Nasuverse FSN + SAO: j-jam it in!

[Abendroth]

So proximately, I want to ask:
When I described the "mass-fraction" way to make swords, did you immediately think "oh! Then I should add 2 %wt charcoal to my iron to make STEEL", or not? Because that gag with Liz won't work unless most people didn't immediately think "STEEL TIME."

I didn't begin thinking "STEEL TIME" until you got to the part where Shirou could analyze the impurities in the ore, at which point I started thinking "Okay, I want to have X% Nickle, Y% Chromium..." I am rather better educated than most people on the topic though. As long as the [Refine Metal] skill doesn't have a menu with a slot specially marked "Additives" I think most people won't remember that until Shirou points it out, if they actually knew.

"Damascus Steel" usually refers to a Wootz steel, which is a martensite/pearlite matrix, with a pattern of banding or sheeting of micro carbides. (That much I had to look up on Wikipedia). To this day we don't know how exactly it was produced, but the metullurgy is pretty well understood.

Wootz steel looks like Damascus Steel, but as I recall, elemental analysis of the surviving authentic Damascus blades revealed that they also had an abnormally high concentration of Carbon-60, which is believed to have contributed to their lightness and flexibility. The ore came from a single mine, and when the mine was played out, "Damascus Steel" blades stopped being made.


It is possible to synthesize C-60 relatively simply, but separating it out from the non-C-60 created at the same time is absurd in the real world. Magic may offer a more effective means, if anyone has both the magical and chemical knowledge (assuming the simulation even models that).

Edit: About charging for swords, I was going to say that he should be charging for them, not because he wants money, but because he can only produce a limited number of swords, and a cost would mean that the swords he did make would go to the people who had assessed their skills and determined that this sword was the most effective way to improve their abilities. The price would go down over time, as he works his way through equipping the "high priority" builds, to the "medium priority" down to the people who just get one because "hey, why not?". If the number of customers is low enough that he can keep up with 100% of the demand (and that's REAL demand, not economist-demand) then selling them for free makes sense. He may feel that he owes Taka and Liz something in exchange for using their forge though.

 

[Sunhawk]

Well, I've only taken a couple courses, if you're interested, you could go get your doctorate studying this kind of stuff and then become a professor of metallurgy for the rest of your life learning more.

I vaguely recall a while back some grad student figuring out a way of making stronger steel using some kind of flash heating method (or something along those lines), so there's still advancement in 'old' metallurgical recipes.

 

[Abendroth]

I want to actually sit down and nail down a title for this!

I had a thought:
Soul/Art Online.

 

[violinmana]

Swords/Sorcery Online

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Y'all are late, as he's already chosen a name and started posting it on FF.net.

 

[violinmana]

That sucks.

I was originally going to go with "Aww.", but the system assist doesn't allow for replies less than 7 characters.

 

[bhl88]

Sword/Stay Online

Yeah I guess it's too late to use this

 

[Archerreborn2]

On the topic of Shirou creating swords, I had an idea.

Since Shirou can access the skills of the wielders of the NP in his UBW he should be able to give the weapons he creates some of their abilities through [replication of history]. If we look at the steps to creating a NP
1. Judging the concept of creation
2. Hypothesizing the basic structure
3. Duplicating the composition material
4. Imitating the skill of its making
5. Sympathizing with the experience of its growth
6. Reproducing the accumulated years
7. Excelling every manufacturing process
(taken from TL Wiki)

Steps 4, 5, and 6 I think could apply when he is forging in SAO. In this case instead of importing the skills of the wielder into himself, he exports the [attributes] of the NP into the sword. It would be something of a imperfect imitation. Creating an artificial history for his SAO weapon. Since they are in the Cardinal System these [attributes] wouldn't perfectly transfer over though as Cardinal has to interpret and covert the information from his External Database. Conceptual abilities I doubt could be comprehended, but that's why it's an imperfect imitation. This would make Shirou's blacksmithing unique even in SAO. His element is Sword and so is his origin, that should allow him to work in a way with swords that no one else can.

For example if Shirou was to enhance a spear that he made with the [attributes] of Gae Dearg, the parameters of the spear such as it's sharpness wouldn't change but it would gain an [attribute] that allows it to go through all magic defense. Such [attributes] like piercing the heart before even attacking wouldn't be carried over because Cardinal can't understand it.

This could also be a good way for Kirito and crew to get a hint that Shirou isn't a normal person. The fact that he has the history of legendary weapons stored inside him should raise some questions. At least after they realize how he is creating all these [attributes]. It would also set the groundwork for Shirou to trace easier once he backs to the real world.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Creating an artificial history for his SAO weapon.

That would make his creation an illusion which is eventually crushed by the world, rather than a permanent object that the world supports.

