Nasuverse Sakura Venting
- Thread starter Raven
- Start date
Despite what you think, Sakura isn't all that relevant to the events outside of Heaven's Feel. If you want to write a fic where they go back and fix things for her, fine, but not every fic needs that. You are also promoting people to write in bad ends for her in fics completely unrelated to her because you are making people hate her.
Note that the routes basically write her out for the most part once things get going. If you argue that she is, you might as well argue that Taiga is incredibly important to events because she was injured by Shinji in Fate and that would cause Shirou a bit of guilt (not really, since he did save her) or what have you. Something like that, only with characters randomly finding out stuff they didn't know for some reason. Instead of them finding out about it right after it happens.
Note that the routes basically write her out for the most part once things get going. If you argue that she is, you might as well argue that Taiga is incredibly important to events because she was injured by Shinji in Fate and that would cause Shirou a bit of guilt (not really, since he did save her) or what have you. Something like that, only with characters randomly finding out stuff they didn't know for some reason. Instead of them finding out about it right after it happens.
My biggest problem with Sakura, is that a happy end with her requires a damn lot of bad ends for everyone else. In Heaven's Feel every Servant but Rider, Illya, Shinji, and Ilya finish up with bad ends. Oh, and a good portion of the town is slaughtered as Shirou betrays himself and allows it to happen. Can't forget that.
Her situation is just fucked in ways that have terrible things happening to everyone else. While you can sympathize with her, the true good end to Heaven's Feel really does have to be Mind of Steel. Its the only one with potential to end well for most everybody, as long as Shirou gets past Kotomine's trolling and realizes that if Rin is willing to kill Sakura because she's a heretic, the mass slaughter of the Grail will have her trying to destroy it as well.
Her situation is just fucked in ways that have terrible things happening to everyone else. While you can sympathize with her, the true good end to Heaven's Feel really does have to be Mind of Steel. Its the only one with potential to end well for most everybody, as long as Shirou gets past Kotomine's trolling and realizes that if Rin is willing to kill Sakura because she's a heretic, the mass slaughter of the Grail will have her trying to destroy it as well.
Your second sentence makes no sense. And the rest? Well, it's not like HF involves any more bad ends than the other routes...other than the people dying due to the Shadow.
Mind of Steel is an awesome end, but it doesn't have what it takes to be a good end. A good end is the stereotypical save the day get the girl, which HF True is more like...other than the whole Shadow business. Which might be why it's the True End.
Now UBW, that right there is definitely a good end. Saber ups and decides to stay, lolwutok.
Anyways, Mind of Steel would probably be the realistic/practical end. That's what you should be doing. HF True is a big fat "Fuck You!" to reality and by the magic of plot and fiction, gets away with it.
Anyways, my biggest problem with Sakura is mike. Simply mike.
I like Sakura.
Mind of Steel is an awesome end, but it doesn't have what it takes to be a good end. A good end is the stereotypical save the day get the girl, which HF True is more like...other than the whole Shadow business. Which might be why it's the True End.
Now UBW, that right there is definitely a good end. Saber ups and decides to stay, lolwutok.
Anyways, Mind of Steel would probably be the realistic/practical end. That's what you should be doing. HF True is a big fat "Fuck You!" to reality and by the magic of plot and fiction, gets away with it.
Anyways, my biggest problem with Sakura is mike. Simply mike.
I like Sakura.
well in HF Shinji just dies, and it's a 'bad end' for Ilya-chan because she dies saving Shirou (IMHO she is the true heroine -referencing to heroic acts, not the female protagonist of the route- of HF), and while i'm mostly indifferent to Sakura, i like her, but if she ain't relevant to the plot of the story i'm reading at the moment i don't care what is happening to her.
