Naruto Fanon: Is there ever a right time to use it?

[Inaba]

Konoha is not a passive power - at the least, we've seen Danzou meddling with the affairs of other nations and his Root nin are not likely to be distinguished from standard Konoha nin. Furthermore, given the sheer number of minor shinobi villages that are allied or at least amicable with Konoha (Ame, Kusa, Taki, etc.), it's hard to imagine that Konoha isn't taking an active interest in their affairs.

I consider the position that Iwa and Kumo aren't teaming up because they're afraid of provoking Konoha highly questionable. Konoha isn't strong enough to take on both them simultaneously on two different fronts and Suna is unreliable as an ally. If anything, the formation of a second alliance deters the possibility of war breaking out because it makes the consequences that much bloodier and the rewards far less probable for everyone involved.

Furthermore, even if Iwa and Kumo were allied, why would they disclose every detail of their military with one another? Even Nato militaries don't do that and Nato is a much, much stronger alliance than anything that could exist between Iwa and Kumo.

As for the disparity in characters of note between the shinobi villages, I don't think it matters as much as one might think. One man is still one man and numbers still matter in a war fought by superhumans. Certainly the fact that the other villages still exist and appear to have never suffered truly conclusive defeats suggest that either Konoha's elite ninja were matched by their counterparts in other villages or that Minato was the exception that proved the rule and the elite can die to massed mooks. Otherwise people like Tobirama would not have died fighting.

In regards to their economies, I don't think either Iwa or Kumo would've suffered that much more than Konoha from the war. The shinobi villages seem a lot more like the standing militaries of their countries than simply mercenaries and I think they'd be able to hold onto the business of their home countries if nothing else. Furthermore, any sensible daimyo should be subsidizing their local shinobi village because a weak village means they've got nothing to cover their asses and the villages are strong enough to threaten them if desperate.

But then again, the actions of the Kaze daimyo is rather strange in this context. Did he think that Suna wouldn't move to eliminate someone that's quite literally choking them to death? Did he believe that he could pay other villages to handle the problem? Was he in contact with Akatsuki? What factors emboldened him enough to challenge an entire village of superhuman mercenaries and why did he believe in them?

 

[Ina_meishou]

But then again, the actions of the Kaze daimyo is rather strange in this context. Did he think that Suna wouldn't move to eliminate someone that's quite literally choking them to death? Did he believe that he could pay other villages to handle the problem? Was he in contact with Akatsuki? What factors emboldened him enough to challenge an entire village of superhuman mercenaries and why did he believe in them?

Needs of plot.

 

[Knyght]

Incompetence and short-sightedness bolstered by peace-time.

 

[Lord Raine]

'Fanon' is defined as "things that the fandom assumes are canon, and yet are not."

There is no "fanon versus canon."

There is canon. And there's everything else. The delusions of the individual, or even the general masses, have no hold here, and do not enter the equation.

If the fic you're writing requires a bunch of people to form up a posse and try to kill Naruto when he's five, then that's nothing more than an event in your fic. It is no more 'fanon' than Haku surviving, or canonically being a girl, or Naruto picking up swordsmanship, or whatever.

The only time fanon ever comes into play in a discussion of fanon versus canon is for large, long-running series that have numerous 'official' contributors that tend to contradict and retroactively modify themselves and each other. In these sorts of circumstances, two views tend to emerge. The official canon, which is defined chronologically by the most recent statements of what is true, which overwrite all of the older, previous statements, and the canon that the fans, both as a group and as individuals, like, i.e. 'fanon' or "headcanon," since it's the canon you have in your head. Examples of these sorts of settings would include things like Warhammer 40k, Star Wars, the Gundam universe, the Marvelverse, Warcraft, the Power Ranger universe, the Kamen Rider universe, and the DCverse, which are large and prolific canons that encompass dozens of different, separate writers, video games, movies, reboots, alternate continuities, spin-off comics, and other such things.

For instance, the Orks in 40k used to be a whole lot cooler, but they got nerfed because. . . because fuck it, apparently. Essentially, WH40k Orks are kind of stupid and very much insane, but the 'technology' that they make works for them anyway, because they're all passively psychic, and together they form this psychic gestalt of expectations. Essentially, if they expect something to work, or work in a certain way, it will. So even though their tech is garbage, their powers bullshit what they make the rest of the way. You couldn't pick up an Ork gun (a 'Shoota') and use it reliably, because it's poorly put together, shoddy, and liable to blow up in your hands, but for an Ork, it works just fine. Likewise, you cannot make a vehicle (or yourself) move faster by painting it red, but because the Orks all believe that "red goes fasta," it does go faster*. Their powers used to be stronger, in the sense that, if you gave an Ork a random piece of scrap metal and convinced him it was a gun, it would fire bullets, but this got nerfed in the fluff because apparently the Orks were too awesome or something, and now their technology is just shitty and unreliable, as opposed to complete junk that only works because they think it should. My personal headcanon, i.e. the fanon I adhere to, does not recognize or respect this alteration to the canon, because an Ork Mekboy (their engineers) that thought a skyscraper was actually a giant robot could get the damn thing to walk and shoot lasers and missiles out it's windows by welding levers and buttons to the rooftop in the old 40k, and I'm sorry, but that's just fucking awesome.

