Evangelion Shinji and Warhammer40k

Delta Green Friendly · Sep 26, 2010

bluepencil said:

Hum? Oh, sorry. Give me a few minutes. Haven't read the thread in a while now, was catching up.

And doing French to Greek translation, mind. Next time, send a PM to make sure I get the memo.
...

Ave Serenitas.
Ave Serenitas, Lunae Procer[a? As many titles of political power, it seems, according to my Gaffiot to exist only in the masculine.]/Princeps
Ave Serenitas, Victus Pector (literally "Living Chest/Breast/Thorax") Imperii

EDIT: After re-consulting my Latin grammar.

Ave Serenitas.
Ave Serenitas, Lunae Procer (literally "Eminent person.") / Princeps (literally "First amongst equals")
Ave Serenitas, Imperii Victus Pector.

Sdebeli · Sep 27, 2010

bluepencil said:

The first is a lot more maddening, since while a lot of us might like to relive our childhoods and not act like stupid little shits through it (though that is part of what being a child means), having to do it again and again and again... years of practice should mean he should within a lifetime be able to create a cult and rule the fucking world. Miracles are easy to arrange if you know the triggers; though the AU-ness might mitigate this some.

The second, the standard Time Loop scenario is more workable from a plot perspective. There's a twist I've planned for it, which will come out in the next chapter.

As for Ritsuko, it's in the snippet I'm working on right now.

Hence the entire problem

If he can repeat, why hasn't he conquered the world yet?

I"ll be waiting patiently

Antimatter · Sep 27, 2010

bluepencil said:

Why do you even need a time loop? There are beings with the knowledge, the cunning, and the patience to pull off what Gendo is doing.

The God of Change himself, and the Deceiver.

Both are frightening concepts. If ether is at work, then we have a serious problem on our hand.

If the Change God is pulling Gendo's strings, then no amount of randomness could effect his plans. Only the God Emperor himself could do that, and Shinji's not that powerful yet.

If the Deceiver is at work, then that might not even BE gendo. Why not raise his Necrons? Because if this universe is bleeding into 40k's, then the Eldar still own the stars, and he wouldn't stand a chance against them. But he has time, and perhaps, his eye on a world beyond the Damocles Gulf, just waiting to be seeded with intelligent life.

bluepencil · Sep 27, 2010

It took Javaal nine hundred years to create an extremely minor daemon formed out the memories and negative feelings of its populace. What does that imply?

sworded · Sep 27, 2010

bluepencil said:

That they're lazy?

I'm sure if they put some real effort into it they might have made 2!!

Antimatter · Sep 27, 2010

bluepencil said:

That chaos indeed exists? The Change God only needs a single moment of doubt to make you his pawn. If he exists, then Gendo would be just the type to attach a quintessence of his focus. Horus fell due to a doubt of his Father and brother's intentions.

I Remember the Chaos marine in Shinji's mind daring him to draw a chaos circle and see if it worked. So far, Shinji has resisted Chaos's whispers, instead aligning mostly with the Astares and Eldar.

What if his father wasn't that strong?

As for the necron angle? A bit harder to work, but the idea of Gendo slowly changing into a Necron lord would be interesting. Necrodermious replaces his deteriorating flesh. Those souls of the Black moon not used to give sentience to the Tau race are converted into pariahs, or simply offered to the C'than as sustenance. Nagisa ends up exiled on T'au, to eventually herold the greater good, and Gendo retires to a tomb world till the day when the stars align and his master is ready to move.

nairit · Sep 27, 2010

That shunting emotion off to the world is a a good stopgap measure?

Delta Green Friendly · Sep 27, 2010

bluepencil said:

Extreme moral and emotional purity. To a level that might get the Craftworld Eldar to respect them for a brief instant before they remember that Javaal is composed of dirty Mon'Keigh.

