Nasuverse divine servant...quite literally

[firestorm]

servants:

we know that they can be divine (gilgamesh).

we know that the more worshippers they have, the more power they have.

we know that they are created from those spirits that transcended humanity and became something more powerful, either heroic (arthuria, hercules) or villainous (medea, medusa).

we know that they must have a 'noble phantasm', an object that conclusively identifies them.

if gilgamesh is a-rank even with only two-thirds divine blood and few worshippers today...

what about a person who is the literal son of god, with a third of the world's population worshipping him?

i mean, of course, jesus.

imagine emiya shirou summoning THIS guy. it would be simple enough, should kiritsugu leave him a necklace with a cross on it as his most treasured posession. he always wears it as a reminder of his objective, gets ambushed by lancer, steps on the summoning circle, poof.

not to mention that his mindset matches very uniquely with jesus's actions as described in the bible...

thoughts?

 

[Ryuugi]

Actually, divine spirits cannot be summoned, which is why Berserker was summoned as a demigod, and not a God.

 

[ttestagr]

And the more worshippers thing doesn't do anything to real gods in the Nasuverse.

 

[TheEcchiSessha]

Heroic Spirits, if remember correctly, get a power boost if they are summoned in their homeland... or something like that. :sisi: It also has nothing to do with worshipers, but with how "well-known" their legend is.

If memory serves me, Bazett summoned Lancer in Ireland and he received a power boost... I think. My lore-fu is a bit weak from lack of practice.

On topic though, only heroic spirits can be summoned. The grail gets totally borked if you try to summon something "bigger". It's like trying to bring in a Saint Bernard through a cat door. The grail was "suppose" to only allows "Heroes" from the Throne of Heroes. Because it was "tainted" in the third war by Avenger, that restriction was slightly "lightened".

As for Jesus, well.... he really wasn't know for his "fighting skillz". Also the Heroic Spirits also fight for the grail for a wish, because they had regrets/wished to change something that happened. I don't think Jesus would fit that description.

~TheEcchiSessha

 

[Avider]

Divine Spirits, Heroic Spirits, they're all a class of elementals.

Heroic Spirits are restricted to humanity. The Fuyuki Holy Grail Wars summoned these, so it's restricted to humanity.

Divine Spirits (Zeus and the rest probably belong to this class) depends on worship. If by "real gods" you mean these, then absolutely human worshipers affect them. If they're no longer worshiped, they're reduced to a lower form of elementals. Or, well, pretty much disappear.

 

[ttestagr]

If I remember right, divinity just doesn't go away. But because they're divine, they don't care about the world or anything on it because they are already perfect. If humanity worships them, they don't give a shi

 

[Avider]

That's...not how it works.

Divine Spirits are just elementals elevated into a higher class because of of the wishes of man. They're not really "god", at least, in the absolute sense of being "perfect", or the Judeo-Christian sense of God.

If humanity stops worshiping them, well, they might not give a shit, but they won't be Divine Spirits anymore.

Anyways, divinity can go away. Gilgamesh, for example, was stripped of his original divinity, and Rider lost most of hers.

 

[firestorm]

sessha, tell that to the poor bastards who were selling stuff in the temple when jesus walked in...epic asskicking.

gilgamesh def wasn't stripped of his...check the game info screen, servant status, archer (gilgamesh), skills, page 3. divinity b (a+). berserker also has divinity a. rider has e-, so meh...and lancer is divinity b.

These entities can still be considered to be Heroic Spirits if they were widely worshipped, respected, or feared in life.

from the type-moon wiki on servants. i'd say jesus qualifies.

 

[sigfried27]

gilgamesh def wasn't stripped of his...check the game info screen, servant status, archer (gilgamesh), skills, page 3. divinity b (a+). berserker also has divinity a. rider has e-, so meh...and lancer is divinity b.

The parentheses after Gilgamesh's divinity ranking is what is saying that he had his divinity stripped from him. His rank would be A+, but because he pissed off the gods, they lowered his rank down to B basically. Putting that in only works against your statement.

The question of wether it would be possible or not can vary based on what one might believe from a religious standpoint. What we do know is that full divinity can not be summoned. Gilgamesh and Heracles are basically considered the closest to divinity that can be summoned. Avenger is an example of the fact that full divinity can not be summoned. The attempt was made to summon Angra Mainyu. It failed because that summoning would be full divinity, so the closest alternative was chosen in Avenger, a random villager who had all the worlds evil blamed on him.

