Harry Potter Ruthless bastard or Naive sap?

[Hawk]

As I was tinkering a bit with Black Heir and scribbled down some dialogue I wanted to use at some point in this fic, I started wondering about Dumbledore and all the 'misstakes' he's done with/around/concerning Harry over the years.

While he seems crazy at times, he's at least functionally crazy, so he should by no means actually be stupid.

So, if he isn't stupid, then what's the reason for all those incredibly bad decisions?

Is he simply a naive sap, who views the world through rose-tinted glasses, believing the best about everyone around him? It's certainly no unique trait, that's for sure. A whole lot of goody-two-shoes certainly seems to believe in the inherent goodness of man/woman.

Or are all those 'mistakes' simply coldly calculated actions to further some agenda of his? Did he make Harry's upbrining as close to that of Tom Riddle as he could, in order to absolve himself of guilt in the creation of Lord Voldemort by proving that turning dark under immense pressure is a personal choice, or perhaps in order to make Harry turn Dark, providing him with an excuse to get rid of a possible threat to his own position once Voldie is pushing up the dasies?

 

[Hawk]

Ruthless has my vote. The guy has seen at least two Dark Lords, he's lived through both world wars and a few minor ones. I simply refuse to believe that anyone that has been through all that would just turn over a baby to people he know nothing about, without ever checking up on the baby.

I mean, still believing in the inherent goodness of all mankind strongly enough to believe that no harm could possibly come to a child, after having been through several wars?

No way.

No bloody way.

 

[Fosfor]

Ruthless, all the way. Dumbles is far too intelligent, too powerful and too expirienced to view things like naive teenager that believes in goodness in everone. Not after two wars, atrocities done by Grindewald and Voldie, who he was DIRECTLY responsible for.

The way I see it, his "mistakes" were more or less deliberate and part of greater scheme. He gave Harry carefully thought out upbrigning designed to break him and make him latch at any ammount of affection he would be given after life time of neglect. I am also pretty sure that his meeting with Weasleys was no accident - I mean, a mother who has had no less than FOUR children attending Hogwarts, a graduate of the school herself, suddenly just forgetting the her way on the platform and making a scene out of it?

No, I believe that was planned. Dumbles wanted to have Harry firmly within his sphere of influence and what better way than to make them befriend the Weasleys - fanatically anti-dark, anti-slytherin family that think that "Great Albus Dumbledore" can do no wrong and is greatest thing since sliced bread? Remeber, if not for Ron and Hagrid telling Harry how every Slytherin was dark, evil and nothing else than Death Eater in training, it is quite possible that he wouldn't protest to being in Slytherin as feverishly as he had been in canon. Slytherins are abmbitious and Dumbles didn't want Harry ambitious or independent. And he most certainly didn't want his living weapon to know the darker aspects of magic that could "taint" him.

And about the weapon comment, I know it is cliche but I believe that Dumbles treated Harry as magical variation of fire-and-forget missile. He firmly believed in prophecy and from him not teaching Harry any really useful magic or anything to fight Voldemort. He didn't teach him ANYTHING period. I think he believed that the "Prophecy Magic" will find a way for Harry to vanquish Voldemort all on it's own.

I suspect that he could also release Sirius from Azkaban, since as a head of Wizengamot and a person of really great clout and influence I have no doubt he could push for a trial under Veritaserum which would prove Sirius' innocence.

He knew Sirius well and if he really was as naive and good hearted as he looks, he would at least have some doubts of the man's guilt. Hello? Guy freakin' DISOWNED by his family for NOT practicing darker magics and becoming a picture-perfect member of GRYFFINDOR suddenly aiding something he spent whole life running from? Even if he was "wracked by grief" too much to care, person of Dumbles' intelligence would be too bothered by the question marks all around this case.

