Naruto Senjutsu

[Knyght]

We've had a lot of talk about senjutsu thrown around recently so here's a thread devoted to the subject. That includes Sage Mode, relevant summon animals, Hashirama, Juugo, the curse seals etc etc.

Here's a run-down of everything that was brought up when Naruto started learning senjutsu:


Ninjutsu uses the energy within you. Senjutsu uses the energy around you. Senjutsu adds natural energy from outside your body to your chakra (composed of physical and spiritual energy) to form a new, stronger chakra. This boosts all your stats.

Natural energy is the energy of the atmosphere and the earth surrounding you i.e. the air and the ground. Kurama mentions water as well. No-one mentions plants.

In order to take in natural energy, you have to be able to feel the energy and to draw it to yourself. Then once you become one with it, you’ll be able to control where the energy enters and exists your body.

Frog oil has the power to draw natural energy to you.

Spiritual energy, physical energy and natural energy – if you don’t have them perfectly balanced, you can’t create sage chakra. Fukasaku says that because Naruto’s used to creating and using chakra, his physical and spiritual energy are already balanced. But things get difficult when you introduce natural energy.

If there’s too little natural energy then you can’t create sage chakra. But if there’s too much, the natural energy will overpower you and you’ll turn into a frog. A little too much isn’t a problem but if you go too far then you’ll be a frog forever and then you’ll turn to stone.

Sage training isn’t something just anyone can do. You have to have enormous amounts of chakra otherwise you won’t be able to draw on natural energy.

Naruto tries to lift up a stone statue and fails. He sticks his hand in the oil and gathers natural energy until his body changes. This time he picks it up.

Ninjutsu exhaust you the more you use them, since you’re using your own chakra. But senjutsu take in the natural energy from outside, so rather than becoming exhausted, you actually recover more quickly.

Naruto achieves perfect balance and becomes a sage and he can access more sage chakra like that than with the oil. Then he falls onto some spikes but isn’t hurt because his body has been “activated”.

You can’t stay in Sage Mode for extended periods of time (later on Naruto trains to extend the time limit). In order to gather natural energy necessary for it, you can’t move so you can’t use it in battle. With the power of FUSION, Fukasaku can be still and absorb natural energy to keep them in Sage Mode.

But it doesn’t matter ‘cause the Kyuubi says fuck that noise. Naruto decides to do it while moving but that’s impossible and his attempts cause him to start turning into a frog.

Naruto states that now that he has natural energy, he can feel everyone’s chakra.

Then he demonstrates frog katas which use the natural energy surrounding them. The energy became part of Naruto’s body and attacked Pain.

Naruto infuses his shadow clones with sage chakra and left them behind so once they’re summoned and dispelled, the sage chakra goes back into Naruto.

 

[Knyght]

And two theories I've made in the past on the subject:

Spoiler

Juugo's Clan

Originally, this clan was contracted with the snake tribe and became renowned as snake sages from training at Ryuuichi Cave. At some point, they had a falling out with the snake tribe and were cut off from the summoning contract. Without the contract, they lost the original source of their knowledge and their bodies reverted to human style senjutsu. However they were able to adapt; they kept records of senjutsu and modified their bodies further to compensate for the snake jutsu.

The physical modifications resulted in a kekkei genkai which allows them to passively absorb ambient natural energy, meaning they can gather it whilst moving and won’t turn into stone statue which makes them far more powerful than ordinary sages. However when a clan member gather too much natural energy it causes a severe imbalance within their body, resulting in their mind going completely overwhelmed with homicidal rage. They will go on a rampage until the excess energy is spent and return to their natural state of mind. Without the tools of the snake tribe, the clan had to be cautious in their training so that their members wouldn’t go berserk.

The method needed to control this power would be the same as learning senjutsu. The user would need to remain absolutely still so they can willingly become a part of nature. This would enable them to sense natural energy, both within and without, and learn to control it. With this newfound awareness, they could learn to actively balance the natural energy within them with their mental and physical energy, or prevent their bodies from drawing in the natural energy to begin with.

