Persona 4 What-If's
- Thread starter lord geryon
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*rolls eyes*
You mean Izanagi-no-Ookami one-shotting Izanami? I was lurking the Gamefaqs boards a day or two after the game came out in Japan, so I managed to spoil myself months ago.
Yeah, and the truth is that you're probably right. Having a Persona is what keeps the Shadow Self from forming. However, the nature of a Persona-users Mayonaka TV awakening is different from that of a P3 User. The fact that a P3 user never "faced himself" is what might make it possible for a Shadow Self to form. Hell, the stronger the Persona, the stronger the newborn Shadow, probably.
If we were to go by pure logic, you're right. But what could be more interesting, dramatically speaking, than a highly capable warrior losing his weapon, and needing to face the dark truths he sees in himself in order to win it back, much less survive?
...Okay, I apologize for that last bit. I'm writing dialogue for Igor, and his speech patterns are affecting my mind.
You mean Izanagi-no-Ookami one-shotting Izanami? I was lurking the Gamefaqs boards a day or two after the game came out in Japan, so I managed to spoil myself months ago.
Yeah, and the truth is that you're probably right. Having a Persona is what keeps the Shadow Self from forming. However, the nature of a Persona-users Mayonaka TV awakening is different from that of a P3 User. The fact that a P3 user never "faced himself" is what might make it possible for a Shadow Self to form. Hell, the stronger the Persona, the stronger the newborn Shadow, probably.
If we were to go by pure logic, you're right. But what could be more interesting, dramatically speaking, than a highly capable warrior losing his weapon, and needing to face the dark truths he sees in himself in order to win it back, much less survive?
...Okay, I apologize for that last bit. I'm writing dialogue for Igor, and his speech patterns are affecting my mind.
Once again, people: contracts are the key. In most major works of fantasy, supernatural powers are VERY CAREFUL as to what they say and promise to do, because they are bound by their word.
In Persona 3, Minato signs a contract given to him by Pharos--"I chooseth this fate of mine own free will".
He was literally bound by a contract with Death (Y HALO THAR PHAROS) to accept the consequneces of whatever decisions he made throughout that year.
Persona 1 and 2? Hello, Philemon. Also, in P2, with the Joker calls--it's a contract with the Joker. In IS, if one is unable to tell the Joker their wish quickly enough, they have their souls stolen--part of his contract, as told by the rumors about him.
In Persona 4, it's with Izanami. The handshake at the beginning? That's how business-men seal contracts.
Wow... over-analysis wheeee....
EDIT: Why yes... truly, the nature of the one who calls himself "Igor" is an interesting case. Is he a man, or a homonculous in the shape of a man, or something perhaps stranger still? Truly, one of the greater mysteries to ponder.
h43r:
In Persona 3, Minato signs a contract given to him by Pharos--"I chooseth this fate of mine own free will".
He was literally bound by a contract with Death (Y HALO THAR PHAROS) to accept the consequneces of whatever decisions he made throughout that year.
Persona 1 and 2? Hello, Philemon. Also, in P2, with the Joker calls--it's a contract with the Joker. In IS, if one is unable to tell the Joker their wish quickly enough, they have their souls stolen--part of his contract, as told by the rumors about him.
In Persona 4, it's with Izanami. The handshake at the beginning? That's how business-men seal contracts.
Wow... over-analysis wheeee....
EDIT: Why yes... truly, the nature of the one who calls himself "Igor" is an interesting case. Is he a man, or a homonculous in the shape of a man, or something perhaps stranger still? Truly, one of the greater mysteries to ponder.
h43r: &^%$.
Double *&^%.
Okay, going to play--wait, almost done with P3.
*sigh*
My biggest problem with videogames is that I have to work to finish them. I spend hours doing little things, like looking for scenic views, or fusing certain monsters, or perfecting a technique...
All right, I'll shut up about the Midnight Channel.
Double *&^%.
Okay, going to play--wait, almost done with P3.
*sigh*
My biggest problem with videogames is that I have to work to finish them. I spend hours doing little things, like looking for scenic views, or fusing certain monsters, or perfecting a technique...
All right, I'll shut up about the Midnight Channel.
My two cents on the Persona/Shadow thing...
Okay, personae are shadows. They always have been. But...there is a difference between The Dark Hour and the television world. People can just exist in the Dark Hour, and while some do have their shadows come out and devour them, it looks like, it's not a guarantee that those shadows will inevitably manifest. Case in point, we never ran into a Shadow Fuuka. So, it seems to me that the world inside of the television has a much stronger effect on shadows than the Dark Hour does. Furthermore, Persona 3 crew virtually never manifest their personae on their own...they always had to use their evokers to do so. Furthermore, it seems they possibly didn't always have perfect control, demonstrated by Shinjiro having Castor accidentally kill Ken's mother...so, they may not have perfect control over their shadows. That, combined with the atmosphere, could hypothetically result in their personae breaking free, forcing them to confront them again, this time confronting those deep, dark parts of themselves they've been avoiding acknowledging.
