Ranma ½ Destroying all Katsujin-ken Users

[Jetflash]

It is the stated desire of the users of Satsujin-ken, the Killing Fist; namely Yami and its disciple group Yomi; to destroy (read: KILL) all practitioners of Katsujin-ken, the Saving Fist; namely Ryouzanpaku and their disciple, Kenichi.

Yes, this is another suggestion for a History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi cross, but a little more serious.

During the introduction arc for Boris Ivanov, members of Yomi went around parts of Japan, including Tokyo, challenging and decimating Dojos. When all the members met up, they complained about the weakness of said schools.

Since Ranma has shown a general aversion to killing his opponents, even ones trying to kill him, I think it is safe to have him fall on the side of the Katsujin-ken schools, along with the Tendo Dojo.

What if one of the members had some trouble?

Like, say, they killed (or even just severely injured) Akane Tendo during their challenge of the Tendo Dojo? And Ranma arrived just a little too late?

Of course, Ranma would have to get involved in the conflict, one way or the other. But where normally one might have him and the rest of the NWC show up, throwing energy blasts and basically being super-Ranma from the end of the series, here's where this version becomes a little darker:

Who says that all the members of the Ranma cast would fall on his side?

I can easily see the Amazons as if not members of Yami, at least supporters of it.

I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Ryoga decides to join them (though this would only work if Akane survived, and they managed to convince him that it was right to do that to an opponent).


However, to make things more believable, the stories have to join before any of the major ki techniques are introduced. I'll allow the Bakusai Tenketsu and the Katchuu Tenshin Amaguriken, because we've seen techniques in HSDK that are very close to those. I might allow in the Hiryuu Shoten Ha, since the Soul of Ice part might fit well with the Sei- style principles.

However, if the stories join too soon, the Amazons might not teach it to Ranma.


And before anyone harps on about how "if the Amazons supported Yami, wouldn't they have gotten rid of Ranma earlier," it's for the same reason the first two Yami masters tried to capture Kenichi, and why Luke Skywalker was brought before the Emperor, and not killed.


I think this could work. Anyone else?

 

[Dumbledork]

Interesting concept. I'd read it.

 

[nuclear death frog]

I think it's generally doable and that it could be interesting.

Ryouga is kind of a wild-card here, potentially. If Akane gets hurt/killed after he starts being attracted to her, he may want vengeance on whoever hurt/killed her as well as on Ranma (on principle).

Genma is another interesting question. Could this situation cause him to relent on the forbidden techniques and make him train Ranma in them? They are very powerful techniques and might be very useful.

Ranma at the beginning of the manga is still extremely high-rank disciple though, at the least.

 

[Jetflash]

I think it's generally doable and that it could be interesting.

Ryouga is kind of a wild-card here, potentially. If Akane gets hurt/killed after he starts being attracted to her, he may want vengeance on whoever hurt/killed her as well as on Ranma (on principle).

Genma is another interesting question. Could this situation cause him to relent on the forbidden techniques and make him train Ranma in them? They are very powerful techniques and might be very useful.

Ranma at the beginning of the manga is still extremely high-rank disciple though, at the least.

That's the point. From what we see, the members of Yomi have little to no trouble with the other Dojo they challenge at that point. If they had another target than Kenichi, what would happen?

About Genma... probably not, unless Ranma got his ass kicked first by, say, Kanou Shou or someone. I could see Genma deciding that parts of each school should be taught to Ranma, but probably not the rest; as I said, I'd like to try to keep the ranged ki attacks out of it, which includes the Kijin Raishuu Dan.

EDIT: And what about the D of D? Does Ranma go alone? With a team? Who would be on that team? Etc.

 

[Revan]

The problem I'm having with this is trying to figure out Ranma's strength in comparison to Yomi's; for all intents and purposes, we don't see him improve at all in the realm of RL martial arts throughout the series, it is all in the realm of ki techniques. Following that line of thought, Ranma could been seen as being a master since there is very little use of 'ki' in HSDK.