The absorption of natural energy gives them heightened physical abilities and stronger jutsu, though not to the same exact as a perfect sage. But the main ability that stems from their kekkei genkai is known as Senninka, Sage Transformation, which works similarly to Sage Mode. This allows them to perform various shape-shifting feats such as creating weapon-like appendages, extending their limbs beyond their natural length and rearranging their chakra system to blast it out of their body directly. An unexpected side-effect of this is their ability to absorb biomass, meaning that they can consume other human beings to heal injuries and replenish chakra. They can also transfer their own flesh to another person but this was only done to other clan members as a form of healing due to compatibility.

It’s also possible for the clan member to undergo a complete transformation instead of partial ones, causing them to adopt a demonic form which gives them a significant power boost. A disadvantage of this is that their berserker impulses become much stronger in this form, making it difficult to control.

This clan was feared for their power and some time before the founding of the ninja villages, their enemies attacked and killing many of their people. Most of their teachings were lost which caused the remaining clan members difficulty in dealing with their powers, often succumbing to their berserker rages. Over the years, this made them hated targets and the clan dwindled even further until they were nearly extinct. All that’s left of the clan is a single boy with little knowledge of his origins, a power he doesn’t understand and an impulse to kill which grows stronger by the day.

Senjutsu

This is a form of chakra manipulation which was discovered by the summon animals. As animals they are closer to nature than humans and their instincts led to them learning to harness its power. Not all the summon animals possess knowledge of senjutsu and not all of those that do are willing to pass on their teaching. The ones that do are willing to teach those who sign their clan’s summoning contract in blood.

To use senjutsu, it’s necessary to possess extreme levels of chakra as it would mean that the user has a body which can use the full potential of this training, one that’s capable of handling a foreign energy being introduced into it. The process involves sensing and absorbing natural energy into the body and blending it with their chakra to create the more powerful sage chakra. The user is required to balance their physical and spiritual energy with the natural energy they gather from nature. If the user puts too little natural energy into using senjutsu, the technique will not work and if they gather too much then they transform into an animal and turn to stone. Once a balance has been reached, the user will enter an empowered state known as Sage Mode. Reaching this point means that the user is no longer in danger of turning into a stone animal.

There are two types of Sage Mode; perfect and imperfect. Perfect Sage Mode is achieved when the user is able to perfectly balance natural energy with their chakra. The only part of their appearance which changes is their eyes; usually changing colour, shape and/or gaining markings. The advantages provided by this form are that the user's physical strength, speed, stamina, reflexes, and durability dramatically increase and their ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu become more powerful. They can harness the natural energy surrounding them, turning it into an extension of their body, which increases the reach of their attacks. Lastly, they gain a sensory ability to detect and identify other people's chakra even from very long distances away, measure the strength of size of someone’s chakra and enable them to predict the movements of their enemies.

Imperfect Sage Mode is when the user hasn’t achieved a perfect balance of energy, causing their body to take on animalistic properties. The disadvantages of this are that the increase in physical abilities and the strength of their jutsu isn’t as great as they would be in the perfected form, and they are unable to harness natural energy as an extension of their body to increase the reach of their attacks. Instead they are capable of transforming parts of their body to become more animalistic which can be useful in combat.

Despite common belief, it isn’t necessary for humans to sign a contract with a summon animal for them to use senjutsu. However it’s far more difficult for a human to become in tune with nature without a blood bond with summon animals, assuming they even possess the necessary knowledge. And the lack of tools that would prevent them from turning to stone would make it a dangerous and time-consuming endeavour.

When an un-contracted human learns senjutsu, instead of transforming into an animal they remain humanoid but undergo unnatural alterations with the exact features being unique to each individual. The only common features are yellow eyes with a black sclera, skin changing colour, and longer hair, though someone who can use a perfect Sage Mode would only have their eyes change colour. This type of senjutsu is incredibly rare and those that use it are known as Demon Sages.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Quoted from the new chapter thread:

I feel my levels of free time are perfectly healthy.

Natural energy is the energy of the atmosphere and the earth surrounding you i.e. the air and the ground. Kurama mentions water as well. No-one mentions plants.

