Nasuverse Sakura Venting
- Thread starter Raven
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Erm, in what way?
Well, except that she didn't "break" so much as just shut off her emotions to preserve her sanity. The fact that she was able to so easily revert to acting normal when Shirou was around, and even able to go so far as to disobey Zouken by refusing to fight in the war (and, yes, the game makes it quite clear that it was, to her, an act of disobedience, because she expected to be thrown to the worms for it) shows that she was not truly broken in the first place, because a broken person cannot spontaneously unbreak in that manner. Obviously, she's fucked up, but she's not thoroughly broken in the way that Zouken intended her to be, even without Shirou.
Of course, post-HF Normal, she does indeed break, because everyone has limits, and the events of HF coupled with the loss of Shirou (as a result of him trying to protect her from herself) took her well beyond that.
Well, except that she didn't "break" so much as just shut off her emotions to preserve her sanity. The fact that she was able to so easily revert to acting normal when Shirou was around, and even able to go so far as to disobey Zouken by refusing to fight in the war (and, yes, the game makes it quite clear that it was, to her, an act of disobedience, because she expected to be thrown to the worms for it) shows that she was not truly broken in the first place, because a broken person cannot spontaneously unbreak in that manner. Obviously, she's fucked up, but she's not thoroughly broken in the way that Zouken intended her to be, even without Shirou.
Of course, post-HF Normal, she does indeed break, because everyone has limits, and the events of HF coupled with the loss of Shirou (as a result of him trying to protect her from herself) took her well beyond that.
Not fully, it's not.
I guess it depends what you mean by "broken". To me, Sakura is not truly broken because she is easily able to revert to something resembling normal and, further, she still maintains the capacity to resist Zouken, even if she usually lacks the will to do so due to the extreme consequences of such an action. The ultimate point of his abuse (apart from steeling her body to act as a Grail) was to make her totally obedient to him, unable to even think of opposing him, and that did not work.
Except that being with Shirou actually makes her happy. The fact that she's capable of feeling such emotions shows that she's not broken to the extent that Zouken intended for her to be.
Also, what ttestagr said is not remotely true. Zouken intended for Sakura to break and become fully pliant and obedient to him, and without Shirou she was a lot closer to that (although she was not completely broken in the way he intended). However, what using Shirou did was give him an alternate way of breaking her.
I guess it depends what you mean by "broken". To me, Sakura is not truly broken because she is easily able to revert to something resembling normal and, further, she still maintains the capacity to resist Zouken, even if she usually lacks the will to do so due to the extreme consequences of such an action. The ultimate point of his abuse (apart from steeling her body to act as a Grail) was to make her totally obedient to him, unable to even think of opposing him, and that did not work.
Except that being with Shirou actually makes her happy. The fact that she's capable of feeling such emotions shows that she's not broken to the extent that Zouken intended for her to be.
Also, what ttestagr said is not remotely true. Zouken intended for Sakura to break and become fully pliant and obedient to him, and without Shirou she was a lot closer to that (although she was not completely broken in the way he intended). However, what using Shirou did was give him an alternate way of breaking her.
Ah, that'd be the difference, then; for me, "broken" refers to the ability to function "normally" in society without major issues, not that they can't get better. Sakura retains most of that, up until Zouken triggers what I read as a secondary personality (Shadow!Sakura), but the presense of a trigger and her <s>obsession with</s> focus on Shirou means that there was something wrong.
Well, Sakura does function (mostly) normally in society, but I will agree that she's definitely not "normal" (understandably...).
Like I said, it depends on what you mean by "broken". However, the point I was trying to make is that she never broke in the way Zouken intended for her to break. He wanted her to basically lose her mind entirely and just become an utterly obedient tool, with no thoughts or feelings of her own, whereas what she actually did was just to shut off her emotions and obey him without ever losing the capacity to refuse his orders.
Also, the shadow isn't a "secondary personality". It's Sakura's subconscious (which is something that everyone has) coupled with Angra Mainyu's power and influence.
Like I said, it depends on what you mean by "broken". However, the point I was trying to make is that she never broke in the way Zouken intended for her to break. He wanted her to basically lose her mind entirely and just become an utterly obedient tool, with no thoughts or feelings of her own, whereas what she actually did was just to shut off her emotions and obey him without ever losing the capacity to refuse his orders.
Also, the shadow isn't a "secondary personality". It's Sakura's subconscious (which is something that everyone has) coupled with Angra Mainyu's power and influence.
