Harry Potter Ruthless bastard or Naive sap?
- Thread starter Hawk
- Start date
My Interpretation is pretty similar to some already discussed, and mentioned in part by DrT in Re-Ordered on ficwad.
Dumbledore wants either a mutal take out of Tom and Harry, have him killed by Voldemort so that he himself can kill Voldie.
Or, if Harry suvives the battle with Voldemort, having him as a replacement as the leader of the light and if Harry does not confirm to his standard having him killed.
Given the general feeling of Dumbledore the last most likely by Snape after the final battle.
If this is Dumbledores plan, the addition of Snape after he wounds himself on one Horcrux and considers himself dying before the end of the war then everything, even Snapes betrayel could be part of Dumbles plan.
We don't know if Phoenix are as light creatures as they have been portrayed, or if they simple dislike dark magics, since Dumbledore had Fawkes.
I also believe that Dumbledore bound or somehow repressed Harry's magic and either through the link with Voldemort, or the magical repression or his raising by the Dursely's Harry hides or is restricted in using his intelligence.
The Prophecy (if it is even real) said "the dark lord will mark him as his equal" not "when he himself was a baby" or "after he has trained a few decades and did a number of power boosting rituals"
That is why I think Harry recived a Riddles magical core after the killing curse struck, if he just recived little bits and pieces, why then is his wand the brother wand of Voldemort?
And Dumbledore, who knows he will one day die wanted to make sure Harry could not be a second riddle by lowering his power.
A few indicators of something beeing fishy are also there.
Harry's first corporal Patronus beeing able to take on hundred Dementors?
It seemed a little fishy.
And in the Graveyard, from what I understand Voldemort and Harry fought in some way.
And there are only three factors that I could come up with that could mean anything in this brotherwandduell. Magical Power, Skill, and knowledge with and about magic and willpower.
Voldemort is insane, at least partially, he survived 13 Years mostly on willpower, and he has not only graduated Hogwarts but also learned a lot obscure magic.
That leaves only magical power.
And if Dumbles wanted to avoid Harry having a big head, what better way (other then what he already admitted, i.e. sending him to be unloved) then to restrict his magic to the level of everyone else?
Dumbledore wants either a mutal take out of Tom and Harry, have him killed by Voldemort so that he himself can kill Voldie.
Or, if Harry suvives the battle with Voldemort, having him as a replacement as the leader of the light and if Harry does not confirm to his standard having him killed.
Given the general feeling of Dumbledore the last most likely by Snape after the final battle.
If this is Dumbledores plan, the addition of Snape after he wounds himself on one Horcrux and considers himself dying before the end of the war then everything, even Snapes betrayel could be part of Dumbles plan.
We don't know if Phoenix are as light creatures as they have been portrayed, or if they simple dislike dark magics, since Dumbledore had Fawkes.
I also believe that Dumbledore bound or somehow repressed Harry's magic and either through the link with Voldemort, or the magical repression or his raising by the Dursely's Harry hides or is restricted in using his intelligence.
The Prophecy (if it is even real) said "the dark lord will mark him as his equal" not "when he himself was a baby" or "after he has trained a few decades and did a number of power boosting rituals"
That is why I think Harry recived a Riddles magical core after the killing curse struck, if he just recived little bits and pieces, why then is his wand the brother wand of Voldemort?
And Dumbledore, who knows he will one day die wanted to make sure Harry could not be a second riddle by lowering his power.
A few indicators of something beeing fishy are also there.
Harry's first corporal Patronus beeing able to take on hundred Dementors?
It seemed a little fishy.
And in the Graveyard, from what I understand Voldemort and Harry fought in some way.
And there are only three factors that I could come up with that could mean anything in this brotherwandduell. Magical Power, Skill, and knowledge with and about magic and willpower.
Voldemort is insane, at least partially, he survived 13 Years mostly on willpower, and he has not only graduated Hogwarts but also learned a lot obscure magic.
That leaves only magical power.
And if Dumbles wanted to avoid Harry having a big head, what better way (other then what he already admitted, i.e. sending him to be unloved) then to restrict his magic to the level of everyone else?
naive gets my vote.