Manga prediction: Plants are harder to draw natural energy from. Hashirama figured out how, and that's why his Sage Mode is different. Also, if the theory I posted in the Naruversity thread is correct, and there is a difference between natural energy from the earth and natural energy from the "heavens," terrain giving you Naruto's Sage Mode, and atmosphere giving you Juugo's Sage Transformation, would natural energy from the water give you another set of different powers?

Ninjutsu exhaust you the more you use them, since you’re using your own chakra. But senjutsu take in the natural energy from outside, rather than becoming exhausted, you actually recover more quickly.

What the heck does this mean? Naruto was showing signs of strain while he was fighting Pain, wasn't he? I could understand your stamina appearing to improve because you're only using 2/3rds of your physical and spiritual energy, but this? What, does being in Sage Mode give you a minor healing factor that causes your stamina to recover faster?

I'll post a consolidated theory on the chakra circulatory system, low "chakra pressure," chakra exhaustion, sensors, hyuga juuken, stamina vs "chakra levels," senjutsu, Juugo, and the Cursed Seals of Heaven and Earth later today.

 

[TmDagger]

The way I see it: Molded chakra is 'unnatural' for humans(and most other living things) so bodies of ninjas are constantly 'breaking' down and absorbing it (at certain pace) to refill stamina(may be a reason why ninjas look like complete stamina-freaks compared to civilians - as chakra = spiritual energy + stamina, body eventually gets more then was taken from it - unless, of course, ninja spends chakra externally).

Ninja counter this by constantly molding more chakra - but this process is rapidly drains their spiritual energy, so they can't (usually) maintain battle-ready state for long and have to stay 'powered down' most of the time.

Now imagine what happens if chakra-circulatory system of ninja is full of Sage Chakra(which is many times more potent then ordinary thing and seems to break down much faster).
Then there is some hints that True Sage Arts are more then just another way to gain 'control' of more power - so there may be some spiritual rejuvenation going on too.

As for Naruto growing exhausted when Sage Mode runs out? Sage mode puts a lot of strain on body of user - and Naruto, who just learned it (what?) a month or two ago has yet to adapt to it.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

I'm actually thinking Trees have a closer tie with the natural chakra flow of the world. Natural Energy Antennas, basically.
Hashirama himself became such an Antenna because Mokuton.

I'm also thinking the biju suppressing part was because he was a descendant of the Rikudo Sennin, he would have got it with any other fused elementals bloodline limit.

 

[Knyght]

My interpretation of the requirements for becoming a sage: A person needs a body with an incredibly high amount of stamina as it means they are able to produce equally high amounts of chakra. This capability means that they can handle an additional form of energy being introduced to their system. Otherwise the body would automatically reject the natural energy and make it impossible for them to produce sage chakra.

The sage doesn't actively generate chakra and mix the natural energy with it. Instead they draw in enough natural energy that it matches the amount of spiritual and physical energy their body produces. Once the natural energy has been drawn in, it automatically mixes with their internal energies, both when they naturally combine together and circulate the body and when the user actively generates chakra for moulding into a jutsu. Because of that, they can enter Sage Mode even if they're low on chakra.


Anyway, interesting how Naruto apparently has a perfect balance of physical and spiritual energy and that it's considered to be the norm.

And apparently you can gather natural energy whilst moving which I didn't know was possible; it's just a matter of it being too difficult to balance it like that.

 

[Altered Nova]

Yeah that "not moving" requirement has to be purely a matter of concentration, rather than an actual physical limitation. Otherwise Fukasaku and Shima couldn't get around it by riding on Jiraiya's shoulders. This makes me wonder if it might actually be possible to gather nature energy while moving if you were skilled enough at multitasking and concentrating.

 

[Knyght]

Or as you become more and more experienced with senjutsu. But it'd be damn difficult to practice since you'd still need to be smacked with the stick.

 

[violinmana]

Naruto was gathering nature chakra while moving, but it was implied that he pretty much always gathered too much. Also, it seemed like Kabuto could gather natural energy while moving.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Also, it seemed like Kabuto could gather natural energy while moving.

Wasn't that because he blood-jacked Juugo?

 

[ankokudaishogun]

I wonder if Jugo's clan and the Uchiha are related. Both suffer of chakra-related brain chemical imbalance.