Likewise, the additions Karin Traviss made to Star Wars canon are, in fact, all canon. Most fans, however, do not respect or acknowledge this, myself included, because in spite of the fact that all of her work is true Star Wars canon, it was also a gigantic masturbatory fantasy for Boba Fett and the Mandalorians in general that shat all over the Jedi while also putting Boba, Jango, and every other member of their race on a pedestal so elaborate and over-the-top that the Olympians thought it was too ostentatious. She wrote about the Mandalorians in creepy, loving, boarderline sexual terms, and made them, all of them, out to be 'better' than the Jedi both morally and in terms of combat (which is hilarious and flies in the face of literally everything we know about both groups in question). Literally everything she did was little more than thinly-veiled fangirl wish fulfillment that gave undeserved props to the favorites while dumbing down and defacing others that she did not like or approve of (the Jedi), and it was all just as blatantly written while one-handed. Many fans were, obviously, disgusted with this blatant display of self-gratification at the expense of canon, and refuse to acknowledge it as being as such, even though it technically is. This also is an example of fanon.

Naruto, however, is not one of these settings. Naruto is written by one person, and while it is popular, it is not nearly so standalone prolific as to warrant that kind of handling. There is no such thing as fanon in Naruto by the second definition of the term (former canon that is preferred by the fan community over newer and more recent canon). There is only the first kind, i.e. the mistakes and fuckups of the fans themselves.

So yes, there is a right time to use it, but Naruto isn't that sort of setting, so in the context of the question, no. "Fanon" is nothing more than "the shit the tards over at the Narutowiki have convinced themselves is fact," and what they, or anyone else, thinks is or is not true should have absolutely no bearing on what or how you write. One of my Harry Potter oneshots got lambasted on DLP just because it obliquely involved an enchanted trunk. On the one hand, I can kind of understand the hate, because holy shit are enchanted trunks overused in wankish ways. On the other hand, hating the trunk is missing the point, because the hate was never about the trunk. It was about what all the shitty authors were doing with it, which was, to use as few words as possible, a combination of Indyharry Standard Equipment and One Of Those Things That Harry Always Buys In The Goddamn Shopping Spree Chapter Because Fuck Originality. My snippet had Harry trying to enchant one of his own for practice just to see if he could, which is totally different, and doesn't have any of the hallmarks that engendered the trunk-hate in the first place.

So basically yes, but in the context of this setting, the question doesn't even make sense, since the only fanon are the fuckups of the fans, so no.




* The general assumption for how this happened is that, at one point, some Ork made a vehicle that for some reason or another performed better than the rest, and the Orks attributed it to the color, thereby creating the expectation bias that red things go faster because they are red. Likewise, blue is something I can't remember, yellow makes things tougher, and purple is for stealth. Vehicles painted purple "can do tha' sneakin," and the same goes for Orks that paint themselves purple.

Granted, no one has ever actually seen a purple Ork, but then again, that's kind of the point.

Also, if you ever see an Ork with yellow and red warpaint, fucking run. I'm serious. Get the fuck out. That thing is bulletproof, and can run faster than most vehicles can drive.

 

[Leonite]

'Fanon' is defined as "things that the fandom assumes are canon, and yet are not."

There is no "fanon versus canon."

There is canon. And there's everything else. The delusions of the individual, or even the general masses, have no hold here, and do not enter the equation.

If the fic you're writing requires a bunch of people to form up a posse and try to kill Naruto when he's five, then that's nothing more than an event in your fic. It is no more 'fanon' than Haku surviving, or canonically being a girl, or Naruto picking up swordsmanship, or whatever.

