Naruto Fanon: Is there ever a right time to use it?

[Leonite]

As the titles says, is there ever a time to use fanon, and if so, in what way should it be used?

To give an example... the classic "Demon Brat" mob fanon. To me, I'd only ever use it at a time where the story shows that a younger Naruto has guardians/friends that don't put up with stuff like that, and the mob is mostly consisting of very drunk people who are more aiming towards the prank side, with one person being an instigator who's doing it for more malicious reasons concerning the percieved demon side. That way the people of Konoha don't come off as stupid, it allows one to give an example of the character in question's personality.

HOWEVER, and this is a big however, I would make it very clear that this is NOTa common thing, and is probably the only time its happened.

Thoughts? Your own ideas concerning this?

 

[Matdeception]

As the titles says, is there ever a time to use fanon, and if so, in what way should it be used?

To give an example... the classic "Demon Brat" mob fanon. To me, I'd only ever use it at a time where the story shows that a younger Naruto has guardians/friends that don't put up with stuff like that, and the mob is mostly consisting of very drunk people who are more aiming towards the prank side, with one person being an instigator who's doing it for more malicious reasons concerning the percieved demon side. That way the people of Konoha don't come off as stupid, it allows one to give an example of the character in question's personality.

HOWEVER, and this is a big however, I would make it very clear that this is NOTa common thing, and is probably the only time its happened.

Thoughts? Your own ideas concerning this?

You use it whenever the hell you feel like writing a story that requires themes based on it.

Don't let this 'Fanon' versus 'Canon' crap to sway you. As long as a story requires it then it's all A'okay.

Just don't confuse the two.

 

[TheKinginRed]

Fanon was always a way for authors to fill in gaps in their knowledge of the series canon or to make the story more dramatic.

Sturgeon's law activates and we get the fanon 'hate' we have today.

I believe anything could be written well, it just takes the required effort.

 

[Leonite]

The thing is that I hate fanon like the Mob mainly because its used to excuse or hide sloppy writing. Need a reason for Naruto to hate the village? Mobs! Despite all the questions it raises. Want to have an angsty badass shippuden Naruto who isn't part of the village? BANISHMENT COMBINED WITH MOBS.

It's rarely ever done well. Hence I'm asking for ways mainly if a certain piece of fanon can be done well, and if so, how?

 

[TheKinginRed]

Well the whole mob thing could be used in a grimdark grey and black setting. Sarutobi's an ends justifies the means kind of guy who sees the mobs as something to toughen up Naruto and always intervenes to at least keep him alive.


Maybe add demons or something that the ninja can't face and Sarutobi is turning Naruto into the chakra version of Alucard to combat them.

As long as you don't go over the top with it, it might possibly work?

 

[Antimatter]

As the titles says, is there ever a time to use fanon, and if so, in what way should it be used?

To give an example... the classic "Demon Brat" mob fanon. To me, I'd only ever use it at a time where the story shows that a younger Naruto has guardians/friends that don't put up with stuff like that, and the mob is mostly consisting of very drunk people who are more aiming towards the prank side, with one person being an instigator who's doing it for more malicious reasons concerning the percieved demon side. That way the people of Konoha don't come off as stupid, it allows one to give an example of the character in question's personality.

HOWEVER, and this is a big however, I would make it very clear that this is NOTa common thing, and is probably the only time its happened.

Thoughts? Your own ideas concerning this?

Honestly, the demon brat stuff makes no sense now, given how important the hosts were to the balance of power in the nations. Why in the world would you ostracize the very person whom your national defense seems to rely on?

I can see treating them with caution, never knowing if the quality of seal is up to par, if the host has the proper control, etc, but never outright hatred or such.

Makes me think that early naruto characterizations really have no bearing now, given all the elements introduced or changed.

 

[Chaotic Symbolism]

Konoha is a military mercenary village. Has anyone thought how the mobs would disrupt life in the village?

There is collateral damage (property damage, bystanders getting injured) to take into account: someone will have to pay for that.

Spies could use the chaos to slip in-or-out with village secrets. Not to mention kidnap or assassinate targets in the confusion caused by the mob induced mayhem.

Also there is the matter of how undisciplined it is and embarrassing it would look to prospective clients. Who's going to hire people from such an out of control village?

So mobs would probably be put down fast.