Jugo's clan becoming aggressive because the senjutsu chakra overload might actually because selective breeding: in a crapsack world like Naruto's, having people becoming super-aggressive instead of simply hyperactive or something else might have been a survival strategy... which backfired.

 

[Knyght]

Naruto was gathering nature chakra while moving, but it was implied that he pretty much always gathered too much. Also, it seemed like Kabuto could gather natural energy while moving.

Kabuto had implanted himself with Juugo's DNA which allows him to absorb natural energy all the time.


And my theory on the Cursed Seals of Heaven and Earth:

I think that the curse seal designs might relate to the "Heaven and Earth" motto from the Chuunin Exams where heaven is the mind and earth is the body. In which case they symbolically tie into spiritual and physical energy/yin and yang. Sasuke's bloodline is more spiritual so he has heaven whilst Kimimaro's bloodline is more physical so he has earth. Plus these guys are in the top percentile so I figured the reason they got the strongest cursed seal is because they would have the greatest aptitude for senjutsu if they ever learn it themselves.

Naruto would have ended up with the Cursed Seal of Earth going by that theory.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Question: Does being a "perfect sage" give you a greater strength, speed, durability, etc. boost than being a imperfect sage like Jiraiya? Jiraiya is much stronger than Naruto when they're both in their "base forms," with Naruto probably only having the edge on stamina, yet as Sages I'd say they're much more evenly matched.

Jiraiya's Sage Mode was said to be imperfect, as he took on toad-like traits. However, he could transform his limbs to being more toad-like in order to increase his manoeuvrability. Naruto has never shown this ability, although he did have the "frog kata aura" and became a sensor, which frankly are much better powers.

It's just that I was thinking about the differences between Toad and Snake Sage Mode, when it occurred to me that Kabuto's an imperfect snake sage. That's why he could access snake anatomy like brille. So if Kabuto ever perfects his natural energy balance, we can expect him to lose the snake body stuff (especially as Orochimaru has reabsorbed all of his chakra,) but to gain a natural energy taijutsu-enhancing aura and sensor abilities, as well a significant physical boost.

 

[roting_CORPSE]

if he can get out of his loop. and train really well.

plus I dont think kabuto has a big enough chakra reserves to accommodate sage mode naturally. he had with him uzumaki dna thanks to karin which might have boosted his reserves and not to mention orochimaru and the rest of sound 4 plus juugo and i think suigetsu to even begin to asks the snake sage to be trained in sage mode.

 

[Knyght]

I assumed that a perfect sage is better in every way and the only advantage that imperfect sage has is that they can transform themselves to become more animal-like.

Edit:

So Kabuto says straight out that he's a perfect sage. His snake attributes were a result of Orochimaru's DNA and chakra, and possibly from experiments on his body (like that snake tail).

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Wha? Oh, that's B.S. Did Kabuto display a natural energy aura like Naruto? Or an ability to sense chakra? (and if he did, it might have been Karin's technique.) He grows horns, for pete's sake!

Although, could the aura actually have been a result of learning the frog katas, and not sage mode itself? Could part of learning the forms involve learning to generate the aura? If so, that would mean that the toad and snake sage modes are actually quite similar, it's just that the toads figured out a sage fighting style and the snakes didn't. Huh. I always figured that the frog katas were actually just a fighting style designed to best take advantage of the aura.

 

[Altered Nova]

Well snakes don't have limbs so it would make sense that they didn't develop a special senjutsu martial arts style of their own.

Also it's possible that Kabuto is a perfect sage but he intentionally unbalanced his sage chakra a bit during that fight so he could use the brilles to defend against Sasuke and Itachi's visual genjutsu and his own flashbang jutsu.

 

[Knyght]

The horns might be the snake sage's equivalent of toad eyes and markings.

 

[Knyght]

So I was checking the first appearance of Sage Mode after a discussion on DLP and noticed this:

One of the elder toads tells Jiraiya that he needs to learn to use Sage Mode on his own. I always thought he summoned the toads to avoid having to find a place to meditate and to avoid the risk of running out of sage chakra. But this makes it sound like he never bothered to learn how to draw in natural energy without the toad oil in the first place, and he instead relies on the toads doing it for him whilst he balances it himself.