The only time fanon ever comes into play in a discussion of fanon versus canon is for large, long-running series that have numerous 'official' contributors that tend to contradict and retroactively modify themselves and each other. In these sorts of circumstances, two views tend to emerge. The official canon, which is defined chronologically by the most recent statements of what is true, which overwrite all of the older, previous statements, and the canon that the fans, both as a group and as individuals, like, i.e. 'fanon' or "headcanon," since it's the canon you have in your head. Examples of these sorts of settings would include things like Warhammer 40k, Star Wars, the Gundam universe, the Marvelverse, Warcraft, the Power Ranger universe, the Kamen Rider universe, and the DCverse, which are large and prolific canons that encompass dozens of different, separate writers, video games, movies, reboots, alternate continuities, spin-off comics, and other such things.

For instance, the Orks in 40k used to be a whole lot cooler, but they got nerfed because. . . because fuck it, apparently. Essentially, WH40k Orks are kind of stupid and very much insane, but the 'technology' that they make works for them anyway, because they're all passively psychic, and together they form this psychic gestalt of expectations. Essentially, if they expect something to work, or work in a certain way, it will. So even though their tech is garbage, their powers bullshit what they make the rest of the way. You couldn't pick up an Ork gun (a 'Shoota') and use it reliably, because it's poorly put together, shoddy, and liable to blow up in your hands, but for an Ork, it works just fine. Likewise, you cannot make a vehicle (or yourself) move faster by painting it red, but because the Orks all believe that "red goes fasta," it does go faster*. Their powers used to be stronger, in the sense that, if you gave an Ork a random piece of scrap metal and convinced him it was a gun, it would fire bullets, but this got nerfed in the fluff because apparently the Orks were too awesome or something, and now their technology is just shitty and unreliable, as opposed to complete junk that only works because they think it should. My personal headcanon, i.e. the fanon I adhere to, does not recognize or respect this alteration to the canon, because an Ork Mekboy (their engineers) that thought a skyscraper was actually a giant robot could get the damn thing to walk and shoot lasers and missiles out it's windows by welding levers and buttons to the rooftop in the old 40k, and I'm sorry, but that's just fucking awesome.

Likewise, the additions Karin Traviss made to Star Wars canon are, in fact, all canon. Most fans, however, do not respect or acknowledge this, myself included, because in spite of the fact that all of her work is true Star Wars canon, it was also a gigantic masturbatory fantasy for Boba Fett and the Mandalorians in general that shat all over the Jedi while also putting Boba, Jango, and every other member of their race on a pedestal so elaborate and over-the-top that the Olympians thought it was too ostentatious. She wrote about the Mandalorians in creepy, loving, boarderline sexual terms, and made them, all of them, out to be 'better' than the Jedi both morally and in terms of combat (which is hilarious and flies in the face of literally everything we know about both groups in question). Literally everything she did was little more than thinly-veiled fangirl wish fulfillment that gave undeserved props to the favorites while dumbing down and defacing others that she did not like or approve of (the Jedi), and it was all just as blatantly written while one-handed. Many fans were, obviously, disgusted with this blatant display of self-gratification at the expense of canon, and refuse to acknowledge it as being as such, even though it technically is. This also is an example of fanon.

Naruto, however, is not one of these settings. Naruto is written by one person, and while it is popular, it is not nearly so standalone prolific as to warrant that kind of handling. There is no such thing as fanon in Naruto by the second definition of the term (former canon that is preferred by the fan community over newer and more recent canon). There is only the first kind, i.e. the mistakes and fuckups of the fans themselves.

So yes, there is a right time to use it, but Naruto isn't that sort of setting, so in the context of the question, no. "Fanon" is nothing more than "the shit the tards over at the Narutowiki have convinced themselves is fact," and what they, or anyone else, thinks is or is not true should have absolutely no bearing on what or how you write. One of my Harry Potter oneshots got lambasted on DLP just because it obliquely involved an enchanted trunk. On the one hand, I can kind of understand the hate, because holy shit are enchanted trunks overused in wankish ways. On the other hand, hating the trunk is missing the point, because the hate was never about the trunk. It was about what all the shitty authors were doing with it, which was, to use as few words as possible, a combination of Indyharry Standard Equipment and One Of Those Things That Harry Always Buys In The Goddamn Shopping Spree Chapter Because Fuck Originality. My snippet had Harry trying to enchant one of his own for practice just to see if he could, which is totally different, and doesn't have any of the hallmarks that engendered the trunk-hate in the first place.

So basically yes, but in the context of this setting, the question doesn't even make sense, since the only fanon are the fuckups of the fans, so no.




* The general assumption for how this happened is that, at one point, some Ork made a vehicle that for some reason or another performed better than the rest, and the Orks attributed it to the color, thereby creating the expectation bias that red things go faster because they are red. Likewise, blue is something I can't remember, yellow makes things tougher, and purple is for stealth. Vehicles painted purple "can do tha' sneakin," and the same goes for Orks that paint themselves purple.