As for his other maniplations, not involving the BWL, I think that he slowly but firmly worked to dilute potential in wizards and witches he trained to provide Voldie with less viable recruits. Of course it went hand-in-hand with Ministry's heavy handed control policy, steadily banning or at least heavily restricting usage of any mre powerful magic skill that could make wizards too independent of their government.

-rant mode off-

Yeah... Man, I really needeed that. Propably becasue it has been simmering inside me ever since 5-th book. And I am not even too much of a HP fan, just a casual reader.

 

[Israfel]

Ugh yah I completely agree with you Fosfor, I was actually planning a rant about good old Dumbledore in my rant section so that might pop up there in the next few days. Anyway, Dumbledore, I believe, is an incredibly powerful wizard, a master manipulator, a master legilemens (they mention several times in the books that 'Harry felt, when he looked into the Headmaster's eyes, as if his thoughts were being read' I think that's a pretty blatant sign of legilemancy), but he is also an extremely old man. I believe that while he is defintely a puppetmaster of the highest order that those slips that he does make, such as trusting Snape, are because he's been playing God for so long that I think that, in some small part of his mind, even he's come to believe that he is truly omniscient as many student believe and that this belief that nothing will ever do anything outside of what he intends it to do is what has caused some of his oversights on several things. I also most certainly believe that he's had a hand in Harry's life since day one and over the years he's slowly manipulated Harry into being exactly what he wanted him to be. I don't think it's quite as overt as some authors claim such as those stories that have Ron and Hermione turning out to be Dumbledore's spys and not really liking him at all, I think that's just the author trying to find an easy way to get rid of Ron and Hermione. His manipulations go much deeper than that, one of the fics that best represents what I'm trying to talk about is the story "Allusions of Power" by ReflectionsOfReality, it's been abandoned for quite some time now but what is posted is still quite amazing. I believe that Dumbledore's manipulations go so deep as to be ingrained in others' personalities, a little legilemancy, some selective obliviation, and voila a perfect puppet hanging from the strings of your tennis shoes. Dumbledore is much, much more than he seems. h43r:

 

[Fosfor]

Heh. Yeah, I agree. About Allusions of Power, I hadn't read it, but if you really want to see how a PROPER manipulator/crafty gaenous Dubles should be written as, try IP82's fanfics on fanfiction.net, mainly his "Potter's Resistance 1: Breaking Ties". It shows BRILLIANT portrayal of Dumbledore and really realistic, independent Harry that takes matters into his own hand shortly after Sirius' death. Really decent read.

 

[Israfel]

Already read it, but yah it's definitely one of the best manipulator!Dumbledore's I've ever seen as well as being an incredible fic on it's own as well. And I was referencing that other fic for manipulator!Dumbledore as well but mostly to show what I meant about Dumbledore manipulating everyone around Harry's emotions, feelings, and memories. But to anyone else, I'd highly recommend "Potter's Resistance 1: Breaking Ties", it's worth the read.

 

[thecodthemullet]

i think most of us prefer ruthless dumbles to a sap for one reason. we would like to at least think that the man was competant. if all the problems harry has had are a result of stupity than the wizarding world's champion is completely and utterly incompetant. and that has much further implications than his just being a manipulative old sod.

jay (just my 2 cents)

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

Ruthless would be hte logical choice. But if you are honest, we *know* that dumbledore is a *good guy* in the books, at least in rowling's point of view. But still, ruthless is what he should be were rowling logical.

 

[thecodthemullet]

logical :blink: rowling :blink:
this from someone who has quite literally left holes in her world large enough to resink the titanic

jay (who's only a bit peeved honest ) <_<

 

[raedric]

Purely naive, for almost the same reason Hawk made him ruthless.

He has seen two dark lords, probably as evil as evil can get. Because of that, he wants to believe in the inherent goodness in others, maybe to forget the darkness of his past.

