Nasuverse Sakura Venting

[zeebee1]

Many people deserve things. Many people don't get it. Sakura is a prime example. She's a victim. And not all victims are rewarded for their suffering.

 

[Lord of Bones]

So Sakura deserves a chance at life at the expense of possibly everyone else?

 

[trevelyan1983]

^<a href='http://nrvnqsr.us.to/showthread.php/143-Blades-Under-A-Crimson-Moon' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Proof</a>

I have never seen anyone cockblocked as hard as Mike cockblocks Rider.

Maybe Rider deserves some love, because she was so nice and so mistreated and blah blah Lolis blah blah Perseus.

 

[Cherry_lover]

We all know the actual quality of a fic doesn't matter to you as long as Sakura gets a good end.

That's not remotely true, actually.

And, I don't care what you think, because I know that you're a total asshole and a troll.

What is more, you'd rather see a good fic get ruined by deus ex machina to provide her with one and screw everyone else.

No, I'd rather see her not get thoroughly fucked over in practically every single fucking fic written, as opposed to you who just wants Rin to continue to be ignorant just so she can be happy at the expense of her little sister. Which, honestly, I just cannot accept. Why the fuck should she get to remain happy just because she's too fucking retarded to notice that her sister's life sucks, and too much of a bitch to think that, before she takes the only guy who makes Sakura smile to London with her, she should perhaps check up on her properly first?

And, it does not need a Deus Ex Machina to save her. Magic is broad enough that, with sufficient thought, there must surely exist ways to get rid of Zouken.

So... fuck you.

And fuck you too.

if you don't like them then don't go trolling them because not everybody is a Sakura-obsessed fanperson like you are and most of us would not care about a character that has no relevance in the current storyline(in the case of a fic)

But she's Rin's sister, and Shirou's friend. She does matter, because she's suffering a slow, agonising death and they're doing nothing about it because they're too fucking retarded to even notice.

But, anyway, I don't "troll" stories just because they ignore Sakura, I only post in such stories either to suggest that Sakura be involved (when it's plausible that she could be, or would make sense for her to be), or to point out flaws in the idea. If there is a perfectly canonically valid story which happens to ignore Sakura, I will just not read it.

If you believe otherwise, then please point out where I have posted in a story anything along the lines of "this ignores Sakura, so it sucks" (and, BTW, "your characterisation of Sakura is crap" does not count, because that's a perfectly valid criticism of the fic). I have once gone on a rant about Sakura being ignored, but that was in the fanfic contest thread, because not one fic out of the whole fucking lot actually even involved her.

And, yeah, I guess it is true that I sometimes support less well-written fics just because they involve Sakura, but that's because the amount of fanfic that doesn't treat her like total shit is so low that I have to take what I can get. Even if they're not a great writer, I don't want to discourage the few people who can actually be bothered to take account of her situation and actually deal with it.

It's not fair that her living would result in countless deaths?

But Shirou does not know this. If you're making a judgement based on what was the "right thing to do", you can only judge Shirou on what he knew, and based on what he knew killing Sakura was the wrong thing to do.

I know it's not her fault but guess what? it doesn't matter, the entire point is Sakura+living=potentially catastrophic massacre brought about by all of human evilbeing put in her.

Sorry, but that never happened, so it's not a valid argument. Sakura did not kill the whole of humanity, and thus on that basis, saving her would be a better end.

Many people deserve things. Many people don't get it. Sakura is a prime example. She's a victim. And not all victims are rewarded for their suffering.

Except that, in HF, she does get what she deserves. It just happens that it comes at the expense of a bunch of innocent people.

You cannot argue that she does not deserve that ending, even if the people who died to obtain it also deserve not to have died.

I have never seen anyone cockblocked as hard as Mike cockblocks Rider.

Maybe Rider deserves some love, because she was so nice and so mistreated and blah blah Lolis blah blah Perseus.

I don't disagree that Rider deserves a good ending (which BTW, she only gets in HF...), but there's no way she can realistically be paired with Shirou. She cares too much about Sakura's feelings for that and, besides, the only way she can remain after the war is as Sakura's servant.

 

[Wilder]

Mike, you took my statement out of context and seemed to have glossed over it. When did I say Sakura would with 100% certainty kill everyone if she lives? I said she could potentially bring into being a creature capable of slaughtering a massive chunk of humanity.

