Have we Flanderized Batman?

[Ordo]

Over the years we have turned Batman into the poster child for the Badass Normal. In and of itself thereÆs nothing wrong with that, yet I begin to wonder if weÆve gone to far. I mean, as it currently stands I would argue that BatmanÆs power is the ability to warp reality/probability so that things always work out in his favor. I appreciate that he needs to be able to roll with the likes of Superman & Wonder Woman but I fear we short changed his character in the process. I also worry that we've cheapened his victories by making it seem as if he can not fail. I fear that weÆve Flanderized Batman to be nothing more than a near ruthless crime fighter, a vigilante whose sole purpose is to met out justice to the unjust.

There is more to Batman, to Bruce Wayne, than an remoursless avenger.

Take a look at these two moments from Batman TAS: Heart of Ice, Baby Doll. In both scenarios Batman is shown to have a heart. I mean he actually sounds sad when he gives his condolences to Fries concerning his wife, and the way he pats DahlÆs head at the end is very kind. This is not something we see too often these days.

To be fair, years of crime fighting may have ground down this aspect of BatmanÆs character. However I honestly feel that some writers (CoughFrankMillerCough) have forgotten that underneath that stern exterior and cowl is a good man who hates to see people suffer.

Am I wrong?

 

[A Curious Stranger]

Yes. Miller's Batman is an exception that everyone agrees as being retarded. All-Star Batman and Robin is mostly read just so people have something to laugh at.

The recent adaptations of Batman show his heart clearly. First you have the campy Batman: Brave and the Bold which puts Batman in mostly humorous situations and is much softer than other depictions. The Dark Knight has Batman willingly take the fall for Harvey Dent's death because he knows that if word gets out that Dent became a murderer, Gotham would implode on itself.

In recent comics, Bruce Wayne is 'dead' with Dick taking on the mantle. I haven't been able to read the new ones, but apparently he's been succeeding in calming Damian down a bit and giving him some actual morals.

Even in the comics, you can't ignore Bruce's pain at seeing Tim suffer when his dad died at the end of Identity Crisis. In the same story, Batman is shown to have struggled against the entire Justice League when he realizes how they have gone too far in stopping a rapist and only stopping when they erase his memories of them lobotomizing Dr. Light. Then there is Hush where Bruce struggled with himself when he found out what his former friend was doing before finally deciding to stop him to save people.

So no, I don't believe that Batman has been flanderized that badly. It's just that people focus more on action and emphasize the negatives.

 

[SoulGriever13]

It's more that this was the one aspect prevalent in all versions, to one extent or another, and because Batman suffers, as most comicbooks, from uneven writing and changing writer/artist syndrome, it's the aspect that most commonly carries over and is easiest to write and/or parody. Though that's mostly my take on it, and I'm the guy who tossed No Man's Land away in disgust after a few issues because it took an interesting situation and played far too fast and loose with it (and changed art too much).

Actually, now that I think of it, the Punisher's had this done to him too, over the years. One reason I liked the MAX imprint of it was that at least that was fairly consistent in the way it depicted Frank.

-Griever

 

[Prince Charon]

Another good 'Batman with a heart' scene, also from the cartoon, is Ace's death, which is quite poignant (if you're at all sensitive, have tissues nearby). It also leads to an interesting conclusion about the name Bruce chose for his dog in Batman Beyond (the in-story reason for the name, that is; IRL, it was the name of the Silver Age character Ace the Bathound).

I could easily see comicbook-Batman doing the same thing, and would not be surprised if I learned that it was based on a scene from the comics.

 

[Ordo]

IÆll admit, IÆd forgotten about Batman Brave and Bold, and IÆll grant that the recent films have done a good job of showing the BatÆs heart. I guess IÆve just run into so many depictions and repetitions of æIÆm the god**** BatmanÆ in various fan discussions that IÆd begun to fear our caped crusader had lost one of his essential elements.