Sakura is totally broken from the start, if you want to be accurate about it. She is anti-social to the point that the only interaction she has outside of her abusive family is Shirou and Taiga.
This is not normal. It is also a problem for Zouken because she was broken in the wrong way for him to really use her.
This is not normal. It is also a problem for Zouken because she was broken in the wrong way for him to really use her.
Well, she's "broken" in that sense, I guess (although she's not quite as "anti-social" as you claim) but not "from the start". She ended up that way because she shut herself off in order to resist Zouken's abuse.
Yeah, I guess that's a fair statement. She didn't break how he wanted her to break, or as completely. Instead of becoming a mindless puppet like he wanted, she instead became an emotionless doll who nevertheless retained the capacity to feel and to act normally when the opportunity arose and, worse (for him), the capacity to resist him, even if she lacked the will to do so most of the time (for good reason).
Yeah, I guess that's a fair statement. She didn't break how he wanted her to break, or as completely. Instead of becoming a mindless puppet like he wanted, she instead became an emotionless doll who nevertheless retained the capacity to feel and to act normally when the opportunity arose and, worse (for him), the capacity to resist him, even if she lacked the will to do so most of the time (for good reason).
Holy shit, somebody actually answered my question. 
:lol:
Thanks Ragnarock.
I'd like answers from more people, though. Think of it as a poll.
Mike/Cherry Lover, what's your opinion on Shirou killing Alter!Saber? Namely where he beats her with Rider's help and is going to coup'de'grace her. Especially the thoughts going through Shirou's head.
Feel free to give your opinions on Shirou's thoughts/actions if he doesn't kill Saber.
:lol: Thanks Ragnarock.
I'd like answers from more people, though. Think of it as a poll.
Mike/Cherry Lover, what's your opinion on Shirou killing Alter!Saber? Namely where he beats her with Rider's help and is going to coup'de'grace her. Especially the thoughts going through Shirou's head.
Feel free to give your opinions on Shirou's thoughts/actions if he doesn't kill Saber.
It's the main reason Heaven's Feel is my least favorite route. Seriously, that was depressing as fuck, and it gets worse when you realize that Saber is, you know, actually there and not just a copy. Congrats, you just doomed Arturia to possible eternal corruption.
((Or not, I don't know for sure. Who really understands what the fuck was up with Angra Mainyu anyway... still totally depressing.))
((Or not, I don't know for sure. Who really understands what the fuck was up with Angra Mainyu anyway... still totally depressing.))
Well, it's not clear that Saber is actually permanently corrupted, although it is indeed possible. But, it's certainly no more possible than Sakura getting fucked over in Fate and UBW is, and Saber gets eternal life in Avalon in those two routes, so I don't see how Saber fans can really complain about it when Sakura gets shafted far worse in the other two routes.
Also, I don't think there was anything Shirou could do to save her. Certainly, if she is permanently corrupted, then I can't see how Rule Breaker could have altered that, any more than it can revert Sakura back to her original Tohsaka form (with black hair and Tohsaka magic).
Also, I don't think there was anything Shirou could do to save her. Certainly, if she is permanently corrupted, then I can't see how Rule Breaker could have altered that, any more than it can revert Sakura back to her original Tohsaka form (with black hair and Tohsaka magic).
?
I already said I find the scenario interesting. If its well written then yes, it would be interesting to read.
Also, I'll PM the troll just to find out if he's seriously planning to write this or not.
She was always rooting for him. Even before they fight she goes on saying that "if he doesnt defeat her they would all be screwed or something".
I agree with you. In my case, all the boring HF crap coupled with Saber's death made HF a very irritating route to play through <_<
But at least Last Episode was there to cheer me up
According to CM 3, all three route (Fate,UBW,HF) are canon, but choosing one automatically invalidates the other two. In your case, HF would be the canon route which means Fate and UBW are no longer canon therefore Sakura is not royally fucked over.
In my case, I prefer Fate as canon so HF is just a 'what-if' so Saber never gets corrupted and she gets to live in blissful eternity in Heaven.
Let's be fair here, you yourself said that you didn't find Saber's death that depressing so you can't exactly emphasize with what we feel. You only had to deal with Sakura's depressing ending, we had to deal with Saber's, Illya's and finally Sakura's once more. And if you didn't enjoy playing through HF (as was in my case) Saber's death will only hit you harder.
I already said I find the scenario interesting. If its well written then yes, it would be interesting to read.
Also, I'll PM the troll just to find out if he's seriously planning to write this or not.