However one to two people or even small groups of people trying to kill Naruto covertly? That would make more sense given it is a village of ninja.

Banishment in general makes no sense given how Bijuu are the Village's WMD. Yes lets just hand out our resident walking nukes to our enemies who would just love to point it back at us.

If I'm not mistaken the general theme of banishment fics is Naruto leaves for several years, then comes back to the village a Bad Ass. You don't need to banish Naruto for that, you just need to turn the Time-skip/Training Trip up a notch or two.

 

[Nitramy]

Take from it as much useful stuff for your story as you can... and discard the rest.

MK using the classic "Sakura's mother" fanon to troll his readers is an example.

 

[DhampyrX2]

Banishment mostly has its place because it's less cruel than the sensible solution of extracting the Kyuubi/assassinating Naruto to put it in a host that will be whatever the power behind the banishment wants. Some people balk at the idea of executing a kid (or attempting it) for a power play so they go with a banishment angle.

 

[Inaba]

I believe that fanon is acceptable so long as it makes sense in the setting that is being presented by the story.

For example, Naruto being beaten regularly in a near-canon setting makes little to no sense for reasons that I'm sure we're all familiar with and therefore will not regurgitate here.

But in contrast, if someone wrote a story where the Sandaime was nasty enough to encourage abuse and toss in moments of familial kindness on his part in order to socially isolate Naruto and bind the kid to him personally, I'd be willing to accept it as part of the AU so long as everything else in the story change accordingly.

 

[Ina_meishou]

Yes. Whenever you feel a narrative element that has been labeled 'fanon' would fit into the story you want to tell.

 

[Chaotic Symbolism]

I believe that fanon is acceptable so long as it makes sense in the setting that is being presented by the story.

For example, Naruto being beaten regularly in a near-canon setting makes little to no sense for reasons that I'm sure we're all familiar with and therefore will not regurgitate here.

But in contrast, if someone wrote a story where the Sandaime was nasty enough to encourage abuse and toss in moments of familial kindness on his part in order to socially isolate Naruto and bind the kid to him personally, I'd be willing to accept it as part of the AU so long as everything else in the story change accordingly.

Yes a more darker setting with a manipulative Sarutobi? In that case Naruto getting physically abused regularly would be believable.

The part in bold? I've lost count of the number of stories with plot holes with how they continue following the canon plot despite how it no longer makes sense to do so.

 

[goldenarms]

Banishment mostly has its place because it's less cruel than the sensible solution of extracting the Kyuubi/assassinating Naruto to put it in a host that will be whatever the power behind the banishment wants.á Some people balk at the idea of executing a kid (or attempting it) for a power play so they go with a banishment angle.

I think you're giving such writers wa~~~y too much credit.

"Banishment" is the quickest, easiest way to take Naruto out of Konoha and have him grow up to be a "true" badass, plus it easily doubles as "yet another example" of how much favoritism the 'prissy-ass" Sasuke gets from the evil-and-stupid Council/Konoha in general, since almost every "Banishment" fic I've encountered uses a successful retrieval mission as a plot point. Almost word-for-word, Naruto returns victoriously with Sasuke only to get thrown out of the village for beating the crap out of their "precious" Uchiha in the process, never-fucking-mind the fact that a mysterious organization is blatantly after the fox sealed inside of Naruto and the fact that Itachi is in said organization speaks of just how bad an idea it would be to let them succeed in reaching their goal.

The only time I can think of fanon being appropriate is when you carry them out to their logical conclusions -- either Naruto dies a gory death, a load of people are brutally murdered to prevent said death, or a combination of both. In fact, I used the "mob" in the <a href='http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Fanfiction_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14565&view=findpost&p=10697070' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Mediator</a> story I worked on, only shit went bad when they did it, and as a result, the act would never be repeated ever again. Because, let's face it, in a village full of professional killers, there's absolutely no reason why Naruto should have lived past the age of three if they truly wanted him dead.

 

[Leonite]

I was mainly thinking in a "Naruto's apartment" type scenario that would've ended up with the death of pretty much anyone who actually wanted to do worse than just minor injuries (The idea being that most of them re drunk being lead by a few people who are either both drunk but believe Naruto IS the demon or that he should be killed, the Mizuki type, or are just that dumb, the fanon type).

At the hands of Naruto's super powered Neighbours, after a bit of bonding. It would be made clear that this is the first time and the only reason no-one intervened is because of who is in the buildings and who'd take offence to a mob out for Naruto.