Granted, no one has ever actually seen a purple Ork, but then again, that's kind of the point.

Also, if you ever see an Ork with yellow and red warpaint, fucking run. I'm serious. Get the fuck out. That thing is bulletproof, and can run faster than most vehicles can drive.

That got retconned? Huh, didn't seem like that to me, seemed like they kept the same implication for Orkses.

Also, as a Deathskullz fan I must point out that Orks (And Orcs in fantasy) attribute the colour blue to luck, so an Ork in blue warpaint would be luckier than others. Not only is this utterly insane, but it works, the Deathskullz are the luckiest of the major clans and wear a lot of blue on top of other superstitious things.

 

[Lord Raine]

Luck, that was it. That's what I forgot. Blue vehicles, weapons, and warpainted Orks are lucker than normal. That's what that was.

Blue is luck, purple is stealth, red is speed, I'm pretty sure yellow is toughness. I want to say that there was a strength one, too, but I'll be damned if I can remember it. There might not have been, because the only conventional color left would be green, and Orks are already green, so they might just justify that as "we is plentah strong already, cuz all da Boyz is green!" That does sound like Ork logic.

 

[Leonite]

Luck, that was it. That's what I forgot. Blue vehicles, weapons, and warpainted Orks are lucker than normal. That's what that was.

Blue is luck, purple is stealth, red is speed, I'm pretty sure yellow is toughness. I want to say that there was a strength one, too, but I'll be damned if I can remember it. There might not have been, because the only conventional color left would be green, and Orks are already green, so they might just justify that as "we is plentah strong already, cuz all da Boyz is green!" That does sound like Ork logic.

Red and Blue are the best known, but Purple was only mentioned once by a Warboss justifying his purple troops being stealthier, unlike red which is much wider spread, and blue which is to the point of the Fantasy Orcs using it.

If the next release coming out is an Ork codex (Its Ork themed in SOME way) then I'd love to see a way to make a Feral Ork army. Already half the armies are space marines, why not add more varaiaty for the others? Eldar have the right thought, you can make any of the Craftworlds with them or, if you get creative, a Harliquen Army (Same applies to Dark Eldar for the last part), Necrons can have a lot of variaty in how they are assembled now (thats a retcon I honestly don't mind, I like the change, the C'tan story seemed a bit strange to me, and I saw the personality thing happening)... but Orks can't buld, say, a Boar Boys army without counting them as Bikes. Give the Warboss a Cyboar mount option that gives them Boar Boy squads as Troops and maybe add Squiggoths, thats good enough!

Yes, I'm a Warhammer-ite. I'm also a massive hypocrite, I play Chaos Space Marines (mostly Slaanesh themed, mind).

Anyway, shall we get back on topic?

 

[Lord Raine]

In a perfect world, they'd unfuck the Ultramarines before doing anything else, but the odds of that are as long as Matthew Ward's penis is short.

The Orks have been neglected lately. Everyone else has gotten stuff, but they're mostly the same. It is more or less due for them to get some upgrades and diversification.

 

[Leonite]

In a perfect world, they'd unfuck the Ultramarines before doing anything else, but the odds of that are as long as Matthew Ward's penis is short.

The Orks have been neglected lately. Everyone else has gotten stuff, but they're mostly the same. It is more or less due for them to get some upgrades and diversification.

I can predict that the soonest ones to get updates are Orks (Games Worshops locally have been putting up Ork themed hype), Sisters of Battle (Because at most an army only gets a White Dwarf Codex for a year/year and a half) and Chaos Space Marines (Wishful thinking), although Eldar are due too.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Kumo would never ally with Iwa because they don't trust Iwa.
Danzo is likely the only person Kumo trust less than Oonoki.
And they're right in not trusting Danzo or Oonoki, as they would fuck them in the ass at the first chance.

 

[Vexarian]

...Way to be relevant ankokudaishogun.

ANYWAY, here is the ultimate opinion on the matters of Canon and Fanon. AKA "The Correct Opinion", AKA "Mine".

Canon is information contained within the source material. Where contradictions occur, newer information trumps older information. In the event of multiple iterations of the same material or material shared between multiple creators, consider them to be independent or semi-independent and whatever is closest to the source is considered "correct".

Fanon or "Headcanon" is information which is NOT contained within the source material and which does NOT CONTRADICT any information in the source material.

For example;

Canon: Kakashi Hatake has a Sharingan Eye

Fanon: Kakashi Hatake's favorite food is banana soup.

To put it simply, Fanon is and should be considered to be unofficial, supplementary information made by the fans and of a speculatory nature. A sort of "Fan-Canon" if you will. Maybe we could make some sort of snazzy short-form for the term. Fananon perhaps? Someone get on this, I think I'm on to something.