Sdebeli · Sep 27, 2010

sworded said:

That it takes a load of really bad stuff to make daemons appear. That, and time.
It took the moral collapse of the entire Eldar civilization to create Slaanesh, which at that times counted more than a few star systems, and more than billions in populace. Earth, even if you could turn it into an imperial hive world, is still a drop in the ocean in comparison.
And that's if we're taking into account that they actually exist, and are not a twisted figment of mortal imagination.

byakuryuu · Sep 27, 2010

I only got one thing to say to this fic now, and that's the fact that it's getting real old, real fast. Don't get me wrong, the premise was entertaining, but you're missing enough plot elements to classify it as dying.

I don't see Shinji struggling enough to be able to relate with him. He's an invincible hero, with no sign of block. Quite depressing from a literary point of view, as this had so much promise. Between declarations of loyalty and curbstomps... well, I have nothing to add, personally.

Literary technique is sound, just... well, development's ground to a standstill here. No cliffhangers, no jerking moments.

sailormink · Sep 28, 2010

It would be good to see Shinji be made a fool, at least one, to humble him. To show how very human he still is. he is mighty, yes, but he is still a teenage boy.

Also, the girls need a chance to show how awesome they are. Kirishima needs to be able to rise again, Mayumi needs to prove herself, Rei...needs to keep being Rei, Maya needs to show us what it means to be a Sister of Battle, and Misato....needs to Sober Up. oh, and Ritsuko needs to show us how much cooler she is than her dear, beloved smother....mother... :mmm:

Antimatter · Sep 28, 2010

sailormink said:

Ah, shinji was humbled. He lost to Nagisa, it was only Gendo's actions that kept him from being completely fucked over.

byakuryuu · Sep 28, 2010

Fair enough, but... here's a kicker. What about, instead of things going Shinji's way... why don't things go OUT of control for once? I mean, I can understand the Crazy Prepared thing, but, what about situations where Shinji CAN'T control? I know it sounds like standard EVA, but let's say... Shinji DOESN'T lose; that victory comes at a high price?

Maybe he knocks the Angels a new one... but unknowingly, his win costs him thousands, even millions of deaths in the counterattack? I can accept hot-blooded, I can accept 'Just As Planned', but ONE loss doesn't make a person 'Human'. It's continuous struggle, determination.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, but sometimes there's going to be need for bumps in the road for the protagonist. Situations spiraling out of control, the 'Win that feels more like a Defeat', the 'Resolution To Achieve' is what this fic's been missing lately.

Maybe I'm being hypocritical with all my previous Mary Sue fics in the olden days, but there's a great thing going on here, and I'd hate for this story NOT to evolve.

Peace out, and good luck.

bluepencil · Sep 30, 2010

Tactically, they just keep on winning. Strategically and politically, NERV just keeps on losing. After all, how much does it cost to make their equipment and repair their Evangelions? Tokyo-3 is a boomtown, but it's also one that's liable to go boom. You could, due to 2015 Japan's extremely good train system just commute to work, but high pay also means high inflation even further away from the city. There's a short-term economic impetus due to the resources needed, which explains a bit of popularity among the working man, but for those with the long view it's building a bubble that even if the world survives the Angel War it's going to send the Japanese economy crashing and burning as the UN military aid dry up.

The Evangelion is simply too damn huge to market correctly; one might as well try to find civilian uses for an Aircraft Carrier. Shiinji Ikari's solution is to funnel that into space exploration, to keep their ride rolling. Unfortunately, Nagisa IS ALREADY IN SPACE. The only reason ortillery doesn't rule all is because of AT-field dickery. Also, Gendo (and by extension, Kaworu) has the Lance of Longinus now. Think about what that allows.

It's the endzone now, by the way. There's no more room or reason to go with fits and starts. It's the eve of the final battle.

There was this snippet I removed from the piece:

Jonathan Thresh wondered if Sohryu realized just what it meant that EUROSOC had
to travel to meet her. On the face of it, it was only logical: she couldn't leave her
Unit 02. However, never before had nations experienced having whole armies
butchered over the span of a single day and then that maddeningly powerful enemy
destroyed in turn in less an hour. The Evangelion was too powerful to belong to any
one nation, and that Japan had all three of them was simply unbearable.

