Harry Potter Harry Potter in the Victorian Age

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#1
This is one of two ideas I've had from a discussion about whether Wizards are Victorian or not (mostly not, BTW), also inspired by the fact that HP was inspired somewhat by Tom Brown's School Days, and the lack of Children's Services noticing Harry.

So, in 1881, Harry's parents are killed, and Harry is left on the Dursley's doorstep. The Dursley's keep him, mostly out of fear of what Dumbledore will do if they don't, and treat him more-or-less like canon - though they might have a manservant and/or maidservant who treats him better; either way, he won't be *quite* the Harry of canon, because he'll have Victorian manners. Dudley and his gang will probably do their bullying rather differently, being Victorian middle class children, and if Dudley doesn't keep his grades up, Harry may not be the only one who needs to worry about a beating from Vernon. In 1891, Harry gets a letter from Hogwarts, meets Hagrid, and so forth. The Wizarding World he enters is not that different from canon, apart from little things like the Wizarding Wireless not having 'Wizarding' in front of it, because there's no Muggle wireless to distinguish it from... or maybe it has a different name, entirely. This will lead to a lot of culture shock.

On the train, Harry meets Ron Weasley, a rude young man of the Wizarding lower middle class, at best, and Hermione Granger, a well read young lady of at least the upper middle class. Being children of the late-Victorian middle class, the guardians of morality in that era, both Harry and Hermione are quite horribly shocked by many things about the Wizarding World:

Both Ron and Draco are dreadfully rude by Victorian standards, and Draco is supposed to be in the Wizarding upper class! (They're going to see a lot of that, from the purebloods, and some of the half-bloods. Polite behavior was one way the Victorians 'proved' they were more civilized than everybody else, and only the muggleborns and some of the half-bloods have proper manners.)

The robes are so short, you can see the girls' ankles!

Not only is the school co-educational (a fairly new idea in that era), but the dorms have a shared common room, and no chaperones! Sure, the boys can't get up the girls' stairs, but they can meet in the common room, and sneak off together - and they do! For that matter, the girls can go up the boys' stairs, and visit their beds!

The bit in Dumbledore's opening remarks about dying a most ghastly death isn't likely to inspire confidence in them, either.

Another thing they're likely to have a problem with later on is how openly corrupt the Wizarding government is - the Victorians were about as corrupt as any other era, but they hid it fairly well. Appearing to be enlightened was a very important thing to the Victorians, and corruption is not enlightened. Not so sure how they'll feel about Snape and Binns, as I haven't read Tom Brown's School Days.

I would say that the muggleborns, and the more muggle-raised half-bloods, like Harry, are likely to group together, being surrounded by savages as they are, even ignoring House lines. The muggleborn and half-blood group for Harry's year may be lead by Justin Finch-Fletchley, as he appears to have the right breeding - he was down for Eton, before he got his Hogwarts letter. The group as a whole will probably be lead by someone in the upper years, of course, but I figure each year will have a leader, as well. Harry might still be friends with Ron, as he was really desperate for a friend at the time, but if so, Hermione won't be the only one correcting Ron's manners.

So, thoughts?
 

kingdark

Well-Known Member
#2
I considered an idea similar to this one only a time back. When guns and gunpower are making their way into their muggle armies. Either in the time of napoleon or during the american vs english war
 

Jomasten

Well-Known Member
#3
Not enough Fleur in that idea.

Sneak in Fleur making out/snogging with Tonks in there somewhere, and I will prbably provide a more viable, to my standards, input. :p

Semi-seriously.

The dynamics are going to be interesting. Have seen some Victorian dramas on PBS, so at least have a vague idea on how social interactions are going to work out. Will Harry still be the Victorian equivalent of an unwanted child, or aill he the unwanted child that the Dursleys indulge to the most minimal extent?
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#4
To go full on victorian.....Harry and Hermione would essentially be OCs wearing names from canon. I don't have a problem with that but some will.

To do this right, you'd need to seriously flesh out the wizarding world, at least in notes, just to be able to track the massive and epic culture shock that will be giving every muggleborn or raised kid cardiac arrest.