Here's the basic premise, stripped of characters or prior already known backstory.
You have a person, (s)he is the host of all human evil, you have two choices in this case, either 1) nip the problem in the bud the only way possible way, killing him/her before (s)he goes eldritch horror. The other option, 2), is to not kill him/her, and try to somehow find a cure, putting countless at risk of victim going cthulu on everything.

That's the long and short of it, regardless of Sakura's tragic backstory, saving her requires Deus Ex Machina^2 to pull of successfully, and that's just to get Angra out.

Saving Sakura is simply unfeasable in almost every situation, saving her puts too many at risk to be fair.

Now you'll say 'she doesn't deserve it!' as always, that she's a lovely beacon of pure pureness that is held by them evil Matous and it's up to Sir Shirou of the Many Blades to save her! That she deserves her good end.

Guess what? tough shit, Sakura's life is no more valuable than anyone else's, lives she risks by being alive with our good friend Angra Mainyu. Do I like it? no, but Sakura's life shouldn't be of more value than many hundreds of thousands of people, no matter how tragic her tale.

MoS Shirou realises this and does what's needed, even if he doesn't want to.

Ugh, I hate ranting...especially bout Sakura, I like her, but she ain't the second coming of Jesus in importance.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Mike, you took my statement out of context and seemed to have glossed over it. When did I say Sakura would with 100% certainty kill everyone if she lives? I said she could potentially bring into being a creature capable of slaughtering a massive chunk of humanity.

But Shirou at that point doesn't even know that that's a possibility. Kotomine is very careful not to inform him of that, because it would ruin his plans.

You have a person, (s)he is the host of all human evil, you have two choices in this case, either 1) nip the problem in the bud the only way possible way, killing him/her before (s)he goes eldritch horror. The other option, 2), is to not kill him/her, and try to somehow find a cure, putting countless at risk of victim going cthulu on everything.

Sorry, but I do not accept killing someone because they have the potential to kill others.

There are many stories which run on that aspect (protecting the girl who hosts a cosmic horror from the people who want to kill her to ensure their safety), and in virtually all such cases the "good guys" are the ones wo are protecting said girl. She does not deserve to die, and there is no certainty that there is not another way.

Allowing the murder of innocent people based on what they might do is a very dangerous idea, because it allows you to justify virtually anything on the basis of "but they're a threat to my vision of the world", or similar. In fact, that form of thinking is the very root of authoritarianism, because it implies subordinating the rights and freedoms of people because you think they are a danger. In fact, your reasoning is pretty much exactly Bush's reasoning for Guantanemo Bay, and indeed for the Iraq War. As far as he was concerned, those people in Guantanemo might be terrorists, and thus should be locked up and tortured because it's too dangerous not to.

It's never "too dangerous" not to respect people's freedoms, especially when it comes to the right to life. If you know she's going to kill people, or she is in the process of doing so, then perhaps killing her is justified, but killing her because she might kill others is not. She is a human being, just like they are, and you cannot simply say "one life is less valuable than hundreds", because human lives are not merely statistics.

That's the long and short of it, regardless of Sakura's tragic backstory, saving her requires Deus Ex Machina^2 to pull of successfully, and that's just to get Angra out.

The ending of HF is perfectly logical.

And, further, Shirou does not say "I will not kill Sakura" at that point, he just agrees to give her a chance to be saved. Why should she not be given that chance?

Saving Sakura is simply unfeasable in almost every situation, saving her puts too many at risk to be fair.

Now you'll say 'she doesn't deserve it!' as always, that she's a lovely beacon of pure pureness that is held by them evil Matous and it's up to Sir Shirou of the Many Blades to save her! That she deserves her good end.

Well, she fucking well does.

Also, you're assuming that MoS Shirou is somehow "guarenteed" to win, which is quite patently an unfair assumption to make if you're assuming that HF Shirou isn't. Just because HF is complete enough to have "bad ends" and MoS isn't, that doesn't somehow make MoS Shirou certain to succeed.

He has no servant, and no knowledge of his powers. How the hell is he supposed to win the war and save the world. And, if he fails, then the result of failure in HF is no worse than the result of failure in MoS, which is millions of people dying. So, therefore, the only question is which route gives him more chance of living. And, I personally would say that the route where he's allied to Rin, Ilya and Sakura and, eventually, will have Rider's help gives him more chance of success than one where he's trying to win the Grail War all on his own.

