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[goldenarms]

Probably? I think (with all my voluble knowledge of Japanese Culture) that it's the demure young lady thing. Plus, she's much closer to the Japanese ideal of physical beauty than any of the other female characters... I think? The dark hair + porcelain-like skin y'know. Same reason the Sauce is more popular over there, he plays into a lot of cultural stuff we occidentals just don't get, or at least don't get on as visceral a level.

There is that...

However, I think there's something else at play in regards to the characters. Possibly the reason why Sakura never took off is because of her strong attachment to Sasuke and her dickish behavior towards Naruto turned many off to her right away. Totally different from a tsundere, since she doesn't give Naruto the d(ere), and Sasuke mostly doesn't feel her t(sun).*

*Yes, there's an awkwardly placed joke about Sakura giving Sasuke the D, while Naruto is constantly feeling her T. Moving along...

Hinata, on the other hand, strongly supported Naruto to point that she tries to help him out in the Chunin Exams, despite the cutthroat nature of the tests (as well as possibly risking her own team's DQ). Also, remember when Naruto swore on Hinata's very blood to beat Neji's ass six ways from Sunday? When I first read that, I was like, "Damn, that's some romantic shit right there!" Because holy shit, you would have to really like someone to be that damn hardcore, and swear upon their life essence to do something. I know if it was me, I'd seriously have to have something towards that girl to be like that, man. I don't go around swearing on random girl's blood for no reason.

And, let's face it, her desire to be stronger, get better, even if she's a failure, too, has all that adorable vibes on it. Makes you want to protect her, y'know?

 

[Knyght]

So I think the editors made a mistake in not letting Naruto go on those other missions. Two more arcs with Naruto travelling through the Land of Fire and beyond while making enemies and alliances with other teams would have been great. More worldbuilding, more character development and bonding within the team, more visible experience as a ninja, and more development for the skills for the exam that would decide their promotion.

But knowing that they were the ones responsible for the Chuunin Exams, the Sand/Sound Invasion and Orochimaru is enough to make me forgive. Naruto wouldn't have been nearly as interesting without those. And Shikamaru winning would probably annoy me.

I'm not so sure I could forgive them for Sakura though. I'm fairly certain that they only reason she exists is because the editors told Kishimoto to create a love triangle. I dislike love triangles on principle and it feels like creating Sakura only made things harder for Kishimoto, not that he ever did a particularly good job with her (barring Sakura/Chiyo vs Sasori) so it's really no surprise she was consistently unpopular. It's a shame since she even had potental back in Part 1 but she was always gonna lag behind in likeability.

I rather like the idea of Team Gai being from another village. Imagine if they had been the equivalent of Team Dosu so our protagonists would have major antagonists from both Sand and Sound. It would have made the Rookie Nine a bit more inclusive (so it's not the Rookie Nine + Team Gai aka Konoha Twelve) and they probably could have gotten more focus that way. Not that I particuarly like most of the Rookie Nine more than Lee or Neji.

It's freaking remarkable how many things Kishimoto just threw into the opening arc without any real plans for them. At least Itachi was confirmed to secretly be a good guy from the first time he appeared though in some way that makes his actions all the more fucked up.

And in the end, I still feel sorry for Neji.

Some clarifications (since there was some debate over on NF which Utapurinsesu is responding to):

Spoiler

Starting off with Kishimoto feelings towards... I checked this out again and I admit I did misinterpret this statement. Here's the conversation:
Kishimoto says he wrote Sakura more realistically with her 'inner feelings' thinking she would be popular with the girls, but was surprised that there was a lot of hatred towards her. Kobayashi is surprised and says "Hate?! There was a lot of hate towards Sakura?", to which Kishimoto responds "Yes. Young kids said they hated her. So I tried many things [to make her popular], but the feeling of *bitterness [people had] towards her just got worse ".