 

[Inaba]

Personally, I think that the banishment angle is used so much because many fanfic authors want to make Naruto two often contradictory things. One is the 'make Naruto a badass' angle while the other is the 'make Naruto a woobie who's never at fault for anything ever' angle.

If they wanted Naruto to get out of Konoha, there's the easy solution of having Naruto simply walking out on the job one day and becoming a missing nin. But I think a lot of fanfic authors don't like this approach because even assuming that Naruto manages to desert without carving a path right through Konoha nin, it makes him either a deserter or a traitor or even both, both of which are often pretty harshly looked down upon regardless of the organization that is being turned on.

Of course, there's also the popular 'wah, everyone is being unfair to me, so I'm totally going to write a story where the author insert is perfect and wonderful and never at fault and will one day turn up and show them all' angle. But this is perhaps being unfair to the authors.

 

[goldenarms]

Personally, I think that the banishment angle is used so much because many fanfic authors want to make Naruto two often contradictory things. One is the 'make Naruto a badass' angle while the other is the 'make Naruto a woobie who's never at fault for anything ever' angle.

If they wanted Naruto to get out of Konoha, there's the easy solution of having Naruto simply walking out on the job one day and becoming a missing nin. But I think a lot of fanfic authors don't like this approach because even assuming that Naruto manages to desert without carving a path right through Konoha nin, it makes him either a deserter or a traitor or even both, both of which are often pretty harshly looked down upon regardless of the organization that is being turned on.

Of course, there's also the popular 'wah, everyone is being unfair to me, so I'm totally going to write a story where the author insert is perfect and wonderful and never at fault and will one day turn up and show them all' angle. But this is perhaps being unfair to the authors.

We get a lot of that from just regular fanfics.

Naruto: Chaos Mage does this, with Naruto-in-name-only character purposely failing the genin exam three times and hiding his "true" skills all this time just to show up the canon class he graduated with.

Talk about fucking petty...

 

[Inaba]

It's kind of a shame because I personally love that plot element, which is why it's all the more annoying when turns out so badly.

It's like using the one-shot super weapon on a level one slime, except it's not as funny, utterly pathetic and so counter-productive to its intended purpose that it kind of hurts to read through.

 

[Wildfeather]

We have two different elements here. Banished! Naruto and MobsInKonoha!

For Banished Naruto, the only way it works is if he is in on it, and Konoha is using it as an excuse to let him go around freely or spy for them. Even under those circumstances, it is still hard to believe, but tolerable because Konoha has been top dog in the EC for a long time, and never felt the need to field Kurama or his host as a weapon. So if they were suddenly lacking Naruto, I don't think it would matter much, except that the other villages may want to hold their own jinchukiri a little closer to their chest so they don't get nabbed (keep in mind that if they kept Sasuke in any way, or could call up Itachi, or just use Yamato they can get the biju under lock and key without having to try very hard, making killing the host a tenable option.) If the other villages have any intel on Konoha.


To be honest, I don't really like the Dark and Grey theme for Naruto, because Konoha as a unit is competely bad ass. Assuming they don't have to worry about public relations (logical extension of a military dictatorship) Itachi takes down the rest of the clan, then sticks around to help raise Sasuke. He can just say the answer is classified, or tell Sasuke the truth. Itachi is a monster of the highest level in the manga, but ignoring him (stupidly) let's see who else is in the Konoha roster...

Jiraiya who is such a harass two S rank ninja didn't think that they could double team him and win.

Tsunade who wouldn't be allowed to leave, and is no joke.

Kakashi, who has the potential to be better than his father, who was the equal to ALL three Sannin. Who has also copied 1000 or more techniques, and is a certified bad ass without his hax eye.

Yamato who has the ridiculously OP vs jinchukiri and biju, and was an ANBU captain beside.

And that's just the players that we know are 5/5 stars of rape vs. Most ninja. I find it hard to believe any village that has that much destructive capability is afraid OD anything. In fact, I would fully expect them to set up a kill squad and harvest the biju the first Hokage gave away and reseal them into 9 individuals from Konoha.