Though question of possibility or not, the idea itself just sounds rather dull, and has nothing thought out past the typical "man, wouldn't it be cool if so-and-such was summoned as a serant" ideas.

 

[shiki]

Nope. I'm beginning to think you are either a troll or didn't research properly.

Jesus doesn't qualify because he is divine. The other posters explained it better than I can, so I defer to them.

If they (divine beings/gods) could be summoned, why would they fight for the HG anyways? It would already be within their power to grant whatever they want without the HG's help.

 

[Avider]

sessha, tell that to the poor bastards who were selling stuff in the temple when jesus walked in...epic asskicking.

gilgamesh def wasn't stripped of his...check the game info screen, servant status, archer (gilgamesh), skills, page 3. divinity b (a+). berserker also has divinity a. rider has e-, so meh...and lancer is divinity b.

These entities can still be considered to be Heroic Spirits if they were widely worshipped, respected, or feared in life.

from the type-moon wiki on servants. i'd say jesus qualifies.

Do you even understand what you just quoted?

It is to be noted that originally, the Servant system was designed to summon only the souls of "true" heroes - benevolent, honorable, and selfless protectors of humanity and justice. But since the corruption of the Holy Grail in the third Holy Grail War, evil spirits can be summoned. These entities can still be considered to be Heroic Spirits if they were widely worshipped, respected, or feared in life.

"These entities" refers to "evil spirits". If you want to make an argument that Jesus is an "evil spirits"...

More-over, "evil spirits" refers to Reverse Heroes, not Divine Spirits.

 

[TheEcchiSessha]

Nope. I'm beginning to think you are either a troll or didn't research properly.

I'm beginning to think you are either a troll or didn't research properly.

beginning to think you are a troll

think you are a troll

a troll



C Wut I did thar?

Let the thread die. Nothing productive is gonna come from taking this any farther.

You hit the nail on the head, shiki.

~TheEcchiSessha

 

[Ray]

Technically, Jesus before his crucifixion is about as much of a demigod as Hercules is. Does it justify the idea? Nah, not really, but it's completely fucking ridiculous outside of crack, anyways, and guess what: crack doesn't have rules.

And stop crying troll over everything, people. You sound like whiny bitches.

 

[Ryuugi]

Even as crack, it would be ridiculously hard to make a fic about this idea without causing a shit-storm.

 

[marthf1]

So? That stops no one in the Naruto section or TeflonBlooger (?).

 

[nick012000]

To be fair, Jesus is wholy Man and wholy God, and he was ressurrected in the flesh after his death. It might well be possible. He's not the type that would fight, though; he'd probably be a rather pacifistic Caster. I suppose he might be a Saber, though; his words are his sword. Shirou tends to be more serious than Jesus was, though.

He'd probably beat the shit out of Kirei Kotomine once he finds out about the whole "destroy the world" thing, though, and he'd probaby have issues with the monster-hunters in the Catholic Church.

He'd probably work so that everyone's wishes are granted without needing the Grail to be summoned to begin with. Well, the righteous wishes, anyway.

 

[Shiakou]

To be fair, Jesus is wholy Man and wholy God, and he was ressurrected in the flesh after his death. It might well be possible. He's not the type that would fight, though; he'd probably be a rather pacifistic Caster. I suppose he might be a Saber, though; his words are his sword. Shirou tends to be more serious than Jesus was, though.

He'd probably beat the shit out of Kirei Kotomine once he finds out about the whole "destroy the world" thing, though, and he'd probaby have issues with the monster-hunters in the Catholic Church.

He'd probably work so that everyone's wishes are granted without needing the Grail to be summoned to begin with. Well, the righteous wishes, anyway.

Even if you accept Jesus to be fully human as well as fully divine, why would the Grail be able to summon him anyway? It's like wishing for more wishes; it defeats the purpose of the exercise, and breaks whatever rules were there in the first place. Why even have a Grail War at that point?

 

[nick012000]

To be fair, Jesus is wholy Man and wholy God, and he was ressurrected in the flesh after his death. It might well be possible. He's not the type that would fight, though; he'd probably be a rather pacifistic Caster. I suppose he might be a Saber, though; his words are his sword. Shirou tends to be more serious than Jesus was, though.

