Harry Potter Charging sheets.

[Minami]

Exceptionally strong willed people, yes might be able to break the curse. The few examples we saw of a struggle, Pious and Bode were both ministry workers.

Common public would probably be completely blameless in falling under it. Since it isn't a spell someone prepares to experience 24/7. Which makes it such a good defense for death eaters. They cursed me in the back while I was walking down the street. They imperiused me in the middle of a heated battle to protect my family! Imperiused people don't act like dummies, they're capable of normal conversations and such like Pius proved in deathly hallows. So you can't say something like they didn't act like a imperiused victim.

Since Harry, himself took several times while being prepared before he could throw it off himself and in the graveyard Voldemort, made him bow before he could throw off the curse. It's hard, even when you are prepared.

(*) I mean, did they even explain who was CASTING all those Imperius Curses, if all of them were supposedly victims of? Voldemort's good, but him and Bellatrix ain't holding down 20+ Imperius Curses each all by themselves. Their stories were patently unworkable.

Why not? We've never heard of a magical limit outside of fanon? A wizard has never been seen running out of magic or anything like that.

 

[Chuckg]

Ministry workers are hardly guaranteed to be either strong wizards or strong-willed people, witness some of them that we've seen. So simply pointing out that Thicknesse and Bode were Ministry employees is not enough, by itself, to establish them as paragons of will. (That one was in the DMLE and the other an Unspeakable is enough to establish them as above the common run of wizarding civilians, yes, the question is how far above. We've seen some fairly average Aurors, too.)

Granted that your average yob is going to be fairly secure Imperius bait (witness Stan Shunpike), the reverse is also true; resisting the Imperius is not 'only Harry Potter need apply', it seems possible for any reasonably strong-willed person not caught off guard.

Bode's example is of particular note, as he originally succumbed, but then snapped free after being forced to try something impossible for him to accomplish -- that's an indicator that the difficulty of keeping someone under Imperius increases directly the more you try to force them to do things that they are strongly opposed to, or would get severely hurt by. i.e., morally abhorrent or self-destructive commands take more effort to impose than subtle suggestions.

Which makes the Imperius less 'absolute mind control win' and more like other fictional forms of telepathic suggestion and hypnosis -- willpower counts, and so does phrasing the suggestions to more cleverly work with, not against, the subject's own inclinations.

As for the particular case of the Death Eater claims -- note that the Imperius has mentally damaging effects if the subject is kept under it for very prolonged periods of time. I mean, not that Barty Crouch Jr. was the picture of mental health going in, but Barty Crouch Sr. was stable going in and a mental wreck coming out.

 

[bissek]

Still, claiming to have been under the Imperius for years is tantamount to admitting that you can't resist the spell, which effectively means that you publicly admit that you can't trust your own actions. Despite that, Fudge allows a man who made such a statement to be one of his key advisors.

 

[Tentrees]

Still, claiming to have been under the Imperius for years is tantamount to admitting that you can't resist the spell, which effectively means that you publicly admit that you can't trust your own actions. Despite that, Fudge allows a man who made such a statement to be one of his key advisors.

There is a very simple reason Fudge has Malfoy around.

Galleons. Malfoy if not the major financial supporter for Fudge, then he either led the coiliton or was one of the major supporters that put Fudge in office. he could have also opened the door to Fudge for those pureblood functions that he would not normally have been invited to.

So its simple. Galleons and social prestige used to back a simpering idiot like Fudge gives Malfoy a great deal of political power. Especially in league with the pureblood factions that supported Voldemort and sutiably worded utterences that allowed Malfoy to play on Fudges weak nature to pass Malfoy's agenda. .

 

[bissek]

Still, in a rational world, any individual shown to be vulnerable to mind control spells would be required to take training and prove to have developed a resistance to such spells before being allowed anywhere near government decision making processes or anything resembling classified information, with such access being permanently revoked if it happens a second time.

Key word here is 'rational', which the society JKR created definitely isn't.

