Dresden Files

[maidenofthemidnightmoon]

Raine, is it really too much to ask that you not constantly use insults and expletives whenever you have an argument with someone? I'm all for intellectual debates, but contrary to what you seem to believe insulting people does not, in fact, make you seem smarter or make people more inclined to agree with your views. It's just plain childish and annoying, it makes people overlook your posts because they don't want to bother reading your rants, and if you can't even control your temper over an internet post, I suggest you look into anger management therapy. Seriously dude, that can't be good for your blood pressure if you get worked up over internet arguments. Disagreements happen. People don't always have the same opinion as yours. Deal with it.

Now that that's out of the way, theory time!

Kumori is Maggie Dresden. Maggie Jr., not Sr.
:blink: :blink:

....Naaah. That theory's stupid, even for me. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I came up with that. Then again, I've had worse.

On another line of news...
Not sure if it's a 100% accurate, since I read it on an LJ post and later from a friend of mine (supposedly from an interview with Jim B.) but apparently the 'LeFay' part of Margaret LeFay is a title in the wizarding world, or something like that. And that the dagger Harry used to kill Slate in Changes was not, infact, the cursed athame, but instead Maggie Sr.'s dagger. Interesting, isn't it? The use of Maggie's dagger might be some kind of foreshadowing or symbolism on Butcher's part. We know that Maggie Sr. had been dangerously close to breaking several Laws and had dealings with some... less-than-scrupulous people. Probably the Black Council as well. And she was very close with the Fae as well, though we don't know how deep she was involved, just that she was close to Lea, close enough that she'd named her her son's Godmother (which probably wasn't that wise of an idea, but she was probably close to dying at the time) and give her the knowledge gem. Maybe it was a symbolism for Dresden's start of darkness, maybe more. If it's Maggie's, then the dagger would probably have some kind of innate magical power, yes?

The dark shape came closer, and a pale hand emerged from the folds of cloth. Something glittered coldly in the strange light and landed in the thick grass at my feet. I bent to take it up and found an ancient, ancient knife with a simple leaf-blade design, set into a wooden handle
and wrapped with cord and leather. It was, I thought, made of bronze. Its double edge had a wickedly sharp shine to it, and its needle point looked hungry, somehow.
Energy surged through the little blade, power that was unfettered and wild, that mocked limits and scoffed at restraint. Not evil, as suchùbut hungry and filled with the desire to partake in its portion of the cycle of life and death. It thirsted for bloodshed.
ôWhile Lloyd Slate lives and breathes, he is my Knight,ö said MabÆs voice. ôTake MedeaÆs bodkin, wizard. Take his lifeÆs blood.ö

Interesting, yes?

 

[jwang]

I think it's interesting that as Winter Knight, Harry falls under the Fae court's political protection. Attacking the Winter Knight would likely result in an escalation of conflict between the two courts, so unless Titania is willing to risk getting into a conflict with Winter and leaving herself open to attack from the Fomors, that revenge is going to have to be put on hold until the whole thing is resolved (which I doubt would happen till the end of the series... betting that the Black Council got their finger in the Fomor pie as well).

 

[the DragonBard]

Innortal, Raine, you're basically agreeing with each other about neither side being good or evil, just a few detail elements, so stop arguing, and Raine, stop throwing around insults.

 

[Lord Raine]

Innortal, Raine, you're basically agreeing with each other about neither side being good or evil, just a few detail elements, so stop arguing, and Raine, stop throwing around insults.

No, we aren't. Both sides are evil as hell. Innortal is just deluding himself into pretending that the Queen of all Wicked Fairies and Ruler of all Sidhe Darkness is not actually a bad person.

She's not a person. And she is literally the personification of bad. That's kind of the entire goddamn point.

 

[maidenofthemidnightmoon]

No, we aren't. Both sides are evil as hell. Innortal is just deluding himself into pretending that the Queen of all Wicked Fairies and Ruler of all Sidhe Darkness is not actually a bad person.

Err, what? Nowhere in Innortal's post is it stated that Mab is a cup of sunshine and rainbows.

Cruel she may be, but Mab has done nothing that is actively malicious towards Dresden. The thing with the blasting rod in Small Favor? If she hadn't done that, then Dresden would be easily found by Summer. Freezing the water in his eyes? If she hadn't done that then Dresden wouldn't listen to her and follow her orders. Which would have left Marcone at the mercy of the Nickleheads, which would be bad, to say the least. Imprisoning Lea in a block of ice in Arctis-Tor? At that point in time Lea was bat-shit crazy from the athame Bianca gave her. Even Lea herself agreed that it was the best thing Mab could do.

