Ranma ½ Rosario + Ranma

Black Dragon74 said:
Depends on what kind. Tobaki is a D&D style demon, and in that setting it's devils that are cunning and who tempt humans, while demons just kill things mindlessly.
Let's be completely fair; while the tanar'ri are more likely to rip off your head than anything, they also revel in corrupting mortals to destructive, horrific acts.

The baatezu would twist you into outlawing Pelor's worship and brutally persecuting his worshipers while spreading propoganda on those utterly immoral, debased heathens. The tanar'ri would have you walk into the temple, brutally slaughter the worshipers, then violate a priestess on his altar before pissing into his holy water.
 
Except for the violating the priestess part, that sounds suspiciously like a few parties I've played with before
 
lokinishizaki said:
I really wanted to stay out of this, but...

varth said:
You should take care and pay attention to what you are grouching about, or you are going to come off as know-nothing poser.
This just makes me laugh now.

Also, regardless of who's right or wrong in this case, I suggest you lay off. You entered fanboy territory a couple pages ago and the way I see it, that's about a thousand times as annoying as zb's one-liners or general negativity.
Hey! Leave my fanboys alone!

In most stories issue of love is handled with 12 years old approach:

a) they met and immediately fall in greatest love since Romeo and Juliet
b) they met as children so ofc they are in love
c) they hang around each othetr, so ofc they are in love
d) he saved her, so ofc she loves him
e) she is violent towards him, so ofc he loves her
and couple more completly idiotic patterns

I find your approach more realistic than typical fare, so I strongly disagree with zeebee.
Eh, I do what I can.
It also helps that I try not to make it the focus of the story. I'm a fan of the romantic SUB-plot, not the romance story.

Let's be completely fair; while the tanar'ri are more likely to rip off your head than anything, they also revel in corrupting mortals to destructive, horrific acts.

The baatezu would twist you into outlawing Pelor's worship and brutally persecuting his worshipers while spreading propoganda on those utterly immoral, debased heathens. The tanar'ri would have you walk into the temple, brutally slaughter the worshipers, then violate a priestess on his altar before pissing into his holy water.
Yeah, okay, so it varies between demons too. Yochlols themselves are much more than simple killing machines, infiltrating Drow society and carrying out Lolth's wishes. But tastes and practices aside, the goal of any demon tends toward chaos and destruction, while the goal of most devils tends toward corruption and Evil (with a capital "E", not just killing people who might not deserve it).
 
they'll just make you kill those people while learning to enjoy it,either that or you'll be consumed with guilt. it's a win-win situation for them (unless you become 'vengeance' then it's 50-50)
 
Black Dragon74 said:
Yeah, okay, so it varies between demons too. Yochlols themselves are much more than simple killing machines, infiltrating Drow society and carrying out Lolth's wishes. But tastes and practices aside, the goal of any demon tends toward chaos and destruction, while the goal of most devils tends toward corruption and Evil (with a capital "E", not just killing people who might not deserve it).
[NERD = ON] Naw, Evil (with a capital E) is the province of the yugoloths. [/NERD = ON]
 
Lord of Bones said:
Black Dragon74 said:
Yeah, okay, so it varies between demons too. Yochlols themselves are much more than simple killing machines, infiltrating Drow society and carrying out Lolth's wishes. But tastes and practices aside, the goal of any demon tends toward chaos and destruction, while the goal of most devils tends toward corruption and Evil (with a capital "E", not just killing people who might not deserve it).
[NERD = ON] Naw, Evil (with a capital E) is the province of the yugoloths. [/NERD = ON]
Hold up, Bones. Don't tag close that NERD just yet.
Do you know something I don't about Yugoloths?
 
While 3e makes little mention of it - and 4e outright raped them - the very first ultroloth created the artifact known as the Heart of Darkness, which he then used to purge his race of the impurities of law and chaos. The impurities found their way into the larvae of the Gray Waste, who the yugoloths then herded into Baator and the Abyss. The yugoloths themselves were created by the baernaloths, rumored to be the primordial aspects of Evil - they're one of the great secrets of the Lower Planes.

However, given the recent revelations behind the baatezu and tanar'ri, it's likely the larvae tainted by law and chaos became the Ancient Baatorians and the obyriths, who were then displaced by the baatezu and tanar'ri.

