ttestagr said:
My biggest problem with Sakura, is that a happy end with her requires a damn lot of bad ends for everyone else. In Heaven's Feel every Servant but Rider, Illya, Shinji, and Ilya finish up with bad ends.
And in Fate and UBW True, everyone but Shirou, Rin and one of Ilya or Shinji get bad ends, so....
Oh, and a good portion of the town is slaughtered as Shirou betrays himself and allows it to happen. Can't forget that.
Which is not in any way Sakura's fault.
Her situation is just fucked in ways that have terrible things happening to everyone else. While you can sympathize with her, the true good end to Heaven's Feel really does have to be Mind of Steel.
How the fuck is murdering an entirely innocent girl in cold blood after she's suffered her entire life with no chance at happiness a
good ending?
Its the only one with potential to end well for most everybody, as long as Shirou gets past Kotomine's trolling and realizes that if Rin is willing to kill Sakura because she's a heretic, the mass slaughter of the Grail will have her trying to destroy it as well.
No, that's not true, because Rin's reason for killing Sakura is different from Shirou's. Rin is killing her not because she'll kill people, but because it's the "true magus" thing to do. Once she's done that, she will undoubtedly go insane and seek the Grail.
Meanwhile, he's just totally pissed Ilya off, so she'll be after his blood, and further he has
no servant and none of his abilities, so the only
possible way he can win is by killing the masters (and even that seems pretty damn unlikely to me). Therefore, the end of that,
assuming Shirou somehow finds a way to win and doesn't get trolled by Kotomine into releasing the Grail would have everyone else dead and Shirou totally broken.
Good end for the town, perhaps (if you ignore the fact that he has
more chance of saving it in HF than he does in MoS). Good end for the characters, not a chance in hell.
Avider said:
Anyways, Mind of Steel would probably be the realistic/practical end. That's what you should be doing.
No it's not. Based on what Shirou knew
at the time, killing Sakura was not the right thing to do. Only someone as broken as Shirou would even consider it as an
option.
You might claim that that was the "right" thing to do, but I bet you any money that, if I put everyone in this board in that situation (I mean literally, with Shirou's feelings), knowing what
Shirou knew, you would not have even
considered killing her. Plus, if he's going to let her die, he should at least have the decency to face what he's doing and go and talk to her in person, not to treat her as a disposable object to be thrown out. MoS Shirou's attitude to Sakura is just like Zouken's. He sees her as a problem to be disposed of rather than as a
human being, and to me that is just total assholery.
shioran toushin said:
well in HF Shinji just dies
Which is a bad end
why? He thoroughly
earned his death there. If anything, Fate is worse, because he was killed randomly just because Ilya "felt like it".
it's a 'bad end' for Ilya-chan because she dies saving Shirou
Much less so than UBW is.
@ttestagr: her canon end costed a lot, but an end with her could be achieved in a simpler manner, just like the good end for everyone else (maybe with the exception of the servants who need a grail war to appear in Shirou's life, then the servants good end means a bad end for certain irrelevant people)
Well, exactly, and indeed that is what I would expect from most of the fics I'm talking about, because they're not post-HF.
ttestagr said:
And no, Sakura getting a good end really isn't simple at all. Circumstances have to be set up where Zouken reveals himself and the situation brings up a chance for Sakura to pretty much tear out her own heart and survive. So far, that requires having most of the crest worm removed, Zouken being purified or otherwise removed from the situation as a person, and Sakura having enough healing to survive a gaping hole in her heart.
I think it's a bit unreasonable to assume that there is only one possible way to save her. She could transfer bodies, for instance (if Shirou can do it, why not Sakura?), someone could use healing magic on her, someone could act to give her control of the worms, she could run into Shiki (or Zouken could) and so on. It's not easy, no, but it's
doable.
But, regardless, this attitude is what pisses me off with people like you. Just because saving her is a bit of a pain, you seem to think that it's better that she be left to be slowly tortured to death just so the characters that you like more can live happily in blissful ignorance. After what she's suffered through, I find it absolutely
ridiculous that you think it is fair for her to suffer even more just so
they can be happy.
Hell, look at the one fic that does this scenario. They needed a majority of the Servants, Kirei, and Saber and Avalon. So a deus ex to have all the Servants necessary available and willing to help, Angra Mainyu having the possibility of being born or a great deal of misery all around to convince Kirei, and Saber being convinced that her path isn't the correct one so she sticks around instead of looking to save her country though any means possible.
That is only one fic. There are many others which save her more easily (some more plausibly than others).
But, anyway, I don't
care how easy it is. I simply cannot enjoy a fic where she gets ignored and left to die, because I just find it
immensely unfair that she should suffer a slow, agonising death having never even been given a
chance at life just because the writer can't be assed to save her and just wants Rin and Shirou to live in in blissful ignorance with Rin forgetting she ever even
had a little sister (which in itself I cannot believe would happen). The only thing
worse than that are those sixth war fics which use her as a
villain, usually totally unsympathetically (although, it's strange how
those fics seem not to have any problem with getting rid of Zouken...).