 

[Altered Nova]

Well that would explain why Jiraiya never taught Naruto anything about Senjutsu. And it makes Naruto out to be even more of a ludicrously genius prodigy for mastering Senjutsu so quickly and so completely when even Jiraiya never could get a handle on drawing in nature energy without the toad oil or fusing with a toad.

 

[datakim]

I always thought he summoned the toads to avoid having to find a place to meditate and to avoid the risk of running out of sage chakra.

Like I said on DLP, this does not really make sense. If Jiraiya could enter SM on his own, the rational response would be to do this:

1.Be still on the head of the toad he summoned, and enter into SM. Yes, without the two toads on his shoulders, this state would be only temporary, but we can assume it would last atleast a couple of minutes. Naruto has demonstrated that you can stay in SM quite a while even without the toads, so its not THAT temporary. Naruto has also demonstrated that you don't need to meditate for hours, a few moments is all you need. Heck, on the turtle-temple, Naruto basically enters SM virtually instantly. And yes, Naruto is better than Jiraiya, but surely that hints that we are not talking about Jiraiya needing to meditate for hours. Not to mention that with the big toad there to help, Jiraiya could surely find temporary moments of peace where he could be still and draw in even more NE occasionally to lenghten the time further.

2.Use the chakra boost given by SM to summon Fukasaku and Shima a lot faster. I presume that to summon those two, you need a LOT of chakra. Even more than is required to summon Gamabunta, and the reason it took Jiraiya so long was the he was basically building up chakra for a truly humongous summoning (nothing else really makes sense) throughout his fight against the summon-path. With SM, he might have been strong enough to summon those two instantly, or at best he would have cut down the waiting time quite a bit.

As a sidenote, I would so love to see a story where Kyuubi accidentally feeds Naruto a bit too much chakra in part 1, and Naruto ends up summoning Fukasaku instead of Gamabunta while falling down the ravine . Thats a divergence for you .

3.Once the two toads are summoned, have them jump into his shoulders and start feeding him NE, turning the temporary SM he was alread in, into a permanent one.

I think the fact that Jiraiya does not do this, but instead remains in base throughout the entire fight against the summoner-path despite obviously finding it difficult, and only enters SM when the two toads are on his shoulders is very telling.

Well that would explain why Jiraiya never taught Naruto anything about Senjutsu. And it makes Naruto out to be even more of a ludicrously genius prodigy for mastering Senjutsu so quickly and so completely when even Jiraiya never could get a handle on drawing in nature energy without the toad oil or fusing with a toad.

I don't think Jiraiya could have taught it either way. He did not have Fukasakus ability to force NE out of Naruto if he absorbed too much, nor did he have the toad oil.

What Jiraiya should have done, is arranged with Fukasaku for Naruto be regularly reverse summoned to the toad mountain for lessons.


As a sidenote, I have a theory that those of the younger brothers lineage have the ability to use senjutsu much easier than other people, due to the body of the sage that they inherited. knight504 did poke a hole into it recently, but I still havent given up on the idea just yet .

If the idea is true though, it would explain why Jiraiya never learned to enter SM on his own (he could not since he lacked the hax-cheat-body inherited from the Younger Brother&Sot6P), and it would explain how Naruto was able to achieve in one week that Jiraiya did not manage in his entire lifetime (Naruto did have the YB-cheat due to being of the Uzumaki lineage).

 

[Knyght]

I always thought he summoned the toads to avoid having to find a place to meditate and to avoid the risk of running out of sage chakra.

Like I said on DLP, this does not really make sense. If Jiraiya could enter SM on his own, the rational response would be...

You say it doesn't make sense but Fukasaku says otherwise. He claims you can't use it in battle and that you need allies to pull it off. Which is why I never saw a problem with Jiraiya using it the way he did; it was the safest method, one he could pull of quickly (in comparison to meditating first and then summoning the toads) and would allow him to create as much sage chakra as he wants from the get-go. And considering Jiraiya didn't like Sage Mode, I figured he wasn't as well practiced at gathering natural energy as Naruto (and probably wasn't as good as him in the first place) so it wasn't a stretch for him to think he couldn't pull off Sage Mode whilst fighting someone like Nagato in the middle of an enemy village.