Guess what? tough shit, Sakura's life is no more valuable than anyone else's, lives she risks by being alive with our good friend Angra Mainyu.

But she deserves a chance to live a life. At least those people have had a life to live. She never has, and yet you're saying that Shirou should treat her as if she were not human, just like Zouken did.

Do I like it? no, but Sakura's life shouldn't be of more value than many hundreds of thousands of people, no matter how tragic her tale.

But she didn't kill hundreds of thousands of people.

MoS Shirou realises this and does what's needed, even if he doesn't want to.

MoS Shirou doesn't know any of this....

Ugh, I hate ranting...especially bout Sakura, I like her, but she ain't the second coming of Jesus in importance.

So, you like her, but you think it's perfectly OK for her to get thoroughly screwed over in every damn timeline, and even think that it's actively wrong for her to get one good ending?

That doesn't sound much like "liking her" to me....

 

[Hawk]

Sorry, but I do not accept killing someone because they have the potential to kill others.

There is a huge difference between the reasons a person could have the potential to kill someone. Time travel plot with Harry Potter coming back in time to kill Voldemort, well if Voldemort is only ten years old, that killing would be quite morally ambiguous. Killing Sakura once it is known how much she has been manipulated by Zokuen and being infested is quite different than a ten year old Tom Riddle. The reason is that she is guarantied to lose control and at a certain point you can't do anything to stop it. With what you said about the terrorist, someone who might be a terrorist is different than a person who is corrupted/controlled/whateveryouwanttocallit by pure evil who will end up losing control. One is a possibly and one is a measure of time until it happens. If this problem was found earlier when other peoples life are not in the process of getting killed, it would be stupid to kill Sakura. Once the shadow starts to appear at all though, killing her becomes morally sound.

Honestly the entire argument just ends up being when Shirou starts to figure out and solve the problem and when he figured out in HF, it was already shown she was killing people. I'm not saying he should have killed her in that route, but I am saying that people have a fair reason to think he should have. Mind, being pissed at Rin for not figuring this out sooner is very understandable.

Also don't strawman this argument with the Bush wars or whatever the hell one wants to call them.

 

[lask]

There are moralities of scale, to be honest, and any sane risk/reward analysis is going to say that the many outweight the few, and that the few outwieght the one. Sakura is the one who threatens the many, simply by being alive. The moral calculus of the situation does not come down on her side.

 

[Cherry_lover]

@Smile: But, again, Shirou does not know that Sakura is the shadow (or, even, that the shadow is killing people). If he had, then it does indeed become a lot harder to justify not killing her (I personally would say that he needs to resolve the situation ASAP, although I would at least try to find another option, even if the likelihood of Sakura surviving is low, and I would at least have the decency to explain things to her).

As far as he is concerned, at that point in time, all there is is the possibility that Sakura will go insane and kill people. In no way is it a "certainty" (at least in his mind), and even if it were he still felt that he could kill her later, before she hurt anyone else.

The second choice is another matter, perhaps, but it's notable that, from that point, Sakura does not actually kill anyone else (but for Zouken, Kotomine and Shinji, all of whom thoroughly deserve it) and, further, attempting to kill Sakura there is quite explicitly shown not to be the right option (because it gets Shirou killed and likely results in Sakura turning irredeemably dark). I can accept the argument that killing Sakura the second time around would be the "moral" thing to do, but Shirou is human. Killing someone you love that deeply is hard enough even when they deserve to die (or are suffering enough to want it), let alone when they really don't. For Shirou, in that situation (the second time he tries to kill her, I mean), even though he knew that killing her was the "right" thing to do, he simply could not do it, because she deserves better than that and he cares too much for her to just kill her so casually. It's called being human, and having human emotions, and I doubt that many people here would have acted any differently if they were actually there.

And, also, why would killing Voldemort as a ten-year-old be wrong, by your logic? Him becoming like that is inevitable unless you change something, just as Sakura killing people was. The only difference is that he becomes like that by choice, whereas Sakura is forced into that situation through no fault of her own.

As for Bush, I'm using him here because the arguments being thrown around for killing Sakura are precisely the ones used to justify many of his policies (i.e. "it's better to remove the freedoms of hundreds of possibly innocent people than to risk the lives of hundreds of others from a poorly-defined threat that they might pose").