I do think that one of the most frustrating things about comics is the uneven writing and changing writer/artist syndrome.

Examples include:

Turning my beloved Batgirl III (Cassandra Cain) from a heroic girl struggling to rise above her past into a manipulative Dragon lady bent on turning Tim Drake into her right hand.

Spider-manÆs æOne More DayÆ Storyline

Chuck Austen deciding that Havok needed to leave Polaris at the alter.

What was done to Maxwell Lord

What was done Dr. Leslie Thompkins (This one caused Nerd Rage I will admit)

Even books are not safe. In the recent Legacy of the Force Series, Karen Travis did everything she could to make the Jedi Order look like a bunch of mystic idiots and her beloved Mandalorians like the best things that ever happened to the galaxy. This is another reason to support æThe Clone WarsÆ series, it sent KT packing. That alone justifies the entire second season in my book.

Actually all three authors worked hard to drag that storyline out, which became painfully obvious real quick. Honestly the only reason Mara Jade, Luke Skywalker or any of the other heroes didnÆt finish the villain of the series off was due to author intervention (AKA Main Villain Shields).

I wonÆt even talk about the damage done to Tahiri Veila beyond the fact that the last book had her, a 30 year old woman, trying to seduce Ben Skywalker, a 14 year old boyà.

But yeah itÆs those kinds of derailment/wallbangers that make it hard for me to read comics and novels at times.

 

[Meinos Kaen]

The point is that most writers, when they find something that works, keep on squeezing it for all it's got till it crushes. Batman defeating far more powerful people than him by pure brains is always awesome, and the Joker always sells.

Also, they seem to have turned Batman both into 'the remorseful avenger' and a worse cowboy than Superman. The antithetis of each other. I say this regarding the Joker, of course. I'm one of the people who agrees with Jason Todd, here.

We're talking about a guy who has filled more graveyards than Darkside, but no matter what, he always gets put into a nuts-house which he uses as a vacation home. HE GOT OUT OF ARKHAM I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES! And each time, he kills more, and more, and more... And yet, Batman doesn't kill. No, seriously. They turned him into something awful, because he does everything to get justice, but not what is necessary.

Jason may have some problems with his head, but regarding the Joker, he was right spot on.

 

[Prince Charon]

Its not Batman's job to kill him, its the state government's job. If the people of the state Gotham is in want the Joker dead (which they bloody well should), they should demand their state senators pass a law allowing sufficiently dangerous, unconfinable psychos to be executed. They shouldn't ask a vigilante to be judge, jury, and executioner.

 

[The Ero-Sennin]

The point is that most writers, when they find something that works, keep on squeezing it for all it's got till it crushes. Batman defeating far more powerful people than him by pure brains is always awesome, and the Joker always sells.

Also, they seem to have turned Batman both into 'the remorseful avenger' and a worse cowboy than Superman. The antithetis of each other. I say this regarding the Joker, of course. I'm one of the people who agrees with Jason Todd, here.

We're talking about a guy who has filled more graveyards than Darkside, but no matter what, he always gets put into a nuts-house which he uses as a vacation home. HE GOT OUT OF ARKHAM I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES! And each time, he kills more, and more, and more... And yet, Batman doesn't kill. No, seriously. They turned him into something awful, because he does everything to get justice, but not what is necessary.

Jason may have some problems with his head, but regarding the Joker, he was right spot on.

I think it was mentioned that if Batman could kill the Joker, and he could do it his own way without having to deal with repercussions, he would do it and he'd enjoy every second of it. As it's been said, he's not judge, jury, or executioner. He stops the criminals and then leaves that to the people who are supposed to fulfill those roles.

 

[Lord Raine]

I begin to wonder if weÆve gone to far

The moment people begin to argue that Bruce Wayne would actually stand a decent chance at defeating someone like Green Lantern or Superman is the moment you know that it has gone way, way, WAAAAY too far.