Evidently, it's a genuine limitation rather than Jiraiya being cautious but it'd be believable even if that wasn't the case. Doesn't matter now anyway.

What I'm wondering is how Orochimaru relates to this. Kabuto told us he didn't have a strong enough body to handle senjutsu but we later learn that he filled the curse seals with his sage chakra. Could he create sage chakra but not enter Sage Mode? Was his Sage Mode sub-par; only creating just enough sage chakra to have one but not enough for it to be truly effective? Or was his problem the same as Jiraiya and he needed assistance (a special substance or a summon) to use Sage Mode?

 

[datakim]

You say it doesn't make sense but Fukasaku says otherwise. He claims you can't use it in battle and that you need allies to pull it off.

Allies like the huge toad Jiraiya summoned to help him?

Not to mention the fact that Naruto has demonstrated Fukasaku incorrect since then. Or maybe it would be better to say, that Fukasaku means that you cannot use SM if someone is actively attacking you. So if Naruto is walking down the street, and suddenly someone ambushes him and starts attacking, Naruto cannot enter SM.

Naruto can however withdraw from the fight, hide for a moment, and use that moment to enter SM (out of the active battle, even if the overall fight is still not over). Or he could summon a toad to fight/distract the opponent, giving him time to enter SM.

Jiraiya had such a toad, and he was standing on top of him for quite some time. Heck, he could have jumped into the toads mouth and been protected while he meditated while the toad basically ran around avoiding attacks.

And considering Jiraiya didn't like Sage Mode, I figured he wasn't as well practiced at gathering natural energy as Naruto (and probably wasn't as good as him in the first place) so it wasn't a stretch for him to think he couldn't pull off Sage Mode whilst fighting someone like Nagato in the middle of an enemy village.

I can grant that Jiraiya just lacks the ability to enter SM on his own in any but the most peacefull of environment due to lack of skill. That does mean however that in practice (with rare exceptions), he indeed cannot use SM on his own.

What I'm wondering is how Orochimaru relates to this. Kabuto told us he didn't have a strong enough body to handle senjutsu but we later learn that he filled the curse seals with his sage chakra. Could he create sage chakra but not enter Sage Mode?

First, I am unsure if the cursed seals can truly be considered "real" Sage chakra. Its more like a bootleg copy rather than anything approaching true SM.

Second, remember that while Orochimaru may have put his own chakra into the seals, it seems the purpose of that was to act as a sort of "horcrux" and generally influence the victim. The actual powerboost came from Juugos NE bloodline, NOT from Orochimaru. So the cursed seals are composed of Juugos NE/SM chakra(powerboost) + Orochimarus normal chakra(control).

I don't think Orochimaru has ever used NE that we know of. Not through learning proper SM (he lacked the body), and not from Juugos NE version (he never injected Juugos DNA into himself Kabuto style, nor did he mark himself with a cursed seal).

It is somewhat interesting that Jiraiyas body was apparently strong enough to learn SM, even if poorly, while Orochimaru could not, despite having a truly freakish body that could basically do all sorts of craziness.

Unless Orochimaru never even tried? I mean the less strong your body is, the more dangerous it is. Learning proper SM has a high risk of death afterall. Maybe Orochimaru COULD have learned SM to the same degree as Jiraiya did, but he never even tried because due to his obsession with immortality, he was too afraid to risk learning (and dying) without first finding a body that was so strong that the risks would be minimized.

Jiraiya on the other hand always speaks of "guts". Its quite possible that where Orochimaru balked at learning an extremely risky technique that had a strong probability of killing him, Jiraiya jumped right in.

 

[Knyght]

Naruto didn’t prove anything since Fukasaku already said that if you need to, you’d have to retreat and find a place to gather natural energy. And he had a fair bit of support. Problem is that’s a last resort because it’s likely to get you killed, assuming you even get the opportunity.