@lask: And, you could make the same argument about Bush's actions in Guantanemo, and the actions of pretty much every brutal dictator that ever existed, at least from their viewpoint. Human beings are not statistics, you cannot compare lives in that way. For instance, if there was a choice between killing Sakura and killing Zouken, Shinji and Kotomine, I would go for the second every time, even though your logic indicates that killing Sakura would be the "correct" option.

It's easy to criticise Shirou when we have perfect knowledge and know how it eventually turned out, but too many people forget that he did not have that. The decision to end the life of another is one that should be taken with great caution, and MoS Shirou did not do that. He just jumped in there and killed Sakura at the first sign of danger.

Just compare him to Kiritsugu, for instance. He was quite happy to kill hundreds of people in the quest for world peace. Which would be fine, perhaps, if he attained it, but in the end he didn't. If his mistakes affect him, then fine, but because of his nature any mistake he makes is paid for in the lives of innocent people, and to me that is not a choice any person has the right to make.

 

[Hawk]

@Smile: But, again, Shirou does not know that Sakura is the shadow.

For Shirou not knowing Sakura is the shadow, well it seems we are in agreement. Considering you agree that killing Sakura during the second time is understandable, and I agree that Shirou didn't know enough to know the truth of the matter so he shouldn't have killed Sakura.

And, also, why would killing Voldemort as a ten-year-old be wrong, by your logic? Him becoming like that is inevitable unless you change something, just as Sakura killing people was. The only difference is that he becomes like that by choice, whereas Sakura is forced into that situation through no fault of her own.

With Voldermort, you have to think a little before you think my logic values the two the same. If Harry had no possibly choice but to, A) Kill or B.) Not Kill, then yes he should pick A. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was just saying if there are options to make Tom a better person and the fact he can't kill people nor does he at that age, Harry killing Tom at the age of ten is stupid. Help the kid to be a better person or do anything really. That is what I was saying with it depends when Shirou finds out Sakura=Shadow. If it is before all the bad stuff starts to happen and there is possibility to fix, killing her is as stupid as killing ten year old Tom. If he finds Sakura=Shadow as late as he did normally, it is as morally sound as killing 25 year old Tom.

Also pulling up emotions card, this is why I said I don't have a strong opinion on his actions once he knew Sakura=Shadow. She was a loved one and I can understand the reasons for killing her or not killing her. I most likely would have attempted to save her since I would value her life more than others, but I can see why other people would kill her.

 

[Garlak]

... I think people need to realize something very simple: Mike doesn't think about Sakura.

He feels.

Heaven's Feel is an emotionally powerful route. I guess something in that route and Sakura's portrayal in it just.. clicked for Mike.


When someone holds a belief so close to their center, you're not going to convince them with logic.

Anyway, if I wanted to save Sakura... I'd bring up New Powers As The Plot Demands. Just like Nasu does. He's a big fan of writing down technical, byzantine rules that would set the fandom aflame over interpreting them... rules which he uses as a rough guideline. Face it he likes Hero Is As Powerful As He Needs To Be.

So, stick the damn Rulebreaker into Sakura and have that magically work out. It broke her connection to Angra Mainyu in canon. Have it break connection to the worms and Angra Mainyu here.

Deus ex Machina? Maybe. Deal with it. B)

Breaks Nasu's patterns? Shit no.

You think it makes for a boring story? Well go fuck yourself. :lol:

Have Sakura's rescue be a sort of background event. Important, yeah, but doesn't get much screen time. Then tell the story about something else. Maybe Gilgamesh's fixed his Vimana, mostly, and people freak out over it. Or just "Suddenly, Dead Apostles! Hundreds of them." Whatever.




Anyway, my thoughts on Heaven's Feel:

It's emotionally powerful, like I said. It has some awesome moments, bringing us Nine Bullet Revolver and Sparks Liner High. But I just don't like it much. The way the Shadow just appeared and started inflicting Worf barraged on Heroic Spirits and offing or corrupting them like Red Shirts.. meh, stretched my bounds of belief.

I'd just prefer to see something else in it's place. No silly horrible torture for a girl. Zouken's hanging on to see a Grail, the Matou family is losing it's magic.. but he doesn't infest a little girl with worms and torture her horribly. That just kind of struck me as absurd.

So, Sakura is just a somewhat shy girl, pressured to carry on the Matou magecraft legacy. Shinji is a bit bitter about it and probably gives her some shit for it, but nothing over-the-top like rape for fuck's sake.

But then you have to find another route...