Slate, as far as Mab and any faerie is concerned, deserved what he got. He did one of the worst things to do while dealing with fae. He betrayed her. Fae don't take things like that lightly. He brought that down on himself.

She's not a person. And she is literally the personification of bad. That's kind of the entire goddamn point.

No. Just no. Mab is the Queen Who Is of the Winter Court, the Queen of Air and Darkness, not Evil Incarnate. We've got Outsiders for that sort of thing. Mab is a force of nature personified. You can't call a hurricane, or a storm, or a blizzard, evil.

What we did wasnÆt sex, regardless of what it appeared to be. You canÆt have sex with a thunderstorm, an earthquake, a furious winter gale. You canÆt make love to a mountain, a lake of ice, a freezing wind. (From Changes, pg 202)

For talking about a series that has more shades of grey than a rainbow has shades of colors, you treat it with a surprisingly white and black mentality, Raine.

Calling someone 'evil' would imply having a choice. Guess what? Mab has no choice over being 'Evil' or 'Good'. If anything, she's the closest thing to True Neutral the Dresdenverse has.

 

[Lord Raine]

He didn't call her sunshine and rainbows, but he did imply that she's misunderstood, and doesn't mean ill for Harry. I call bullshit to the end of time on both.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

He didn't call her sunshine and rainbows, but he did imply that she's misunderstood, and doesn't mean ill for Harry. I call bullshit to the end of time on both.

That's bulshit. Mab doesn't mean 'ill' for Harry. She might mean something that harry think is 'ill' for him, but Harry is as safe from Mab as someone can be considering the oaths she took when she took over Lea's debts.

 

[Lord Raine]

He didn't call her sunshine and rainbows, but he did imply that she's misunderstood, and doesn't mean ill for Harry. I call bullshit to the end of time on both.

That's bulshit. Mab doesn't mean 'ill' for Harry. She might mean something that harry think is 'ill' for him, but Harry is as safe from Mab as someone can be considering the oaths she took when she took over Lea's debts.

That's bullshit. Lea made it exceedingly clear that the Fae are allowed to play fast and loose with the definitions of words if you don't specify it in the deal itself. Her definition of keeping Harry 'safe' involved transforming him into a dog, a process which would have explicitly destroyed his memories and mind irrevocably. It's well within her character and abilities for Mab to simply decide that the best way to keep Harry 'safe' is to, say, freeze him solid and seal him in the cornerstone of Arctis Tor. Or possibly even destroy him herself, which is technically fulfilling the deal, seeing how it would prevent him from ever being hurt again.

Even if we assume that Mab is restrained in the same ways that Lea was, you're still overlooking the fact that Lea wasn't really restrained at all. She was free to interpret 'safe' however she pleased.

Besides, Mab only fills in for Lea if Lea is unable to perform her duties. Even if we ignore how thoroughly Fae can weasel with the words, any obligation Mab might have had to Harry disappeared when Lea was cured of the madness that had claimed her. Lea can do her job now, which means it's not Mab's job anymore.

Plus, we totally got it from Mab's own mouth that her plan was to twist him into a weapon she could wield against her enemies. Read the book. She wasn't pissed that he tried to backstab her by dropping a call to Kincaid. She was actually gleeful, because that's overtly Winter behavior. She got pissed and lost her shit when Harry told her that not only could she not alter who and what he was, but that she never could have, and never would be able to, because he was his own person. Mab then threatened to torture him into insanity or even mentally enslave him if he didn't comply, which is what prompted Harry's "mediocrity is a terrible fate" speech.

The only way you could possibly pretend that Mab does not intend Harry ill is if you've either never read Ghost Stories, or you've forgotten literally everything about the last chapter. She wants to turn Harry into her own personal monster. That's a fact. Anybody who tries to argue that Harry is pointlessly resisting because he has 'a thing against authority' or whatever Innortal's words were the last time he pulled this argument is so full of bullshit and self-delusions that I'm shocked they can stand up straight.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

The only way you could possibly pretend that Mab does not intend Harry ill is if you've either never read Ghost Stories, or you've forgotten literally everything about the last chapter. She wants to turn Harry into her own personal monster. That's a fact. Anybody who tries to argue that Harry is pointlessly resisting because he has 'a thing against authority' or whatever Innortal's words were the last time he pulled this argument is so full of bullshit and self-delusions that I'm shocked they can stand up straight.

Of course she wants harry to believe she owns his free will about this. Why are you think this is EVIL, though?

Also, she doesn't go batshit insane either- she LIKES that Harry can find ways to be himself still, because that proves he is strong, and she wants him strong, not useless.