Which is a point I wanted to elaborate on. Why is it Dumbledore fought two dark lords in the past, yet an extreme lack of bad things happen to him? Maybe to a couple of people he knew, but it took voldy until the sixth book to attempt to even kill him. I bet he was a coward when he was younger! Instead of fighting dark lords, he cries in a corner and hexes them when theyre off guard. Must be it.

 

[Revanant Dragoon]

Eh, I'd go ruthless. However I believe that he was trying to look out for Harry in at least sending him to the Dursleys.

Think about it, Voldy is definitely the type of villain that will do everything he can to destroy everything that the hero holds dear. Therefore, by having him grow up in the Dursley's household, Dumbledore's making damn sure that Harry relies on no one but himself. He'll mourn if he loses someone, sure, but it won't break him. Or at least, that's the plan.

Yeah, I could see Dumbledore deliberately leaving Sirius in Azkaban for one reason: he'll, paradoxically, be safer there. However, I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore didn't know about Sirius. You have to remember that everyone was convinced that Sirius was the Potters' Secret-Keeper. Combined with the display with Peter after the Potter's betrayal and the fact that he RAN AWAY after going to Godric's Hollow instead of swinging by Headquarters for the half-second neccessary to tell them what happened. Of course he could have his doubts about Sirius's guilt--but what else could explain the way everything happened?

But he definitely had Sirius locked up in Grimmauld's Place because of that. The man was trapising across the world without a care, then all of a sudden he's gotta go into hiding because, ya know, he's really high up on Voldy's hitlist. :sweat:

He kept Sirius locked up so that nothing would happen to Harry, seeing how close the two of them had become. I mean, seriously, if there was a chance that he'd be recognized in London send him onto the Continent! Even it the Death Eaters knew about his Animagus form, that knowledge would likely have to be kept in the Inner Circle to prevent the risk of leaks: if it became public knowledge that the Ministry was wrong about something as big as Sirius Black's innocence, who was said to be Voldemort's right hand, then they might grow suspicious of other things that the Ministry is claiming. And they sure as hell wouldn't tell their allies about anything more than they absolutely needed to know.

But I don't think that Harry's some kind of "fire and forget weapon." Any trainer would be viewed as someone Harry could rely on and could trust. They would be a crutch. Therefore Dumbledore would have to hope that Harry trained himself. Why else would he be so supportive of the DA? There's no way he didn't know about it, but why risk allowing Voldemort's number one target to be sent out of the castle where he's the safest? Because it meant that he was doing everything he could to learn to defend himself.

[/ramble]

So my vote is he's ruthless and hates it.

 

[Wonderbee31]

Ruthless.

I think Dumbledore has just gotten it into his head that he's the greatest wizard of his time, and is willing to go to whatever lengths there are to make it such.

 

[kinoth]

I would love to vote ruthless, but unfortunately I somehow doubt that JKR had the forethought to actually ascribe motivation to any of her characters. Canon Dumbledore seems to be a doddering, half-senile, incredibly optimistic moron with occasional flashes of what may have been a sharper, ruthless, dangerous wizard.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

Both. Manipulative and naive, at the same time.

Did he make Harry's upbrining as close to that of Tom Riddle as he could, in order to absolve himself of guilt in the creation of Lord Voldemort by proving that turning dark under immense pressure is a personal choice, or perhaps in order to make Harry turn Dark, providing him with an excuse to get rid of a possible threat to his own position once Voldie is pushing up the dasies?

I've seen this in a lot of stories and comments, and it's pure fanon. The home life thing... I dunno, but I'm talking about Dumbledore's 'guilt in helping to create Voldemort.'

Dumbledore didn't create Voldemort, nor really have any hand in it. In fact, he tried to stop Tom from walking that path. But the kid was already an evil psycho before the old man ever even met him for the first time, evidenced by his torture, and complete lack of concern over it, of his fellow orphans. It just got worse over the years, in spite of everything (whether that was a lot or a little isn't really known) Dumbles did to stop it.

The idea makes for a great manipulative Dumbledore background, but canonically it holds no water.