The only reason that this setting works is because it is a good and evil setting, otherwise the imbalance of power in Konoha (think about it, how many badasses come out of Konoha compared to all the other villages put together? Most of the big players of Akatsuki are either Konoha trained -Nagato, Konan, Orochimaru, Itachi- affiliated because of Konoha -Tobi, Deidara, Kisame- or haven't been able to defeat a Konoha based team -Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori, Diedara again- of people with lesser ranks) would let them just take over the world.

Which basically rules out mob scenes unless there are extenuating circumstances. Here are a few, Naruto has a different life because of the seal (he ages faster towards his prime, has enhanced senses and physical make up, doesn't eat or drink like a normal human) that sets him radically apart, and then somethig bad happens that would turn public opinion against him. For instance, he hurts or kills someone with super strength, is a public hazard in some way, or some other traumatic event that spurs some kind of reaction against him. I like the fact that my country has bikes pointed at my enemies, but if I think that nuke is pointed at me, I might not like it so much. Take it even further though, and have an enemy agent come in and using infiltration tactics and genjutsu, is actively starting mobs and creating a counter-culture that is against using children as weapons.

Then we have a dynamic where there is danger to Naruto as an individual (mobs under coercion are trying to hurt him) which are easily dealt with, but also as a military asset (they are being nice to him, and advise him to become something other than a ninja) which can't be. The mobs should be the symptom of a larger conspiracy, not a cause and effect chain of themselves.


Jeez this got long. I wonder if I should add a bit of butter and serve this up over in the ideas thread for someone to use.

 

[Antimatter]

The only way I see mobs scenes working is if they are some secret test of loyalty/response testing, combined with personality analysis.

 

[Inaba]

I can't see mobs happening at all unless Konoha experiences a super-plague that kills nine in ten or an equivalent disaster, resulting in its infrastructure being gutted and its chain of command disintegrated. Mobs are serious problems for the leadership - Sarutobi letting an uncontrollable mob running around aimed at his sapient nuke equivalent seems about as probable as him eating an arsenic pie with shit on top and about as palatable.

As for Konoha's standing in relation to the other shinobi villages, I'm not convinced that Konoha is stronger than the other villages at the manga's start, though the present might be different tale.

If Konoha is the strongest village, why haven't the other villages adopted suitable diplomatic positions in response? Iwa and Kumo don't share a border and presumably have few outstanding disputes between them - why hasn't Iwa sought out an alliance with the only other available power considering how badly it was mauled by Namikaze in the last war? Given the scale of its reputed defeat, Iwa should have what amounts to a lost generation that it couldn't have possibly recovered from. If Konoha wasn't similarly mauled in the same war, why isn't Iwa scrambling to protect itself in case of a Round 2?

Granted, it's possible for Iwa and Kumo to create a secret pact to support one's another in case of war, but that eliminates the deterrence value of an alliance, which is a large part of its usefulness in this scenario.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Konoha right after the Uchiha Massacre is the only time where mobs would be possible, as the main peacekeeping force has been totally destroyed in a single night, which would cause disorders of every kind.
Then again, putting the village under martial law with curfews employing regular forces along AnBu while the villages restructure the system and fast-trains the new peacekeeping force is the most logical consequence of the Massacre, so it would make mobs even less likely to manage anything.

why hasn't Iwa sought out an alliance with the only other available power considering how badly it was mauled by Namikaze in the last war?

because the circle of hatred. They hate Konoha. Also, IIRC they are at odds with Suna, Konoha's ally.
Kumo doesn't trust Konoha at all(most likely because of Danzo. Else, they simply wouldn't trust Konoha)
Kiri is busy.
Suna is allied.


Also, note how Konoha seems to be the only village with certified allied villages.
As far as we know, no other major village has any kind of ally(except Suna, of course).

 

[Altered Nova]

All of the villages hated each other. Kumo in particular was crazy paranoid, that's why they kept trying to steal bloodlines and build up their forces even when everyone else was attempting to demilitarize.

 

[Inaba]

Right, I'm questioning why Iwa and Kumo haven't partnered up considering that either one of them going in solo against Konoha means pitting one shinobi village against two. I'm disregarding Kiri because it's the furthest one out, occupied with internal affairs, and I suspect either the weakest or second weakest based on their smaller usable landmass and thus what I'm assuming to be a smaller pool of manpower. But Iwa and Kumo seem ideal allies against Konoha - they don't share a border, each can access the other through the ocean, and the two are in good position to flank Konoha.