Hogwarts alone, just as an example, is something that would be pretty weird to the victorian idea of education. It's a big, prestigious school, supposedly the best in the world, and yet we hear nothing about tuition, and even dirt poor families like the weasleys can send every single child there. So it's a public, free education? And it's not connected to the church? That's a pretty novel idea for the time period as well.

IIRC, dentistry wasn't a particularly high status occupation, so Hermione might be lower class than one would expect, and I'd honestly be surprised if both her parents were practicing, especially if they were the type to raise her as a 'guardian of morality'. She'd potentially be counter-cultural, allowing her to remain closer to the canon character, or potentially not.
 

kingdark

Well-Known Member
#5
That's what this forum is for isn't it? To help flush out idea's :p
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#6
Why would a school of heathens be connected to the church? As it is a place to learn witchcraft the church would not approve of Hogwarts.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#7
Zeebee brings a up a good point but there would be more to it.

You might very well have some muggleborns crack as their worldviews are thrown to the wayside, if they are devoutly religious that's going to really ruin their day and I have to ask are we talking about early or late Victorian era, cause the later era might be easier to write seeing as it was just starting to really get an industrial boom.

On the note about the skirts being to short, note that also during that time the dressed showed a lot of bust, corsets were the thing. It may have been an age of "sexual restraint" but the birth-rates say otherwise seeing as they more than doubled previous era's.

Mustaches were in as well, idiots.

Honestly, the "social norm" Harry would have of being lower-middle class and an unwanted child as well would have him acting and seeking friendship from those of lower class than himself. You'd find Harry getting into fights to earn a little money if he were older. As it stands being a child and all your more likely to see Harry being put to work as a chimney sweep (that was bad for lungs let me tell you) work in a cotton factory (messy deaths there), or my personal favorite -working in a coal mine. The last one would fuck up your lungs too AND if you had really bad luck you'd get caught up in a tunnel collapse.

Dudley -and this might surprise some people- wouldn't be fat, Middle class back then wasn't much better off than lower class, better living conditions maybe, but the amount of food was almost the same. He's probably also be under an apprenticeship of some sort set up by Vernon.

Hermione would already be learning to be a dentist, its a good solid profession that takes years too learn and you could bet your ass her parents would be trying to make sure she was more than ready for it when she was old enough to help, if she wasn't already considering how smart she is.

Draco would be the same, no doubt about it but I'm unsure as to how you all figure that Harry and Hermione would be so horrified at his attitude, of sure he'd be a rich snob but its not like you couldn't find others like him in muggle society. plus and I think this will hurt some people's sensibilities, Draco by comparison to modern times wouldn't exactly be in the wrong about being better by blood. By his thinking even Weasley would be of higher standing and breed simply by being a wizard - after all wizards don't live in filth, they live longer, and have bloody MAGIC. Say what you want but by comparison to most Victorian era muggles Draco has the right of it.

If its only an argument about manners, ya Draco is in the wrong, but if its about blood I don't see him as being completely wrong in this case.
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#8
zeebee1 said:
Why would a school of heathens be connected to the church? As it is a place to learn witchcraft the church would not approve of Hogwarts.
No, I'm saying that in Victorian England, education was often a church affair. Not always directly, but to some extent there was a connection.

My entire point is that Hogwarts would be odd because it would be an educational institution that was free, mixed the classes without apparent care or notice, had no connection to the church, and taught magic.

I'm honestly not certain which of those would be the most likely to make a victorian muggle crack.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#9
It would either be the mingling of the classes or teaching witchcraft itself.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#10
zeebee1 said:
It would either be the mingling of the classes or teaching witchcraft itself.
I'm leaning towards the witchcraft & wizardry myself.
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#11
Eh, the victorians were pretty hilariously fascinated with the occult.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#12
Ina_meishou said:
Eh, the victorians were pretty hilariously fascinated with the occult.
you'll probably be surprised to learn then that calling up long lost loved ones and such in a sÚance is judeo-christian in origin, so no I still don't see how actual honest to gods "Witchcraft" would be looked at any differently than it normally was. After all its STILL on the books that if you are caught practicing ACTUAL witchcraft on someone in England they'll burn ya -look it up.
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#13
Not surprised no, I'm quite aware of how intricately christianity was tied up into society.