I don't even know what this thread is on about. The answer is an absurdly resounding yes, and it's been a yes for years. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but is it really news to you that Batman has been wanked to levels that are totally beyond believability?

To be honest, just putting him in the Justice League team is wankery in and of itself. He can't help any of the original League in a fight. They're all metahuman at least, and he's some random guy with ninja training in a bat costume. He should have been the group's Home Command, with liberal amounts of spying, hacking, and infiltration on the side. He's suited to be their eyes in the sky, not someone who actually goes out with them and beats the crap out of the cyborg aliens with his bare hands. Because, you know. He kinda can't beat the crap out of them with his bare hands, what with them being all fleshy, mortal, and normal.

 

[Aarik]

In the Superman and Green Lantern cases, they kinda have 'GLOWING DIAMOND WEAKPOINTS' that you can hit for 'MASSIVE DAMAGE', they are Kryptonite/Magic and Yellow respectively.

Batman even has some Magic Kryptonite in the Batcave, He has one of everykind of Kryptonite in there.

He got it during an arc where Superman decided that Kryptonite showing up EVERYWHERE pissed him off, so he decided to get rid of all of it by throwing that shit into the Sun.

Near the end he get's hit with Magic Kryptonite, it makes him high, specifically Marijuana high.

Permanently, until the counter spell Kryptonite is retrieved.

 

[Lord Raine]

Everyone pulls the Krytonite argument. Everyone? seems to forget that Superman can both fly and attack from miles away with laser eyes.

If Superman was actually fighting for real and not being pussified, what in the hell makes you think he would lose? Bruce would never get near him to use the Krytonite.


And the Yellow Weakness is only a weakness for Lanterns that are retarded. So I can't pick you up and throw you around with my power ring. OH NOES, WHATEVA AM AH GONNA DUU!?!?!

Maybe pick up something big and heavy and smash your ass with it. Lanterns can always pull Rocks Fall Everyone Dies Bitch. They just don't, because the writers are forced to nerf their own characters. If they didn't, then the Flash would do everyone's goddamn job for them in two seconds flat.

 

[Lord Raa]

Random link

 

[Aarik]

Yellow Spectrum Laser.

Headshot.

There was also some mention of releasing some kind of Atmospheric Kryptonite Powder that would make the entire planet earth poisonous to Kryptonians, lose the fight, win the war.

It actually happened once, though Toyman fixed it.

 

[zerohour]

Everyone pulls the Krytonite argument. Everyone? seems to forget that Superman can both fly and attack from miles away with laser eyes.

If Superman was actually fighting for real and not being pussified, what in the hell makes you think he would lose? Bruce would never get near him to use the Krytonite.

I'm not trying to start a huge argument about this, but does Superman ever use his various powers unless the situation specifically calls for them? As far as I know*, his standard response is to go in and smash things.

You never see him use his laser eyes or superspeed unless it's necessary, even when that would make things much easier.


*Apologies if my assumptions are wrong. I'm not too into comic books, so my experience is pretty much limited to TV and Movies, and even then, it's not too extensive.

 

[The Ero-Sennin]

Everyone pulls the Krytonite argument. Everyone? seems to forget that Superman can both fly and attack from miles away with laser eyes.

If Superman was actually fighting for real and not being pussified, what in the hell makes you think he would lose? Bruce would never get near him to use the Krytonite.

I'm not trying to start a huge argument about this, but does Superman ever use his various powers unless the situation specifically calls for them? As far as I know*, his standard response is to go in and smash things.

You never see him use his laser eyes or superspeed unless it's necessary, even when that would make things much easier.


*Apologies if my assumptions are wrong. I'm not too into comic books, so my experience is pretty much limited to TV and Movies, and even then, it's not too extensive.

He willingly holds himself back unless it's required, yeah. That said:

Kenpachi vs. Superman would be a hell of a fight for everyone involved.