As for the Amazons, I honestly see them as being outside of this conflict; I get the feeling that they have members who practice both the Katsujin and the Satsujin. I also get the feeling that they simply do not care about this conflict between Yami and Ryuuzanpaku.

On Ryoga, he is definitely on the way, IIRC, of becoming a user of the Satsujin; whether or not he sides with Yami depends on whether or not he is infatuated with Akane yet. If yes, then they would have to spin the story if they wanted him on their side (who is to say that Yami even WANTS Ryoga in the first place?). If no, then he might join them if only to go after Ranma.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Well, Genma's developed a "martial art for sustaining life." Granted it was sustaining your own life by stealing so you could eat, but still. I generally think that Anything Goes is a very Katsujinken style.

Basically I don't think Anything Goes, as a style, would concern itself very much with "Killing" vs "Saving;" the goal of Anything Goes is "Stealing." Stealing techniques, stealing money, stealing food; Anything Goes is the power to take what you want from whoever has it and the power to deflect repercussions.

Really, I think it would be funnier and more true to character if the two styles try to fob Anything Goes off on the other side; remember, whomever is aligned with Anything Goes has to deal with the Dread Master.

 

[nuclear death frog]

Ranma has very high levels of strength and speed even at the beginning of his series. In the first fight with Ryouga he completely shattered a thick granite washbasin-type fixture with a kick that wasn't even aimed at the fixture itself; he also, as a girl, picked up Ryouga's umbrella one-handed and carried Akane at the same time, and started doing kangaroo-style jumps ten to fifteen feet in the air as a way to get Akane away from the battle. This is the same umbrella that Akane, who can tear apart stone birdbaths and lift full refrigerators over her head with relative ease, can't even lift at all. In the beginning of the Bakusai Tenketsu fight with Ryouga, not all that far into the series and well before any ranged ki attacks, Ranma kicked Ryouga into a cliffside so hard that the cliff literally shattered.

On speed, Ranma when furious punched Mikado Sanzennin more than 500 times in just a few seconds. He is also casually able to run up telephone poles on pure speed, or avoid Tatewaki Kuno's super air-pressure bokuto thrusts and zip into grappling distance with Tatewaki from a dozen feet away or more without anyone seeing him move at all. There are other feats, but these are early and come to mind easiest.

 

[Jetflash]

Ranma has very high levels of strength and speed even at the beginning of his series. In the first fight with Ryouga he completely shattered a thick granite washbasin-type fixture with a kick that wasn't even aimed at the fixture itself; he also, as a girl, picked up Ryouga's umbrella one-handed and carried Akane at the same time, and started doing kangaroo-style jumps ten to fifteen feet in the air as a way to get Akane away from the battle. This is the same umbrella that Akane, who can tear apart stone birdbaths and lift full refrigerators over her head with relative ease, can't even lift at all. In the beginning of the Bakusai Tenketsu fight with Ryouga, not all that far into the series and well before any ranged ki attacks, Ranma kicked Ryouga into a cliffside so hard that the cliff literally shattered.

On speed, Ranma when furious punched Mikado Sanzennin more than 500 times in just a few seconds. He is also casually able to run up telephone poles on pure speed, or avoid Tatewaki Kuno's super air-pressure bokuto thrusts and zip into grappling distance with Tatewaki from a dozen feet away or more without anyone seeing him move at all. There are other feats, but these are early and come to mind easiest.

Well, it's not like we haven't seen some of the higher level characters in HSDK running across water.


@daniel_gudman: I know. However, I am attempting to make this a more serious cross. If I wanted funny, there are a huge number of things I could do: have Kanou Shou see Ranma-chan doing her acrobatics before or after meeting Miu and deciding he has to have her, have Ba Ranka be related to the Amazons, etc. Hell, I even had an odd idea where Ba Kensei is actually an older Ranma, and Ba Sougetsu an older Ryoga, acting as brothers as part of a cover for some odd reason. It wouldn't even be too difficult, really.

But.

I want to try a really serious cross between these two series. I think there's a lot of potential in one.

Unfortunately, I have no experience or skill in writing fight scenes, which would be a necessary part of the story.