I hate to poop on your parade but at the end of the day, he is an old man. He has seen much in his life, and as such has become removed from the realities of warfare - he is a back-line general, who orders troops into battle.
At the end of the day, we have to remember that JK Rowling needed conflict in her books to sell it, therefore we have the end-of-year fight/cofrontation. If they weren't in, how many people would have even bothered reading CoS?
The sad fact is that all of JK's plot devices reflect badly upon Dumbledore, but only if you want ot read it in that way. I think people here and on the DLP forum would like to believe that Dumbledore is an eveil, manipulative person - this makes it easier to have an indie!Harry. And as we all know non!indie!Harry = sucky!Harry.
lol.
I hate to poop on your parade but at the end of the day, he is an old man. He has seen much in his life, and as such has become removed from the realities of warfare - he is a back-line general, who orders troops into battle.
At the end of the day, we have to remember that JK Rowling needed conflict in her books to sell it, therefore we have the end-of-year fight/cofrontation. If they weren't in, how many people would have even bothered reading CoS?
The sad fact is that all of JK's plot devices reflect badly upon Dumbledore, but only if you want ot read it in that way. I think people here and on the DLP forum would like to believe that Dumbledore is an eveil, manipulative person - this makes it easier to have an indie!Harry. And as we all know non!indie!Harry = sucky!Harry.
lol.
CaptainG said:
naive gets my vote.
I hate to poop on your parade but at the end of the day, he is an old man. He has seen much in his life, and as such has become removed from the realities of warfare - he is a back-line general, who orders troops into battle.
At the end of the day, we have to remember that JK Rowling needed conflict in her books to sell it, therefore we have the end-of-year fight/cofrontation. If they weren't in, how many people would have even bothered reading CoS?
The sad fact is that all of JK's plot devices reflect badly upon Dumbledore, but only if you want ot read it in that way. I think people here and on the DLP forum would like to believe that Dumbledore is an eveil, manipulative person - this makes it easier to have an indie!Harry. And as we all know non!indie!Harry = sucky!Harry.
lol.
I hate to poop on your parade but at the end of the day, he is an old man. He has seen much in his life, and as such has become removed from the realities of warfare - he is a back-line general, who orders troops into battle.
At the end of the day, we have to remember that JK Rowling needed conflict in her books to sell it, therefore we have the end-of-year fight/cofrontation. If they weren't in, how many people would have even bothered reading CoS?
The sad fact is that all of JK's plot devices reflect badly upon Dumbledore, but only if you want ot read it in that way. I think people here and on the DLP forum would like to believe that Dumbledore is an eveil, manipulative person - this makes it easier to have an indie!Harry. And as we all know non!indie!Harry = sucky!Harry.
lol.
Well, as this is topic is revived anyway...
I voted naive, simply because I don't believe Dumbledore is competent enough to be any sort of mastermind.
He, like ALL HP wizards/witches, is a idiot. Just because they're stupid as a pile of bricks doesn't mean they can't function properly, as shown with most of the wizard society. It works, albeit crappily, but the 'Wizarding World' functions, even though it shouldn't (sort of like certain places in real life these days).
I voted naive, simply because I don't believe Dumbledore is competent enough to be any sort of mastermind.
He, like ALL HP wizards/witches, is a idiot. Just because they're stupid as a pile of bricks doesn't mean they can't function properly, as shown with most of the wizard society. It works, albeit crappily, but the 'Wizarding World' functions, even though it shouldn't (sort of like certain places in real life these days).
Ruthless as hell. He's been playing puppet master behind the scenes for too long not to develop a very thick skin. Look all the way back to the incident with the Marauders and Snape back in their sixth year. Careless prank or not at best Sirius should have been expelled, probably locked up for attempted murder, and Lupin would have probably been expelled or killed despite the fact he was an innocent used as a weapon. Instead of coming down on those responsible he sends them off with little more than a detention and tells Snape to keep his fat mouth shut.