They are the architects of the Blood War. It's a giant experiment in the nature of Evil, and they'll end it on their terms. Meanwhile, they keep the other fiends jerked around like puppets while they hurl lesser yugoloths into the War like disposable trash. To an extent, they are; unlike the baatezu and tanar'ri, when a yugoloth dies a new mezzoloth rises from the Waste, Gehenna and maybe Carceri as well. They sneer at gods - the children of mortal faith - and they fact that they aren't made from mortal souls perhaps elevates them higher than the common devil and demon. While both pit fiends and balors look demonic and tower over their fellow fiends; the ultroloths are worse - they're tall humanoids garbed in black or gray cloaks and robes, and they're faceless save for a pair of fiery eyes. All ultroloths look alike; the paragons of faceless, remote, uncaring Evil.

The three yugoloth towers - the Tower Arcane of Gehenna, the Khin-Oin of Hades and the Tower of Incarnate Pain in Carceri - are actually part of a larger scheme of the loths; one that will make them the undisputable lords of the Lower Planes. Unfortunately, the Tower of Incarnate Pain is still under construction, and the gehreleths make constant raids on it at the behest of their god, Apomps.

The lords of the yugoloths are the ultroloths; there are none above that rank. The General of Gehenna was the very first, and the greatest. The Oinoloth is the ruler of Khin-Oin; the former Oinoloth was an altraloth called Anthraxus the Decayed, who was ousted from that post when an ultroloth prince called Mydianchlarus whispered a secret or lie so disturbing it shattered the Oinoloth's sense of identity. Now he wanders the planes; seeking powers and deals to reclaim his former throne; but even the gods fear what he may do and what he may yet become.

The fact that many of the yugoloth lords have disease-based names (Mydianchlarus, Anthraxus, Diptherius, Typhus) is perhaps rather telling; the yugoloths are like viruses, and they've infected and infested the Lower Planes like a malign, living disease.

It should be noted that the baatezu and tanar'ri were, at one point, stripped of their ability to greater teleport by the 'loths, although they've since restored it.

3E kind of really glosses over the loths, though; to the point where the ultroloths are still stuck with their 13 HD instead of being brought up to par with the pit fiends and balors.

I'm reconverting them to 3.5e in the "Everything Else RPG" subforum of this site.
 

Drawde

Well-Known Member
In 2E the yugoloths were the main mercenaries of the Blood War. One which neither side trusted, but they had to keep hiring just so the other side wouldn't have them.

They're well known for betraying their current employers for a better offer. But what isn't well known is that the "betrayals" only happen to keep the Blood War going. They don't want either side to win, so they keep the War from ever ending so they can keep profiting from it.

What isn't known is that even that is a lie. True, they don't want the War to end, but only until they're ready to gain control of the lower planes. Most things people "know" about them, including their complete mercenary ways, is a lie. They're Evil, and want to control reality. And are quite willing to spend millenia to do so.

The mentioned loss of the demon's and devil's teleportation ability was part of the plan. The ability was actually granted to them by the yugoloth. The adventure that it took place in was to stop their plan to gain control of the demons and devils by removing this ability, then offering it back to those who swore (unbreakably, of course) to serve them. That ability would, of course, give the only side who had it a great advantage.
 
That was beautiful.
No, I'm being serious, here. That encyclopedic essay about a fictional sub-species of monster, which is by some measures obsolete, just made my day.
 

varth

Well-Known Member
Black Dragon74 said:
That was beautiful.
No, I'm being serious, here. That encyclopedic essay about a fictional sub-species of monster, which is by some measures obsolete, just made my day.
Does that mean one of Tobaki's relatives will pay a visit one day, either to her or the headmaster?
 
The Eromancer said:
right... now I feel like a nerd, that WASN'T common knowledge?
Not to me, since I started playing D&D in 4th edition. The lore is somewhat... compressed (Bones used the word "raped", but I hardly find that descriptive).

Does that mean one of Tobaki's relatives will pay a visit one day, either to her or the headmaster?
Why yes, I am planning something like that.
That's like, five chapters away though, so there's no point in saying more.
 

Drawde

Well-Known Member
Old info. And as mentioned, obsolete.

Though the change from 2E to 3E wasn't as drastic as the one from 3E to 4E, things still changed. Much of the backstory mentioned in the older works was either ignored or said to be just one possibility. About the only really popular change was calling the demons and devils that again.

One thing to note BD, is the differences in the cosmology between 4E and the earlier editions. The seventeen outer planes were set in a wheel based on the alignment grid, with Concordant Opposition (neutrality) in the center and the other sixteen around it. Law and Chaos were opposite each other, and Good and Evil were too. So most of the outer planes were a mixture of two alignments. And each plane could have more than one level.