Trying to remain still on top or inside of Gamaken would have been futile; the toad wouldn’t be able to attack for fear of disrupting Jiraiya, his dodging would have had the same problem and he could be hit by an attack at any moment. At least Hashirama was standing on the ground and not under attack when he used Sage Mode in a fight. Using Gamaken as a distraction whilst he hides somewhere would also have its problems. Nagato had already used two summons so Jiraiya knows he could send one to attack Gamaken and the other to fight Jiraiya, send them both after the toad and fight Jiraiya himself or send them both after the toad whilst he fights Jiraiya. Bringing more toads into the mix might even the odds but would use up more chakra and wouldn’t necessarily give him the respite he needs. And for all he knows, Konan might pop up out of nowhere.

If Jiraiya was dead-set on entering Sage Mode and then summoning the toads, the ideal method would be to use that gourd toad. At which point his plan would: Leave Gamaken -> summon gourd toad -> hide inside whilst gourd toad hides -> gather natural for Sage Mode -> summon elder toads -> find Nagato and get back to fighting. He’d also have no idea what would be happening outside of the toads. As far as I’m concerned, Jiraiya took the best approach.

Orochimaru straight out calls it “his senjutsu chakra.” That sounds clear enough to me. I don’t think Juugo’s chakra is involved in the process at all since what causes the condition in those inflicted with the curse seal is an enzyme Orochimaru developed rather than something directly taken from Juugo and put into the victim.

On top of that, I’m fairly certain that Anko’s curse seal is a prototype that doesn’t have the enzyme. It stretches disbelief otherwise since Juugo couldn’t have been more than 3 years old when Anko was branded and it would have been after he’d earned the name “Juugo of the Scales”, gone into isolation and have been found by Kimimaro. And this was long before Oto existed.

Kabuto says that Orochimaru started experimenting with senjutsu which contradicts the idea that he wouldn’t have tried. And Orochimaru isn’t afraid to take; he couldn’t be after performing all those experiments on himself and when he does things like enjoying a fight with the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki and only stopping because he ran out of energy. The Jiraiya line is out of context; it’s just that Orochimaru doesn’t place as much value on being gutsy as Jiraiya, and it was all about never giving up. Plus, senjutsu’s a lot less risky without using substances like toad oil so there’s not as much reason to get bent out of shape about it.

...Freaking long post. tl;dr Jiraiya did the right thing (in this hypothetical scenario where he can use SM whenever :mellow and Orochi totes be using senjutsu, yo.

 

[datakim]

Trying to remain still on top or inside of Gamaken would have been futile; the toad wouldn’t be able to attack for fear of disrupting Jiraiya, his dodging would have had the same problem and he could be hit by an attack at any moment.

(Feeling really tired right now. Sorry if I made any major screwups in this long post).

I don't buy that. So long as Jiraiya was still, Gamaken could run around as much as he wanted. All that was necessary was for Jiraiya to attach himself to Gamaken with chakra. A simple trick for someone of Jiraiyas skill. If the problem was the fear that someone would manage to hit Jiraiya (and he is pretty small targed compared to Gamaken so its not that easy), Jiraiya could just have jumped into Gamakens mouth. That trick of hiding is pretty common. Nagato used it (IN THIS VERY BATTLE). Naruto used it. Jiraiya used it before. Sasuke used it. And so on.

Furthermore, we know that the stillness required for SM is merely the stillness of your own boy, not total stillness. So if you are motionless, but someone is running around and moving you around, you are still absorbing NE. If this was not the case, then Shima and Fukasaku would have been useless, since Jiraiya was running around a lot.

Jiraiya could even have retreated to that toad stomach dimension thing, which he trapped that one path in as you say. I again don't buy the idea that it would be bad that he would not know what was happening, since Pain won't be going anywhere.

So in a nutshell, Jiraiya did have options that would have allowed him moments of peace and stillness.

Heck, why is it that he did not use SM when he invaded Rain. I can understand him not summoning Ma and Pa if its not an emergency (since they have lives of their own). But if he can enter SM, why is it that he did do so prior to the scene that leads to the confrontation with Konan, given that he must know how risky his actions are. He would have had plenty of time to go to SM, and used sparingly, even that temporary SM would have been helpfull (and again ofcourse it would have made it easier.to summon the two sage toads).

Heck, why does Jiraiya not use SM even when it would make sense. Why was he not in Sage Mode for safety, when he weakened Narutos seal for example. Would probably have reduced the damage.