I'm just also aware of how eager people were to see, learn about, or believe in all sorts of mysticism and esoteric 'arts from the east' or from the ancient past etc.
 

nintendokid

Well-Known Member
#14
The Eromancer said:
Ina_meishou said:
Eh, the victorians were pretty hilariously fascinated with the occult.
you'll probably be surprised to learn then that calling up long lost loved ones and such in a sÚance is judeo-christian in origin, so no I still don't see how actual honest to gods "Witchcraft" would be looked at any differently than it normally was. After all its STILL on the books that if you are caught practicing ACTUAL witchcraft on someone in England they'll burn ya -look it up.
It doesn't have origins in Judeo-Christian mythos. The idea of calling back and talking to dead people predates Christianity by a huge margin.

And frankly, the idea that the Church is against "magic" is ludicrous. It's against anything the supercedes or opposes the Christian god, but belief in magic has always been a part of Christianity and Judaism; there's entire books on sorcery, mysticism, summoning, etc in the Jewish faith. Things like Golems and summoning Angels to do their bidding was a regular part of Judaism, which, if you'll recall was Jesus's religion. The only real difference between Judaism and Christianity is whether you regard Jesus himself as the son of God or not.

And you have guys like Moses who perform regular feats of magic and who are regarded as saints or essentially as minor deities, like Mary, the mother of Jesus.

The reason the church is against "Witchcraft" is because of its pagan origins. If you explained magic as being of God's creation, then no one would even bat an eye in Victorian or pre-Victorian society. Granted, this was perverted into a fear of all supernatural things later on, but a lot of that has to do with the Roman Church essentially ignoring its own faith in a bid for political power, not wanting people with the ability to create "miracles" being outside of its sphere of influence.

They probably would have a problem with Dumbledore being gay though, lol.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#15
Jomasten said:
Not enough Fleur in that idea.

Sneak in Fleur making out/snogging with Tonks in there somewhere, and I will prbably provide a more viable, to my standards, input. :p
Open lesbianism, and/or bisexuality, would indeed be pretty damn shocking to their Victorian sensibilities - as well as confusing for those to unimaginative to comprehend sex beyond 'insert Tab P into Slot V; repeat' (it's claimed that Queen Victorian did not believe that lesbians existed, for exactly that reason, though I'm not sure she ever said/wrote anything like that).

Jomasten said:
Semi-seriously.

The dynamics are going to be interesting. Have seen some Victorian dramas on PBS, so at least have a vague idea on how social interactions are going to work out. Will Harry still be the Victorian equivalent of an unwanted child, or aill he the unwanted child that the Dursleys indulge to the most minimal extent?
I'd say indulge in to the minimal extent. The Dursleys want to be seen as better than they are, as well as being aggressively 'normal', and being 'enlightened' was a big thing to the Victorians. Sending their nephew to the mines, or whatever, is not enlightened. They want him to make them look good, and thus expect him, as well as Dudley, to do well in school.
 

nintendokid

Well-Known Member
#16
Open lesbianism, and/or bisexuality, would indeed be pretty damn shocking to their Victorian sensibilities - as well as confusing for those to unimaginative to comprehend sex beyond 'insert Tab P into Slot V; repeat' (it's claimed that Queen Victorian did not believe that lesbians existed, for exactly that reason, though I'm not sure she ever said/wrote anything like that).
That's not entirely true. There was quite a bit of open homosexual and lesbian action going on until nearly the end of the Victorian era where they started enacting laws against it. A lot of it had to do with rebelling against industrialism and an ever tightening grip on freedom as well as trying to identify with great cultures of the past who embraced homosexuality like the Greeks. Hell, the Victorians produced Oscar Wilde.