@ttestagr: her canon end costed a lot, but an end with her could be achieved in a simpler manner, just like the good end for everyone else (maybe with the exception of the servants who need a grail war to appear in Shirou's life, then the servants good end means a bad end for certain irrelevant people)
@ttestagr: her canon end costed a lot, but an end with her could be achieved in a simpler manner, just like the good end for everyone else (maybe with the exception of the servants who need a grail war to appear in Shirou's life, then the servants good end means a bad end for certain irrelevant people)
Typo on Illya being there twice e_e.
And no, Sakura getting a good end really isn't simple at all. Circumstances have to be set up where Zouken reveals himself and the situation brings up a chance for Sakura to pretty much tear out her own heart and survive. So far, that requires having most of the crest worm removed, Zouken being purified or otherwise removed from the situation as a person, and Sakura having enough healing to survive a gaping hole in her heart.
Hell, look at the one fic that does this scenario. They needed a majority of the Servants, Kirei, and Saber and Avalon. So a deus ex to have all the Servants necessary available and willing to help, Angra Mainyu having the possibility of being born or a great deal of misery all around to convince Kirei, and Saber being convinced that her path isn't the correct one so she sticks around instead of looking to save her country though any means possible.
And no, Sakura getting a good end really isn't simple at all. Circumstances have to be set up where Zouken reveals himself and the situation brings up a chance for Sakura to pretty much tear out her own heart and survive. So far, that requires having most of the crest worm removed, Zouken being purified or otherwise removed from the situation as a person, and Sakura having enough healing to survive a gaping hole in her heart.
Hell, look at the one fic that does this scenario. They needed a majority of the Servants, Kirei, and Saber and Avalon. So a deus ex to have all the Servants necessary available and willing to help, Angra Mainyu having the possibility of being born or a great deal of misery all around to convince Kirei, and Saber being convinced that her path isn't the correct one so she sticks around instead of looking to save her country though any means possible.
And in Fate and UBW True, everyone but Shirou, Rin and one of Ilya or Shinji get bad ends, so....
Which is not in any way Sakura's fault.
How the fuck is murdering an entirely innocent girl in cold blood after she's suffered her entire life with no chance at happiness a good ending?
No, that's not true, because Rin's reason for killing Sakura is different from Shirou's. Rin is killing her not because she'll kill people, but because it's the "true magus" thing to do. Once she's done that, she will undoubtedly go insane and seek the Grail.
Meanwhile, he's just totally pissed Ilya off, so she'll be after his blood, and further he has no servant and none of his abilities, so the only possible way he can win is by killing the masters (and even that seems pretty damn unlikely to me). Therefore, the end of that, assuming Shirou somehow finds a way to win and doesn't get trolled by Kotomine into releasing the Grail would have everyone else dead and Shirou totally broken.
Good end for the town, perhaps (if you ignore the fact that he has more chance of saving it in HF than he does in MoS). Good end for the characters, not a chance in hell.
No it's not. Based on what Shirou knew at the time, killing Sakura was not the right thing to do. Only someone as broken as Shirou would even consider it as an option.
You might claim that that was the "right" thing to do, but I bet you any money that, if I put everyone in this board in that situation (I mean literally, with Shirou's feelings), knowing what Shirou knew, you would not have even considered killing her. Plus, if he's going to let her die, he should at least have the decency to face what he's doing and go and talk to her in person, not to treat her as a disposable object to be thrown out. MoS Shirou's attitude to Sakura is just like Zouken's. He sees her as a problem to be disposed of rather than as a human being, and to me that is just total assholery.
Which is a bad end why? He thoroughly earned his death there. If anything, Fate is worse, because he was killed randomly just because Ilya "felt like it".
Much less so than UBW is.
Well, exactly, and indeed that is what I would expect from most of the fics I'm talking about, because they're not post-HF.
I think it's a bit unreasonable to assume that there is only one possible way to save her. She could transfer bodies, for instance (if Shirou can do it, why not Sakura?), someone could use healing magic on her, someone could act to give her control of the worms, she could run into Shiki (or Zouken could) and so on. It's not easy, no, but it's doable.