Recreating a sword's history is how he says, "This sword IS Excalibur. Not a copy, but the original, real deal. This sword experienced all the battles, broke all the swords, killed all the men and slayed all of the dragons that the original did. Because it IS the orignal Excalibur. Honest."

Obviously, that's untrue. The world knows it's untrue. It's a contradiction or paradox that the world will not tolerate. That's why it fades.

But it's also how Shirou's copies can be as powerful as they are; if he didn't recreate the history, obviously the sword would not be Excalibur. It might be "Excalibur, fresh from the forge". (But even that would still be a contradiction, because of the other factors which are impossibly copied from the real thing. Lies like, "This real Excalibur was made from the exact same real steel ingot as the original. Really.")


I think that if Shirou could apply any of the steps, it would 1, 2, 4 and 7.

1 and 2 are just the planning stage. Coming up with the concept and the design.

4 and 7 are the stages related to taking materials and rendering them into the final product.

All the other steps involve totally copying the exact materials that were used to create the originals and the exact molecular arrangements that those materials came to have. Skipping those steps allows Shirou to use materials LIKE those used in the original, allows those real materials to assume similar patterns, and allows the weapon to accumulate a history that the world actually accepts as true.

It would be like creating a new leaf, rather than the same exact leaf. Same composition, same basic structure, same function, but not an impossibly precise reconstruction which could not possibly have happened naturally. (Especially not with a history that says, "This is the very same exact leaf as that leaf over there, which now happens to be occuping two different places in space/time.)

In this way, he COULD recreate Noble Phantasms as humbler Mystic Codes without the power-ups of legend and age... but only if he has the same kind of materials as were used to create the originals in the first place.

He'll never be able to gather all of the hopes and dreams of mankind to make another Excalibur, though if he got the sea-serpent bone that, in some accounts, was used to make Gae Bolg, he could make something like Gae Bolg.

I don't think he could create another Ea even with another deposit of otherworldly material, because he just couldn't comprehend the material that Ea was made of. If he can't understand what he's looking at, could he do anything with it?

 

[Archerreborn2]

In my idea I wasn't thinking of fully recreating a Noble Phantasm. Like I said in my earlier post what I wanted to do was give Shirou's swords [attributes] similar to those of legendary weapons. Shirou would create for the sword he made a [fake] history to empower the sword. This isn't a real life example but I think it still works. For example Gut's sword in Berserk, it started off as just a normal sword (but a lot bigger) yet eventually after slaying enough demons his sword gained mystical properties. This would be how Shirou gives his swords powers. By artificially creating a history for it. He is not making it into a Noble Phantasm, but merely imprinting the unique powers of the NP unto it. Lets say that he tries to enhance a sword with [abilities] from Excalibur. The sword parameters like sharpness or durability wouldn't change. It would only gain an ability like [light] since Cardinal wouldn't be able to understand the nature of Excalibur. In fact for a sword like that it might be impossible for Shirou to export any abilities from it to his SAO sword.

I agree that there is no way that Shirou could possibly recreate EA, not even a little bit.

In the end I don't think the method matters so much as Shirou should be able to use his database to enhance his swords. Since Shirou has an element of Sword as well as an origin of Sword. We could consider him 'like a sword'. Since he uses his database to enhance himself who is 'like a sword'. Shouldn't he be able to use his database to enhance swords themselves?

 

[Sunder the Gold]

In my idea I wasn't thinking of fully recreating a Noble Phantasm.

I didn't say you were. I said you were including one of the parts that Shirou does which makes his copies into illusions. It won't work.

Also, Shirou's creations would be Mystic Codes. They could NOT be Noble Phantasms without becoming widely famous (such as across an entire metropolitan area, like Tokyo at least). His creations would also not have the power acquired from extremely advanced age.

Conveniently making a Mystic Code into a permanent Noble Phantasm is impossible without lots and lots of propaganda and media exposure, and maybe also some ridiculously powerful time-accelerating magic.

Like I said in my earlier post what I wanted to do was give Shirou's swords [attributes] similar to those of legendary weapons.

Like I said, the only way to do that in a permanent, meaningful fashion is to use the same sort of materials and the same plans and techniques that went into making the originals. That's what will give them the same basic powers.

Or at least the ones that didn't originate from legends. Shirou can't replicate powers that the weapons never originally had, since those did not arise from design. He has no talent at reproducing spiritual qualities with conventional magecraft.

Shirou would create for the sword he made a [fake] history to empower the sword. This isn't a real life example but I think it still works. For example Gut's sword in Berserk, it started off as just a normal sword (but a lot bigger) yet eventually after slaying enough demons his sword gained mystical properties. This would be how Shirou gives his swords powers.

Listen: That worked permanently for Guts' sword because it really happened. It wasn't faked.