Anyway.

Canon is information contained within the source material.
Fanon is speculated information created by the fans which does NOT contradict canon.

And simply put, anything else is a complete crock. If someone claims that it is their fanon that Naruto does not actually contain the Nine Tailed Fox and is just experiencing a prolonged delusion, then that person is wrong and legally required to be punched in the face. Hit them without warning. Put your fucking back into it too.

As for what LR mentioned about expanded universe situations, well the material that Karin Traviss made for the Star Wars EU is technically canon until proven or stated otherwise by a higher source. BUT, as this is an Expanded Universe with multiple independent contributors, you can pretty much just pick and choose who's material you want to be "Canon".

 

[Ina_meishou]

EU novels are C-canon under the in-house organizational system, two levels higher than the point where things are officially recognized as noncanon

 

[Wildfeather]

...Way to be relevant ankokudaishogun.

ANYWAY, here is the ultimate opinion on the matters of Canon and Fanon. AKA "The Correct Opinion", AKA "Mine".

Canon is information contained within the source material. Where contradictions occur, newer information trumps older information. In the event of multiple iterations of the same material or material shared between multiple creators, consider them to be independent or semi-independent and whatever is closest to the source is considered "correct".

Fanon or "Headcanon" is information which is NOT contained within the source material and which does NOT CONTRADICT any information in the source material.

For example;

Canon: Kakashi Hatake has a Sharingan Eye

Fanon: Kakashi Hatake's favorite food is banana soup.

To put it simply, Fanon is and should be considered to be unofficial, supplementary information made by the fans and of a speculatory nature. A sort of "Fan-Canon" if you will. Maybe we could make some sort of snazzy short-form for the term. Fananon perhaps? Someone get on this, I think I'm on to something.

Anyway.

Canon is information contained within the source material.
Fanon is speculated information created by the fans which does NOT contradict canon.

And simply put, anything else is a complete crock. If someone claims that it is their fanon that Naruto does not actually contain the Nine Tailed Fox and is just experiencing a prolonged delusion, then that person is wrong and legally required to be punched in the face. Hit them without warning. Put your fucking back into it too.

As for what LR mentioned about expanded universe situations, well the material that Karin Traviss made for the Star Wars EU is technically canon until proven or stated otherwise by a higher source. BUT, as this is an Expanded Universe with multiple independent contributors, you can pretty much just pick and choose who's material you want to be "Canon".

Just to be obnoxious, i'd like to point out that Kakashi has a canon favorite food. Most of the main characters do.

 

[Vexarian]

...Way to be relevant ankokudaishogun.

ANYWAY, here is the ultimate opinion on the matters of Canon and Fanon. AKA "The Correct Opinion", AKA "Mine".

Canon is information contained within the source material. Where contradictions occur, newer information trumps older information. In the event of multiple iterations of the same material or material shared between multiple creators, consider them to be independent or semi-independent and whatever is closest to the source is considered "correct".

Fanon or "Headcanon" is information which is NOT contained within the source material and which does NOT CONTRADICT any information in the source material.

For example;

Canon: Kakashi Hatake has a Sharingan Eye

Fanon: Kakashi Hatake's favorite food is banana soup.

To put it simply, Fanon is and should be considered to be unofficial, supplementary information made by the fans and of a speculatory nature. A sort of "Fan-Canon" if you will. Maybe we could make some sort of snazzy short-form for the term. Fananon perhaps? Someone get on this, I think I'm on to something.

Anyway.

Canon is information contained within the source material.
Fanon is speculated information created by the fans which does NOT contradict canon.

And simply put, anything else is a complete crock. If someone claims that it is their fanon that Naruto does not actually contain the Nine Tailed Fox and is just experiencing a prolonged delusion, then that person is wrong and legally required to be punched in the face. Hit them without warning. Put your fucking back into it too.

As for what LR mentioned about expanded universe situations, well the material that Karin Traviss made for the Star Wars EU is technically canon until proven or stated otherwise by a higher source. BUT, as this is an Expanded Universe with multiple independent contributors, you can pretty much just pick and choose who's material you want to be "Canon".

Just to be obnoxious, i'd like to point out that Kakashi has a canon favorite food. Most of the main characters do.

You get the fucking point.

Also Japanese Mangaka are weirdos who really just leave nothing to the god damn imagination.