 

[Chuckg]

They would at least develop some type of charm to detect the Imperius Curse in use, and regularly cast it on people in critical positions, yes.

 

[Garahs]

Still, claiming to have been under the Imperius for years is tantamount to admitting that you can't resist the spell, which effectively means that you publicly admit that you can't trust your own actions. Despite that, Fudge allows a man who made such a statement to be one of his key advisors.

Only Harry was able to partially resist. And if I remember right, he still went halfway through the command before throwing it off. I don't believe there is a whole ocean of competent wizards that governments can afford to exclude all applicants except that 1% that can throw off the curse.

They would at least develop some type of charm to detect the Imperius Curse in use, and regularly cast it on people in critical positions, yes.

Then assuming they didn't already try creating such a charm, you imperious the people who cast it, and have them imperious everyone else and continue the chain.

 

[Tentrees]

Like Garqahs has pointed out security in a magical setting is a nightmare.

Worse when its not a foriegn power but your own political factions both within and outside of your government.

 

[Lady Salazar]

Imperius curse, meet Insanity defense.

How do you know there's no 'Imperius rehabilitation' course? Just becase we don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. How about we so-called 'Harry Potter fans' try looking for explanations instead of looking for plot holes for once?

~Sal

 

[Chuckg]

Because its the author's job to think up and write explanations, not ours. What's the definition of a plot hole, again?

Sure, its a fun mental exercise -- sometimes -- to come up with fan speculation things that fill in plot holes, but that doesn't change the fact that the holes were there and needed filling to begin with.

 

[Lady Salazar]

As a fanfic author, I usually expect my readers to be able to figure something out for themselves. JKR has said the same, pretty much, given the firestorm over the whole 'How'd he get the map back from Moody?' issue. Honestly - and, clarifying, I'm not saying this to sound like a bitch - if you can't use a little common sense and imagination, I don't care what your opinion is in the first place.

That said, there's a point where you simply have to leave it to the reader. GoF and beyond were long enough as they were; if JKR had to specifically explain every minute detail, there'd be another seven books.

And seven times as many people accusing her of teaching witchcraft, likely. Sometimes I wonder if her vagueness in magical mechanics owes something to them. Moot point.

~Sal

 

[zeebee1]

The readers should think for themselves, but only to a point. The author has a responsibility as well.

 

[t_gebhardt]

Key word here is 'rational', which the society JKR created definitely isn't.

Have you ever lived in one? The rational world only exist in the heads of philosophers.

 

[Chuckg]

The problem, Salazar, is that JKR seems to have left goddamn near everything substantial to the reader. The sheer mountain of fanfic, fan commentary, and analysis re: things in the Harry Potter setting that don't make sense didn't all spontaneously pop into existence out of nothing, after all. 'The reader must be able to use their brains' is not the same thing as 'The author doesn't have to work at it'.

I mean, forex, look at Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. Are there things the reader wasn't given an explicit explanation for? Yup. Chief among them being why the Eagles didn't just fly the party to Mordor. But even those are things have sufficient information provided in the text that the reader can deduce the reason why it didn't happen(*), even if no one character in the text actually gives a speech on the topic. Not to mention, of course, the fact that in LotR, when we need to know a piece of background to understand why the hell something important is happening, we are actually told that piece of background. The only real exception to the above I can think of is Tom Bombadil, and meh, you could just skip that entire chapter without changing the story much anyway.

This is as opposed to Rowling where not only do we not get explanations, we don't even get sufficient data. Leaving things open for the reader to figure out still implies that the reader's been given enough clues that they actually have some other basis for speculation than pure guesswork, but that ain't happening here. Things happen in the HPverse because they are necessary to happen to make her plot move in the direction she wants it to go, and not enough attention was paid into making those things fit into a consistent larger framework so that the setting actually feels like an organic, integrated setting as opposed to just a hodgepodge of stuff.