I also just got both a Wii and Persona 3: FES for Christmas, and any time I would normally possibly have for writing is being taken up by those two things, along with work, social engagements, etc.

 

[nuclear death frog]

<snip>

Well, it's not like we haven't seen some of the higher level characters in HSDK running across water.

Masters, yes. Disciples? I don't remember any. Is the idea to have Ranma going against the masters, or against the disciples? It's an important distinction.

Hell, I even had an odd idea where Ba Kensei is actually an older Ranma, and Ba Sougetsu an older Ryoga, acting as brothers as part of a cover for some odd reason. It wouldn't even be too difficult, really.

Eh, the resemblance between Ranma and the young Kensei has been brought up before; it was generally agreed that Kensei was too bishounen. And, personally, I don't see any resemblance between Sougetsu and Ryouga at all.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Even if you're doing a serious cross, Happosai is so corrupted telling children to do good deeds was physically painful to him.

But aside from that... I think it's important to remember that having Anything Goes embracing a fundamentally different convention would be very important. The divide between "Satsujin" and "Katsujin" styles is a parochial dispute, only in Japan; Anything Goes isn't such a small-time style as that. In fact, I can see Ranma angering both sides by saying just that and implying that neither side is worth his time.

If we look at the history of martial arts, broadly speaking, Japanese Arts came from the feudal land-owning class, whereas Chinese arts where much more diverse, since they had more political turnover. Thus, the "Satsujin" styles are trying to return to the "purity" of the samurai styles, which were used for fighting wars, winning duels, or killing peasants that offended you. The Chinese arts had a much broader history, being used for war, for self-defense against banditry, and for health development, with the ultimate (essentially Taoist) goal of immortality.

The history of kung-fu is much wider than Japan, and I think it might be a good story for someone (Anything Goes) to remind these two factions that they're only representing themselves and not the broad tradition of all the martial arts.

 

[Jetflash]

Even if you're doing a serious cross, Happosai is so corrupted telling children to do good deeds was physically painful to him.

But aside from that... I think it's important to remember that having Anything Goes embracing a fundamentally different convention would be very important. The divide between "Satsujin" and "Katsujin" styles is a parochial dispute, only in Japan; Anything Goes isn't such a small-time style as that. In fact, I can see Ranma angering both sides by saying just that and implying that neither side is worth his time.

If we look at the history of martial arts, broadly speaking, Japanese Arts came from the feudal land-owning class, whereas Chinese arts where much more diverse, since they had more political turnover. Thus, the "Satsujin" styles are trying to return to the "purity" of the samurai styles, which were used for fighting wars, winning duels, or killing peasants that offended you. The Chinese arts had a much broader history, being used for war, for self-defense against banditry, and for health development, with the ultimate (essentially Taoist) goal of immortality.

The history of kung-fu is much wider than Japan, and I think it might be a good story for someone (Anything Goes) to remind these two factions that they're only representing themselves and not the broad tradition of all the martial arts.

Hmm... Maybe...

I'd need more information about the history of that, first, though. For me, as a history major, getting a big debate like that wrong would be an embarrassment. Can you provide a reference?

I'll look into it as soon as I get some much needed sleep.

 

[daniel_gudman]

For the history bit... well, I'm not aware of anyone that's written a book like "the history of kung fu" or anything like that... hmm, I'll look around for a bit, and come back with some stuff, maybe.

EDIT: Christ, there's so much martial arts garbage on the internet.

Well, okay, Chinese Martial arts on wikipedia doesn't disagree with anything I can recall reading in books or hearing about, and gives a pretty good overview.

Just in China, there's a lot of influence from the way they categorize stuff: it's all very dualistic, yin & yang. Northern and Southern, Hard and Soft are the two biggest polarities I'm aware of.

"Northern" and "Southern" is a divide in approach; the story goes that Northern styles evolved on open plains, while Southern styles evolved in forests and cities. Northern are kicking styles, and Southern are punching styles; the former had to be long range and the latter short-range, see?