 

[goldenarms]

:mellow:

You know, I always thought fanon was a collection of ideas that fans claim as canon, even though they don't appear in their respective works. Like Hinata the chronic stutterer is a fanon belief or that Naruto was chased and beaten by mobs as a child. A cursory look through the manga would be proof enough that those beliefs are pretty inaccurate, but they've become popular takes on the characters to the point that few check the unsubstantiated claims. Especially problematic with people that write fanfiction without ever having seen/read one page of the actual source materials.

Shocking and horrifying, I know, but it does happen far, far, far more often than you'd want to believe.

Sure, some fanon won't contradict the original source, due to lack of exploration of said concepts in-canon -- for example, Hinata's mother being dead; Sakura's family being civilians; civilians living in hidden villages in general. But mostly, fanon is generally applied to concepts that have no legs to stand on, but remain popular takes in spite of the fact.

 

[Lord Raine]

The Karin Traviss novels are all C Class canon according to the Star Wars in-house system of measuring canon. That means they are concretely canon until something contradicts them, and nothing currently does.

Likewise, George Lucas himself stated that Revan was an evil Sith, and that's Word of God, and thus, overriding canon.

This does not mean fans will not tell Traviss and Lucas to go fuck themselves. We can, will, and do. That is fanon. The canon of the fans.

Han shot first.

 

[Shirotsume]

Han shot first.

Amen.

 

[Ashaman]

:mellow:

You know, I always thought fanon was a collection of ideas that fans claim as canon, even though they don't appear in their respective works. Like Hinata the chronic stutterer is a fanon belief or that Naruto was chased and beaten by mobs as a child. A cursory look through the manga would be proof enough that those beliefs are pretty inaccurate, but they've become popular takes on the characters to the point that few check the unsubstantiated claims. Especially problematic with people that write fanfiction without ever having seen/read one page of the actual source materials.

Shocking and horrifying, I know, but it does happen far, far, far more often than you'd want to believe.

Sure, some fanon won't contradict the original source, due to lack of exploration of said concepts in-canon -- for example, Hinata's mother being dead; Sakura's family being civilians; civilians living in hidden villages in general. But mostly, fanon is generally applied to concepts that have no legs to stand on, but remain popular takes in spite of the fact.

This has always been my interpretation of fanon as well.

Ideas that have taken hold in the fandom that aren't canon, but can range from plausable to absurd.

Depending on the plasuiblity and how well any one person knows canon, people may begin to believe the fanon is actually canon.

Like, I'm pretty sure lots of people believe that the council actually exists.

I think the LR has just defined fanon when its dealing with a true canon source and a lesser canon source, while you've defined it in terms of canon source - noncanon source.

 

[Vexarian]

The Karin Traviss novels are all C Class canon according to the Star Wars in-house system of measuring canon. That means they are concretely canon until something contradicts them, and nothing currently does.

Likewise, George Lucas himself stated that Revan was an evil Sith, and that's Word of God, and thus, overriding canon.

This does not mean fans will not tell Traviss and Lucas to go fuck themselves. We can, will, and do. That is fanon. The canon of the fans.

Han shot first.

I just have a hard time believing that anyone could define Revan as a definitively "Evil" anything.

I mean for fuck's sakes his entire plan was to prepare the galaxy to take on a Sith fucking Empire and he was doing so in such a way as to achieve this goal regardless of if he won or lost.

 

[Lord Raine]

The Karin Traviss novels are all C Class canon according to the Star Wars in-house system of measuring canon. That means they are concretely canon until something contradicts them, and nothing currently does.

Likewise, George Lucas himself stated that Revan was an evil Sith, and that's Word of God, and thus, overriding canon.

This does not mean fans will not tell Traviss and Lucas to go fuck themselves. We can, will, and do. That is fanon. The canon of the fans.

Han shot first.

I just have a hard time believing that anyone could define Revan as a definitively "Evil" anything.

I mean for fuck's sakes his entire plan was to prepare the galaxy to take on a Sith fucking Empire and he was doing so in such a way as to achieve this goal regardless of if he won or lost.

It's because Revan used the Dark Side, and Lucas didn't like the fact that certain characters, comics, and books were pitching the Dark Side as something that could be harnessed to limited degrees without losing yourself to it. He Word of God retconed a ton of shit in sweeping gestures, making all the characters who were doing it or believed it could be done either hilariously naive and mistaken or secretly evil, a bunch of 'boarderline' powers were summarily declared Dark, and Electric Judgment, a power that the Jedi Corran Horn had spent a lifetime refining and perfecting by meditating on the concept of using measured violence and force to uphold justice and protect the innocent (essentially, it's Light Side Force Lightning) was declared Dark and Horn painted alternately as a raving idiot and secret Sith, because fuck Corran Horn, apparently.

