Naruto [Naruto] Recommended Reading

[daniel_gudman]

Considering that civilian oversight and control of the military is one of those things that has unarguably make the world a better place,

Stories like those bug me, not because it's unrealistic for a bunch of insular xenophobic warriors to think that way; but because the fanfic author often doesn't seem to realize that what is getting criticized is a proven moral good. It's just weird, it makes me feel like the author needs to take another civics class.

 

[Shirotsume]

I'm of two minds. Civilian oversight and leadership is commendable, and I would declare that it is the unarguable way to do things.

That said, I start having issues when the merely rich start having the ability to directly give ops to death squads, which is what the story is rebelling against.

The Hokage, and thus the ninja, answer to the oversight and direction of the Daimyo, not some textile merchent that's side-eyeing his competition in Grass.


One of these is in the civilian council... the other is the leader of his country.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Eeeeh even then cartel oligarchies are usually less horrible to live under than ideologically absolute tyrannies, but at that point it kind of depends on specifics.

And it's a little rich to blame the merchants for hiring death squads, when it's the death squads that are running the protection racket?

I mean between some textile merchant side-eyeing his competition in Grass and a professional assassin; it's not the rich guy with blood soaked into his gloves, let me put it that way.

Like, any fanfic that tries to be a social commentary on the setting of the Naruto world; if it doesn't deal with how fucked up the "hidden village system" is, then it's... well it's coming from a much different interpretation of source than I am, at least.

 

[Master of Squirrel-Fu]

The thing is that it is a military base of operations they are overseeing. You don't want a council of merchants and nobles micromanaging soldiers. They'd have a say in home affairs and what can impact life as a civilian or resident of the village but in most of these fics the "Council" has the ability to step on the toes of military actions both overt and covert. And this is during what is essentially a cold war that has lasted for about a century.

Essentially while a council to consult is good in these stories they often have more power than they should reasonably have to protect the interests of the people.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

The problem with those stories is that people judge the civilian population overall based on their thoughts on Naruto. And until the Ebisu flashback we saw no good side of them.
It is kinda fair, from a reader's point of view view, to hate the people that hate the main character when it did not do anything wrong, but since we have no idea of where else they are good or bad at people label them as bad in one thing = bad in everything.
I think the most realistic would be a fic where most of the current council would either be positive or neutral towards him, and do their best to teach the ones that are not about the error of their ways.
But that would be boring. Why add a civilian council out of nowhere if it is not to be a political foe?

 

[shioran toushin]

Civilian (more like Rich Merchant associations really) council with executive/legislative power on the fictional equivalent of a Military Base that already answers to the Civilian Government (the Daimyo) is stupid in fandom because IIRC it is not really a Civilian council, but either a Rich Merchant dudes with sshady intentions or members of the fictional and imaginary We Hate Naruto club.

and while a Civilian OCuncil acting like an Urban Developement Division would be great, a 'Civilian Council' that has anything to say in a freaking NInja Village is stupidly retarded because of at least three things:
1.- Chakra Gives you Superpowers
2.- it's a goddamned Military settlement made by, for and caters to the equivalent of Superpowered Mercenaries that are on Retainer to a 'country'.
3.- repeating myself, it's a fucking ninja village, which helped clans for... not murdering eachother and fuck the casualties.

OTOH i agree with the needed Outsider PoV of daniel Gudman, even if he is seeing it from outside the 'in-universe' setting (but it's still a true thing)

 

[Shirotsume]

I guess my point is, we already have oversight/outsider PoV from the Daimyo, which is how it's supposed to work.

A civilian council/board for Konoha also makes sense- until you start giving them control of military assets. Then you basically have a sort of 'PMC' situation, except within your own military.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Civilian Council makes sense only in two forms:

1. being the FIRE COUNTRY council, so no micromanaging the Village(would they even know where the village is or what happens in here? Unlikely).
2. being the CIVILIAN council, dealing only with CIVILIAN issues, completely subordinated to the Hokage's will: they exist because they are useful to keep routine maintenance and managements away from the Military Higher Ups so they can focus on more important topics.

Anything else, makes no sense.

 

[lord geryon]

Or, you know, the council is just a bunch of advisors with no actual power.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

they wouldn't be a council, then

 

[daniel_gudman]

Then you basically have a sort of 'PMC' situation, except within your own military.

Compared to the "Fire Country", isn't that kind of what the "Leaf Village" already is though?

I mean, this isn't really something Kishimoto ever really got that into so I'm really reaching here so it's not like I'm super-confident in my interpretation, but I've been kind of thinking that the Villages organized as a cartel of Ninja Clans in an area, and then they have a contract with the Daimyo where the villages are paid an annual retainer budget and in exchange they only work for the one country?

I guess the thing is we've got some contradictory stuff going on here; I mean the Daimyo is theoretically supposed to be appointing the Hokage or something? But those two crusty old farts from Sarutobi's team basically decided whether to solely nominate Jiraiya (he declined) or Tsunade.

And the ninjas never ever even once talk about being loyal to the Fire Country, instead they always talk about the Leaf Village, which had frankly terrifying social implications. (Imagine an army caste where people are loyal to the army instead of the nation, kind of like the Janissaries).

 

[Master of Squirrel-Fu]

Then you basically have a sort of 'PMC' situation, except within your own military.

Compared to the "Fire Country", isn't that kind of what the "Leaf Village" already is though?

I mean, this isn't really something Kishimoto ever really got that into so I'm really reaching here so it's not like I'm super-confident in my interpretation, but I've been kind of thinking that the Villages organized as a cartel of Ninja Clans in an area, and then they have a contract with the Daimyo where the villages are paid an annual retainer budget and in exchange they only work for the one country?