But, regardless, this attitude is what pisses me off with people like you. Just because saving her is a bit of a pain, you seem to think that it's better that she be left to be slowly tortured to death just so the characters that you like more can live happily in blissful ignorance. After what she's suffered through, I find it absolutely ridiculous that you think it is fair for her to suffer even more just so they can be happy.
That is only one fic. There are many others which save her more easily (some more plausibly than others).
But, anyway, I don't care how easy it is. I simply cannot enjoy a fic where she gets ignored and left to die, because I just find it immensely unfair that she should suffer a slow, agonising death having never even been given a chance at life just because the writer can't be assed to save her and just wants Rin and Shirou to live in in blissful ignorance with Rin forgetting she ever even had a little sister (which in itself I cannot believe would happen). The only thing worse than that are those sixth war fics which use her as a villain, usually totally unsympathetically (although, it's strange how those fics seem not to have any problem with getting rid of Zouken...).
Which is not in any way Sakura's fault.
How the fuck is murdering an entirely innocent girl in cold blood after she's suffered her entire life with no chance at happiness a good ending?
No, that's not true, because Rin's reason for killing Sakura is different from Shirou's. Rin is killing her not because she'll kill people, but because it's the "true magus" thing to do. Once she's done that, she will undoubtedly go insane and seek the Grail.
Meanwhile, he's just totally pissed Ilya off, so she'll be after his blood, and further he has no servant and none of his abilities, so the only possible way he can win is by killing the masters (and even that seems pretty damn unlikely to me). Therefore, the end of that, assuming Shirou somehow finds a way to win and doesn't get trolled by Kotomine into releasing the Grail would have everyone else dead and Shirou totally broken.
Good end for the town, perhaps (if you ignore the fact that he has more chance of saving it in HF than he does in MoS). Good end for the characters, not a chance in hell.
No it's not. Based on what Shirou knew at the time, killing Sakura was not the right thing to do. Only someone as broken as Shirou would even consider it as an option.
You might claim that that was the "right" thing to do, but I bet you any money that, if I put everyone in this board in that situation (I mean literally, with Shirou's feelings), knowing what Shirou knew, you would not have even considered killing her. Plus, if he's going to let her die, he should at least have the decency to face what he's doing and go and talk to her in person, not to treat her as a disposable object to be thrown out. MoS Shirou's attitude to Sakura is just like Zouken's. He sees her as a problem to be disposed of rather than as a human being, and to me that is just total assholery.
Which is a bad end why? He thoroughly earned his death there. If anything, Fate is worse, because he was killed randomly just because Ilya "felt like it".
Much less so than UBW is.
Well, exactly, and indeed that is what I would expect from most of the fics I'm talking about, because they're not post-HF.
I think it's a bit unreasonable to assume that there is only one possible way to save her. She could transfer bodies, for instance (if Shirou can do it, why not Sakura?), someone could use healing magic on her, someone could act to give her control of the worms, she could run into Shiki (or Zouken could) and so on. It's not easy, no, but it's doable.
But, regardless, this attitude is what pisses me off with people like you. Just because saving her is a bit of a pain, you seem to think that it's better that she be left to be slowly tortured to death just so the characters that you like more can live happily in blissful ignorance. After what she's suffered through, I find it absolutely ridiculous that you think it is fair for her to suffer even more just so they can be happy.
That is only one fic. There are many others which save her more easily (some more plausibly than others).
But, anyway, I don't care how easy it is. I simply cannot enjoy a fic where she gets ignored and left to die, because I just find it immensely unfair that she should suffer a slow, agonising death having never even been given a chance at life just because the writer can't be assed to save her and just wants Rin and Shirou to live in in blissful ignorance with Rin forgetting she ever even had a little sister (which in itself I cannot believe would happen). The only thing worse than that are those sixth war fics which use her as a villain, usually totally unsympathetically (although, it's strange how those fics seem not to have any problem with getting rid of Zouken...).