He'd probably beat the shit out of Kirei Kotomine once he finds out about the whole "destroy the world" thing, though, and he'd probaby have issues with the monster-hunters in the Catholic Church.

He'd probably work so that everyone's wishes are granted without needing the Grail to be summoned to begin with. Well, the righteous wishes, anyway.

Even if you accept Jesus to be fully human as well as fully divine, why would the Grail be able to summon him anyway? It's like wishing for more wishes; it defeats the purpose of the exercise, and breaks whatever rules were there in the first place. Why even have a Grail War at that point?

Because Jesus won't use his powers for an evil purpose. The Grail can grant evil wishes; just witness what it did with Kotomine's wish. Besides, Jesus isn't much of a fighter, and even if he can bring back the dead, he's not going to be cooperative with attempts to study him. Even if one of his Noble Phantasms is, well, the Holy Grail. The original one.

If I were to be the one to write this, though, I'd have Tohsaka be the one who summoned Arturia. Shiro happened to be walking past her house when she was doing the summoning, and the summoning spell latched onto the Noble Phantasm stuck inside his soul. Her meeting Jesus would be hilarious, in no small part due to the effects of her quest to obtain the Holy Grail.

 

[Shiakou]

To be fair, Jesus is wholy Man and wholy God, and he was ressurrected in the flesh after his death. It might well be possible. He's not the type that would fight, though; he'd probably be a rather pacifistic Caster. I suppose he might be a Saber, though; his words are his sword. Shirou tends to be more serious than Jesus was, though.

He'd probably beat the shit out of Kirei Kotomine once he finds out about the whole "destroy the world" thing, though, and he'd probaby have issues with the monster-hunters in the Catholic Church.

He'd probably work so that everyone's wishes are granted without needing the Grail to be summoned to begin with. Well, the righteous wishes, anyway.

Even if you accept Jesus to be fully human as well as fully divine, why would the Grail be able to summon him anyway? It's like wishing for more wishes; it defeats the purpose of the exercise, and breaks whatever rules were there in the first place. Why even have a Grail War at that point?

Because Jesus won't use his powers for an evil purpose. The Grail can grant evil wishes; just witness what it did with Kotomine's wish. Besides, Jesus isn't much of a fighter, and even if he can bring back the dead, he's not going to be cooperative with attempts to study him. Even if one of his Noble Phantasms is, well, the Holy Grail. The original one.

If I were to be the one to write this, though, I'd have Tohsaka be the one who summoned Arturia. Shiro happened to be walking past her house when she was doing the summoning, and the summoning spell latched onto the Noble Phantasm stuck inside his soul. Her meeting Jesus would be hilarious, in no small part due to the effects of her quest to obtain the Holy Grail.

You missed the point. I'm not asking about the merits of a FSN story where Jesus intervenes; I'm alright with that.

I'm asking "why would the Grail be able to summon him (Jesus) anyway?" If you accept Jesus as being presented by Christianity, then there is just no way the Grail can summon him unless Jesus himself wanted to be summoned. It breaks several rules including but not limited to the following;

1. The Grail can only summon Spirits from the Throne or from special contract with The World. I find it impossible to believe that God's soul is imprisoned inside the Throne, or that he would need to make any sort if contract with Gaia/Alaya.

2. The Grail can only summon Earthly Spirits (and only human/part-human ones at that). That is, it cannot summon, for example, Arcueid Brunestud, because she's neither human nor is her bloodline from Earth. (Though her sister Altrouge Brunestud is half-Dead Apostle (and therefore, at least, partly human), so maybe. . .) Even if you accept that Jesus made himself human, his spirit predates the Earth, and possibly the Universe.

3. The Grail empowers the final wish by basically absorbing the powers of the six defeated Servants. Jesus, by himself, would probably short-circuit the thing.

Of course, you can always break Christianity canon and have Jesus be some sort of weaker spirit with more specific powers. Just be warned; that opens the path for Fem!Jesus.

 

[nick012000]

To be fair, Jesus is wholy Man and wholy God, and he was ressurrected in the flesh after his death. It might well be possible. He's not the type that would fight, though; he'd probably be a rather pacifistic Caster. I suppose he might be a Saber, though; his words are his sword. Shirou tends to be more serious than Jesus was, though.