The Nine Hells were the plane of equal amounts of evil and law. The devils came from there. The Abyss was the plane of Evil and Chaos, with the demons coming from there. The two races had been at war since before recorded history, which was a long time ago considering that we're talking about gods doing the recording. Each side believed that their version of evil was the correct way, and basically weren't capable of being any other way, being esentially embodiments of their respective alignment.

Both races were mainly composed of the souls of the dead that came to rest in their respective planes. Said souls going to the plane that most closely matched their alignment, unless they worshipped a specific god. Though they also reproduced normally. And if they gained enough power, they could change into a stronger type.
 
It should also be noted that the baatezu were not the original natives of Baator - the creatures known as the Ancient Baatorians were displaced by the baatezu. How the baatezu actually came to rule the Nine Hells is a matter of debate, but it is known that the Lords of the Nine first appeared shortly after the Blood War began.

FC2 postulates that Asmodeus, the Dark Lord of Nessus, was an exemplar of Law serving the gods, but given that St Cuthbert is mentioned as among the deities of the time, it's probably all bunk. The Lord of Nessus might be a fallen examplar of Law corrupted by Evil, he might be the power of the layer of Nessus itself made manifest or he might not even be a baatezu. The Nine weren't even given statistics in 2e, except for their avatars.

It's also not mentioned that the fiendish lords are perfectly capable of cockslapping deities. Bel - or the Dark Lord - kicked out the warring orc and goblinoid pantheons and Graz'zt was stalemating both Orcus and Demogorgon (deities in 2e).

Faces of Evil: The Fiends and Hellbound: the Blood War go in-depth about the fiends and how they're promoted.
 

Drawde

Well-Known Member
Asmodeus was once a god in 2E, and might still be. He was one of a pair of serpent gods, him being LE and her being LG. The quotals (or something like that), were their servants. Asmodeus eventually started concentrating more on evil than balancing them out, and his opposite called him out on it. He refused to back down, and they fought. He lost and was cast down into the tenth layer of the Nine Hells, where he became trapped. Said layer being filled with crevaces, cause by both his landing and his struggles to leave the largest crevace, caused by his impact.

He's taken his current form in order to rule the devils. Though it's entirely to allow him to escape. He turned into a nihilist, wanting to destroy everything. He even tricked the Athar into thinking they'd contacted the real creator of reality, granting them the divine spells they can cast.

The Athar are one of the factions in the planes, believing that the gods are fake. After all, they're capable of making mistakes, aren't all powerful, and their religions are capable of being corrupted. So they refuse any divine help at all, eventually gaining resistance to divine spells. Some are able to cast divine spells though, and they believe that they'd managed to contact the actual "god" to gain them.
 
The Dark Lord being a god in 2e was a creation of the Guide to Hell supplement, which wasn't Planescape - or any setting - canon. It was an attempt at importing the Zoroastrian cosmology into the mainstream D&D-verse, which was not very well received by most fans.

3e pretty much ignores this interpretation of Baator, and the official stance on Asmodeus in 2e was "we don't know who he or she is, but he's powerful and he's scary and he's the undisputed Lord of Baator". Asmodeus wasn't officially named until 3e, in 2e he was called the Dark Lord of Nessus.
 

Drawde

Well-Known Member
He was in 1E as well, as Asmodeus.

Not certain if I ever saw that name in 2E, if that wasn't canon. I thought it was an official supplement though.
 
Yeah, Gygax didn't really flesh out the planes. Asmodeus, Dispater, Demogorgon, etc; were all lesser deities.
 
I love you guys. Threadjacks about old school Blood War and Lower Planes stuff is great. I haven't seen this much Planescape Lore ina a thread since the Torment LP.

That said, weren't the ancient baatorians the Baernoloths(Yugo Link?) or am I thinking of something else? Also anyone know if there's any info or sourcebooks about all the origin and history stuff on the upper planes? I've seen plenty of books on the lower planes, Limbo and Mechanus, but the Uppers seem to mostly get left out.
 

arhand

Well-Known Member
Black Dragon74 said:
The Eromancer said:
right... now I feel like a nerd, that WASN'T common knowledge?
Not to me, since I started playing D&D in 4th edition. The lore is somewhat... compressed (Bones used the word "raped", but I hardly find that descriptive).