Mab is neither Evil nor Good, and she wants, for Harry, as much 'Good' as a Fae can possibly want for someone- under her own definition of 'Good', of course.

 

[Chaos341]

The only way you could possibly pretend that Mab does not intend Harry ill is if you've either never read Ghost Stories, or you've forgotten literally everything about the last chapter. She wants to turn Harry into her own personal monster. That's a fact. Anybody who tries to argue that Harry is pointlessly resisting because he has 'a thing against authority' or whatever Innortal's words were the last time he pulled this argument is so full of bullshit and self-delusions that I'm shocked they can stand up straight.

Of course she wants harry to believe she owns his free will about this. Why are you think this is EVIL, though?

Also, she doesn't go batshit insane either- she LIKES that Harry can find ways to be himself still, because that proves he is strong, and she wants him strong, not useless.

Mab is neither Evil nor Good, and she wants, for Harry, as much 'Good' as a Fae can possibly want for someone- under her own definition of 'Good', of course.

I have not read Ghost Stories but what the fuck made you think that the soulless monster that tortured a man for four year in a manner that eventually made him want it is not evil?

 

[the DragonBard]

The only way you could possibly pretend that Mab does not intend Harry ill is if you've either never read Ghost Stories, or you've forgotten literally everything about the last chapter. She wants to turn Harry into her own personal monster. That's a fact. Anybody who tries to argue that Harry is pointlessly resisting because he has 'a thing against authority' or whatever Innortal's words were the last time he pulled this argument is so full of bullshit and self-delusions that I'm shocked they can stand up straight.

Of course she wants harry to believe she owns his free will about this. Why are you think this is EVIL, though?

Also, she doesn't go batshit insane either- she LIKES that Harry can find ways to be himself still, because that proves he is strong, and she wants him strong, not useless.

Mab is neither Evil nor Good, and she wants, for Harry, as much 'Good' as a Fae can possibly want for someone- under her own definition of 'Good', of course.

I have not read Ghost Stories but what the fuck made you think that the soulless monster that tortured a man for four year in a manner that eventually made him want it is not evil?

The thing is, she's an elemental. She's nasty as hell, but it's like a cat playing with a mouse. She is what she is. No choice in the matter.

 

[crazyfoxdemon]

The only way you could possibly pretend that Mab does not intend Harry ill is if you've either never read Ghost Stories, or you've forgotten literally everything about the last chapter. She wants to turn Harry into her own personal monster. That's a fact. Anybody who tries to argue that Harry is pointlessly resisting because he has 'a thing against authority' or whatever Innortal's words were the last time he pulled this argument is so full of bullshit and self-delusions that I'm shocked they can stand up straight.

Of course she wants harry to believe she owns his free will about this. Why are you think this is EVIL, though?

Also, she doesn't go batshit insane either- she LIKES that Harry can find ways to be himself still, because that proves he is strong, and she wants him strong, not useless.

Mab is neither Evil nor Good, and she wants, for Harry, as much 'Good' as a Fae can possibly want for someone- under her own definition of 'Good', of course.

I have not read Ghost Stories but what the fuck made you think that the soulless monster that tortured a man for four year in a manner that eventually made him want it is not evil?

The thing is, she's an elemental. She's nasty as hell, but it's like a cat playing with a mouse. She is what she is. No choice in the matter.

Trying to paint her with petty 'Human' moralities is like trying to call a storm or a blizzard evil.. The storm just is..

 

[bmsattler]

Yeah, I think it hinges on what you mean when you say 'Evil.' She's dangerous, but (mostly) when you make a deal with her then break it. Fey, for all their trickery and shades of grey, have some very black and white rules that they live by. The risks are (usually) equal to the reward, in that you're not as likely to get into serious trouble if you make a deal with a fey to say... pick up the remote control one time for you as you are to agree to be the Mortal Avatar of Winter Fey'dom.

If the guy hadn't broken his deal with Mab, he'd still be doing just fine (provided nothing else broke his smug face off.)

 

[the DragonBard]

Pretty much.

Though, while she isn't 'evil' in the same sense as a human, I'll admit that from a human standpoint she acts like an evil person.

 

[Terdwilicker]

I've been delaying reading Ghost Story for some time now, mainly because I was pretty disgusted with Butcher driving Dresden off the rails in Changes with so many cliche atrocities it pretty well destroyed my suspension of disbelief. Ghost Story was his mea culpa, with some action thrown in like a typical Dresden files story. Like most, it ends up with him having hurt a lot of people, while gaining some unexpected allies. I remain uncertain if I really want to continue reading the series. I'm seeing this series as something appropriate for young men age 14-30, probably no older. I'm outside the demographic. Some day it will be possible to read all 24 novels and that demographic will be really happy to have them and all their Shonen-Jump glory but I'm less enthused. I was hoping for something more cerebral reflecting a level of maturity in Dresden's character. That hasn't happened yet.