Basic common sense would suggest the right and moral thing to do would be to report the incident, accept getting fired and perhaps shipped off to Azkaban for his unwitting part in the affair by letting an undisclosed werewolf attend classes without warning the student population to be careful. Instead he pretty much tosses Snape off to the proverbial wolves to save himself, Sirius, and Lupin.
I think it's all too likely his own death at Snape's hands was one more play by Dumbledore himself. If for no other reason that JKR actually took the time to tell Alan Rickman what will happen with Snape in the 7th book, something she's done with nobody else. Sounds like some kind of reassurance the character he's help bring to life won't get too bad of a drubbing to me. Snape will most likely die at the end, I'm certain, but I think he'll be revealed as a deeper cover mole for the Order in the end.
I think the way the stupid prophecy reads Harry will die killing Tom. THat's the kind of noble sentimentalist crap JKR seems to be leaning toward. Trace it all back you'll keep finding the old man running things. The only naieve thing about him is the assumption he can control every variable. And even then the old man might have been right.
Basic common sense would suggest the right and moral thing to do would be to report the incident, accept getting fired and perhaps shipped off to Azkaban for his unwitting part in the affair by letting an undisclosed werewolf attend classes without warning the student population to be careful. Instead he pretty much tosses Snape off to the proverbial wolves to save himself, Sirius, and Lupin.
I think it's all too likely his own death at Snape's hands was one more play by Dumbledore himself. If for no other reason that JKR actually took the time to tell Alan Rickman what will happen with Snape in the 7th book, something she's done with nobody else. Sounds like some kind of reassurance the character he's help bring to life won't get too bad of a drubbing to me. Snape will most likely die at the end, I'm certain, but I think he'll be revealed as a deeper cover mole for the Order in the end.
I think the way the stupid prophecy reads Harry will die killing Tom. THat's the kind of noble sentimentalist crap JKR seems to be leaning toward. Trace it all back you'll keep finding the old man running things. The only naieve thing about him is the assumption he can control every variable. And even then the old man might have been right.
Those choices are a both too extreme. There is nothing in canon to supports a coldly calculating ruthless!Dumbledore, and certainly not with the malice to "repeat" some sort of Tom Riddle-like environment for Harry. On the other hand, he couldn't have been overwhelming naive either, as some have already argued. However, just because he's not as naive as the OP postulates doesn't mean he's not plenty optimistic or incompetent. One of the main reasons that makes the coldly manipulative Dumbledore improbable is how quickly he was sidestepped and politically marginalized in OotP once it became convenient for the Minister to do so. It makes is rather clear that he's at best riding on past successes and doesn't have all that much political skill or clout at the moment. In fact, the only things that were incontrovertibly proven were his magical power and dueling skill.
Let's review a few canonical facts. He's famous for taking down one dark lord over half a century ago. "Surviving" the other dark lord doesn't appear to be much except perhaps proving his dueling skill--something much more specialized than leadership ability or competence in anything else, especially given that (a) he was mostly in Hogwarts at the time, which is canonically almost a fortress, and (b) the actual Order of the Phoenix doesn't appear to do all that much beyond (perhaps) being a general kind of political opposition in the Ministry. This gives us at least two more possibilities:
-- He was competent if incurably optimistic in the past, but age has caught up with him, leaving only the incurable optimism. He's plenty old even for a wizard.
-- He was never particularly competent in the first place besides in academia and dueling, and his having an extensive political career at all is due to him bringing down Grindewald.
That's a possible interpretation, although in the sense Voldemort "survived." Speaking of which, it is an assumption (the most natural and plausible one, but still an assumption) that "the other" in "neither can live while the other survives" refers to one of {HP,Voldemort}. It's consistent with "the other" being, for example Ginny.
Let's review a few canonical facts. He's famous for taking down one dark lord over half a century ago. "Surviving" the other dark lord doesn't appear to be much except perhaps proving his dueling skill--something much more specialized than leadership ability or competence in anything else, especially given that (a) he was mostly in Hogwarts at the time, which is canonically almost a fortress, and (b) the actual Order of the Phoenix doesn't appear to do all that much beyond (perhaps) being a general kind of political opposition in the Ministry. This gives us at least two more possibilities:
-- He was competent if incurably optimistic in the past, but age has caught up with him, leaving only the incurable optimism. He's plenty old even for a wizard.