"Hard" vs "Soft" is a divide in style; "Hard" are focused on striking the opponent, using a bone like the fist or the elbow, the foot or the knee (the eight strikes); whereas "Soft" styles focus on redirecting energy and throwing/locking techniques. It's said that it takes ten years to become as dangerous with a soft style as two years takes with a hard style, but the hard style isn't as good for your health, because it raises your blood pressure and puts strain on your joints. Additionally, using a hard style becomes more dangerous as you get older.

Japanese martial arts... well, I'm not as familiar with their practices. Most Karate you see is Okinawan, and that's not strictly considered Japanese; using improvised peasant weapons like the nunchaku and sai just makes it obvious. I do know that modern Kendo is super-concerned with certain ritualized ways of preparing, but I only know the one, US-based kendo club my friend was in with any degree of directness.

Aikido is very modern, it was developed... I wanna say 1920s, but I'm pretty sure it was a couple decades earlier than that. Certainly after the civil war that ended in the Meiji restoration.

Actually, that's where a lot of the concerns with preservation came from in Japan. Ownership of swords was strictly regulated in Meiji Japan, so there was a lot of ex-samurai concerned the Bushi heritage would be lost without sword practice. Any time you see an anime or manga with a Japanese martial artist that talks about "returning to the roots and using killing techniques" they're talking about the outlawing of swords that happened in the 1860s.

 

[simonbob]

From what I know of it (and that's a bit) the very first martal arts in China were brought by monks, Shoalin monks, and they spread from there.

In Japan, the unarmed styles were almost all attempts to arm people without needing to give them weapons, which were often restricted to the Samurai class. Thus, Karate, the breaking of boards, to train for the breaking of armor, etc. Up untill recently, at least. This was intended to allow peasants to fight Samurai, even in full armor.

 

[daniel_gudman]

From what I know of it (and that's a bit) the very first martal arts in China were brought by monks, Shoalin monks, and they spread from there.

Yeah, that's the Buddhist tradition... the Shaolin temple is the most famous one, they've been around... 1500 years, I think.

The monasteries where Buddhists were concerned with enlightenment and achieving an inner understanding, that's where a lot of martial arts knowledge came to be focused. Confucius advocated martial arts training for the general populace, and he died centuries before Buddha was born.

At any rate, especially since the Communists purges, there's been a lot of history and diversity lost.

In Japan, the unarmed styles were almost all attempts to arm people without needing to give them weapons, which were often restricted to the Samurai class. Thus, Karate, the breaking of boards, to train for the breaking of armor, etc. Up untill recently, at least. This was intended to allow peasants to fight Samurai, even in full armor.

Well... that's some of the tradition, but that sort of rebellious tradition is only a tiny fraction of the Japanese arts. Even if we consider ninpou, which has no written documentation anyway, most Japanese martial arts were passed down through the han feudal system for hundreds of years.

 

[yakumo fujii]

If we look at the history of martial arts, broadly speaking, Japanese Arts came from the feudal land-owning class, whereas Chinese arts where much more diverse, since they had more political turnover. Thus, the "Satsujin" styles are trying to return to the "purity" of the samurai styles, which were used for fighting wars, winning duels, or killing peasants that offended you. The Chinese arts had a much broader history, being used for war, for self-defense against banditry, and for health development, with the ultimate (essentially Taoist) goal of immortality.

The Yami members aren't all Japanese though.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

the yami menbers aren't even *mostly* japanese.

And, well, ka whatever is a very good example of chinese.

i don't think it has anything to do with being "small time", given that yami is supposed to be an international organization.

 

[daniel_gudman]

I think I'm going to have to point out that the author and all his assistants and editors are Japanese, though. I realize that sort of meta-thought is frowned upon around here... but I was talking about the real world. Maybe in HSDK things are different, but projecting the Satsu/Katsu debate onto the world at large is unconscious Japanese ethnocentrism.

Most Chinese martial arts are probably more concerned with Communist Party approval and the politics of the emerging Chinese Wushu authority.

 

[Christopher Robin]

Doesn't matter, because things in HSDK are different. You have to work inside the universe, so examining the metathought behind it doesn't help at all except for letting you know why things are different.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Doesn't matter, because things in HSDK are different. You have to work inside the universe, so examining the metathought behind it doesn't help at all except for letting you know why things are different.

