Nasuverse Servant class question

[the DragonBard]

From what I've seen, the Archer class is anyone who specializes in projectile weapons, which is why Future-Shirou and Gilgamesh were of that class. So, famous gunslingers like Doc Holiday, Jessie James, Billy the Kid, etc, would be Archers if they were ever summoned. That's correct?

If that's so, would anyone who used a hand weapon like an ax, hammer, etc, be a Saber, or is it specifically limited to sword wielders?

 

[Shiakou]

Depends on whether you want to use canon or not.

If you want Servant Classes Light, then yes, they should qualify. Also, you don't need to specialize in a type of weapon, generally you just need to have used that type of weapon competently. Some of the classes have their own rules (True Assassins need to be Hassans, there's only one Avenger, Berserkers need to have gone insane at some point) but yeah.

If you want to be Canon Compliant however, I suggest doing a lot more research involving supplementary materials where they go into more detail on the magic systems.

 

[Amodelsino]

Well I would be more worried about the fact they would be largely useless than whether they qualify.

 

[Scrib]

To qualify, they'd have to be Heroic Spirits, first, and that's a doubtful proposition. From the <a href='http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Heroic_Spirit' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Type Moon Wiki</a>:

Additionally, because modern armaments are widespread and gives instant power to anyone who wields them, it is hard for a hero who uses todayÆs firearms to be recognized as a unique being. Even the most outstanding modern gunslinger will be seen by the world as ôan expert that everybody can become through trainingö, not as a ôunique existenceö. If the conditions for the creation of a hero are met for a user of modern armaments, what will ascend to the rank of Heroic Spirit will be the gun instead, under the terms of ôthe best weapon of its timeö.

 

[nick012000]

From what I've seen, the Archer class is anyone who specializes in projectile weapons, which is why Future-Shirou and Gilgamesh were of that class. So, famous gunslingers like Doc Holiday, Jessie James, Billy the Kid, etc, would be Archers if they were ever summoned. That's correct?

If that's so, would anyone who used a hand weapon like an ax, hammer, etc, be a Saber, or is it specifically limited to sword wielders?

No. The Archer class relates to those Heroic Spirits whose primary strengths come from their Noble Phantasms. In the case of Archer and Gilgamesh, the reason why that's the case should be obvious.

It'd probably also apply to people like that Emperor of Japan who used the Kusanagi to control the wind to blow a grassfire away from his army.

 

[Kai-]

From what I've seen, the Archer class is anyone who specializes in projectile weapons, which is why Future-Shirou and Gilgamesh were of that class.á So, famous gunslingers like Doc Holiday, Jessie James, Billy the Kid, etc, would be Archers if they were ever summoned.á That's correct?

If that's so, would anyone who used a hand weapon like an ax, hammer, etc, be a Saber, or is it specifically limited to sword wielders?

No. The Archer class relates to those Heroic Spirits whose primary strengths come from their Noble Phantasms. In the case of Archer and Gilgamesh, the reason why that's the case should be obvious.

It'd probably also apply to people like that Emperor of Japan who used the Kusanagi to control the wind to blow a grassfire away from his army.

I'm reasonably sure the Archer class is characterized by the usage of projectiles in addition to powerful noble phantasms.

Additionally, because modern armaments are widespread and gives instant power to anyone who wields them, it is hard for a hero who uses todayÆs firearms to be recognized as a unique being. Even the most outstanding modern gunslinger will be seen by the world as ôan expert that everybody can become through trainingö, not as a ôunique existenceö. If the conditions for the creation of a hero are met for a user of modern armaments, what will ascend to the rank of Heroic Spirit will be the gun instead, under the terms of ôthe best weapon of its timeö.

Fuyuki mentions the weapon needs to have a soul as well (Since the rest of the explanation is cut/pasted from fuyuki).

Anyone up for some Saber!Derflinger (talking sword from znt) crackfic?

 

[Amodelsino]

But Deflinger never got any props. He would need to be recognized by the people as being the hero first.

I could see how he possibly could be though (obviously not in ZnT, but some theoretical universe). It would be kind of cool if the legends attributed the Gandalfr power to him rather than his wielders, and so his NP is that his wielder essentially becomes the Gandalfr by proxy.