Revan is just one in a long list of the victims of that Lucas has struck down as being Dark and/or stupid.

Also, <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potentium' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>the one competing philosophy that the expanded universe invented that was actually interesting and gave the Jedi Code a run for it's money</a> was summarily declared to actually be a secret Sith cult that the Sith had made eons ago to make people more susceptible to the Dark Side, and the Grey Jedi have been Word of Goded as being the dangerous and unstable renegades that the old Jedi Councils have always claimed they were.

Essentially, Lucas doesn't want there to be ambiguity in the division between the Light and the Dark. He doesn't like anything that paints the Dark side as something that could potentially be controlled or touched without making you go all Sith-ey, and he doesn't like anything that implies that the Jedi could be wrong about something in terms of morality and ethics. He came within pissing distance of calling Windu a Sith just because he invented and mastered Vaapad, i.e. controlled combat immersion into the Dark Side.

This is why he shot down the Grey Jedi and the Potentium in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook. Because they were both ideas that potentially proved that the Jedi were wrong about certain things regarding the Force. The Grey Jedi thought true balance between both sides was possible, and the real goal of any true practitioner of the Force, and the Potentium believed that the "Light Side" was actually "the Force," and that what we know as the 'Dark Side' is actually a perversion of the Force that comes from within us. Essentially, there is no Dark Side, except the Dark Side that we introduce into the Force. All Force users should strive above all else to be good people who have suppressed the evil and darkness in their hearts, and if they do this, then all Force techniques are open to them, since there are no "Dark" techniques, merely techniques that are easier than others to be made Dark by us. Force Choke and Force Lightning can be used to save lives, they argue, while Force Healing can be used to murder with a touch. Ultimately, it is the individual that determines the boundaries of the Light and Dark. It is not some grand conflict of all Jedi versus all Sith. Rather, it is a personal conflict, a battle within the heart and mind of the individual wielder of the Force. A true Master of the Force, they argued, can use all techniques and powers, and turn them all to good.

Then they were made into a corrupt, insane Sith cult in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook, because fuck you the Jedi are never wrong about anything. Which is essentially the view Lucas has taken towards everything. Fuck you, the Jedi are never wrong about anything. The Grey Jedi are unstable renegades, the Potentium is a Sith cult, all these 'new' Force powers that take off from the Dark Side but are used for good things are also Dark. There will be no compromise, there will be no ambiguity, the Jedi were never wrong about anything.

This actually created a giant continuity snarl, because for a very long period of time (over fifty years), Luke Motherfucking Skywalker and the entire New Republic Jedi Order subscribed to the teachings of Potentium. There has never been a suitable explanation provided for why the Jesus of the setting (Luke) was a Potentite if it was so evil and wrong, nor why they all randomly decided to turn away from it after teaching it for decades.

Lucas didn't just screw over Revan. He farked the entire Star Wars continuity in ways that are essentially impossible to reconcile, not the least of which involved. . .

Look, you need to understand something. Luke's New Republic Jedi Order is widely considered to be the Golden Age of the Jedi, and it has been canonically pitched as this for over almost a hundred books, thrice as many comics, and about a dozen video games. Luke was tearing down and throwing away all of the things that the Old Orders had been doing, and starting over from scratch, doing things the way he thought they should be done, and this was universally pitched as being an insanely good thing. Even Yoda himself showed up via Force Vision to basically confirm that what Luke did is what they should have been doing all along, and yes, Luke is The One, and everything he's touching is in fact turning to gold.

This is a time when Jedi Knights roamed the Republic freely in groups and pairs with the blessing of Order and Republic to kick ass and be awesome, like the most amazing buddy-cop series of all goddamn time. Sex was allowed, as was marriage and families. It was even encouraged, because love and marital devotion were not seen as evil things. Jedi Clans and families are formed, which consistently produced entire rosters of ridiculous badasses who were all related and totally game for fucking the Dark Side's shit up. People with the talent were volunteering for Jedi training as teenagers and young adults instead of being kidnapped from their homes as infants. This was the era that gave us some of the greatest Jedi badasses of Star Wars canon, like Corran Horn, the Sunrider Jedi family, Kyle Motherfucking Katarn. There were so many badass Jedi and Jedi-associates running around that the Extended Universe authors had to invent a metric fuckton of crime lords, conspiracies, civil wars, and Sith artifacts just to keep them all busy. They had to bring the Emperor back using cloning, like, five times just to provide a challenge for them. You couldn't swing a lightsaber in the New Republic without hitting some insane Grand Moff, forgotten Imperial Superweapon, or Palpatine clone.