Heck, look at the Imperius argument above; we're disagreeing over the meaning of two obscure clues provided in Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix re: Imperius resistance simply because that's all the data we have. So much as a basic outline of the Imperius spell and what its capabilities are is never so much as hinted at. Its just there to whip out some mind control when the villains need to, and hence we get the 'no limits fallacy'(**).



(*) Notably, the part where Sauron getting direct line-of-sight to the Ring-Bearer almost destroys the entire Quest right then and there, the one time it happens on Amon Hen. And if that happened just from him standing on a hilltop too close to Mordor, let's not try to imagine what happens if he actually flew near Mordor.

(**) No limits fallacy: the presumption that a poorly documented phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity, or, more plainly, that because no limits have ever been tested on-screen, that means no limits can possibly exist. An example would be taking the fact that hypothetical character X, in his very infrequent appearances so far, has shown the ability to bounce bullets off of his face, and from that and that alone immediately jumping to the conclusion that he's totally invulnerable on everything up to and including nukes. i.e., jumping the conclusion from 'greater than human durability' (which is a known fact) to 'totally invulnerable'. Or, in the above case, jumping from the conclusion of 'can control most minds with a good but not total degree of reliability' (known fact) to 'can infallibly control anyone's mind without effort' (assumption).

 

[Lord of Bones]

Sauron does not get LoS to Frodo near Amon Hen. In the novel, Sauron senses the Ring but cannot pinpoint the location - his will is explicitly described as touching various areas near Amon Hen, and Frodo removes the Ring before Sauron's psychic assault touches him.

 

[Chuckg]

Are we seriously going to quibble this much? All right, fine, you want to go there, we'll go there.

Rereading the passage, Frodo had LoS to Barad-Dur from the top of Amon Hen, which is precisely what attracted Sauron's attention... the instant Frodo looked at him, Sauron knew he was under observation by the Ring-Bearer, and knew within a definite area where the Ring-Bearer was. Sauron then immediately turned his gaze away from where it had been focused at the time onto that area, and commenced a more detailed search. Frodo missed being spotted by instants (Sauron's gaze having already made it to Amon Lhaw and then Tol Brandir, i.e., right across the river from where Frodo was sitting and then to the middle of the river), and if he hadn't jumped down off the Seat of Seeing and hid under his cloak, and then took off the Ring, Frodo would have been nailed.

So the precedent was entirely set: Ring-Bearer + line-of-sight to the Barad-Dur + Sauron's attention not wholly obsessed elsewhere = Sauron will very rapidly know you're coming. Which is why their approach to Mordor was low and in the weeds, instead of high and in the sky.

If you really want, I'll type in the entire damn section of the book, but can we get back on-topic to Harry Potter instead?

 

[Prince Charon]

(**) No limits fallacy: the presumption that a poorly documented phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity, or, more plainly, that because no limits have ever been tested on-screen, that means no limits can possibly exist.á? An example would be taking the fact that hypothetical character X, in his very infrequent appearances so far, has shown the ability to bounce bullets off of his face, and from that and that alone immediately jumping to the conclusion that he's totally invulnerable on everything up to and including nukes.á i.e., jumping the conclusion from 'greater than human durability' (which is a known fact) to 'totally invulnerable'.á? Or, in the above case, jumping from the conclusion of 'can control most minds with a good but not total degree of reliability' (known fact) to 'can infallibly control anyone's mind without effort' (assumption).

This. Seriously, we know that its possible for more than just Harry to throw off the Imperius, and that once its thrown off, it can be problematic to reapply, hence the death of Bode. We have no information on how strong-willed you have to be, and we have no information on how strong-willed Bode or Thicknesse were.

 

[Lord of Bones]

Are we seriously going to quibble this much?? All right, fine, you want to go there, we'll go there.

Rereading the passage, Frodo had LoS to Barad-Dur from the top of Amon Hen, which is precisely what attracted Sauron's attention... the instant Frodo looked at him, Sauron knew he was under observation by the Ring-Bearer, and knew within a definite area where the Ring-Bearer was.? Sauron then immediately turned his gaze away from where it had been focused at the time onto that area, and commenced a more detailed search.? Frodo missed being spotted by instants (Sauron's gaze having already made it to Amon Lhaw and then Tol Brandir, i.e., right across the river from where Frodo was sitting and then to the middle of the river), and if he hadn't jumped down off the Seat of Seeing and hid under his cloak, and then took off the Ring, Frodo would have been nailed.