 

[Cherry_lover]

For Shirou not knowing Sakura is the shadow, well it seems we are in agreement. Considering you agree that killing Sakura during the second time is understandable, and I agree that Shirou didn't know enough to know the truth of the matter so he shouldn't have killed Sakura.

So, what were we arguing about, then?

With Voldermort, you have to think a little before you think my logic values the two the same. If Harry had no possibly choice but to, A) Kill or B.) Not Kill, then yes he should pick A. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was just saying if there are options to make Tom a better person and the fact he can't kill people nor does he at that age, Harry killing Tom at the age of ten is stupid. Help the kid to be a better person or do anything really.

Well, I guess that's true.

If he finds Sakura=Shadow as late as he did normally, it is as morally sound as killing 25 year old Tom.

No it's not. Voldemort is acting intentionally, and any consequences for his actions were brought upon himself, so there is nothing wrong with killing him as soon as he becomes a potential danger. Sakura is entirely innocent, and thus killing her should be an absolute last resort.

Also pulling up emotions card, this is why I said I don't have a strong opinion on his actions once he knew Sakura=Shadow. She was a loved one and I can understand the reasons for killing her or not killing her.

Fair enough.

I most likely would have attempted to save her since I would value her life more than others, but I can see why other people would kill her.

Well, I can see why some people would argue that her death is better for the world at large, but it's not the "good end" to HF because it totally sucks for the protagonists. Further, they cannot argue that Shirou should have killed Sakura the second time around because we know that that would have ended badly. You cannot apply the fact that we have full information selectively.

Also, the fact that those people died does not mean that Sakura does not deserve her happy ending, because it was not her fault that they died. I can accept that people don't like the deaths of those innocents, but killing Sakura solves nothing. It merely adds another innocent to the list of pointless deaths. Sakura does deserve the happy ending she got from HF True, even if the people who died as a result did not deserve to die in order for her to obtain it.

Anyway, if I wanted to save Sakura... I'd bring up New Powers As The Plot Demands. Just like Nasu does. He's a big fan of writing down technical, byzantine rules that would set the fandom aflame over interpreting them... rules which he uses as a rough guideline. Face it he likes Hero Is As Powerful As He Needs To Be.

So, stick the damn Rulebreaker into Sakura and have that magically work out. It broke her connection to Angra Mainyu in canon. Have it break connection to the worms and Angra Mainyu here.

Deus ex Machina? Maybe. Deal with it. cool.gif

Breaks Nasu's patterns? Shit no.

You think it makes for a boring story? Well go fuck yourself. laugh.gif

Have Sakura's rescue be a sort of background event. Important, yeah, but doesn't get much screen time. Then tell the story about something else. Maybe Gilgamesh's fixed his Vimana, mostly, and people freak out over it. Or just "Suddenly, Dead Apostles! Hundreds of them." Whatever.

Yeah, this.

I've never claimed that Sakura getting saved has to be an important part of the plot, I just want it to happen. Hell, it doesn't even have to be explained, it could have just happened at some point in the past. Because, whilst we don't know of any ways to save Sakura for certain, I'm sure that somewhere in the Nasuverse they do exist.

What irritates me is how most writers treat her as if she just doesn't matter, whereas in reality Rin and Shirou would not abandon her so easily. Obviously, I'd like to see Sakura have an important role in the fic too, but I'm perfectly willing to read a fic in which she doesn't if it's interesting enough. But, fics in which Rin just fucks off to London with Shirou and then promptly forgets about her just make me want to take a very rusty sword, shove it up her ass and then leave her to bleed to death, and thus I can't read them because they just make me rage.

I'd just prefer to see something else in it's place. No silly horrible torture for a girl. Zouken's hanging on to see a Grail, the Matou family is losing it's magic.. but he doesn't infest a little girl with worms and torture her horribly. That just kind of struck me as absurd.

So, Sakura is just a somewhat shy girl, pressured to carry on the Matou magecraft legacy. Shinji is a bit bitter about it and probably gives her some shit for it, but nothing over-the-top like rape for fuck's sake.

Well, if he did that, then Sakura wouldn't be Sakura any more, because the torture Zouken put her through changed her personality drastically.

BTW, if you want something like that, the manga seems like it might be for you....

 

[ringlhach]

Last time I checked, Shadow!Sakura wasn't just a weapon that they pointed at people. You can play the insanity card if you like, but when she comes to, she gets Zouken to try to kill her. Zouken.