*At 23.23 he says 恨み恨みに行く感じで ('feel more resentment') Originally I thought that Kishimoto meant he regretted her character in the sense that he was disappointed she wasn't popular despite his efforts. He doesn't say he hates or hated her himself, and in fact says he designed her to be cute, but he just seems frustrated she never made it. Kobayashi also apologizes after this for 'bringing up painful memories'. However after looking back at the video, he is talking about the ill-will others had towards her, not his own disappointment.

Kishimoto just says that they decided a while ago to make her the heroine. Kobayashi then interjects with 'at the end?' and Kishimoto agrees and says that in order to to do this and bring her and Naruto together he decided to kill Neji off.

About the Hokage Dog issue, he clearly says its face would have been in place of the 4th Hokage, not 3rd. I can't explain why in the picture that somebody posted it's the 3rd, but maybe in the planning stages they changed their mind back and forth. I don't know. He just says '4th' (yondaime) in the video at 20.45 and again at 20.51 mins. If anyone wants to get a second opinion, its there for another translator to check.

In this part of the interview he is explaining that he knew that he'd have to show Naruto's dad at some point, but at the time they hadn't decided that Naruto's dad was 4th Hokage. Kishimoto's plan at the time was for the 4th to be a ninken/ dog, but he was told by his editor to make the 4th Naruto's dad instead (at 21.24 he says "Let's make it [the 4th] the main characters dad"　「主人公の親父にしようということで決めてた」)

 

[Daneel Rush]

Now it's up to some brilliant fanfiction writer to bring Dogkage to life.

 

[Knyght]

Top Dog - To honour his fallen partner, Akamaru took Kiba's dream as his own and became the Hokage of Konoha.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Makes you want to protect her, y'know?

Um, no? Looking back, I really wish Neji had finished her off during the exam, or in the Forest of Death.

Also, Naruto barely even knew her name when he did that, and swearing on blood seemed to be his shtick at that point. His issue with Neji, more than beating the ever loving crap out of Hinata in such a humiliating way, was the things he said. They personally offended Naruto's belief system, Hinata was just a convenient scapegoat.

He'd more or less forgotten about her by the time he's fighting him.

 

[jakkuzarippa]

Makes you want to protect her, y'know?

Um, no? Looking back, I really wish Neji had finished her off during the exam, or in the Forest of Death.

Also, Naruto barely even knew her name when he did that, and swearing on blood seemed to be his shtick at that point. His issue with Neji, more than beating the ever loving crap out of Hinata in such a humiliating way, was the things he said. They personally offended Naruto's belief system, Hinata was just a convenient scapegoat.

He'd more or less forgotten about her by the time he's fighting him.

Shocking.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Makes you want to protect her, y'know?

Um, no? Looking back, I really wish Neji had finished her off during the exam, or in the Forest of Death.

Also, Naruto barely even knew her name when he did that, and swearing on blood seemed to be his shtick at that point. His issue with Neji, more than beating the ever loving crap out of Hinata in such a humiliating way, was the things he said. They personally offended Naruto's belief system, Hinata was just a convenient scapegoat.

He'd more or less forgotten about her by the time he's fighting him.

Shocking.

I'm full of surprises.

That said, I do have to wonder... In regards to Itachi, if that idiot had planned for him to be a good guy from the beginning, why have him mind rape Sasuke? I mean, it seemed quite a bit like overkill, and given the consequences, it seems needlessly risky for Itachi's plan.

 

[goldenarms]

Makes you want to protect her, y'know?

Um, no?

Well, I know you wouldn't. I was addressing the matter from a Japanese standpoint outside of the classic Yamato Nadeshiko stereotype.

He'd more or less forgotten about her by the time he's fighting him.

No, he was actively wondering if she was watching him trounce Neji after he won his round, not to mention they had just talked prior to the fight, where she surprisingly cheered him up after he admitted his bluster was just a facade.

That said, I do have to wonder... In regards to Itachi, if that idiot had planned for him to be a good guy from the beginning, why have him mind rape Sasuke? I mean, it seemed quite a bit like overkill, and given the consequences, it seems needlessly risky for Itachi's plan.