I guess the thing is we've got some contradictory stuff going on here; I mean the Daimyo is theoretically supposed to be appointing the Hokage or something? But those two crusty old farts from Sarutobi's team basically decided whether to solely nominate Jiraiya (he declined) or Tsunade.

And the ninjas never ever even once talk about being loyal to the Fire Country, instead they always talk about the Leaf Village, which had frankly terrifying social implications. (Imagine an army caste where people are loyal to the army instead of the nation, kind of like the Janissaries).

They're essentially mercenaries so loyalty to their own first make sense. So long as the village remains a subordinate of the state the complications are minimized so long as they are treated adequately. The daimyo must have some hell of a leverage for them to remain in charge, or some kind of insurance at least given what ninja are capable of to not have already been usurped. Or it might be that going against the Daimyo would be more trouble than it's worth in that they will essentially be at war with their own country and unlikely to gain allies from other countries due to staging a coup.

Nominations make sense, it's unlikely the Daimyo knows all the ninja, and likely trusts them to only bring forth the most fiting candidates to lead since they already know what is needed to be a ninja where a civilian appointer wont. The Ninja are satisfied that they have a good leader no mater what and the Daimyo gets to make the final choice between who he likes better.

 

[atlas_hugged]

How about a civilian council that is just a homeowner's association combined with a zoning board with deference to military assets? They would still have tons of power to fill the cliche role of ruining Naruto's life, while not actually having any authority over military matters.

 

[Shirotsume]

I think that's what we all feel it should be except Daniel.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Well I mean

Historically those kind of military deep state structures go a really long way towards the kinds of messed up zero-sum reprisal politics that Kishimoto called "the cycle of hatred".

I mean in terms of structure all of these Naruto countries are basically Pakistan, like that?

 

[ankokudaishogun]

more like medieval Italy, I think.

 

[Shirotsume]

The counter-argument is that it could go like the Turkey of past before Erdrogan took power.

Sometimes you really can trust the military to uphold the tenants of your land and act as a balance of power to the money and political influence of those less scrupled.


tl;dr: I'm just saying, lets not have the local mayor start ordering Fort Worth to do military operations. This way lay madness.

 

[Altered Nova]

I'm with daniel on this one. The Hidden Village system in the Narutoverse is inherently flawed. The ninja villages are essentially private military contractors with an effective monopoly on military force within their host nations. Unlike a normal army which is funded by taxes and therefore loyal to their nation, ninja are required to raise money by selling their services to the highest bidder, with their host nation merely being their largest customer. This means that true long term peace is literally impossible - if their host nations aren't producing enough demand for soldiers then the villages will export war to the smaller nations, or just manufacture a war to increase demand and eliminate their competitors.

Pain actually points this out to Hidan in one of their meetings. Shinobi villages generally cost more money to maintain then they bring in, so smaller nations hire foreign shinobi to do their fighting. The most powerful and trusted shinobi villages in the five great nations benefit from this, exporting their services to those smaller nations. In fact they bring in so much money that their host nation's economies become dependent on them. Therefore, as Pain says, "war becomes a necessary evil."

So yeah, the Kage are basically the CEOs of private militaries who profit from conflict and are in brutal competition with each other, so it's hardly surprising that the Narutoverse is a wartorn hellscape. There is a reason that the military is nationalized, non-profit and subservient to civilian politicians in every modern democratic nation.

 

[Shirotsume]

That's... nice and all, but that has literally nothing to do with a civilian council with direct military control.

 

[Goldenfalls]

Are we allowed to rec quests? There's one that's ongoing that deals with the flawed village system. No civilian council has come up so far, though.

Marked for Death (story only)

It's a story about a group of Mist missing-nin of a variety of ranks who split off to make their own village after being sent on a suicide mission. I don't know how to spoiler tag on this site, but needless to say things derail very quickly in a good, exploring-more-of-the-world way.

 

[Altered Nova]

That's... nice and all, but that has literally nothing to do with a civilian council with direct military control.

My (admittedly indirect) point was that the Naruto world would almost certainly be a much nicer place to live if every ninja village had a civilian council with direct military control. Because civilian control of the military is something that is so inarguably good that all modern democratic nations do it. And it's kind of weird that pretty much every fanfic with a "evil civilian council" plot point doesn't seem to be aware of this fact.

(Of course civilian control of the military wouldn't be enough to fix the Naruto world. They would, at minimum, also need to nationalize all the ninja villages and turn them into non-profit organizations. But it would be a start.)

 

[shioran toushin]

well, two points for what Altered Nova wrote:
1.- true, but then again it's a relatively new system that is loads betther than the previous one they had (warring Ninja Clans killing eachother indiscriminately and taking any job), so they seem to go in the 'right' way.
2.- Evil Civilian Council is sadly used by authors as a Plot device to justify their 'Naruto' being... whatever they want, so they won't care about the fact it should be somewhat beneficial to the village.

 

[AoMythology]

Konoha has never shown any traces of a non-shinobi council beyond Homura and Koharu, but Suna DOES have a council, IIRC.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Given we KNOW a number of shinobi, shinobi relatives and former shinobi own business in Konoha, how likely it is that a "Civilian(merchant) Council" wouldn't be run by proxy for ninjas anyway?

 

[daniel_gudman]

that could be pretty good in it's own right; the "civilian council" is a bunch of crotchety retired ninja militating for increased pension payments and more handrails on stairs and Kakashi is like "ohmigod I can't even"