I like the argument that the shinobi village aren't big on long-term alliances because of their turbulent past, but that leads into my original point - Konoha is probably not overwhelmingly stronger than the other shinobi villages because its victory in the last war hasn't prompted its rivals to start scrambling for allies to prepare for a possible Round 2. Peoples and nations have often demonstrated a remarkable potential to momentarily forget old grudges to unite against an intruding third party - witness Britain and France against Germany in WW1, Shu and Wu against Wei during the 3 Kingdoms, and everyone in Europe against Napoleon. Considering that the shinobi are mercenaries and thus likely to be an unusually practical lot even for a military class in tumultuous times, that streak of pragmatism should be stronger rather than weaker in them.

If Konoha is indeed as overwhelmingly strong as it is claimed to be in fanon and indeed a few posts up in this very thread, why aren't Iwa and Kumo doing the logical thing, temporarily overlooking their differences, and teaming up against it?

 

[Wildfeather]

Right, I'm questioning why Iwa and Kumo haven't partnered up considering that either one of them going in solo against Konoha means pitting one shinobi village against two. I'm disregarding Kiri because it's the furthest one out, occupied with internal affairs, and I suspect either the weakest or second weakest based on their smaller usable landmass and thus what I'm assuming to be a smaller pool of manpower. But Iwa and Kumo seem ideal allies against Konoha - they don't share a border, each can access the other through the ocean, and the two are in good position to flank Konoha.

I like the argument that the shinobi village aren't big on long-term alliances because of their turbulent past, but that leads into my original point - Konoha is probably not overwhelmingly stronger than the other shinobi villages because its victory in the last war hasn't prompted its rivals to start scrambling for allies to prepare for a possible Round 2. Peoples and nations have often demonstrated a remarkable potential to momentarily forget old grudges to unite against an intruding third party - witness Britain and France against Germany in WW1, Shu and Wu against Wei during the 3 Kingdoms, and everyone in Europe against Napoleon. Considering that the shinobi are mercenaries and thus likely to be an unusually practical lot even for a military class in tumultuous times, that streak of pragmatism should be stronger rather than weaker in them.

If Konoha is indeed as overwhelmingly strong as it is claimed to be in fanon and indeed a few posts up in this very thread, why aren't Iwa and Kumo doing the logical thing, temporarily overlooking their differences, and teaming up against it?

So, your response to seeing an unaggressive dominant power (who has an ally already) is to call up one of their rivals and suggest a team-up? That definitely won't get out, and bite you on the ass. And the reason why Iwa never tried to team up with Kumo is obvious, Iwa has no nukes, and doesn't want the world to know. the Iwa jinchukiri left, remember? That'd be the first thing they got asked for sure, and with that known, Kumo would probably not engage an alliance, and possibly try to hunt down and reseal the biju into a new candidate.

In terms of their ability to engage an enemy village"

Iwa->Mist->Sand->Kumo->Konoha.

Mainly because for normal people, the jinchukiri are the weapons you would use to beat down a village. Iwa has none, and the mist one is under their mizukage, which means that instead of 2 big threats to face (the kage and the container) you only have one. Otherwise, the other two villages have no major threats to speak of that we know of (Deidara is missing, so is Sasori, and the best Kage for Sand was Gaara, who is also their container. Mist has none of their swordsmen loyal -who all appear to be pretty heavy hitters- and their hokage, but since they're in the middle of a civil war...).

There just aren't enough named badasses that are loyal to their village except Konoha. Otherwise the fighting force of most places is Kage+grunts, which isn't even close to Konoha's list of elites+Kage+grunt.

We don't have a very good timeline for the series, but they may be still recovering, economically. It must be hard to pull in clients when you either got your ass kicked by one guy (Iwa), tried to kidnap a child (Kumo), your daimyo is giving business to Konoha (Sand), or you're in the middle of a civil war (Mist). So maybe they want to, but can't.

 

[Knyght]

Assuming Iwa couldn't simply call back their Jinchuuriki. Roushi was only said to have left to better understand his abilities, not that he went rogue; if Iwa's gearing up for war, then it's possible that he'd come back.

Kiri still has two big threats; the fact that one of their jinchuuriki is the Mizukage wouldn't change that. Kages don't just stay in the village during wartime, we've seen them fight in the frontlines in the past (Tobirama and the Third Raikage for definite, with other likely contenders).