So the precedent was entirely set: Ring-Bearer + line-of-sight to the Barad-Dur + Sauron's attention not wholly obsessed elsewhere = Sauron will very rapidly know you're coming.? Which is why their approach to Mordor was low and in the weeds, instead of high and in the sky.

If you really want, I'll type in the entire damn section of the book, but can we get back on-topic to Harry Potter instead?

Frodo ... was already far away, leaping blindly up the path to the hill-top. Terror and grief shook him, seeing in his thought the mad fierce face of Boromir, and his burning eyes.
Soon he came out alone on the summit of Amon Hen, and halted, gasping for breath. He saw as through a mist a wide flat circle, paved with mighty flags, and surrounded with a crumbling battlement; and in the middle, set upon four carven pillars, was a high seat, reached by a stair of many steps. Up he went and sat upon the ancient chair, feeling like a lost child that had clambered upon the throne of mountain-kings.
At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: ... There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of N·menor. Eastward he looked into wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored. Northward he looked, and the Great River lay like a ribbon beneath him, and the Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth. Westward he looked and saw the broad pastures of Rohan; and Orthanc, the pinnacle of Isengard, like a black spike. Southward he looked, and below his very feet the Great River curled like a toppling wave and plunged over the falls of Rauros into a foaming pit; a glimmering rainbow played upon the fume. And Ethir Anduin he saw, the mighty delta of the River, and myriads of sea-birds whirling like a white dust in the sun, and beneath them a green and silver sea, rippling in endless lines.
But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. ...All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion. Then turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed. and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul. and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-d¹r, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir. He threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
He heard himself crying out: "Never, never!" Or was it: "Verily I come, I come to you?" He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: "Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!"
The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree.

Sauron didn't have LoS. He knew the general area, but did not precisely know Frodo's location.

EDIT: That is, Frodo did have LoS to the Barad-dur, but Sauron did not have LoS to Frodo. He was aware of Frodo the instant he felt Frodo's gaze on the Dark Tower, yes, but he had to play 'pin the finger on the hobbit' to get an exact location.

 

[Chuckg]

*sighs*

LOS is mutual. If you can see the enemy, then he can see you. Note: "can", not necessarily "will". So, two people had LOS to each other, but only one made his perception roll. This does not change the fact that a clear visual path extended between the two individuals in question. And that if Frodo had remained in positon just a few seconds longer, Sauron would have pinpointed him exactly, which is why Frodo could not dare to maintain LOS to the Barad-Dur for any period of time. Which kinda rules out flying there!

Now, can we get back to Harry Potter? Or are you so out of arguments that you have to keep picking this nit?

 

[Munch]

LoS = line of sight.

assuming you don't have a magic one way mirror, and that you don't have something helping (say, a scope)?

if you can see them

they can see you

just because Sauron missed him didn't mean that he hadn't been able to see (metaphorically speaking at least; I'm not rock solid on whether he actually SEES things or just magic-senses them or fucking whatever) him; Frodo's taking off the ring was what made Sauron miss him. otherwise, presumably the big floating eye in the sky would have unleashed an unholy can of whoop-ass on the whiny little shit.

tl;dr chuck is right, this discussion is stupid, any retard who knows what the hell the LoS acronym actually means would know that. moving on.

the idea behind this topic is flippin' awesome. Too bad it never happened, but it'd be very satisfying closure to read a scene where they actually get sentences like that, and magic h4x don't let them escape.

 

[zeebee1]

I remember a story like that. They were given three choices. Imprisonment, death, or a potion. Well, I'm not sure about the first two, but I know there were three choices. The potion made them relive everything they did while giving them a conscience.