There's a rule in writing: you can't write a character smarter than yourself. There's another rule: writing is done for money so write for your paying audience. I can't fault that. Butcher has a mortgage. I wish him well.

 

[Tsuki_CB]

Trying to paint her with petty 'Human' moralities is like trying to call a storm or a blizzard evil.. The storm just is..

Or not so petty. You think I'm kidding? The whole DF universe is dictated by what the humans do. The superpowers fall in line with whatever the humans do because they're caught up in so many rules and restrictions they can't even breath without being monitored by everybody else. Humans are the only truly free ones in the story, thus they get to decide how the game is ultimately played.

It must gall Mab quite a bit to know her entire existence relies on human belief while a human could give less of a shit about anybody else.

 

[crazyfoxdemon]

It must gall Mab quite a bit to know her entire existence relies on human belief while a human could give less of a shit about anybody else.

Where in the books does it say that her existence relies on human belief? We know that knowledge of the fey allows them to access the mortal world, but that's is not the same thing as existing..

If no one even knew about the fey. And I mean NO ONE. Then the fey would still exist in the Nevernever. They wouldn't be able to touch Earth, but they'd still be out and about.

 

[Tsuki_CB]

It's in a short story that follows Tohmas. We find out that a secret war, called the forgotten wars is being waged. Basically things like fairys and gods can only exist in the real world due to the humans knowing about them, the more the better. It's stated that the fairys fall into this category as well, but pretty much won via the Brothers Grim.

 

[crazyfoxdemon]

It's in a short story that follows Tohmas. We find out that a secret war, called the forgotten wars is being waged. Basically things like fairys and gods can only exist in the real world due to the humans knowing about them, the more the better. It's stated that the fairys fall into this category as well, but pretty much won via the Brothers Grim.

Exactly, they can only interact with Earth so long as people know about them. Your previous point

It must gall Mab quite a bit to know her entire existence relies on human belief while a human could give less of a shit about anybody else.

Stated that their entire existence hinged on the Humans knowing about them. Which implies that without humans knowing about them, they would not exist. Which is false. They would still exist, but be unable to interact with humanity.

 

[Tsuki_CB]

Which is kinda the point. The Fairy's are only relevant to anything as long as they are known about by humans. Nothing they do can change that simple fact. Who cares if you have about as much power as an Archangel if you're stuck never being in a position to use it for anything? Hell the only reason Odin has any power at all anymore is because Norse mythology is interesting stuff to learn.

The DF universe revolves around humans. Thus its humans that set the standards. Not Mab, or Odin, or the Red Court, but humans. By human standards Mab is an evil bitch that should be avoided at all costs. Just because that is not technically true, and she is just a slave to her nature as every fairy is, doesn't matter because it's the human perspective that matters the most here.

The fact that she has to rely on humans for that, when even the most lowly human doesn't, is what probably galls her the most.

Stated that their entire existence hinged on the Humans knowing about them. Which implies that without humans knowing about them, they would not exist. Which is false. They would still exist, but be unable to interact with humanity.

For all practical purposes they would. It was also stated in the same story that they didn't even know if they had succeeded in completely erasing something from existence because if they had then they don't remember it, them just knowing about it is a point in the enemy's favor.

More specifically Mab would still have her personal power, but that would be tied up fighting summer, and other treaties. But the whole Summer Knight Novel where the world could have entered into an Ice Age or some kinda wild death forest depending on who won the fairy war wouldn't be possible. It's humans that give the fairy's that god like ability.

If Mab was unable to effect the real world at all, and with her power constrained by others of equal or more power. She would be pretty much useless and powerless to do anything.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

If Mab was unable to effect the real world at all, and with her power constrained by others of equal or more power. She would be pretty much useless and powerless to do anything.

Her power in the human world may or may not be greatly dimnished in the human world, depending on how true that is.

The thing is, though, she doesn't give a damn about the human world beyond what it can give her against summer- if she can't access the human world, it means summer can't either, which means that neither care.

 

[Tsuki_CB]

Mab cares about humans, granted not in the way that is in anyway good for humanity, but she cares. Otherwise she wouldn't being giving a portion of her power to a human to act as her knight.

There is a very good reason why Mab wanted to be able to influence the real world, otherwise she would have help with the Brother's Grimm.

 

[Takerial]

The time is nearing.

 

[ttestagr]

First three chapters are up on the site. Daaammmn. That's one way to do physical therapy...

 

[Rahlian]

I can't stop giggling.