Of course, not long after that, she snaps entirely and becomes Dark!Sakura, but that's really only a testament to her emotional state at the time and is neither here nor there.

 

[Wilder]

'Kay, Garlack I have to ask...Are you me? cause that whole thing is like 90% similar to my opinion on the matter, albeit better articulated, although I believe a setting's rules should be stuck to...barring one or two exceptions if needed.

Although I do feel Mike should cool his jets a little, if he doesn't like how a fanfic treats Sakura, I think he should just close it or write his own fanfic. Hell, if written well and done smartly, I'm open to Sakura getting saved even if she doesn't get a 'best end'.

That and I firmly believe plot>pairings unless it's a romance

EDIT: Also, Mike do I apologise if I seem insulting, you are able to back your arguements, so I can respect your opinion on Sakura. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I can respect it, although you are a little aggressive concerning it.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Last time I checked, Shadow!Sakura wasn't just a weapon that they pointed at people.

Sakura is no more responsible for her actions than I am responsible for something I do whilst sleep-walking or in my dreams.

You can play the insanity card if you like, but when she comes to, she gets Zouken to try to kill her. Zouken.

What other option did she have? The only way she could end it all was to stand up to him and refuse to fight. Then, he would be forced to either release her or to kill her.

although I believe a setting's rules should be stuck to...barring one or two exceptions if needed.

So do I. However, there is nothing in the rules of the Nasuverse which states "there is only one way to save Sakura, and that is to play HF". Making stuff up does not go against the rules of the Nasuverse, because we do not have a complete understanding of those rules.

Although I do feel Mike should cool his jets a little, if he doesn't like how a fanfic treats Sakura, I think he should just close it or write his own fanfic.

Which is pretty much what I do, at least if there is no objective problem with the fic.

If Sakura is horribly characterised, then I give feedback on it (and, don't claim that authors don't want said feedback, because in many cases they do), and similarly I give feedback if the fic does not make sense more generally, but that's the whole point of it. Further, I don't think an author should be able to deny people the right to post their opinion of a fic idea, so I take no notice of such statements. I don't see why authors should have the right to cover up opinions of their work just because they don't like them.

Hell, if written well and done smartly, I'm open to Sakura getting saved even if she doesn't get a 'best end'.

Eh? What do you mean?

EDIT: Also, Mike do I apologise if I seem insulting, you are able to back your arguements, so I can respect your opinion on Sakura. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I can respect it, although you are a little aggressive concerning it.

That's OK. I'm a naturally argumentative person, and I also tend to be quite forward with my opinions. Plus, ttestagr et al are seriously starting to piss me off with their constant assholery, so I'm on a rather short fuse with people on this forum ATM....

 

[Hawk]

So, what were we arguing about, then?

If he finds Sakura=Shadow as late as he did normally, it is as morally sound as killing 25 year old Tom.

No it's not. Voldemort is acting intentionally, and any consequences for his actions were brought upon himself, so there is nothing wrong with killing him as soon as he becomes a potential danger. Sakura is entirely innocent, and thus killing her should be an absolute last resort.

I just wanted to see what you thought of this overall. Too much flame wars between you and everyone else, and I am not one to agree with the popular opinion for the hell of of it. All I think is that you like Sakura a lot more than just about everyone else, well maybe a bit too much considering other parts of Fate/Stay are quite good but all personal opinions and whatnot. You do tend to get into flame wars very easily though and your points get lost.

On the subject of what I said with killing 25 year old Tom to Sakura, they are not as morally sound. Bit of me attempting to end the post as soon as possible since I should be doing something else but being irresponsible. I was saying that at that point in the story that killing her would be sound considering that is the only resort for Shirou given what he knew if he chose that option. I should have said both are entirely justifiable.

*Edit* I should also add that I felt up to the challenge for making this thread being someone other than flame wars by introducing real discussions. On the topic of the thread though, all discussions between us are kinda done now. We both understand each other and anything else comes down to personal morality.

 

[lask]

Last time I checked, Shadow!Sakura wasn't just a weapon that they pointed at people.

Sakura is no more responsible for her actions than I am responsible for something I do whilst sleep-walking or in my dreams.

You can play the insanity card if you like, but when she comes to, she gets Zouken to try to kill her. Zouken.

What other option did she have? The only way she could end it all was to stand up to him and refuse to fight. Then, he would be forced to either release her or to kill her.