Itachi had to make himself look like a total monster and break Sasuke's brotherly connections to him in order to make him pursue him with a the vengeance to kill him. Note how Sasuke tries doing the exact same thing to Naruto and Sakura, only here, Naruto already had meta-inside scoop that Sasuke was still his friend, and Sakura has ungodly amounts of stubbornness and patience that was starting to show signs of fatigue by the time Naruto finally beat sense into his thick head.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Makes you want to protect her, y'know?

Um, no?

Well, I know you wouldn't. I was addressing the matter from a Japanese standpoint outside of the classic Yamato Nadeshiko stereotype.

Still don't get it. I mean, popular archetype or not, that shouldn't have been enough to generate popularity. SHe next to no screen time for 98% of the manga, so there was very little of her actual character, or personality fleshed out...

Oh, actually I do think I get it now. It's basically how the western fandom treat TenTen right? Because of how shallow, and flat her character is, they can basically impose whatever sort of personality and image they want on to her.

That said, I do have to wonder... In regards to Itachi, if that idiot had planned for him to be a good guy from the beginning, why have him mind rape Sasuke? I mean, it seemed quite a bit like overkill, and given the consequences, it seems needlessly risky for Itachi's plan.

Itachi had to make himself look like a total monster and break Sasuke's brotherly connections to him in order to make him pursue him with a the vengeance to kill him. Note how Sasuke tries doing the exact same thing to Naruto and Sakura, only here, Naruto already had meta-inside scoop that Sasuke was still his friend, and Sakura has ungodly amounts of stubbornness and patience that was starting to show signs of fatigue by the time Naruto finally beat sense into his thick head.

But even still, there had to be less risky ways for him to pull that off. For someone who's apparently planned a bunch of shit out, he never considered he'd taken things too far?

 

[goldenarms]

That said, I do have to wonder... In regards to Itachi, if that idiot had planned for him to be a good guy from the beginning, why have him mind rape Sasuke? I mean, it seemed quite a bit like overkill, and given the consequences, it seems needlessly risky for Itachi's plan.

Itachi had to make himself look like a total monster and break Sasuke's brotherly connections to him in order to make him pursue him with a the vengeance to kill him. Note how Sasuke tries doing the exact same thing to Naruto and Sakura, only here, Naruto already had meta-inside scoop that Sasuke was still his friend, and Sakura has ungodly amounts of stubbornness and patience that was starting to show signs of fatigue by the time Naruto finally beat sense into his thick head.

But even still, there had to be less risky ways for him to pull that off. For someone who's apparently planned a bunch of shit out, he never considered he'd taken things too far?

To be fair, Itachi was still like in puberty when he came up with the plan, so the brilliance of it is questionable. Of course, given the amount of hero worship Sasuke had for him, it might have been warranted.

 

[MastaofBitches]

That said, I do have to wonder... In regards to Itachi, if that idiot had planned for him to be a good guy from the beginning, why have him mind rape Sasuke? I mean, it seemed quite a bit like overkill, and given the consequences, it seems needlessly risky for Itachi's plan.

Itachi had to make himself look like a total monster and break Sasuke's brotherly connections to him in order to make him pursue him with a the vengeance to kill him. Note how Sasuke tries doing the exact same thing to Naruto and Sakura, only here, Naruto already had meta-inside scoop that Sasuke was still his friend, and Sakura has ungodly amounts of stubbornness and patience that was starting to show signs of fatigue by the time Naruto finally beat sense into his thick head.

But even still, there had to be less risky ways for him to pull that off. For someone who's apparently planned a bunch of shit out, he never considered he'd taken things too far?

To be fair, Itachi was still like in puberty when he came up with the plan, so the brilliance of it is questionable. Of course, given the amount of hero worship Sasuke had for him, it might have been warranted.

That's true enough I suppose. Possibly telling him to live in hate was a bad idea though, given where that road lead.

 

[goldenarms]

That said, I do have to wonder... In regards to Itachi, if that idiot had planned for him to be a good guy from the beginning, why have him mind rape Sasuke? I mean, it seemed quite a bit like overkill, and given the consequences, it seems needlessly risky for Itachi's plan.