And ofcourse, while I doubt Kishi had any clue he would invent SM back in part 1, if we want to ignore real-world explanations to come up with rational in-world explanations, we run into a LOT of trouble for Jiraiya never using SM, despite there being several situations where he should have.

Heck, given that Naruto knows nothing about SM, we can assume that Jiraiya did not use it once during the timeskip. Not even once.

Using Gamaken as a distraction whilst he hides somewhere would also have its problems. Nagato had already used two summons so Jiraiya knows he could send one to attack Gamaken and the other to fight Jiraiya, send them both after the toad and fight Jiraiya himself or send them both after the toad whilst he fights Jiraiya.

What I don't understand is why Gamaken could not just flee. I mean he could have Jiraiya start entering SM, and then have Gamaken get the hell out of dodge.

Orochimaru straight out calls it “his senjutsu chakra.” That sounds clear enough to me. I don’t think Juugo’s chakra is involved in the process at all since what causes the condition in those inflicted with the curse seal is an enzyme Orochimaru developed rather than something directly taken from Juugo and put into the victim.

Whatever it is, its based on Juugo. Juugo himself states that Sasuke is using a replication of his powers when they first meet. And after Bee blows out Sasukes torso, Juugo heals him because the compatibility with cursed seal proves Sasuke will be compatible with Juugo.

On top of that, I’m fairly certain that Anko’s curse seal is a prototype that doesn’t have the enzyme. It stretches disbelief otherwise since Juugo couldn’t have been more than 3 years old when Anko was branded and it would have been after he’d earned the name “Juugo of the Scales”, gone into isolation and have been found by Kimimaro. And this was long before Oto existed.

Thats possible, but I see no reason why Orochimaru could not have added Juugos stuff into the seal later. Heck, Juugo did have a clan, so presumably there were others like him. Orochimaru could have used one of them, and later shifted to Juugos body once it became clear Juugo was strongest.

Kabuto says that Orochimaru started experimenting with senjutsu which contradicts the idea that he wouldn’t have tried.

Interesting. How the heck does that make any sense? I mean it has been confirmed to us that Juugos bloodline has a Kekkei Genkai that causes them to absorb NE naturally. Furthermore, its been confirmed that the cursed seal powerup is based on Juugos ability. And its been confirmed that Orochimaru never achieved SM.

Maybe Orochimaru means that his chakra somehow acts as somekind of crude control to prevent the cursed seal from totally screwing someone over. I just don't see how you could have Kabuto clearly state that Orochimarus body was too weak for senjutsu, and then have Orochimaru use senjutsu chaka. Either this is a major fuckup, or Orochimaru means something else.

And Orochimaru isn’t afraid to take; he couldn’t be after performing all those experiments on himself and when he does things like enjoying a fight with the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki and only stopping because he ran out of energy.

Well, he only got concerned after Naruto started with the bijuudama, implying he arrogantly believed Naruto was not a therat until then. That being said, I did not mean to say that Orochimaru was a total coward or anything. Just that he might not be willing to do some things if the risk/reward ratio was too bad.

So for example, hypotethically lets say that for Orochimaru and Jiraiya, learning SM carried a 40% chance of death. Do you think he would go ahead with the training, or do you think he would try to find a body that would drop those odds to say < 10%. I think he would avoid learning until he could maximize his chances.

In truth, thats not actually cowardice, and Orochimaru has been shown to be a scientist so it makes sense to me that he would research stuff to make things as safe as possible for himself by using his knowledge/research to reduce all risks to minimum.

For example, I am willing to bet that before he performed the most simplistic of experiments/modifications on himself, he first tested it with lots of prisoners to make sure it would not kill him.

Plus, senjutsu’s a lot less risky without using substances like toad oil so there’s not as much reason to get bent out of shape about it.

Not sure if its that much less dangerous. Yes, the toad oil does draw in NE by itself which is risky, but even with normal style, you can still easily overdraw NE. I mean as I understand it, there are two parts for becoming a Sage. First is learning to sense NE and draw it into your body. The second is balancing NE with your physical and spiritual energies and avoid an "imbalance" between thsoe energies that would be fatal. The second stage would still be very dangerous, regardless of how the NE got there.