All Sentient Weapon Holy Grail War GOOOOOOOOOOO!

EDIT: I just realized how absurdly broken Shirou would be in such a situation. He could literally use the other servants against themselves.

 

[Cherry_lover]

No. The Archer class relates to those Heroic Spirits whose primary strengths come from their Noble Phantasms. In the case of Archer and Gilgamesh, the reason why that's the case should be obvious.

I don't think that's true, because otherwise many actual Archers wouldn't fit into the class, which is just plain absurd. Archer is a ranged class, with NPs that allow them to attack from long distance.

 

[Watashiwa]

To qualify, they'd have to be Heroic Spirits, first, and that's a doubtful proposition. From the <a href='http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Heroic_Spirit' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Type Moon Wiki</a>:

Additionally, because modern armaments are widespread and gives instant power to anyone who wields them, it is hard for a hero who uses todayÆs firearms to be recognized as a unique being. Even the most outstanding modern gunslinger will be seen by the world as ôan expert that everybody can become through trainingö, not as a ôunique existenceö. If the conditions for the creation of a hero are met for a user of modern armaments, what will ascend to the rank of Heroic Spirit will be the gun instead, under the terms of ôthe best weapon of its timeö.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Nasu can choke on a brick. If his definition of heroism disregards modern heroics (which it does), then he has no idea what being a hero means. It isn't about big bulging muscles and swords; it's about inspiring people to do better, be better. Modern heroes still do that.

 

[nairit]

See, what Nasu was doing wasn't that he was saying that we don't have Heroes in our time, but more that we don't have Heroes that we immortalize through song and legend. In our time, where rationality is observed above all else( I mean overall ) skepticism makes someone becoming a unique existence that can be described as such to be nigh impossible.

Its not that we don't have heroes, it's that we don't have mystical all-special, shiny people that become larger than life.

 

[Watashiwa]

See, what Nasu was doing wasn't that he was saying that we don't have Heroes in our time, but more that we don't have Heroes that we immortalize through song and legend. In our time, where rationality is observed above all else( I mean overall ) skepticism makes someone becoming a unique existence that can be described as such to be nigh impossible.

Its not that we don't have heroes, it's that we don't have mystical all-special, shiny people that become larger than life.

 

[Professional Cynic]

Umm, in terms of far reaching world impact, Hitler qualifies at the very least as an Anti-hero. He has been immortalized in stories and tales since. Supernatural powers have been attributed to him.

Rasputin is another one. Famous durability and purported mystical powers.

What about Hans-Ulrich Rudel or Erich Hartmann? For Rudel, 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship (the Marat), 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down in a Stuka. In terms of pure killing shit, this is at least the equal of several FSN heroes. For Hartmann, 352 confirmed aerial kills, an Ace of Aces if there ever was one.

 

[Shiakou]

Umm, in terms of far reaching world impact, Hitler qualifies at the very least as an Anti-hero.? He has been immortalized in stories and tales since.? Supernatural powers have been attributed to him.

Possibly yes. Mind you, he'd be a very weak Eirei; his fame might qualify him but he still needs to stand on his own (actual) skills, which he has none. Well, he might have an EX in Charisma.

Rasputin is another one.á Famous durability and purported mystical powers.

Another possibility.

What about Hans-Ulrich Rudelá or Erich Hartmann?á For Rudel, 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship (the Marat), 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down in a Stuka.á In terms of pure killing shit, this is at least the equal of several FSN heroes.á For Hartmann, 352 confirmed aerial kills, an Ace of Aces if there ever was one.

See, this is where you begin to misunderstand what it means to be an Eirei. It's not about how many people you kill, although that helps. It's about being a legend, and a very specific kind of legend.

In the Nasuverse, the Excalibur is only a powerful NP because of King Arthur, not the other way around. Aside from Shirou (and he has a Reality Marble to hax this), anyone else who tries to use it will find it's just another typical sword, that is, if they can use it at all. But with the Nasuverse's King Arthur, Excalibur really is a beam-spamming sword with an immortality-granting sheathe.

Can you say the same about Erich Hartman? Can you say that his weapons, his guns, his planes, truly, mystically, belong to him, in the same way that Excalibur is Arthur's? Can Erich Hartman make his planes do, not only the improbable, but the impossible? I'm not talking just being able to blow up a few hundred planes over the course of a war, I'm talking about being able to shoot beams of light, eat souls, and go mach ten kind of plane.

If Erich Hartman had a skill where he could take a plane, any plane, by himself, and it would suddenly become death incarnate despite all logical evidence saying it's impossible (like say, a propeller driven plane managing to reach mach seven in a climb when Erich, and only Erich, controls it), then this might apply. Otherwise, no.

TLDR: For a modern hero with modern weapons to apply, they need to have mystically exceeded the logical limits of their modern weaponry and made said weaponry theirs. A man with a machine gun taking down ten thousand soldiers is nothing. A man with a machine gun taking down every alien craft in Independence Day and War of the Worlds combined might qualify.

 

[Professional Cynic]

Rudel probably counts for doing the impossible of shooting down nine fighter planes with a Stuka and he was the only person to become an ace in a Stuka. Sinking a battleship with a single bomb. Should be impossible, but his airstrike got a direct hit on the magazine, breaking the ship in two. Rudel was pretty much death incarnate in a Stuka.

EDIT: Or you can use the Legend of Koizumi version who does seem to have magic powers.

 

[nick012000]

Umm, in terms of far reaching world impact, Hitler qualifies at the very least as an Anti-hero.á He has been immortalized in stories and tales since.á Supernatural powers have been attributed to him.

Possibly yes. Mind you, he'd be a very weak Eirei; his fame might qualify him but he still needs to stand on his own (actual) skills, which he has none. Well, he might have an EX in Charisma.

He'd have the Spear of Destiny, which would probably help in that regard.

 

[Prince Charon]

Most of the people on <a href='http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Badass of the Week</a> ought to qualify, to one degree or another. Not all, perhaps, but most. Of course, a lot of them aren't modern.

Hey, what class are people like Bruce Lee, David Carradine, and Chuck Norris?

 

[Shiakou]

Hey, what class are people like Bruce Lee, David Carradine, and Chuck Norris?

HAX class.

Rudel probably counts for doing the impossible of shooting down nine fighter planes with a Stuka and he was the only person to become an ace in a Stuka. Sinking a battleship with a single bomb. Should be impossible, but his airstrike got a direct hit on the magazine, breaking the ship in two. Rudel was pretty much death incarnate in a Stuka.

Still not epic enough. Sinking a battleship with a single bomb and shooting down nine planes in one battle is theoretically possible, if practically impossible. With today's technology, its even possible to sink a whole fleet with one bomb.

What you have to look for is epicness on the level of what Nasuverse Eirei are capable of.

Arturia wasn't just really good with a sword. She sword-spammed lasers, she had demigods and wizards for companions, she fought trolls, giants, dragons and monster hounds, and she could wear a dress and still make people think she was the epitome of manliness.

Hercules was so strong, he wrestled divine snakes as a baby and moved on to demonic lions and hydras in adulthood. He was so buff, he once cleaned a stable the size of Manhattan by diverting a river, so strong he once volunteered to hold the sky up. He was so full of life, you had to kill him twelve times before he died, and then he had to help you kill himself. While on fire.

Medea was so magical she could float and rain lasers, so beautiful dead men would rise up again to fight for her, and so convincing she could make you believe that killing your own father would be for his own good.

Medusa was the epitome of beauty and human perfection, born from the waves and foam just like Aphrodite herself. She could kill you without a glance and make you hard with just one look.

So on and so forth, and these weren't embellishments in the Nasuverse but facts. Had the Internet existed during Hercules time, we'd be calling them Hercules Facts instead of Chuck Norris Facts. These people became legends because of themselves, and their weapons were powerful because the people who used them were powerful. Rudel outside his plane is still just a normal, if physically fit, human. Arturia without Excalibur is still a dragon-blooded semi-immortal who was leading from the front when she was ninety years old and could pass for a teenager.