Itachi had to make himself look like a total monster and break Sasuke's brotherly connections to him in order to make him pursue him with a the vengeance to kill him. Note how Sasuke tries doing the exact same thing to Naruto and Sakura, only here, Naruto already had meta-inside scoop that Sasuke was still his friend, and Sakura has ungodly amounts of stubbornness and patience that was starting to show signs of fatigue by the time Naruto finally beat sense into his thick head.

But even still, there had to be less risky ways for him to pull that off. For someone who's apparently planned a bunch of shit out, he never considered he'd taken things too far?

To be fair, Itachi was still like in puberty when he came up with the plan, so the brilliance of it is questionable. Of course, given the amount of hero worship Sasuke had for him, it might have been warranted.

That's true enough I suppose. Possibly telling him to live in hate was a bad idea though, given where that road lead.

Usually is, usually is...

Now that I think about it, that part was pretty much off-the-cuff, since after Tsukiyomi, Itachi didn't expect Sasuke to come after him.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Itachi had to make himself look like a total monster and break Sasuke's brotherly connections to him in order to make him pursue him with a the vengeance to kill him. Note how Sasuke tries doing the exact same thing to Naruto and Sakura, only here, Naruto already had meta-inside scoop that Sasuke was still his friend, and Sakura has ungodly amounts of stubbornness and patience that was starting to show signs of fatigue by the time Naruto finally beat sense into his thick head.

But even still, there had to be less risky ways for him to pull that off. For someone who's apparently planned a bunch of shit out, he never considered he'd taken things too far?

To be fair, Itachi was still like in puberty when he came up with the plan, so the brilliance of it is questionable. Of course, given the amount of hero worship Sasuke had for him, it might have been warranted.

That's true enough I suppose. Possibly telling him to live in hate was a bad idea though, given where that road lead.

Usually is, usually is...

Now that I think about it, that part was pretty much off-the-cuff, since after Tsukiyomi, Itachi didn't expect Sasuke to come after him.

Kinda shows how little he actually knew about his brother.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Still don't get it. I mean, popular archetype or not, that shouldn't have been enough to generate popularity.

She's a cute, patient, loving, shy girl who also is hardworking and while starts as weak-willed does get better over time.

SHe next to no screen time for 98% of the manga, so there was very little of her actual character, or personality fleshed out...

She got little screen time, but she used it REALLY WELL, acting as sort of "Naruto who keeps failing because isn't the Main Chara but doesn't give up anyway".
Basically, her every appearance lasting more than two panels is a character defining\developing moment. She honestly got more character development than most other characters with ten times her screen-time.

The anime also did help A LOT by expanding and flashing out her.

That's true enough I suppose. Possibly telling him to live in hate was a bad idea though, given where that road lead.

Well, the only problem in that was Orochimaru taking advantage of it... not even Itachi was all-knowing.
Also, it's possible it was supposed to show even Itachi, the Super-Perfect-Hokage-at-5 Itachi was damaged goods because of the Ninja System

Kinda shows how little he actually knew about his brother.

I don't think Itachi ever actually understood Sasuke.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Still don't get it. I mean, popular archetype or not, that shouldn't have been enough to generate popularity.

She's a cute, patient, loving, shy girl who also is hardworking and while starts as weak-willed does get better over time.

Debatable. Whether someone is "cute" is down to personal taste, and in the beginning, she's not being patient she's in love with a boy she spies on, who doesn't even know she exists. On top of that, we don't actually know if she works hard or not. We see her spy on Naruto occasionally, why is she doing that instead of training?

As for weak willed, that doesn't even begin to cover it. At the beginning, she had all the fortitude of wet paper. She gets better when her crush starts to ackowledge her. That shallow, and horrible character development.

SHe next to no screen time for 98% of the manga, so there was very little of her actual character, or personality fleshed out...

She got little screen time, but she used it REALLY WELL, acting as sort of "Naruto who keeps failing because isn't the Main Chara but doesn't give up anyway".
Basically, her every appearance lasting more than two panels is a character defining\developing moment. She honestly got more character development than most other characters with ten times her screen-time.