-- He was never particularly competent in the first place besides in academia and dueling, and his having an extensive political career at all is due to him bringing down Grindewald.
Typhonis said:
Unless Potter has fulfilled the prophecy already. Voldemort was dead for a few years ...it never said anything about him coming back to life.
These are definitely convincing arguments in favor of 'ruthlessness'. However his death scene in HBP can only be accounted for by 'naivete'. Hubris would also explain this, but unfortunately would count for both options.
I'm voting for 'naive', but would like to propose an alternative explanation: 'vindictive senility'.
I'm voting for 'naive', but would like to propose an alternative explanation: 'vindictive senility'.
It may be that JKR is going to go for some kind of scence-fictioney ending, where Harry is merged with Riddle, creating a new character, Tom Potter, or Lord VoldiePot? :lol:
Still, the idea of Dubledore being ruthless is nice at time, but with HBP, it just seems like he was an old man that let his press get to be so much that he couldn't let it down, even if that meant letting Harry down instead.
Still, the idea of Dubledore being ruthless is nice at time, but with HBP, it just seems like he was an old man that let his press get to be so much that he couldn't let it down, even if that meant letting Harry down instead.
I don't view him as either for several reasons. The first of which is that he never attempted to turn Harry into any sort of weapon under his control despite obvious ability to do so, the second is that he was smart enough to form an organization to fight Voldemort before the Aurors did, the third is that Rowling simply doesn't seem to have created a series where he would be either way.
And I seriously doubt Rowling would create an ending like that, it simply doesn't fit the genre in my opinion.
And I seriously doubt Rowling would create an ending like that, it simply doesn't fit the genre in my opinion.
I honestly do not see why anyone would consider Dumbledore either na?ve or ruthless, just like I don't see what all those "mistakes in regards to Harry" are.
He, in his capacity as head of the wizengamoth, sees the worst kind of human cruelty. That is a fairly efficient na?vity-killer (assuming he still was na?ve by the time he got that position, which I highly doubt). But in the end he must see guilt proven before he can judge. That is not some rose-tinted glass he is looking through: it's the foundation of any constitutional state.
Harry's upbringing was far from ideal, but it's only an assumption that Dumbledore had any choice in the matter. After all: Dumbledore, while influential, is not in charge of the placement of magical orphans (as far as we know a deatheater made the final call). Furthermore, while "bloodwards" and "staying free of the pressures of fame" are the only reasons canon gives us for harry's placement with the Dursleys, it would be too simply to think that those are the only ones. Don't forget to take into consideration, that at that time noone knew how Harry had survived, or what the longterm repercussions of being hit with the killing curse would be (it was an unprecedented occurrence). The influence these two unknowns had on Harry's placement haven't been stated, but I do not doubt that Dumbledore (and others in the ministry) took them into consideration.
As such, I don't think Harry was placed with the Dursley out of cruelty, although Dumbledore may have underestimated their hatred of magic.
By the way: the notion that living with the Dursleys was simular to Riddles stay in an orphanage is preposterus; Tom grew up without personal attention in an environment where love could not be found, while Harry received a lot of personal attention and witnessed love every day. Both situations result in damaged kids, but the kind of damage done is entirely different; Tom would consider love (and indeed all emotions) worthless, while Harry would crave affection.
He, in his capacity as head of the wizengamoth, sees the worst kind of human cruelty. That is a fairly efficient na?vity-killer (assuming he still was na?ve by the time he got that position, which I highly doubt). But in the end he must see guilt proven before he can judge. That is not some rose-tinted glass he is looking through: it's the foundation of any constitutional state.
Harry's upbringing was far from ideal, but it's only an assumption that Dumbledore had any choice in the matter. After all: Dumbledore, while influential, is not in charge of the placement of magical orphans (as far as we know a deatheater made the final call). Furthermore, while "bloodwards" and "staying free of the pressures of fame" are the only reasons canon gives us for harry's placement with the Dursleys, it would be too simply to think that those are the only ones. Don't forget to take into consideration, that at that time noone knew how Harry had survived, or what the longterm repercussions of being hit with the killing curse would be (it was an unprecedented occurrence). The influence these two unknowns had on Harry's placement haven't been stated, but I do not doubt that Dumbledore (and others in the ministry) took them into consideration.