He'd probably beat the shit out of Kirei Kotomine once he finds out about the whole "destroy the world" thing, though, and he'd probaby have issues with the monster-hunters in the Catholic Church.

He'd probably work so that everyone's wishes are granted without needing the Grail to be summoned to begin with. Well, the righteous wishes, anyway.

Even if you accept Jesus to be fully human as well as fully divine, why would the Grail be able to summon him anyway? It's like wishing for more wishes; it defeats the purpose of the exercise, and breaks whatever rules were there in the first place. Why even have a Grail War at that point?

Because Jesus won't use his powers for an evil purpose. The Grail can grant evil wishes; just witness what it did with Kotomine's wish. Besides, Jesus isn't much of a fighter, and even if he can bring back the dead, he's not going to be cooperative with attempts to study him. Even if one of his Noble Phantasms is, well, the Holy Grail. The original one.

If I were to be the one to write this, though, I'd have Tohsaka be the one who summoned Arturia. Shiro happened to be walking past her house when she was doing the summoning, and the summoning spell latched onto the Noble Phantasm stuck inside his soul. Her meeting Jesus would be hilarious, in no small part due to the effects of her quest to obtain the Holy Grail.

You missed the point. I'm not asking about the merits of a FSN story where Jesus intervenes; I'm alright with that.

I'm asking "why would the Grail be able to summon him (Jesus) anyway?" If you accept Jesus as being presented by Christianity, then there is just no way the Grail can summon him unless Jesus himself wanted to be summoned. It breaks several rules including but not limited to the following;

1. The Grail can only summon Spirits from the Throne or from special contract with The World. I find it impossible to believe that God's soul is imprisoned inside the Throne, or that he would need to make any sort if contract with Gaia/Alaya.

2. The Grail can only summon Earthly Spirits (and only human/part-human ones at that). That is, it cannot summon, for example, Arcueid Brunestud, because she's neither human nor is her bloodline from Earth. (Though her sister Altrouge Brunestud is half-Dead Apostle (and therefore, at least, partly human), so maybe. . .) Even if you accept that Jesus made himself human, his spirit predates the Earth, and possibly the Universe.

3. The Grail empowers the final wish by basically absorbing the powers of the six defeated Servants. Jesus, by himself, would probably short-circuit the thing.

Of course, you can always break Christianity canon and have Jesus be some sort of weaker spirit with more specific powers. Just be warned; that opens the path for Fem!Jesus.

Jesus would be in the Throne. It's outside of time, remember? In Christian canon, when Jesus died, he went to Paradise, a part of Hell dedicated to good people, and took them all into Heaven with him. That's what he was doing for those three days before his ressurrection. It's likely that in the Fate/Stay Night universe, he went to the Throne of Heroes as well, and took all of them into heaven. Because it's outside of time, however, all the people within can still be summoned as though they were still there. As a result, Jesus could be summoned.

 

[Shiakou]

You missed the point. I'm not asking about the merits of a FSN story where Jesus intervenes; I'm alright with that.

I'm asking "why would the Grail be able to summon him (Jesus) anyway?" If you accept Jesus as being presented by Christianity, then there is just no way the Grail can summon him unless Jesus himself wanted to be summoned. It breaks several rules including but not limited to the following;

1. The Grail can only summon Spirits from the Throne or from special contract with The World. I find it impossible to believe that God's soul is imprisoned inside the Throne, or that he would need to make any sort if contract with Gaia/Alaya.

2. The Grail can only summon Earthly Spirits (and only human/part-human ones at that). That is, it cannot summon, for example, Arcueid Brunestud, because she's neither human nor is her bloodline from Earth. (Though her sister Altrouge Brunestud is half-Dead Apostle (and therefore, at least, partly human), so maybe. . .) Even if you accept that Jesus made himself human, his spirit predates the Earth, and possibly the Universe.

3. The Grail empowers the final wish by basically absorbing the powers of the six defeated Servants. Jesus, by himself, would probably short-circuit the thing.

Of course, you can always break Christianity canon and have Jesus be some sort of weaker spirit with more specific powers. Just be warned; that opens the path for Fem!Jesus.á

Jesus would be in the Throne. It's outside of time, remember? In Christian canon, when Jesus died, he went to Paradise, a part of Hell dedicated to good people, and took them all into Heaven with him. That's what he was doing for those three days before his ressurrection. It's likely that in the Fate/Stay Night universe, he went to the Throne of Heroes as well, and took all of them into heaven. Because it's outside of time, however, all the people within can still be summoned as though they were still there. As a result, Jesus could be summoned.