Pretty much this.
Killing Zouken's nearly impossible. Yes, he'd probably totally rot away in about a hundred years or so, but he could always put his soul into Sakura via the worms. There's always that risk. Not to mention doing such a magical surgery would probably kill Sakura if she didn't have her Angry Manjew regeneration ability.
The events on their own were plausible, but they were heading up to Dues Ex Machina point to get them to that one point. Even though that point really wasn't the main point of the story, but they had to happen to get the character development to work. Which backfired on me when Archer and Rider started reacting like sodium and water.
Then there's the fact that any fic post HF would be sort of . . . boring. Unless you're doing Rin in London fighting Dead Apostles. Which eliminates Sakura all together.
Killing Zouken's nearly impossible. Yes, he'd probably totally rot away in about a hundred years or so, but he could always put his soul into Sakura via the worms. There's always that risk. Not to mention doing such a magical surgery would probably kill Sakura if she didn't have her Angry Manjew regeneration ability.
The events on their own were plausible, but they were heading up to Dues Ex Machina point to get them to that one point. Even though that point really wasn't the main point of the story, but they had to happen to get the character development to work. Which backfired on me when Archer and Rider started reacting like sodium and water.
Then there's the fact that any fic post HF would be sort of . . . boring. Unless you're doing Rin in London fighting Dead Apostles. Which eliminates Sakura all together.
Yeah, but Mike...
No one with any taste cares about what you think. We all know the actual quality of a fic doesn't matter to you as long as Sakura gets a good end. What is more, you'd rather see a good fic get ruined by deus ex machina to provide her with one and screw everyone else. So... fuck you.
No one with any taste cares about what you think. We all know the actual quality of a fic doesn't matter to you as long as Sakura gets a good end. What is more, you'd rather see a good fic get ruined by deus ex machina to provide her with one and screw everyone else. So... fuck you.
^<a href='http://nrvnqsr.us.to/showthread.php/143-Blades-Under-A-Crimson-Moon' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Proof</a>
and mike if you are going to quote something i said, can you at least do it litterally because looks weird.
i agree that the Ilya's UBW end was worse, and that Shinji had a 'good' end in that route (he wasn't killed), my argument was that he died and thus counted as a Shinji bad end (not that he doesn't deserved it)
because everyone else gets to live? and i wouldn't call it a 'good' end, just a 'true' end.
if you don't like them then don't go trolling them because not everybody is a Sakura-obsessed fanperson like you are and most of us would not care about a character that has no relevance in the current storyline(in the case of a fic)
because it took the third magic and a puppet body of Touko's to do it?
and mike if you are going to quote something i said, can you at least do it litterally because looks weird.
i agree that the Ilya's UBW end was worse, and that Shinji had a 'good' end in that route (he wasn't killed), my argument was that he died and thus counted as a Shinji bad end (not that he doesn't deserved it)
because everyone else gets to live? and i wouldn't call it a 'good' end, just a 'true' end.
if you don't like them then don't go trolling them because not everybody is a Sakura-obsessed fanperson like you are and most of us would not care about a character that has no relevance in the current storyline(in the case of a fic)
because it took the third magic and a puppet body of Touko's to do it?
Saving Sakura requires certain things to happen. First of all, someone has to get close enough to realize something is wrong. As she is antisocial, the only options are Shirou and Taiga. Taiga as a normal human being, is useless. Shirou, as a magus, does have potential.
However, the timing is important. If it happens outside of the Grail War, Shirou just doesn't have the tools to save her from Zouken. Period. And if it happens during the war, Zouken realizes that Shirou can be used to break her and manipulates her into releasing the shadow. Cue massive casualties of innocent families, women and children included as it eats the populace.
The only way around this is by deus ex machina, which tends towards crappy stories unless it is the entire basis of the story. I point towards Elf's fic, which I enjoyed even if I thought Archer in it wasn't enough of an asshole.