That doesn't matter if you subscribe to some form of Consequentialism (though, of course, sane branches must accept that we always act with imperfect knowledge). Her innocent... it's almost irrelevent, to be honest.

 

[Wilder]

Of course, Mike, a writer who invites critique should expect it and you've a right to give it if asked.

And I meant that as long as the act of saving Sakura makes sense, I can believe it, setting's rules or no. I just want it believable is all, not a Deus Ex Machina.

 

[Cherry_lover]

That doesn't matter if you subscribe to some form of Consequentialism (though, of course, sane branches must accept that we always act with imperfect knowledge). Her innocent... it's almost irrelevent, to be honest.

And I don't, so....

Morality is not determined solely by the consequences of your actions. For one thing, your intent matters, and also, to me, killing an innocent person is worse than not killing them and allowing them to kill others, because you have no right to decide that that person's life is not worth saving. Killing someone to resolve the consequences of their own actions is OK, killing them to resolve the consequences of the actions of another is not, unless you have absolutely no other option.

I mean, by your logic, every single one of us is guilty of mass-murder, because we spend money on computers and the like whilst people in Africa starve to death.

 

[lask]

That doesn't matter if you subscribe to some form of Consequentialism (though, of course, sane branches must accept that we always act with imperfect knowledge). Her innocent... it's almost irrelevent, to be honest.

And I don't, so....

Morality is not determined solely by the consequences of your actions. For one thing, your intent matters, and also, to me, killing an innocent person is worse than not killing them and allowing them to kill others, because you have no right to decide that that person's life is not worth saving. Killing someone to resolve the consequences of their own actions is OK, killing them to resolve the consequences of the actions of another is not, unless you have absolutely no other option.

I mean, by your logic, every single one of us is guilty of mass-murder, because we spend money on computers and the like whilst people in Africa starve to death.

... You don't really understand the basic arguments of Utilitarianism, do you?

I'm done. You've just admitted you would willing choose an option you know will lead to more death and suffering to assuage your sense of self-worth, basicly. That to me is... evil. So yeah. I'm just done here.

 

[Cherry_lover]

... You don't really understand the basic arguments of Utilitarianism, do you?

Or, perhaps, I just don't agree with it....

I'm done. You've just admitted you would willing choose an option you know will lead to more death and suffering to assuage your sense of self-worth, basicly. That to me is... evil. So yeah. I'm just done here.

What, so not wanting to murder an innocent person in cold blood is evil, then? Or for having my own moral code that treats people as, you know, people, rather than statistics?

By your definition, then pretty much every comic-book hero is evil. Batman does not kill the Joker, even though he knows he will escape and harm people again, and therefore his unwillingness to kill (towards someone who arguably deserves to die, at that) is "evil" by your morality. Similarly, any God must also be evil, because they allow us to have free will even though that results in people dying. Hell, you are evil, unless of course you are currently living in a hut and posting on the internet through the power of psychic manipulation or something, because the money raised by selling your computer could instead save the lives of several people in Africa.

Don't try to force your bullshit "morality" on me, because it won't work. You might be happy living in a brutal dictatorship where the government controls every tiny bit of your life for "your own good" and executes anyone who rocks the boat to ensure the "happiness" of those who just meekly go along with it, but I am not, and if that makes me "evil" according to you, then I'm quite happy to be evil.

 

[ttestagr]

You know what the police do to crazy people who are actively threatening the lives of other people? They shoot them about fifty times until they are no longer a threat to other people. This is the right and proper thing to do, because who gives a shit if your crazy if you're killing fucking kids. Swat team sniper puts a bullet in your face.

Just like Sakura should have gotten when everyone found out she was the Shadow. Shirou? Heaven's Feel Shirou is directly responsible for hundreds of deaths because he did not take the shot. That is not a moral or good result.

But then again, one of the things that tends to get lost about Shirou in discussion is that he's an asshole by nature. Heaven's Feel and Archer just show it brought out pretty much completely. Which is why they're good.

 

[Cherry_lover]

You know what the police do to crazy people who are actively threatening the lives of other people?? They shoot them about fifty times until they are no longer a threat to other people.? This is the right and proper thing to do, because who gives a shit if your crazy if you're killing fucking kids.? Swat team sniper puts a bullet in your face.