As such, I don't think Harry was placed with the Dursley out of cruelty, although Dumbledore may have underestimated their hatred of magic.
By the way: the notion that living with the Dursleys was simular to Riddles stay in an orphanage is preposterus; Tom grew up without personal attention in an environment where love could not be found, while Harry received a lot of personal attention and witnessed love every day. Both situations result in damaged kids, but the kind of damage done is entirely different; Tom would consider love (and indeed all emotions) worthless, while Harry would crave affection.
mathilda_brenner said:
Harry's upbringing was far from ideal, but it's only an assumption that Dumbledore had any choice in the matter.
That said, I agree that neither option really fits. Its more he's an old man trying his damnedest to do what's right, or at least that's how I see it. But he definitely overestimated the Dursley's vehemence towards magic-though I think that he knew Harry would be an outcast in the house (see my last post for reasons why).
By the way: the notion that living with the Dursleys was simular to Riddles stay in an orphanage is preposterus; Tom grew up without personal attention in an environment where love could not be found, while Harry received a lot of personal attention and witnessed love every day. Both situations result in damaged kids, but the kind of damage done is entirely different; Tom would consider love (and indeed all emotions) worthless, while Harry would crave affection.
Dumbledore isn't either. He was a leader who had hard choices to make, and for the most part made the correct ones. Sending Harry to live with the Dursleys? Right choice considering that not long after Harry's move, the Lestranges led the attack on the Longbottoms to try to find out about Voldemort (if Harry wasn't behind unbreakable defenses, its obvious that he would have been the one attacked.) As for keeping him there once he reached Hogwarts, same deal considering that Voldemort became active again his first year.
On the other hand, you have Snape. We don't know the full story behind him yet though. Dumbledore trusted him unconditionally, and Harry assumed it was because of Snape pleading remorse for killing his parents. Dumbledore told Harry that Snape was, but he didn't confirm that was the reason he trusted him. And lets face it, traitor to Dumbledore or not, Snape has been utterly useless in the role of Voldemort's spy. The biggest achievement he had was claiming to give the information that led to Vance's death, something we don't know enough about to draw conclusions (especially since Amelia Bones was killed during the same time frame and nearly the same area.)
On the other hand, you have Snape. We don't know the full story behind him yet though. Dumbledore trusted him unconditionally, and Harry assumed it was because of Snape pleading remorse for killing his parents. Dumbledore told Harry that Snape was, but he didn't confirm that was the reason he trusted him. And lets face it, traitor to Dumbledore or not, Snape has been utterly useless in the role of Voldemort's spy. The biggest achievement he had was claiming to give the information that led to Vance's death, something we don't know enough about to draw conclusions (especially since Amelia Bones was killed during the same time frame and nearly the same area.)
As much as I have seen and read in the books, hindsight is 20/20 so I cast my vote for ruthless. Looking back at even the first book, the acceptance letter was addressed to the cupboard under the stairs, so that brings some MAJOR warning bells at the beginning. He, as the headmaster, must have had to screen the acceptance letters, or at least see where they were delivered. Second, the people who met harry in the first place, ergo Hagrid. You would think one of the less intimidating professors would be sent to talk to the Dursleys, but he had to send the half-giant. Could be to inspire the fear of the Creator into them, but even that shows he KNEW that an eleven year old was living under the bloody stairs. Not even the IRS would leave a child like that. Most likely, with the way that Vernon and his horse faced idiot of a wife think of magic, even the thought of such, would send them into a rage and start beating on a kid. With the wards on the house, I'm sure that the MoM could slip in a monitoring charm or something to keep track of the wizarding world's savior.
I would go on, but that would create a rant several pages in length, so I will leave it at that.
I would go on, but that would create a rant several pages in length, so I will leave it at that.