There are plenty of other things that can be attributed to him that make him seem manipulative, but Voldemort being Voldemort just isn't one of them.

 

[Typhonis]

Hubris , I do believe is his problem. Read this easay and well it does make sense.

http://www.redhen-publications.com/Dumbledore.html

 

[zeebee1]

If Dumbledore is ruthless, he's a ruthless idiot. If he wanted to make Harry into an invincible weapon he definetly failed at every oppotunity. It seemed more like he was trying to force Harry into living a normal life, limiting Harry's own magical development.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

There is two main possibilities that while far fetched, are usually forgetten about:

1: Dumbledore has made some so called light ritual that would make him lose his magic if he doesn't give second chances or such thing. This ritual could be easily the equivalent to some dark ones, but instead of sacrifcate sanity, he does his psosibility of action.

2: He is under Mind-numbing potion, courtesy of Snape or another of Vodlemort's agent.

Of course, it can also be what rowling's tainted vision of a wizard should be.

 

[H-Man]

Something people may forget about the stuff on Sirius et al.

He's a Legilimens. He can read your mind by staring at your eyes.

Don't you think he'd know Sirius is innocent by using it on him?

Then again, maybe he did hate Sirius for ruining his chances with Lupin.

 

[Moshulel]

Ruthless has my vote.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Besides one interesting thing about the prophecy:

"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

Isn't it interesting the way it's formulated? Life implies death... if either of the subjects of the prophecy would have died by the hand of the other the other would live and thus subject to death. :huh.:

 

[SotF]

Another interesting solution to the prophecy would be that it goes for the Demona/MacBeth thing, both Harry and Voldie are immortal until one kills the other and Dumbledore wanted to ensure the continued existance of the Wizarding world as it is...

Makes an interesting way to end things. Dumbledore manipulating things to prevent there being two immortal lords ruling the world in what would basically amount to an eternal cold war.

 

[nuclear death frog]

Personal opinion: I have never bought either the "Evil Dumbledore" or the "Manipulative Dumbledore" theories.

 

[SotF]

I started buying into it somewhat after the prophecy, Dumbledore seems to have played a hand in just about everything in the wizarding world that effects Harry.

He also HAD to have known about Harry being in the cupboard if nother else and did nothing about it.

As a side note, I'm wondering what happened between book 1 and 4 to change Fudges opinion of Dumbeldore. There are several mentions that Fudge pesters Dumbledore for advice early on and then Fudge (at least) does a 180.

 

[zeebee1]

If Dumbledore did anything in regards to the Dursleys it would most likely result with Harry being taken away from the blood wards. Also, the Dursleys weren't just for the blood wards, they were a place to hide. If Harry lived somewhere else he would be found. The only way to keep him out of the clutches of Death Eaters was to either have him hidden, or under the protection of one of his most loyal followers. So it was either the Dursleys, or convincing one of his associates to adopt Haryy. Dumbledore didn't have anyone he could trust that had enough time to raise a kid, and extra protections would have to be put in place as everyone would know where he is. It was a pretty good plan, as HArry was never kidnapped.

 

[ttestagr]

Fudge and Dumbledore seemed to have their first falling out in book 3, when they disagreed on bringing dementors to the school. There was also Sirius' escape at the end. It is also not out of the realm of possibility that there was a little bit of conflict about Hagrid in Book 2, with him being arrested, imprisoned, and later freed on information that Dumbledore would have brought to Fudge.

Also, they may not have agreed on the Triwizard Tournament. I can't remember if Dumbledore was for or against it.

 

[snthsnth]

Ruthless gets my vote. You can't live as an active participant in two wars without seeing that some people are evil selfish bastards. He therefore actively ignores the bad in people, unless it is thrust into his face.

"One must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

Lol, you need to live before you can die, Voldie lived (both figureatively and literally) before the prophecy or Harry, so only Voldie can die.

You now know how the story ends. Please move along. :snigger: