Naruto Senjutsu

[Altered Nova]

I dunno, the idea that the great sage Jiraiya literally cannot draw in nature energy and thus cannot enter sage mode without Shima and/or Fukasaku's help seems ridiculous, but it does help explain away the otherwise bizarre plothole of why Jiraiya has never before bothered using what should be his most powerful asset. As datakim mentions, there are many earlier situations where using Sage Mode would have been an obvious and useful course of action. During the Sand-Sound invasion he had plenty of time to enter sage mode while his toads beat up the attacking snake summons, during the time skip he should have entered sage mode before cracking Kurama's seal to better enable him to subdue a potentially out of control jinchuuriki, before even infiltrating Amegakure he should have entered sage mode because he knew there was a good possibility he would encounter Pain himself within the village.

Of course that doesn't explain why he never summoned Fukasaku and/or Shima and asked for their help during any of those occasions. Fukasaku and Shima are humble, kind and powerful people, they have already proven they are willing to help defend Konoha from attack or help train Jiraiya's student and they won't be arrogant or condescending about it. So why did Jiraiya never summon them before? Was Jiraiya too prideful to ask for their help until he was absolutely certain he just could not handle the situation on his own? Did he feel that the great Sages of Toad Mountain were too important to be bothered with his petty little problems and was thus too humble to ever ask for their help except as a last resort?

 

[Knyght]

The point being that Jiraiya wouldn’t be able to achieve that stillness. IIRC, we’ve never seen anyone using chakra and gathering natural energy at the same time and I’m inclined to think it’s not possible. I would think that using chakra would be as bad as moving considering that you’re trying to balance the energies in the first place. Shima and Fukasaku are they’re fused to Jiraiya’s body; there’s a big difference between that and just sitting on someone’s shoulder, even with chakra.

And the problem with jumping into Gamaken’s mouth wasn’t whether he could hide in there or not, it’s because he’d have the same problem and not being able to stay still whilst the toad’s on the move or attacked. Which is why I mentioned the gourd toad – the one with the toad stomach dimension – who probably wouldn’t have that problem (the toad was just floating around so I’m unsure) but it brings up other issues instead which I’ve said. Jiraiya got his arm ripped off when a Pain snuck up behind so not seeing what’s going on is definitely a bad idea; god knows what this guy could have set up when he’s not aware of it. Gamaken fleeing, either by running away or de-summoning, would leave Jiraiya alone and vulnerable.

The purpose of Jiraiya’s mission was an investigation. He hadn’t intended to fight at all but was finding as much information about Akatsuki as he could. Only he got caught flat-footed because of the sensory rain so he didn’t have any time to prepare for a confrontation. Plus, a frog-faced man would be fairly conspicuous, he might have set off sensors and since Sage Mode can’t be used for extended periods, he’d need to ‘recharge’ so he could end up getting caught at the wrong moment or when he’s finished. It tires you out too, apparently. Last two wouldn’t be a problem if he’s using Shima and Fukasaku but then he’s basically walking in to start a fight instead of investigating.

Just summoning them beforehand without actually going Sage Mode probably would have been a good idea though. Chakra requirements might have swayed him away from that, I suppose. And he may just not like putting them in danger.

I don’t think Jiraiya had any real idea what to expect when he opened the seal; not that Naruto would actually attack or that he’d be as powerful as he was. He was just planning to grant Naruto a bit more access and instead got a flood. And he was an S-rank ninja so he probably would have felt it was overly cautious. Something for him to regret in hindsight.

I agree that Juugo’s powers were introduced later and that Orochimaru had research his clan in past, but not that he actually used one of the clan members in the past. I think that invalidates too much of what we first learned about Juugo and honestly just makes his presence pointless. What I think Kabuto and Orochimaru are saying is only that Orochimaru couldn’t master senjutsu and become a perfect sage because of his physical limitations, not that he was incapable of it entirely.

Not using toad oil does cut out a huge chunk of the risk for senjutsu, I think. Toad oil automatically shoves natural energy inside you long before you can sense and control it so you’re pretty much defenceless. But the slow and steady route would allow you to sense it first and only introduce it to your body when you choose to. You’d probably do the stillness training first too. You have a lot more control over the whole situation, basically. The potential danger’s still there obviously, but it’s not quite an imminent threat. That’s what I meant.

 

[the DragonBard]

I have a vague theory that Juugo's clan were a branch of the Senju, and their ability of Sage Transformation came from part of the 'Sage's Body.'

Especially since Jinchuriki-Obito's doing some stuff that appears similar to Juugo, and the Juubi is supposed to be a mass of Nature Energy.

Brings up an interesting point as the Bijuu are living collections of chakra, while their combined form is a living collection of Nature Energy.

 

[Altered Nova]

I just brought this up in the new chapter thread, but it seems that nature energy and bijuu chakra are related somehow. Naruto can gather nature energy faster in Kyuubi chakra mode, Kyuubi chakra and senjutsu chakra can be used in sync for an even greater boost, Kurama gathers chakra in for Naruto by meditating in the lotus position similar to how Naruto learned to sense and gather nature energy, and the Juubi is made of nature energy. I think that the bijuu can replenish their chakra reserves by gathering nature energy and somehow converting it into chakra. There's just too many connections for them to be unrelated.

I just don't get why the bijuu need to convert the nature energy to chakra at all, why can't they be made of nature energy like the Juubi is? And why can't they absorb some unconverted nature energy and create senjutsu chakra?

 

[Knyght]

Could a bijuu even collect nature energy when their bodies are inside a jinchuuriki?

@the Dragonbard: I could buy that.

 

[violinmana]

Could it be that they're leeching nature chakra from the Juubi, thus taking away from his strength?