The New Republic Jedi? They kicked all of their asses, and they looked awesome doing it. The memetic badassery of some of these heroes defies belief. Luke was Gandalf, Jesus, Neo, and the Highlander combined into a single person. Literally every single Jedi Master under Luke's Order became an army-slaying Force demigod. Jedi were running around with guns, grenades, and power armor, piloting ships and stabbing people in the back with metal swords like goddamn ninja, and not only was Luke was totally chill with it, but he kept a giant armory and hangar bay fully stocked so a Jedi could swing by the temple, meditate, teach some students, and then grab a shotgun, grenade bandoleer, and top-of-the-line ship on their way out the door to kick Evil in the balls. Chuck Norris was actually a Kyle Katarn cosplayer who got the outfit wrong. If you get the right writers (and there are many good ones in this era), this shit will literally blow your mind. It is that good.

According to Lucas, this was in fact the darkest time of Jedi history. Why? What possible plot could be revealed that was running all along? What Aizen-esque twist could possibly justify saying that these were, in fact, our darkest hours? Is it Palpatine? Palpatine's master? The machinations of some secret Sith Lord? Some terrorist plot? Treachery in the high echelons of the New Republic?

No. Because the entire Jedi Order was nearly extinguished due to becoming a giant Sith cult.

Because Luke believed in Potentia for fifty years, and taught it to his students.

You have. . . you just have no idea how much canon Lucas raped with this little correction spree of his. It comes across as childish and stupid, sure, but it also turns the canon into a gigantic clusterfuck of contradictions. Luke believed in Potentia for fifty years, and taught it to every Jedi who ever passed through the walls of his academy. Then he just randomly up and decides 'ah, nope, that's evil and Sith and bad,' and no explanation for this is ever given. There is no reason for him to switch sides or flip-flop like this. He just does.

All because the Jedi, the old Jedi, are, to Lucas, infallible. They cannot be wrong about anything, so the idea of Luke founding a New Order on a non-Jedi philosophy and having it succeeding is just completely unacceptable. So he just retconed it all away. Corran Horn? Crazy, possibly evil, at the very least misguided. Luke? Wrong. Kyle Katarn? A dangerous renegade. All of the Grey Jedi (a great many of which were in fact associated with Luke's New Order)? Also dangerous renegades. Lucas essentially grabbed a brush and dragged it across a lineup of some of the most developed and beloved New Republic era Jedi characters. Cult cult cult cult renegade renegade dangerous insane stupid naive an idiot cult cult some more cult evil secretly a Sith fell to the Dark Side and hid it stupid insane crazy naive cult.


YOU CANNOT EVEN BEGIN TO FATHOM HOW MUCH STAR WARS FANS FUCKING HATE GEORGE LUCAS


You cannot. You really can't. If you're just a passing fan, if you've just seen the movies and read one or two of the books, maybe played a few of the games once or twice, you cannot grasp the depths of screaming, molten HATE that the hardcore fans, the fans who read the comics and follow the books and buy all the games, have for George Lucas.

For the love of God, his studio canceled the Republic Commando sequel, and shot down the KotOR I-II uncut remakes.

All of the books, all of the games, all of the comics. Even the movies themselves. There is not one part of this canon that Lucas has not ruined, desecrated, destroyed, or otherwise meddled in to it's detriment.

I will cry. I will cry, and from my tears shall form a crystal sword of absolute malice, a pure and undiluted hatred. I shall then take that keenest blade, and with glittering cuts and shimmering slices, I will carve Lucas's heart out, and nail it to the door of his ranch.

 

[Ina_meishou]

Heh, it's such a shame that the Potentium and the Unifying Force got labeled as dark. The Living Force is so....dull.

 

[Ashaman]

I've only watched the movies and played a couple of the games, but God damn do I love LR's rants.

Most amusing things on this forum, barring the rare God-Tier fic.

Been doing any MST's recently Raine?

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

I maintain that George Lucas isn't even human, but is in fact a robot sent from the future to drive mankind into such a frothing rage that it nukes itself into oblivion and allows the radroaches to inherit the Earth.

 

[Antimatter]

I maintain that George Lucas isn't even human, but is in fact a robot sent from the future to drive mankind into such a frothing rage that it nukes itself into oblivion and allows the radroaches to inherit the Earth.

Now that's an idea. After mankind nukes itself into the stone age, a race of cockroach decendent intelligent beings evolve and take over the world. After discovering time ravel in the far future, they learn that mindkind was driven to war by a certain type of robot, one which they had previously invented. Knowing that they owe their evolution to this, they quickly send one back in time to enginer the events that lead to their own creation.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

George Lucas is, in fact, a Sith.
Just think about it, it makes every kind of sense!