On the other hand, everyone except Shinjiro and Koromaru did confront themselves, to a certain extent. They faced a part of themselves they'd been running from and acknowledged it. So, I could buy that they may have already faced themselves and accepted those parts, thus fulfilling the necessary requirements to truly control their persona, with them not manifesting it naturally just being a mental block, or evokers simply being easier to utilize than concentration. I mean, yes, I doubt they're perfectly balanced, but neither are the Persona 4 gang...that's why you have to go through their social links to, to complete the process of discovering and accepting themselves, and even that's not perfect.
But, I really don't think that there's some straight forward line that, once a shadow crosses, it's now a persona, no going back. I think it's very possible that, given the right circumstances, a persona could regress to a shadow, given the right mental stimulus...or, in this case, the right environment.
Ultimately, I guess what I'm saying is that I could see it going either way. Also, I haven't played The Answer, so I'm not sure how much everyone's come to grips with Minato's death and all that. I need to do that. Eventually. One of these days.
Okay, personae are shadows. They always have been. But...there is a difference between The Dark Hour and the television world. People can just exist in the Dark Hour, and while some do have their shadows come out and devour them, it looks like, it's not a guarantee that those shadows will inevitably manifest. Case in point, we never ran into a Shadow Fuuka. So, it seems to me that the world inside of the television has a much stronger effect on shadows than the Dark Hour does. Furthermore, Persona 3 crew virtually never manifest their personae on their own...they always had to use their evokers to do so. Furthermore, it seems they possibly didn't always have perfect control, demonstrated by Shinjiro having Castor accidentally kill Ken's mother...so, they may not have perfect control over their shadows. That, combined with the atmosphere, could hypothetically result in their personae breaking free, forcing them to confront them again, this time confronting those deep, dark parts of themselves they've been avoiding acknowledging.
On the other hand, everyone except Shinjiro and Koromaru did confront themselves, to a certain extent. They faced a part of themselves they'd been running from and acknowledged it. So, I could buy that they may have already faced themselves and accepted those parts, thus fulfilling the necessary requirements to truly control their persona, with them not manifesting it naturally just being a mental block, or evokers simply being easier to utilize than concentration. I mean, yes, I doubt they're perfectly balanced, but neither are the Persona 4 gang...that's why you have to go through their social links to, to complete the process of discovering and accepting themselves, and even that's not perfect.
But, I really don't think that there's some straight forward line that, once a shadow crosses, it's now a persona, no going back. I think it's very possible that, given the right circumstances, a persona could regress to a shadow, given the right mental stimulus...or, in this case, the right environment.
Ultimately, I guess what I'm saying is that I could see it going either way. Also, I haven't played The Answer, so I'm not sure how much everyone's come to grips with Minato's death and all that. I need to do that. Eventually. One of these days.
Yeah, I know about the Mitsuru thing...the problem is, it seems to have been at a moment of threatened death/danger, an experience the Evoker presumably recreates, so whether they've truly accepted that part of themselves or not, or just managed to use the emotional high to perform a feat of desperation is debatable, as far as I can tell. Kind of like how someone could demonstrate extreme strength when desperate, but couldn't replicate it ordinarily. It could be that the evokers act like a crutch in that regard, as I believe has been suggested before...but, probably debatable.
And now I want to go play The Answer and see what you're talking about...though, not quite as much as I want to try and max out all the social links in Persona 4 this time around. :unsure:
And now I want to go play The Answer and see what you're talking about...though, not quite as much as I want to try and max out all the social links in Persona 4 this time around. :unsure:
Whee, wild mass guessing time!
Okay, so in just about every Persona game, Igor mentions that the Velvet Room is a place between our world and "the other side". The other side is the world of dreams, and includes just about everthing that isn't our world. So the Abyss of Time, Philemon's realm, possibly heaven and hell and the TV World are all part of this "other side."
Tartarus, like the Velvet Room, is not part of the "other side,: but does lead to it (Nyx's demense), so it's probably another in-between place.
So, if Shadows manifest themselves only on the "other side", then the S.E.E.S. crew could probably face whatever fears about themselves that they still have in the TV world. :huh.:
Just my thought on the matter.
Okay, so in just about every Persona game, Igor mentions that the Velvet Room is a place between our world and "the other side". The other side is the world of dreams, and includes just about everthing that isn't our world. So the Abyss of Time, Philemon's realm, possibly heaven and hell and the TV World are all part of this "other side."