If Shirou fakes the history, the world will crush that history. The sword he forges will be reduced to the sword he forged, if not erased entirely.

Doesn't matter if the fake is a total fabrication rather than a copy of some exact history. If anything, that would just be easier for the world to recognize and erase, because it would have no basis in reality at all.

It won't work.

 

[Archerreborn2]

Fair enough, you raised some good points. There goes my idea.

 

[Ravraxas]

Hello! First I would like to say that this fic is awesome and I really, really like it. I like it so much that it has gotten me out of lurking .

That said, here are some thoughts about it. I hope they are useful.

Arias

I have noticed a distict lack of [Arias] in the fic. Only Shirou and Rin are shown to use them at all. This strikes me as odd, given that [Arias] are a fundamental tool for [Magecraft] and should certainly be featured in a fic that make it such a central part of the story.

In addition, Arias are a great tool for characterization. As they are unique to each character what an [Aria] sais and the [Language] it's spoken in say a lot about a character. For example, Shirou(both as Emiya Shirou and as Archer) normaly goes about his arias in a descriptive, machine like manner, but almost always that his magecraft can be constructed as having to do with his Reality Marble he goes poetic with things like "I am the bone of my sword" or "my heart is twisted to the core".

Granted, most of the players would use [Arias] in [That Really Bad Engrish] japanese schoolchildren are known for. But I still believe they can add a lot to central characters like Kirito, Asuna or even Ilya (as we never got to read her [Arias] in FSN).

Kirito could take advantage of his computing background and go straight on using [Spoken Code] as his [Arias] with thing like: "Strength equals Strength plus ten" for a use of Reinforcement or "Add Ether plus fifteen" for an Alteration of the element of an object. They would be singular instructions for simple magic like [Structural or Elemental Magecraft], but higher spells would use longer sections of code.

Geomancy

This is a really important part of Thaumaturgy and Formalcraft as it allows the user to draw incredible amounts of [Mana] from the [Ley Lines] to fuel really big spells like [Bounded Fields] or [Rituals] like the [Grail War]. In the Tsukihime manga, Roa was using the town's Geomancy to provide [Prana] for his spells so he could be powerful enough to fight Arcueid. I mention it because this is explicitly pointed as a very [Magus-like] thing to do.

So, if you are going to explore Bounded Fields and arcane contructions latter this is something you have to take into account. The players will have to learn how to deal with [Geomancy], at least, they sould learn how to disrrupt [Geomantic Workings] set by other [Magi] so they can bring down [Bounded Fields] and other defenses. The [Gobbtopya Arc] of [Floors] would be ideal for this, as the [Goblin City] should be a mess of [Thaumaturgic Traps], [Bounded Fields] and [Weird Geomancy]. Otherwise, the [Survival Arc] seems like a perfect place to introduce the basics.

Also, [Arquitecture] is the main way one can control the [Geomancy] of a [City]. So, maybe the game should take upon itself to teach the players interested to go deep into [Geomancy] and give the option to micromanage the [Arquitecture] of their buildings. Having the characters comment on the inconveniences the bad [Geomancy] of the [First Cities] they built gives them would be a nice touch.

Whow, this is already a monster of a post, so I will leave it here. Maybe latter I will post more.

 

[MasalaQuaker]

I have noticed a distict lack of [Arias] in the fic. Only Shirou and Rin are shown to use them at all. This strikes me as odd, given that [Arias] are a fundamental tool for [Magecraft] and should certainly be featured in a fic that make it such a central part of the story.

I noticed this as well. However, I'm not bothered by it yet. At this point they're probably using the system assist's hypnotism, and arias will come in later to up efficiency. Or something.

 

[Lost Star]

On a different tangent. The system is sorta doing mind reading correct? Is it capable of accessing Shiro's sword knowledge?

It would be kinda interesting if it used that to adapt the assist system with swordplay to take that into account. Seeing some of the players imitate Heroic capabilities sounds amusing.

 

[Deathwings]

On the subject of sword forging and empowering, one thing should be kept in mind : while just copy/pasting a NP's history should very much be impossible, the fact is that Shirou does have access to all of his weapon's ENTIRE history. That include HOW they were forged. So in effect, Shirou could totally use UBW like the Deadliest Cookbook Ever, only he wouldn't be making cakes.

 

[rajvir]

On the subject of sword forging and empowering, one thing should be kept in mind : while just copy/pasting a NP's history should very much be impossible, the fact is that Shirou does have access to all of his weapon's ENTIRE history. That include HOW they were forged. So in effect, Shirou could totally use UBW like the Deadliest Cookbook Ever, only he wouldn't be making cakes.