Hence, in the story F/SN sets up, Sakura either can't be saved, or does not deserve to be because it requires massive amounts of innocents getting massacred. Hence Mind of Steel being the Good End to Heaven's Feel and Shirou there being the most heroic in all the routes, with the possible exception of Continuation of Your Dream.
However, the timing is important. If it happens outside of the Grail War, Shirou just doesn't have the tools to save her from Zouken. Period. And if it happens during the war, Zouken realizes that Shirou can be used to break her and manipulates her into releasing the shadow. Cue massive casualties of innocent families, women and children included as it eats the populace.
The only way around this is by deus ex machina, which tends towards crappy stories unless it is the entire basis of the story. I point towards Elf's fic, which I enjoyed even if I thought Archer in it wasn't enough of an asshole.
Hence, in the story F/SN sets up, Sakura either can't be saved, or does not deserve to be because it requires massive amounts of innocents getting massacred. Hence Mind of Steel being the Good End to Heaven's Feel and Shirou there being the most heroic in all the routes, with the possible exception of Continuation of Your Dream.
Because he doesn't, that's why.
Shirou did not know that she was the shadow at that point. Further, he specifically states that, if she does go insane, he will have to kill her himself, to ensure that he is the only one who dies as a result. So, he clearly did not intend to let her kill people. He had no way of knowing that she was already doing so, in a way which he could not stop.
The second time around, you could perhaps argue otherwise (although she doesn't kill anyone who doesn't thoroughly deserve it from that point on), but we know that attempting to kill her at that point was a bad idea.
Given complete information, I would find it hard to argue against either following MoS or, at very least, taking urgent action to free Sakura even if it meant almost certain death for her (although even then I would at least have the decency to actually talk to her, and treat her like a person rather than merely the tool of some evil mastermind that needs to be disposed of ASAP), but Shirou doesn't have complete information. Based on what he knows, killing her is not justified, because you should not murder an innocent person based on speculation about what they might do. To allow that is to treat people as nothing more than numbers and to treat human life as unimportant.
This is not true, though. Saving her may be hard, but it is not impossible. There exist other powerful magi, and Rin herself could probably free Sakura with sufficient research and, if necessary, jewel usage. Hell, why not just transfer her soul to another body? Ilya does it with Shirou in Fate, and Shirou gets a new body in HF, too, so why not Sakura?
Sorry, but Sakura is not a fucking disposable toy to throw away because she's annoying you. She's a fucking human being. She does deserve to be saved. You can, perhaps, argue that the people she would kill deserve to be saved more, but Sakura herself definitely does deserve to be saved.
I do wonder how you intend to deal with this in your fic, though, since I don't see Caster seeing it that way even if Shirou might....
But it's not a "good end", though. It's a thoroughly shitty end. And, MoS Shirou is not a hero, because heroes save innocent people, not murder them in cold blood.
Sakura deserves better than that.
And how is it "fair" that Sakura should be the fall guy for Zouken's actions and Tokiomi's incompetence whilst her useless bitch sister and the asshole who she loved betray and murder her because she might hurt others, having miserably failed to help her when they perhaps could have?
Whatever you might say about MoS, it is certainly not fair. Sakura has suffered her entire life, and now she's being unceremonially killed (and, most likely, her body dumped somewhere without even the decency of a proper funeral or any kind of mourning) so that a bunch of people can continue living their comfortable lives and Rin can carry on being a magus without bothering to take any notice of the little sister she abandoned.
Shirou did not know that she was the shadow at that point. Further, he specifically states that, if she does go insane, he will have to kill her himself, to ensure that he is the only one who dies as a result. So, he clearly did not intend to let her kill people. He had no way of knowing that she was already doing so, in a way which he could not stop.
The second time around, you could perhaps argue otherwise (although she doesn't kill anyone who doesn't thoroughly deserve it from that point on), but we know that attempting to kill her at that point was a bad idea.