Tartarus, like the Velvet Room, is not part of the "other side,: but does lead to it (Nyx's demense), so it's probably another in-between place.
So, if Shadows manifest themselves only on the "other side", then the S.E.E.S. crew could probably face whatever fears about themselves that they still have in the TV world. :huh.:
Just my thought on the matter.
That's his fault anyway. I kinda wondered if Souji was feeling insane for even trying it. He saw them buy the ingredients and already knew how it would turn out before the 'curry' was ready. So he had to be crazy at the time.
The problem now is that I don't really know how I should do the next part. That's why I would rather let someone else do it.
The problem now is that I don't really know how I should do the next part. That's why I would rather let someone else do it.
What happens next is easy--you have Yousuke and Kanji reacting to Souji's resolution to teach the girls to cook ("Dude... I know that you've got some mad skills, but there are some things that are completely impossible, even for you. Like teaching those two how to cook."), with Souji ignoring them and buying cooking ingredients.
Try writing that.
And as for deserving it, well when I first saw the scene, my thoughts were "No way it's going to come out that bad..."
Souji probably felt the same thing. :lol:
Try writing that.
And as for deserving it, well when I first saw the scene, my thoughts were "No way it's going to come out that bad..."
Souji probably felt the same thing. :lol:
Just by the ingredients, once it started to go crazy, I knew for sure it would turn out that bad. And Souji knew that too. Remember the talk between him and Yosuke before he even saw what they did? HE KNEW! AND HE STILL TRIED IT!
And I didn't even think of your idea. Good one.
Maybe I could just create an open thread and let others add their own ideas, kind of like the 'New intros' topic in the Naruto forum.
And I didn't even think of your idea. Good one.
Maybe I could just create an open thread and let others add their own ideas, kind of like the 'New intros' topic in the Naruto forum.
For the Mitsuru idea everyone's been discussing...
I think she should have a dungeon(if this was in the game, it'd replace Mitsuo's arc.; the theme would be Tartarus.) Mitsuru's Shadow would act all cold and emotionless; mourning the loss of everyone she knows. When the group finds the real Mitsuru, she's trying to use her Persona desperately(cue "You're not me" bit here.) After the fight, Mitsuru regains her Persona(in its original form.) Where the idea goes is the writer's choice.
I think she should have a dungeon(if this was in the game, it'd replace Mitsuo's arc.; the theme would be Tartarus.) Mitsuru's Shadow would act all cold and emotionless; mourning the loss of everyone she knows. When the group finds the real Mitsuru, she's trying to use her Persona desperately(cue "You're not me" bit here.) After the fight, Mitsuru regains her Persona(in its original form.) Where the idea goes is the writer's choice.
I'm not sure why Mitsuru and the others would even have Shadows, or unable to access their own; by the end of P3, they have already faced their own weaknesses and strengthened their resolve.
I think it'd be pretty funny to see Teddy or Rise trying to track her down, but having a hard time because she keeps moving; after a few days of hunting her, they find her in the weapon store choosing a sword so that she can kill the Shadows in her zone and figure out what's going on.
I think it'd be pretty funny to see Teddy or Rise trying to track her down, but having a hard time because she keeps moving; after a few days of hunting her, they find her in the weapon store choosing a sword so that she can kill the Shadows in her zone and figure out what's going on.
Well, I already gave my spiel on why I think it's possible she might have a Shadow, but I also said I thought it was possible she wouldn't, so.
However, though funny, I'm not sure how Mitsuru could leave in the first place...for the Persona 4 crew, it seems like Teddie is their only means of escape. I mean, I suppose she could accidentally run across the television set stack while they're off looking for her somewhere else, but that seems to be the only way most people could enter or exit the place, and when Teddy hasn't created them, they're probably nonexistent... :unsure:
Though, there's a lot of funny things about Teddie anyways. Even after you find out what he really is, I don't remember them ever addressing whatever gave him that boost Rise mentioned back with the whole Shadow Teddie escapade, and I never really felt it was satisfactorily explained why he reacted so differently to persona users...
However, though funny, I'm not sure how Mitsuru could leave in the first place...for the Persona 4 crew, it seems like Teddie is their only means of escape. I mean, I suppose she could accidentally run across the television set stack while they're off looking for her somewhere else, but that seems to be the only way most people could enter or exit the place, and when Teddy hasn't created them, they're probably nonexistent... :unsure:
Though, there's a lot of funny things about Teddie anyways. Even after you find out what he really is, I don't remember them ever addressing whatever gave him that boost Rise mentioned back with the whole Shadow Teddie escapade, and I never really felt it was satisfactorily explained why he reacted so differently to persona users...