Victorians were a lot more open sexually and adventurous than people give them credit it for, it's just that the people in power were trying to stamp down on it. Also, they didn't view sexuality like we do, exactly. Women were known to have sex with other women they were close to until they met a man and it wasn't generally conceived of as being sex or lesbianism, just something girls do to pass time with their best friends.

Btw, I'm not saying your wrong exactly. I'm sure people would be shocked at two chicks playing tonsil hockey in broad daylight, but that'd be true of today too, and we're supposedly more sexually accepting than the past eras.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#17
nintendokid said:
Victorians were a lot more open sexually and adventurous than people give them credit it for, it's just that the people in power were trying to stamp down on it. Also, they didn't view sexuality like we do, exactly. Women were known to have sex with other women they were close to until they met a man and it wasn't generally conceived of as being sex or lesbianism, just something girls do to pass time with their best friends.
OK, that's interesting, and it makes some harem fics less wildly implausible (though frequently still OOC).
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#18
zeebee1 said:
Why would a school of heathens be connected to the church? As it is a place to learn witchcraft the church would not approve of Hogwarts.
A witch is defined by the church as someone who gains magical powers by cutting a deal with Satan.

The only witch in the series that fits the actual definition of the term would be Voldemort, due to the ambiguous "rituals" he underwent, which could quite easily have been infernal in origin and execution.

ITT, people who don't know about the Catholic Church or Christianity in general decide what it would and would not do.

And Eromancer is a part of it.

Color me surprised.

At least Narnia hasn't been brought up yet.
 

Chuckg

Well-Known Member
#21
Seriously, if <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>these people</a> could walk around Victorian England without a single fuck being given, then I really don't see where Potterverse wizards are going to have to worry about lynch mobs.

Sure, you wouldn't want to walk into church and talk about it with the bishop, but this isn't medieval Spain for fuck's sake. Victorian society considered a fascination with occultism to be an entirely tolerable social eccentricity.
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#22
Chuckg said:
Seriously, if <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>these people</a> could walk around Victorian England without a single fuck being given, then I really don't see where Potterverse wizards are going to have to worry about lynch mobs.

Sure, you wouldn't want to walk into church and talk about it with the bishop, but this isn't medieval Spain for fuck's sake. Victorian society considered a fascination with occultism to be an entirely tolerable social eccentricity.
indeed
 

Flamewolf

Well-Known Member
#23
it may not be spain, but don't get too relaxed. no one expects the spanish inquisition.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#24
Lord Raine said:
zeebee1 said:
Why would a school of heathens be connected to the church? As it is a place to learn witchcraft the church would not approve of Hogwarts.
A witch is defined by the church as someone who gains magical powers by cutting a deal with Satan.

The only witch in the series that fits the actual definition of the term would be Voldemort, due to the ambiguous "rituals" he underwent, which could quite easily have been infernal in origin and execution.

ITT, people who don't know about the Catholic Church or Christianity in general decide what it would and would not do.

And Eromancer is a part of it.

Color me surprised.

At least Narnia hasn't been brought up yet.
You'll probably LOVE to know I was raised Catholic, Irish Catholic sure but Catholic all the same.

Besides which you obviously spend way too much time looking over hordes of admittedly interesting but useless facts. I had a general knowledge of the subject which is still more than most of the world's population though clearly no where near your near infinite repository of knowledge also known as wiki-err excuse me I meant your brain.

I thought it was a general rule to leave potshots out from other threads but clearly I've done something to upset your senses.

Oh and that wasn't even my quite you fool!

Post Script- if your referring to the law I stated it IS still on the books, that's hardly a church thing its the government.

PPS- now mind you I learned that from my high school history teacher but unless I'm years out of date I'm still 99% sure its still on the books, after all we have a law down here that a man can't manhandle another man's cowboy hat or get arrested for aggravated assault. 'Cause obviously he's trying to start shit.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#25
You'll probably LOVE to know I was raised Catholic, Irish Catholic sure but Catholic all the same.
Didn't pay much attention then, did you?

Leave the lore talk to the people who actually know the lore. And go be butthurt somewhere else. Nobody gives a shit.
 
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