Does that mean one of Tobaki's relatives will pay a visit one day, either to her or the headmaster?
Why yes, I am planning something like that.
That's like, five chapters away though, so there's no point in saying more.
The Parent/Child Festival?

Reactions to Genma or Nodoka could be interesting.
 
Shadowseraph said:
I love you guys. Threadjacks about old school Blood War and Lower Planes stuff is great. I haven't seen this much Planescape Lore ina a thread since the Torment LP.

That said, weren't the ancient baatorians the Baernoloths(Yugo Link?) or am I thinking of something else? Also anyone know if there's any info or sourcebooks about all the origin and history stuff on the upper planes? I've seen plenty of books on the lower planes, Limbo and Mechanus, but the Uppers seem to mostly get left out.
No, the baern were different - they created the yugoloths. The Ancient Baatorians were the original inhabitants of Baator before they were displaced by the baatezu. Their larvae form are the nuperibbos. The Ancient Baatorians may have been the larvae tainted by law when the General of Gehenna purified his race.

A huge chunk of fiendish lore comes from Faces of Evil: the Fiends and Hellbound: the Blood War.

The Upper Planes...Offhand, Planes of Law/Chaos/Conflict might be the ones you're looking for.
 
Shadowseraph said:
I love you guys. Threadjacks about old school Blood War and Lower Planes stuff is great. I haven't seen this much Planescape Lore ina a thread since the Torment LP.
Amen to that. This is way cooler than all that crap I was posting.

4th Ed DnD is much lighter on demonic lore, as far as I've seen (then again, I haven't looked around for much, and most of what I know is from the monster manuals). Which makes sense, as the edition shift tries to take the game further away from the obscure minutiae (of which lower-plane politics and allegiance structure sadly qualifies) for which the game is famous.

For example, I know they pared down the story behind the Illithid and the Drow considerably (I've always loved the Underdark) so that the mind flayers are no longer a massive cosmic cult and the Drow have been put back in their place as "Generic evil empire brooding underground".

The Parent/Child Festival?
Yeah, that thing.
No prizes for guessing the relative of Tobaki's that will be gracing the school with its presence.
 
The Illithids are/were from an apocalyptic future, IIRC. Their gods were Maanzecorian and Ilsensine; Ilsensine is still around - and he's not really worshiped as much as he's considered a paragon of their kind, even though he's a greater deity. Maanzecorian, on the other hand, got himself blown to bits by Orcus, alongside the Norse god Balder, an Aztec god, Primus of the Modrons and Baron Bwimb.

Yeah, it's a pity 4e really neutered a lot of lore. Melif the Lich-Lord from the Manual of the Planes, for instance, is actually Mellifleur, god of liches and magic, who accidentally became a god when a cosmic accident ended up screwing with the poor bastard's lichdom ritual and ended up siphoning the powers of several evil gods who were elevating their own servants to godhood.

The end result was Mellifleur ascending and being the target of several enraged evil deities; so now he spends much of his time countering their plans.

They also missed out on the vampire god Kanchelsis. And poor Demogorgon got robbed of his divinity. It must be why he's so pissy nowadays; the heads spend their time arguing about who's to blame for the retcon.

The Drow...man, that can sorely be laid on the Forgotten Realms. They removed several of the more interesting drow deities for the sake of HURR SPIDER QUEEN HURR.
 

Drawde

Well-Known Member
To quote the modrons, "Primus has always existed." Only the highest ranked of them can even understand that one of them became the new Primus. The modrons being such lawful creatures that a chaotic evil demon lord ruling them for a while didn't permanently corrupt them, but corrupted the demon lord.

Much of the lore was useless to most players and DMs, but it was still interesting. They put a lot of work into what backstory they told you. With what they didn't tell you being there for the DM to make up.

Unfortunentally the thing with the drow was one of the things they were trying to do with 4E, especially in FR. Simplify things AND get back to the roots of the game where those options never existed.
 
The Underdark races were the only piece of DnD lore I had before 4 ed came, since all the video games based on DnD just loved to toss you down there.
I know it's petty, but I was very disappointed that driders were changed from being the twisted results of Lolth's punishment to a sort of "Chosen" of Lolth. I always thought of serving Lolth as sort of a cautionary practice primarily to avoid her attentions and causing shit like that.
Heh, I still remember showing the picture of Demogorgon to a friend of mine who I was DMing for and telling him that Demogorgon was essentially the king of all demons.
"That mutant baboon? What does he do, fling crap at players to damage them?"
Really, if he always looked like that it's no wonder no one took him seriously as a God.
 
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