Ah, yes, that makes more sense. One thought might be that Mitsuru's world is now that of the Kirijo Corporation, complete with its many outlets and franchises, forming some elaborate, byzantine monstrosity...including some weapons store somewhere. That, or part of her is still back in Tatsumi Port, with those areas that were important to her being the primary pieces of architecture...so we might have something like the dorm merging into Tartarus, with the school, the police station complete with handy weapons disposal, and a few other places. Though, if so, I imagine they might have that door with Minato in it somewhere...eh. Just speculation.
Another thing I've randomly been wondering about, since I just got around to rescuing Naoto is...Naoto's shadow was planning on mucking around with Naoto's body, right? Probably a sex change operation and maybe some sort of growth procedure, so that Naoto could be treated both as a man and as an adult. So, as I was doing this, I was wondering...was there any chance that the shadow could actually have done any of that? Is it possible that, if we'd been just a bit too late, Naoto might have actually either been aged about a decade, actually been turned into the guy she posed as, or both? And if so...what would the consequences be? I mean, Naoto didn't really want to become a guy. She wanted to be accepted. She just thought that was the only way she could be accepted in the role she wanted to assume in society...so, how would she react to the actuality of it? Alternatively, if she'd been aged, but rescued before the sex-change operation came along...well...age has its own problems. And either change has some rather major issues when your identity in society is registered as a particular age or sex...
...well, it's just a thought. Probably be somewhat on the dark side, I imagine...
Edit: Erk. Thinking about some of the similarities between Naoto and Kanji's issues with gender roles and how they both dealt with them, combined with the whole crossdressing competition, is giving me the thoroughly improbable mental image of each of them having taken the other's route towards dealing with them...Naoto having become aggressively female and denying her true desires, with Kanji taking up crossdressing to try and have his hobbies become acceptable...
...of course, unless Kanji left Inaba, given that people would know who he was, I imagine there'd be a minimal chance of it actually being anywhere near feasible...too many rumors in a town that small. On the other hand, if he left, took it up, and came back, I suppose it would be feasible...oh, man, the Yakushima flashbacks this concept brings me... :rofl:
:rip1:
Another thing I've randomly been wondering about, since I just got around to rescuing Naoto is...Naoto's shadow was planning on mucking around with Naoto's body, right? Probably a sex change operation and maybe some sort of growth procedure, so that Naoto could be treated both as a man and as an adult. So, as I was doing this, I was wondering...was there any chance that the shadow could actually have done any of that? Is it possible that, if we'd been just a bit too late, Naoto might have actually either been aged about a decade, actually been turned into the guy she posed as, or both? And if so...what would the consequences be? I mean, Naoto didn't really want to become a guy. She wanted to be accepted. She just thought that was the only way she could be accepted in the role she wanted to assume in society...so, how would she react to the actuality of it? Alternatively, if she'd been aged, but rescued before the sex-change operation came along...well...age has its own problems. And either change has some rather major issues when your identity in society is registered as a particular age or sex...
...well, it's just a thought. Probably be somewhat on the dark side, I imagine...
Edit: Erk. Thinking about some of the similarities between Naoto and Kanji's issues with gender roles and how they both dealt with them, combined with the whole crossdressing competition, is giving me the thoroughly improbable mental image of each of them having taken the other's route towards dealing with them...Naoto having become aggressively female and denying her true desires, with Kanji taking up crossdressing to try and have his hobbies become acceptable...
...of course, unless Kanji left Inaba, given that people would know who he was, I imagine there'd be a minimal chance of it actually being anywhere near feasible...too many rumors in a town that small. On the other hand, if he left, took it up, and came back, I suppose it would be feasible...oh, man, the Yakushima flashbacks this concept brings me... :rofl:
:rip1:
Just got an awesome idea after checking the calendar.
Think about it: Friday the 13th then Valentine Day right after. I still need to sort my ideas a bit, but considering how the school campout and the Culture Festival went, can you even imagine how THAT will turn out?
Hmmm... Should I feel guilty for making Souji suffer so much? And let's try to not use the automatic 'multiple girlfriends' problem. Been done too much in my opinion.
Think about it: Friday the 13th then Valentine Day right after. I still need to sort my ideas a bit, but considering how the school campout and the Culture Festival went, can you even imagine how THAT will turn out?
Hmmm... Should I feel guilty for making Souji suffer so much? And let's try to not use the automatic 'multiple girlfriends' problem. Been done too much in my opinion.
The only way the suffering will be great is if the girls all MAKE their chocolates. If it's just Souji getting the chocolate, the pain is localized. The true horror comes from the girls giving homemade chocolates to the rest of the school's male population.
Sorry, Kou. You get to suffer along with the rest of them.
Sorry, Kou. You get to suffer along with the rest of them.