Yes, if they're actively endangering those people at the time. If they are not an immediate danger then the police will make every effort to talk them down and end the whole thing without bloodshed. And, even if they do shoot them, they will still not actually necessarily do so to kill them, but rather to take them down without them harming anyone else. Shooting them to kill is most definitely a last-resort option, which is taken only if they are an imminent threat.

Sakura at that point was not an immediate danger, so there was no reason to kill her. If she was walking around as the shadow at the time, then fair enough, but as long as she is not killing her is not necessary.

Also, you're forgetting another thing here. This is how they act towards total strangers. If it was their own loved one who was going insane, I would imagine that they would be somewhat more reluctant....

Just like Sakura should have gotten when everyone found out she was the Shadow.á Shirou?á Heaven's Feel Shirou is directly responsible for hundreds of deaths because he did not take the shot.á That is not a moral or good result.

Except that, when Shirou found out that Sakura was the shadow, he resolved to do exactly that. Not being able to go through with it just shows that he is human after all, and not a simple killing machine.

But then again, one of the things that tends to get lost about Shirou in discussion is that he's an asshole by nature.á Heaven's Feel and Archer just show it brought out pretty much completely.á Which is why they're good.

Erm, what?

That's the biggest pile of total and utter crap I've ever heard in my entire life. Shirou is most definitely not an "asshole". Archer is totally broken by his attempts to live his life in a manner which no normal human could do, and HF Shirou is just acting as any realistic person would act in those circumstances.

To claim that he's an asshole for doing what 99.9% of the world's population would actually do in those circumstances is just plain ridiculous.

 

[ttestagr]

Funny. I'm sure you don't remember this gem from Shirou:

"Oh yeah, Shirou. It's about the archery club, but did you know that Mitsuzuri-san got injured?"
"Mitsuzuri? What? Did she get in a fight with someone again? Geez, she's almost a third year, so she should calm down a little.
àSo, how's the injury? Is it bad?"


"It's fine. It was a light sprain. It seems she was attacked by a molester on her way home.
She's fast, right? She ran away quickly, but injured herself when she fell over at the end."

"àI see. Thank God it was nothing serious. But a molester attacking herà he must be reckless or have discerning tastes.
Either way, he was a stupid molester. I thoughtà"


"You thought she knocked him out instead of running away, right?"
Fuji-Nee smiles.
Indeed, she knows Mitsuzuri Ayako well.

"Yeah. It's rare for her to run away.
Butà I see, even Mitsuzuri is weak against molesters. I guess that's good. It's impossible to teach her femininity unless something like this happens."
Approving, I eat the well-cooked rice.

There are others, but that is my favorite asshole Shirou moment. Mostly because of the following scene and Taiga's reaction to everyone else's reaction. Anyway, Shirou is snarky as hell and goes well into asshole territory quite a number of times.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Funny.á I'm sure you don't remember this gem from Shirou:

"Oh yeah, Shirou. It's about the archery club, but did you know that Mitsuzuri-san got injured?"
"Mitsuzuri? What? Did she get in a fight with someone again? Geez, she's almost a third year, so she should calm down a little.
àSo, how's the injury? Is it bad?"


"It's fine. It was a light sprain. It seems she was attacked by a molester on her way home.
She's fast, right? She ran away quickly, but injured herself when she fell over at the end."

"àI see. Thank God it was nothing serious. But a molester attacking herà he must be reckless or have discerning tastes.
Either way, he was a stupid molester. I thoughtà"


"You thought she knocked him out instead of running away, right?"
Fuji-Nee smiles.
Indeed, she knows Mitsuzuri Ayako well.

"Yeah. It's rare for her to run away.
Butà I see, even Mitsuzuri is weak against molesters. I guess that's good. It's impossible to teach her femininity unless something like this happens."
Approving, I eat the well-cooked rice.

There are others, but that is my favorite asshole Shirou moment. Mostly because of the following scene and Taiga's reaction to everyone else's reaction. Anyway, Shirou is snarky as hell and goes well into asshole territory quite a number of times.

Well, I will admit that that is rather assholeish, but it's one moment (and, notably, she was not seriously harmed). Shirou spends most of his life trying to save people, which is distinctly not an assholeish thing to do. And, for that matter, nor is being snarky.

And, no, HF Shirou does not count, because however "evil" you might think it is, refusing to kill an innocent girl who you care deeply for and who is utterly devoted to you is not assholeish. Indeed, if there is any version of Shirou who is an asshole it's MoS Shirou, for treating a girl who thinks so highly of him with such utter contempt.