Yes, because what I really wanted was a cheap female knock off of the protagonist, with no backbone, bland design and no personality outside of her crush on the protagonist. Most of her dialogue, or inner thoughts are about Naruto. She's as single minded in her devotion to him, as Sakura and Ino are to Sasuke. But whereas the two of them are open, and constantly trying to get their crushes attention, she sits back and does nothing! She does nothing, until he's about to be captured by Pein, at which point she jumps in by herself just so she can confess while she has a chance, charges Pein and get's bitch slapped in one move.

This has the wonderful effect of being the straw that break the camels back. I mean, it's not like Naruto was already feeling guilty about the people who had already died trying to protect him. No, he was completely fine with that... Right up until somebody does that, while saying the love him directly in front of him. At which point, Kyuubi very nearly get's freed to wreck shit, before Obito inevitably captures, and enslaves it. (For reference, that's mainly a rant about people who think Naruto went Six-Tails purely because of Hinata.)

The anime also did help A LOT by expanding and flashing out her.

The anime is filler, and therefore shouldn't matter in character development. Or are you going to say the movies are all canon as well? Because, Time Travel, flying ninja, actual demons, a bloodline that brings back the dead were so prominent in canon.

That's true enough I suppose. Possibly telling him to live in hate was a bad idea though, given where that road lead.

Well, the only problem in that was Orochimaru taking advantage of it... not even Itachi was all-knowing.
Also, it's possible it was supposed to show even Itachi, the Super-Perfect-Hokage-at-5 Itachi was damaged goods because of the Ninja System

He was, what, 13/14 at the time? Anbu Captain at that. He really should have known better. Hell, I think Kakashi at that age would have known better than to needlessly risk the objective.

Kinda shows how little he actually knew about his brother.

I don't think Itachi ever actually understood Sasuke.

I don't think anyone understood Sasuke.

 

[Altered Nova]

Wait, so if it weren't for the editors the Fourth Hokage would have been a ninja dog?

Damn you editors!

Hinata is popular because she has a sympathetic backstory (emotionally abused and neglected by her father in favor of her younger, more talented sister), she's cute, and many male readers have a brotherly instinct to want to protect the shy, quiet, unconfident, weak girl who desperately wants to get stronger.

It also helps that her personality is so thin, because people like to project themselves or their own interpretations of her character onto her. Just read any random fanfic with Hinata as a main character, odds are she'll barely resemble her canon personality. (It's the same deal with the Naruto in Name Only phenomenon, it's just more obvious when it happens to him because he's actually got a strong fleshed-out personality in canon)

Personally I'm not a huge fan of her, but I can understand why she's appealing to so many people.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Wait, so if it weren't for the editors the Fourth Hokage would have been a ninja dog?

Damn you editors!

Given how little use Minato actually was at the end, Inukage might have been a bit more useful.

Hinata is popular because she has a sympathetic backstory (emotionally abused and neglected by her father in favor of her younger, more talented sister), she's cute, and many male readers have a brotherly instinct to want to protect the shy, quiet, unconfident, weak girl who desperately wants to get stronger.

The problem with her backstory, is that The Idiot tries to hard to make her sympathetic, and and it come off as agrivating. Her sister was just flat out better than her, so of course her Father would neglect her, for the one better suited to being Heir. The emotional abuse also makes sense, considering there pretty close to being Nobility, and therefore need to project a strong image. The abuse was likely an attempt to "toughen" her up. Obviously she was too weak to handle it.

Why the bloody hell was she a ninja? A proper Med-Nin(unlike Sakura, who was a combat medic) I could maybe see.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of her, but I can understand why she's appealing to so many people.

That makes one of us at least. I don't think I'll ever understand it, regardless of what explanation is given. It's like liking a very specific section of the wallpaper, that's no different from the rest of it.

 

[Altered Nova]

Wait. Are you arguing that Hiashi was justified in emotionally abusing and neglecting his daughter? Because you sound like you support his actions, and are coming damn close to blaming the victim there.