Nice save on number 1, but still, what about numbers 2 and 3?

2. Even if I accept that Jesus' spirit was at one point in the Throne, its very nature makes it unusable (paradox of being fully divine as well as fully human). Even if it is theoratically possible for the Throne to keep a copy of Jesus' spirit, summoning it would mean you now have at least two omnipotent souls running around (the original in heaven, and the Grail-summoned copy). Those two souls cannot help but be aware of each other. If you're lucky, they will work together. If you're unlucky, they'll be against each other for one reason or another (The King of Gods versus an ironic Anti-Christ), and the universe gets broken.

2. The Grail would still be broken one way or another due to the sheer power involved.

P.S. What, no comment on Fem!Jesus? I'm thinking of naming her Yochana (God is gracious) as a contrast to Jesus' Yeshua (God saves).

 

[Avider]

Jesus ain't in the Throne if he's God.

And if he's in the Throne, then he ain't God.

Nasuverse might not/probably doesn't even have God. There's Akasha, but that ain't God.

For crack, the first can be ignored.

For serious, the 2nd has to be used.

Or go with the Sasaki Kojirou angle. There's the legend of Jesus, but there ain't no actual Jesus, and the Grail just plots someone who was like the legend.

Or go Angra Mainyu route.

 

[toraneko]

Here's the Nasuverse take on God:

If God's a phenomenon that's perfect and flawless while omniscient and omnipotent, demons are phenomena that are absurd and nontangible while human and incompetent.

Back in the old days, demons used to be thought of as messengers of God, but God and demons are completely different; how people are suffering under demons isn't being heard by him.

Since demons are incompetent, they hang around humans, but God doesn't care about humans. Doesn't care about faith and no interest in how humans have fun or suffer; since of course, he just needs himself. That's what it means to be omniscient and omnipotent.

So the only thing he has ever had to say to us is "Bug off, don't bother me."

Which would be the general gist of what Kinoko wanted to say in DDD.

In short, in the Nasuverse, God is an uncaring entity disconnected from Mankind entirely. His hand is not in the world. Thus, Jesus would never exist (except as a mere man revered - in this case incorrectly - as God) and could not be the Messiah.

 

[Avider]

DDD is set in the Nasuverse also?

Man, this guy likes to keep it in the set...

 

[Shiakou]

Here's the Nasuverse take on God:

If God's a phenomenon that's perfect and flawless while omniscient and omnipotent, demons are phenomena that are absurd and nontangible while human and incompetent.

Back in the old days, demons used to be thought of as messengers of God, but God and demons are completely different; how people are suffering under demons isn't being heard by him.

Since demons are incompetent, they hang around humans, but God doesn't care about humans. Doesn't care about faith and no interest in how humans have fun or suffer; since of course, he just needs himself. That's what it means to be omniscient and omnipotent.

So the only thing he has ever had to say to us is "Bug off, don't bother me."

Which would be the general gist of what Kinoko wanted to say in DDD.

In short, in the Nasuverse, God is an uncaring entity disconnected from Mankind entirely. His hand is not in the world. Thus, Jesus would never exist (except as a mere man revered - in this case incorrectly - as God) and could not be the Messiah.

What if Jesus was a product of God similar to how White Ren is a product of Tatari?

Imagine if for one instant, just one instant, God thought about helping humans. Not because he really wanted to, but was just basically toying about the idea in his head. He almost instantly rejects it, but already there are consequences.

Cue Jesus. In this case, Jesus would not be representing God's will, but would instead be a literal afterthought, a powerful deity born from God in the same way that Athena was born from Zeus (or Zeus' forehead).

So we have Jesus, who isn't really God, but powerful enough that, as far as humans are concerned, he might as well be. Thankfully, Jesus has the same problem as Emiya Shirou; honorable, caring, and ready to sacrifice himself in a heartbeat for even his worst enemies. (You decide whether he has the same problems regarding sex. It would explain why priests/nuns are supposed to be . . . well, you know.)

It would explain why Shirou summoned Jesus; they're so much alike.

As for God? Well he doesn't really give a shit what Jesus does.