 

[shioran toushin]

If Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar AKA El Cid were to be an Eirei. What class he would be best suited for?

 

[Avider]

Excalibur is powerful because Excalibur is powerful.

Excalibur is an NP because of King Arthur.

However, without King Arthur, Excalibur will still be a freakishly powerful sword.

It would just be a Mystic Code/ultimate artifact instead of an NP.

 

[darthturtle]

See, what Nasu was doing wasn't that he was saying that we don't have Heroes in our time, but more that we don't have Heroes that we immortalize through song and legend. In our time, where rationality is observed above all else( I mean overall ) skepticism makes someone becoming a unique existence that can be described as such to be nigh impossible.?

Its not that we don't have heroes, it's that we don't have mystical all-special, shiny people that become larger than life.

Rider

 

[the DragonBard]

I'd say a lot of the wild west figures, Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, etc, might have counted.

 

[nairit]

waning: what follows is my interpretation. Take that as you will.

In response to dragonbard:

Not really. It's not like we deify them. We don't say that what they did was beyond the concept of human abilities. It's more that they defined the limits that modern men can achieve with enough practice.

Like, even now we say the King Arthur was a symbol of greatness. The heroes of today are not written about till everyone in the world hears about them, There might be a blurb somewhere in the newspaper about something some guy that every person who reads thinks was super awesome.

But we don't keep those people with us. They don't really inspire us as the Heroic Spirits did. With the technology we have, all outlandish feats are ruled to be either false or within our scope.

What we lack is not the heroes that are great or admirable or terrible enough that they will be remembered throughout time. The one person that even comes close in recent memory is Hitler and Gandhi.

But even they serve only as limits, not something beyond comprehension. We don't have stories about Hitler or Gandhi that we tell our children to make them believe in the possibility of heroes. Even Hitler, whose committed actions would once be considered horrible and unspeakable are still within our scope of understanding. To be a heroic spirit is to be considered beyond that limit.

What we lack in modern times is not heroes or heroic deeds that defy comprehension.

What we lack is belief

 

[Kai-]

What we lack in modern times is not heroes or heroic deeds that defy comprehension.

Half wrong.

We do have 'heroes' but we don't have heroes that are so amazing that when people hear of them their reaction is 'thats impossible' (aka defying comprehension).

Sure, modern day people are heroic and do pretty awesome things, but they aren't so far beyond the rest of humanity that someone else with sufficient training/luck couldn't do that.

 

[Elf]

Hey, what class are people like Bruce Lee, David Carradine, and Chuck Norris?

David Carradine would be a big no. He wasn't a martial artist. He had no mystery to him. The only thing he ever really did was steal a TV show from Bruce Lee's that should have been his.

As awesome as Chuck Norris is, I'd say no. He played a lot of heroes and was a bad ass, but he learned all that.

Now Bruce Lee . . . Honestly I would actually say yes. The man created the perfect martial art, he inspired countless others, he bridged gaps between cultures. There is a lot of mystery surrounding his death and he defied his own culture to teach others martial arts.

Plus he had abilities that were bordering on supernatural/super human. Speed, grace, being able to hit someone without actually touching them. Literally, his punches had so much force that he could throw one inches from someone and it would still knock that person flat on their ass.

Oh yeah, he also walked and fought again after doctors swore up and down that he'd be crippled and in a wheelchair for life after getting into a fight where the guy attacked Bruce after Bruce won and had his back turned.

Ironically, once Bruce was better he beat the SHIT out of that guy in a public exhibition match to show off Jeet Kun Do.

So, Bruce Lee would be one fucking awesome Servant.

 

[Prince Charon]

I wasn't asking if they could be, I was asking what class they might fit.

I take it you're a big fan of Bruce Lee, then? I agree that he was awesome, but your answer was unhelpful (and as for David Carradine, he had nothing, IIRC, to do with the decision not to cast Lee in the show Lee came up with - in fact, I'm not sure he knew about that, before he'd accepted the part).

EDIT: So, what class would a martial artist like that fit, and what sort of Noble Phantasm might Bruce Lee have?