 

[MastaofBitches]

That depends entirely on if I'm correct in my assumption as to why he did it. If I am, then it shouldn't have gone on as long as it did. When it became clear she wasn't building any tolerance to it, he should have given her up as a lost cause, and had her branded with the Cursed seal. It's also possible I'm wrong, and he was just emotionally abusing her because she was a glaring disappointment.

 

[jakkuzarippa]

lol. Grade A victim blaming. This is almost as bad as "legitimate rape" a couple of years ago.

Come on man, we get it, you don't like her. Shit, many of us even respect your opinion despite your militant stance on it. If we didn't, you'd still be getting needled every day instead of every once in a while. Your pics topic would be spammed with images of her. [Insert any manner of petty fuckery online anonymity allows us]. But most of us aren't complete assholes and that pettiness takes waayy too much effort to pursue (at least for me).

I mean, I don't particularly like Sasuke, but I'm not screaming for him to be sealed in a dungeon under Konoha and his seed harvested for the next generation of Uchihas to be bred loyal to Konoha. But that's what they should logically do, right? Because Konoha is a military village and must project a strong image and bolster its strength by any means necessary, right? Fuck his backstory and past trials and tribulations. You see how crazy that makes me sound?

I hate to be that armchair psychologist, but your dislike seems to be warping you into a caricature of your online persona. Either you really are going loco over this shit, or you subconsciously enjoy the validation, negative or positive, in our responses. Shit, I'm making myself a part of this problem by typing this out.

If it is the latter, then hope you enjoyed this. :huh.:

 

[MastaofBitches]

I don't think I said it was her fault though. I said he had a reason to do what he did, but he pushed for much longer than he should have. His approach obviously wasn't working, but he kept at it anyway.

 

[goldenarms]

I don't think I said it was her fault though. I said he had a reason to do what he did, but he pushed for much longer than he should have. His approach obviously wasn't working, but he kept at it anyway.

And thus, we have accidentally and completely mapped out how Clan X Doujutsu thinks.

As far as the Clan goes, Hiashi had about as much choice in how to do things as Hizashi did. "For the good of the Clan, we must _____." In a sense, the entire Hyuuga family bought into the same idea of fate that Neji preached, believing that they had no control over their destinies and were merely puppets under the watch of the Byakugan, no pun intended (but very appropriate). To defy fate is to die, as Hizashi's death effectively read to the clan.

And then Naruto punches Fate in the dick and calls it a pussy.

It's funny and sad that Hiashi jumped on that opportunity like a starving man jumps on a seven course meal cooked by Gordon Ramsay. No matter how flimsy the idea might be, or how unwieldy the plan could be, Hiashi was like, "FUCKIT!" and ran with the ball. When a snot-nosed 12 year old punk is your salvation, you can rest assured, the system you're running from is fucked up beyond all recognition.

 

[Emerald Oracle]

It also helps that her personality is so thin, because people like to project themselves or their own interpretations of her character onto her.

Y'know I think you've pinpointed the reason for my dislike of Hinata in a way that I've never actually articulated even in my head. I think that's probably why the more she gets shoved in my face the less I like her as well because the 2D cardboardiness just stands out more.

Also
I now have the mental image of Minato as one of Kakashi's summons, secretly hiding out because Reasons.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Also
I now have the mental image of Minato as one of Kakashi's summons, secretly hiding out because Reasons.

You could even justify it as him aving split a piece of his Soul, and stuffed it into a dog body, because he thought it was a good idea at the time.

Also, because nobody suspects dogs of peeping. He was Jiraiya's student, after all.

 

[goldenarms]

It also helps that her personality is so thin, because people like to project themselves or their own interpretations of her character onto her.

I hate it when people do that. Largely because most people fail to understand how shy people work.

Y'know I think you've pinpointed the reason for my dislike of Hinata in a way that I've never actually articulated even in my head. I think that's probably why the more she gets shoved in my face the less I like her as well because the 2D cardboardiness just stands out more.

Just about everyone not Naruto, Sasuke, and arguably Shikamaru suffers from this, so it shouldn't be that unique.