You have to work inside the universe, so examining the metathought behind it doesn't help at all except for letting you know why things are different.

letting you know why things are different.

Yes, this is what I was driving at.

 

[nuclear death frog]

In my opinion, Ranma's philosophy falls in between the extremes: kill if it's necessary, subdue if it's not. From canon, killing is only necessary if a loved one is in immediate mortal danger and the opponent is too powerful to beat without lethal measures. I don't think this philosophy is *too* unpalatable to katsujin-ken believers, but that's just me and I might be completely wrong. We know that Apachai and Sakaki are "Dou" fighters but are kind enough not to kill their opponents unnecessarily; I take that as some small evidence.

 

[yakumo fujii]

Most Chinese martial arts are probably more concerned with Communist Party approval and the politics of the emerging Chinese Wushu authority.

Bit of a necro, but it's still on the front page.

Maybe most are concerned with that, but we're talking about the best of the best.

I'm sure the Amazons and other martial artists of their level are quaking in their boots at the thought of the Communist party.

While the Amazon village could be destroyed by heavy air strikes, if there are members of the village outside when it happens then the lives of those who ordered the attack are forfeit and they know it. Emperor or the Communist Premier, I'm sure they're all the same in the eye's of Cologne. I wouldn't be surprised if even Mao, a raging egomaniac if there ever was one, was afraid of her.

I do like the idea of Anything Goes being founded on grounds totally different from the katsujin-ken and Satsujin-ken, and Ranma being dismissive of both. Because after all, if Ranma is being offensive and sticking his foot in his mouth, then it just isn't Ranma. Even better that here it would be over something that there's legitimate disagreement with.

 

[pspinler]

If there are members of the village outside when it happens then the lives of those who ordered the attack are forfeit and they know it.

I don't see it. If there's wandering martial artists of the caliber of Ryu or Taro or Ryoga just around, and whole villages of people like Pink and Link or Amazon rivals like the Musk Dynasty, then there's no shortage of highly capable bodyguards for the communists to recruit, draft, or just train from childhood.

-- Pat

 

[yakumo fujii]

If there are members of the village outside when it happens then the lives of those who ordered the attack are forfeit and they know it.

I don't see it. If there's wandering martial artists of the caliber of Ryu or Taro or Ryoga just around, and whole villages of people like Pink and Link or Amazon rivals like the Musk Dynasty, then there's no shortage of highly capable bodyguards for the communists to recruit, draft, or just train from childhood.

-- Pat

Shouldn't the Emperor have been able to do that as well then? But apparently he lived in terror of the Amazons all the same.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Or there's the legendary secret Chinese imperial guard style, the supreme arts united under one roof and taught to dozens of elite body guards.

"The world is a big place." I think if an organization like Yami tried to stir up trouble, the huge diversity of power would emerge to annihilate that threat; really, Anything Goes in this case becomes a symbol for all the styles who have continued to evolve, while the anachronistic Yami are simply angry because their arts have become inferior.

 

[Jetflash]

Or there's the legendary secret Chinese imperial guard style, the supreme arts united under one roof and taught to dozens of elite body guards.

"The world is a big place." I think if an organization like Yami tried to stir up trouble, the huge diversity of power would emerge to annihilate that threat; really, Anything Goes in this case becomes a symbol for all the styles who have continued to evolve, while the anachronistic Yami are simply angry because their arts have become inferior.

Except in HSDK, that's not the case.

At all.

Yami is a worldwide organization with enough military power to take over a country. THe styles they use include the old and anachronistic, and the new mixes of styles. They are everywhere, and very powerful. Your argument is that in "the real world" Yami would be wiped out by a conglomeration of the other groups.

Forget about it. This is not the real world we are discussing. In History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Yami is what I just described, and a major threat.

That is the whole point of the crossover I originally described, before you did your best to destroy the foundation of one of the series that's being crossed.

I hate to do this, but either get with the program, so to speak, or stop posting here. There are other threads where you can describe everything that's wrong with the series if you want to.