She was always rooting for him. Even before they fight she goes on saying that "if he doesnt defeat her they would all be screwed or something".
I agree with you. In my case, all the boring HF crap coupled with Saber's death made HF a very irritating route to play through <_<
But at least Last Episode was there to cheer me up
According to CM 3, all three route (Fate,UBW,HF) are canon, but choosing one automatically invalidates the other two. In your case, HF would be the canon route which means Fate and UBW are no longer canon therefore Sakura is not royally fucked over.
In my case, I prefer Fate as canon so HF is just a 'what-if' so Saber never gets corrupted and she gets to live in blissful eternity in Heaven.
Let's be fair here, you yourself said that you didn't find Saber's death that depressing so you can't exactly emphasize with what we feel. You only had to deal with Sakura's depressing ending, we had to deal with Saber's, Illya's and finally Sakura's once more. And if you didn't enjoy playing through HF (as was in my case) Saber's death will only hit you harder.
Do I sympathize with Sakura? Certainly. But I don't think Fate/Stay Night should be completely centered around her. There's far too many other interesting/sympathetic characters to explore in just Fate, let alone Nasu. If FSN only gave us the Heaven's Feel route, I would have probably spent a day or two rather depressed and then moved on from the fandom.
If you die, then your soul just gets wiped and recycled anyway, so honestly I don't see how Saber's situation is worse, even if that is the case (which is highly debateable). Further, in the other two routes she gets eternal life in Avalon whilst Sakura gets (potentially) tortured to death and then wiped from existence, without even having the dignity of being remembered. So, I'd say Saber gets much better treatment than Sakura does, personally....
There's a difference between not being completely centred around her and ignoring her entirely. As much as ttestagr et al. would like you to think otherwise, I do not expect Sakura to be the centre of attention in every single fic. I just want her to be treated fairly, and not entitrely overlooked as she is in most, and I also want the characters to actually act in-character, which I don't think any post-UBW fic which ignores Sakura entirely is (Rin has softened a lot, and Shirou would ask her about her family, and once he found out the truth he would make it his personal mission to reconcile the sisters).
Well, for me personally, it's HF (and Sakura) that is the reason I'm in the fandom, along with the beginning of Fate/Zero (because reading that made me want to write a fanfic that actually gave Kariya a semi-good ending, and that's what led me to join Beast's Lair, not to mention that most of the other forums I have joined I joined initially because of some statement I read about Sakura which I thought was bullshit), but I guess that different people have different opinions on the matter.
I'm not sure how you can say that HF being the only route would make you depressed, though. Surely the fact that it's not the only route makes it more depressing, because of the implications for Sakura in the other two routes.
There's a difference between not being completely centred around her and ignoring her entirely. As much as ttestagr et al. would like you to think otherwise, I do not expect Sakura to be the centre of attention in every single fic. I just want her to be treated fairly, and not entitrely overlooked as she is in most, and I also want the characters to actually act in-character, which I don't think any post-UBW fic which ignores Sakura entirely is (Rin has softened a lot, and Shirou would ask her about her family, and once he found out the truth he would make it his personal mission to reconcile the sisters).
Well, for me personally, it's HF (and Sakura) that is the reason I'm in the fandom, along with the beginning of Fate/Zero (because reading that made me want to write a fanfic that actually gave Kariya a semi-good ending, and that's what led me to join Beast's Lair, not to mention that most of the other forums I have joined I joined initially because of some statement I read about Sakura which I thought was bullshit), but I guess that different people have different opinions on the matter.
I'm not sure how you can say that HF being the only route would make you depressed, though. Surely the fact that it's not the only route makes it more depressing, because of the implications for Sakura in the other two routes.
Because, you know, we might like characters other than Sakura, most of whom don't get happy endings in HF?
I'll point out you even acknowledged that HF doesn't end well for everyone, albeit only in the context of "Well Saber had two routes with good endings, it's fine if she gets screwed over in this one because Sakura got screwed over in the other two." So yeah.
I'll point out you even acknowledged that HF doesn't end well for everyone, albeit only in the context of "Well Saber had two routes with good endings, it's fine if she gets screwed over in this one because Sakura got screwed over in the other two." So yeah.
Mike, your bias is showing again. As is your ignorance of anything not purely Sakura. Your soul doesn't get recycled if you qualify as a heroic spirit. Which Arturia does. She can't go to the Throne normally either. So she'll go fight again somewhere else until she wins a Grail or gives up, which would mean she'd be stuck in Avalon with nothing but rage since Shirou doesn't even want to follow her there that route.