' -- that is a ridiculous request, and you know it. 99+% of the page space in the books is with the camera focus on the wizarding world. The muggle world, outside of Casa Dursley, is barely even glimpsed at. The muggle world is not even a tertiary, let alone a secondary, concern of the storyline, while the wizarding world is what the books are primarily dealing with. So, saying that 'X is not shown in the wizarding world' is a very strong indicator that X doesn't exist, period, given the vast amount of pages spent exploring it -- but saying that 'X is not shown in the muggle world' proves nothing, because the books aren't even looking at the muggle world to begin with. Outside of one brief scene in the PM's office, but the sole purpose of that scene was to explain WHY the muggle world was being plot-sidelined.


(*) I mean, did they even explain who was CASTING all those Imperius Curses, if all of them were supposedly victims of? Voldemort's good, but him and Bellatrix ain't holding down 20+ Imperius Curses each all by themselves. Their stories were patently unworkable.