Given complete information, I would find it hard to argue against either following MoS or, at very least, taking urgent action to free Sakura even if it meant almost certain death for her (although even then I would at least have the decency to actually talk to her, and treat her like a person rather than merely the tool of some evil mastermind that needs to be disposed of ASAP), but Shirou doesn't have complete information. Based on what he knows, killing her is not justified, because you should not murder an innocent person based on speculation about what they might do. To allow that is to treat people as nothing more than numbers and to treat human life as unimportant.
This is not true, though. Saving her may be hard, but it is not impossible. There exist other powerful magi, and Rin herself could probably free Sakura with sufficient research and, if necessary, jewel usage. Hell, why not just transfer her soul to another body? Ilya does it with Shirou in Fate, and Shirou gets a new body in HF, too, so why not Sakura?
Sorry, but Sakura is not a fucking disposable toy to throw away because she's annoying you. She's a fucking human being. She does deserve to be saved. You can, perhaps, argue that the people she would kill deserve to be saved more, but Sakura herself definitely does deserve to be saved.
I do wonder how you intend to deal with this in your fic, though, since I don't see Caster seeing it that way even if Shirou might....
But it's not a "good end", though. It's a thoroughly shitty end. And, MoS Shirou is not a hero, because heroes save innocent people, not murder them in cold blood.
Sakura deserves better than that.
And how is it "fair" that Sakura should be the fall guy for Zouken's actions and Tokiomi's incompetence whilst her useless bitch sister and the asshole who she loved betray and murder her because she might hurt others, having miserably failed to help her when they perhaps could have?
Whatever you might say about MoS, it is certainly not fair. Sakura has suffered her entire life, and now she's being unceremonially killed (and, most likely, her body dumped somewhere without even the decency of a proper funeral or any kind of mourning) so that a bunch of people can continue living their comfortable lives and Rin can carry on being a magus without bothering to take any notice of the little sister she abandoned.
It's not fair that her living would result in countless deaths? I know it's not her fault but guess what? it doesn't matter, the entire point is Sakura+living=potentially catastrophic massacre brought about by all of human evilbeing put in her.
Is it fair? again no of course it's not, Sakura's life is shitty as fuck, is it the best route in terms of cost of lives, intellectually, yes.
Again whether Zouken is to BLAME is irrelevent, Sakura was a potential threat to potentially every human being because of ol' Angra. And just be clear, Zouken being the cause is irrelevent, what matters is Sakura being a huge threat BECAUSE of him, just saying Zouken is to blame does nothing.
Is it fair? again no of course it's not, Sakura's life is shitty as fuck, is it the best route in terms of cost of lives, intellectually, yes.
Again whether Zouken is to BLAME is irrelevent, Sakura was a potential threat to potentially every human being because of ol' Angra. And just be clear, Zouken being the cause is irrelevent, what matters is Sakura being a huge threat BECAUSE of him, just saying Zouken is to blame does nothing.
What is to say that either option is "fair"?
Sakura deserves a chance at life, and however much you might argue that it is the "right" decision (and, honestly, given perfect knowledge even I could not really argue that allowing the shadow to go on a rampage is acceptable, although personally I'd have at least tried to find a way to save her and stop the shadow before it killed anyone, even if it would likely just result in her ultimate death anyway) it does not in any way fit the definition of "fair", because fairness implies giving everyone an equal chance in life, and Sakura has not had that.
Sakura deserves a chance at life, and however much you might argue that it is the "right" decision (and, honestly, given perfect knowledge even I could not really argue that allowing the shadow to go on a rampage is acceptable, although personally I'd have at least tried to find a way to save her and stop the shadow before it killed anyone, even if it would likely just result in her ultimate death anyway) it does not in any way fit the definition of "fair", because fairness implies giving everyone an equal chance in life, and Sakura has not had that.