While he certainly should not be able to make noble phantoms doing this I believe he should be able to make mystic codes that have weaker effects that are similar to the Noble phantom.
(Got the idea from Sunder the Gold)

 

[daniel_gudman]

Arias

I have noticed a distict lack of [Arias] in the fic. Only Shirou and Rin are shown to use them at all. This strikes me as odd, given that [Arias] are a fundamental tool for [Magecraft] and should certainly be featured in a fic that make it such a central part of the story.....

What are you even talking abou--
oh
oh shit
you're right

I just... totally forgot about this.

Whelp, it's going on the checklist of things to do.

On a different tangent. The system is sorta doing mind reading correct? Is it capable of accessing Shiro's sword knowledge?

Eh, probably not; Shirou has, like, infinite memory because he's got an entire dimension of pseudo-computronium to work with or something. Well, they might interact.

Shirou becoming the "Type of Aincrad", or somebody getting contracted into the Counter Force (of Aincrad) or something equally absurd might occur in the endgame, if that's
1) Relevant
2) Not Excessive or pointless or dumb
3) Makes thematic sense

So there's all kinds of stuff that could happen in that direction. I'm just not really sure what to do with Cardinal (as a charater) yet; we'll see what happens during the Yui arc, I guess.

 

[rajvir]

Is your checklist of things to do for the story long?

 

[Azure]

About Arias, I think that right now they are using some type of system assist from the game, but that probably will change as they clear floors and the games becomes more real.

Regarding Kirito's aria, I kinda see him using computer coding (like in C++) to describe the effects of his spells, similar to the Mages (Soul Hackers) from extra that use to code their spells.

 

[Ryune]

Shirou becoming the "Type of Aincrad", or somebody getting contracted into the Counter Force (of Aincrad) or something equally absurd might occur in the endgame, if that's
1) Relevant
2) Not Excessive or pointless or dumb
3) Makes thematic sense

So there's all kinds of stuff that could happen in that direction. I'm just not really sure what to do with Cardinal (as a charater) yet; we'll see what happens during the Yui arc, I guess.

Don't be silly, Yui is TYPE-Aincrad and Cardinal is it's Gaia analogue.

Also a niggling thought dropped into my mind but... how long will it be until Kayaba loses control of parts of Aincrad?

 

[Ravraxas]

Arias
...

What are you even talking abou--
oh
oh shit
you're right

I just... totally forgot about this.

Whelp, it's going on the checklist of things to do.

I'm glad that was useful ^_^

Shirou becoming the "Type of Aincrad", or somebody getting contracted into the Counter Force (of Aincrad) or something equally absurd might occur in the endgame, if that's
1) Relevant
2) Not Excessive or pointless or dumb
3) Makes thematic sense

So there's all kinds of stuff that could happen in that direction. I'm just not really sure what to do with Cardinal (as a charater) yet; we'll see what happens during the Yui arc, I guess.

Personally, I really like your plan of Shirou as The Magus Killer being the final boss of SAO. I mean, I have this mental image of Shirou doing his best Kiritsugu impersonation and going apeshit with Terror tactics on the players and somehow managing to be nice about it.

I can hear him: "Just try a little harder. You almost killed me last time. Come on, you can do it!"

In my mind he is wearing his red scraf and the Cloack of the Night that Kirito would have gotten in the first boos room in canon SAO. He would totally look like this: Young Archer from Fate/Extra.

Somehow I think this would be cheapened if he were to "cheat" by doing somethig other than being totally ruthless.

 

[MasalaQuaker]

I just... totally forgot about this.

Whelp, it's going on the checklist of things to do.

Kibaou's party healbot was noted to be using an aria, as I recall. So I guess he's surprisingly ahead of the curve in that respect.

Shirou becoming the "Type of Aincrad", or somebody getting contracted into the Counter Force (of Aincrad) or something equally absurd might occur in the endgame, if that's
1) Relevant
2) Not Excessive or pointless or dumb
3) Makes thematic sense

This does sound pretty silly.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Arias
Geomancy

Good ideas, all around. Thanks for sharing.

Personally, I really like your plan of Shirou as The Magus Killer being the final boss of SAO.

That should TOTALLY be his "boss name".

[The Magus Killer "Emiya Shirou"]

It not only harkens back to his adoptive father, it also reflects the fact that the Magus Game was meant to turn the SAO players into magi. While a number of them would still be magic-users rather than magi, and some of them might even be magus killers, Kayaba is going to use Shirou to show the magic-users and magus killers "how it's done", and as a final test for the magi in how deadly magus killers can really be.

On the subject of sword forging and empowering, one thing should be kept in mind

On the subject of contributing to the conversation, one should read what was said.

Because I said all of that. Twice.

 

[shioran toushin]

sort of "what to do when encountering a freaking Knight Templar Determinator who's won the Cosmic Power lottery and is gunning for you" kind of deal?