 

[Ordo]

I think the following picture does a good job of explaining Lord Raine's problem with Batman's status in the DC universe.

 

[Aarik]

Haha, owned Joker.

 

[Capito Celcior]

Yeah, something like that...

Though indeed, the writers would have Batman triumph anyway...after all, as long as Batman is even slightly in the right he will win. And if it isn't an outright obvious victory, then the other parties will realise later on that he actually did won, or that he changed them so that they wouldn't be a threat anymore (I'm thinking the Top Cow/DC crossover with The Darkness/Batman. Actually, though I don't have a lot of comics, it is said that that one is one of the few where a crossover actually had a major impact on one of the characters. In this case The Darkness changed his ways.)

But I do acknowledge the difrence in power. It's why I keep thinking tht Batman should b his own universe. No Meta-humans of the world-destroying scale. Batman's enemies are far more clever, twisted ad psychotic. It's a far more human realm, which makes it that much scarier. It's easier to believe in a super-computer and suped-up muscle-car than laser eyes and frost breath. Martial arts versus ten-ton muscles. Detective skills versus super-hearing/x-ray vision. Seriously, Superman has been given every skill to make sure thinking isn't necesairy.

You don't know who did it? Don't trace for fingerprints, look for motive, commonality with other stolen objects or who recently escaped. Just fly up high, listen in on conversations, x-ray footprints and just follow them through the sky.

 

[Ray]

Batman should be in his own universe.

This. The same, I think, ought to apply for comparatively low-powered heroes like The Punisher or Spider-Man.

But of course crossovers are massive cash-cows, so Marvel and DC will never let such a thing happen.

 

[Ordo]

Punisher yes, but I'd argue to keep Spider-man in the main Marvel line because he is there flagship character and he has just enough brains, and brawn to hang with the big boys.

Now Cosmic level heroes/villains (Darkseid, Green Lanterns, Nova, Silver Surfer, Ego, Orion the Wardog, Granny Goodness, Sinestro, etc) They should be kept seperate from the 'mid-range heroes'

I mean as much as I love Wolverine, Batman and Spider-man none of them are going to have a happy ending if they try to take on someone like Darkseid.

Edit: Allow me to restate

None of them SHOULD have a happy ending if they try to take on someone like Darkseid without an MASSIVE ace in the hole.

 

[Aarik]

I read a comic story where Batman DEFEATED Darkseid.

Or, at least, got Darkseid into a position where he had to cave to Batman's demand or die, and take Apocalypse with him, and the kicker, Darkseid COULDN'T kill him, because if he did, no one would be able to STOP it from happening, because only Batman knew the code's.

That was hilarious, incidentally. The look on his FACE...

 

[Meinos Kaen]

I read a comic story where Batman DEFEATED Darkseid.

Or, at least, got Darkseid into a position where he had to cave to Batman's demand or die, and take Apocalypse with him, and the kicker, Darkseid COULDN'T kill him, because if he did, no one would be able to STOP it from happening, because only Batman knew the code's.

That was hilarious, incidentally. The look on his FACE...

Link/Issue, or it didn't happen. lol

 

[Aarik]

http://www.htmlcomics.com/Book/html.asp?Se...Alpha=S&Lookup=

If you want to see Darkseid get owned by Superman (again), read the one after that.

 

[Ordo]

Honestly it's just nice to see the writers remember that Superman can plan ahead. Clark does have a lot of talents that get overlooked due to his powers.

 

[Aarik]

I should also find the 'Superman get's high' to, just because it's hilarious.

He see's the rest of the league through chibi vision, empties the fridge, and get's ticked off at the TV and melt's it with heat vision, including the game system he was playing on it.

Later Mxysptlk, I know I spelled that wrong, make's the character's from a chibi version of the DCU appear in the canon one, they look just like the MK induced halucination's superman saw, Batman's reaction to his Chibi self is hilarious, ditto his Chibi self's reaction to him.