He looked aside to his French counterpart, Mr. Lefevre, and how much more the man
could take before exploding.

France had to grudgingly accept opening up her northern shores to resettlement by
the British and other northern nations. It was that these people were leaving their
own lands just so they won't starve and freeze do death that kept the French body
politic from threatening nukes; there wasn't anything left valuable enough to
threaten, and blasting the northern coastline would just blow fallout down into their
own important crop-growing regions. That, and while many cities sunk below the
waves, the submarine nuclear arsenals of other nations remained intact.

France, post-Impact, was more known for being irritability rather than for eating
cheese, and such as like that there. While for the sake of goodwill and basic human
decency, Lefevre could do nothing but to 'allow' the establishment of a 'mutual
cultural zone' along the northern shores, he could have taken some comfort in that at
least they were there only at France's suffrance. His nation had more than ample
military strength to push the refugees off the continent, or at least make the price of
their presence too costly, but everyone knew that they exercised the choice not to do
that.

Now- in the matter of hours, that was gone. Not since the Second World War had
Europe suffered such lightning defeats. He couldn't take much comfort in that at
least everyone suffered equally the loss of most of their armies. They were like a
hydra shorn of heads, and it was a good thing that Europe had already long bled out
most of its conquests urges.

"At least I was told Sohryu is more even-tempered than Ikari..." he whispered to
himself.

Thresh laughed suddenly, then tried to disguise it as a cough. Probably. She was
certainly far less bipolar. The girl at the far end of the room tried not to look too
bored.

"Ah, so this is your best estimate? Don't worry, we will do all we can to help." said
the New Council representative. did not survive Nagisa's blast.

Challenge glittered in his eyes. "But we demand that
all psychics, registered or active, be immediately removed. They have failed in the
task spun to the UN, and if they were not working for the Earth's Cradle, then the
false sense of security the provided only contributed the damage. We will tolerate
their presence no longer."

Feckeldraft in his yellow robes sat to the left of Asuka. Seated further out were the
rest of UN PSYCANA (Psychic Active Administration) in white clothes with the
their symbol; two eyes one over the other over an I-bar. "While we accept that we
have failed in our mandate, don't you realize you're sending... all of you... you're
condemning your own citizens to what's most likely the final battlefield?" asked the
old adept.

"Da. But here or there, in the end there is no difference. We only have NERV's word
that the Angels really want something in their geofront? What if they are only
attacking because the Evangelions are there?"

Asuka narrowed her gaze. Hurriedly the roturnd representative added "No insult
intended, of course, but concentrating whatever 'assets' on Tokyo-3 would help
protect the city until this 'Human-Angel War' is done." Like it or not, there just
was no defending the rest of the world anymore; there was nothing special there
that the enemy may want- and the Angels did not seem to seek Earth for conquest.

"What about Nagisa?" asked Lorenzo Corales, Prime Minister of Spain. "There is
something he wants, and that's manpower."

and etc.

Anyway:

-----------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

Was it just her, or were the lights really getting weaker the closer she got to
Ritsuko's room? She got an entire wing of the hospital to herself, and Misato
shivered under the eerie silence. She didn't believe in ghosts and grudges, but
Tokyo-3 had seen enough horrors and deaths to support making a horror movie
script someday.

But, in contrast with the gloom outside, Ritsuko's room was well-lit. The blonde was
sitting up on her bed and working with a laptop. "Hey! Aren't you supposed to be
resting?" Misato asked in what she hoped was a friendly enough tone.

Ritsuko took off her glasses and sighed. "Oh. It's you." There was whirring noise with
her every move. "And I am resting. That's why I'm lying down here instead of at the
lab. Hmf. I suppose I should thank you for having some of my equipment moved
down here."

Misato waved and smiled. "Um... yeah. So. How are you doing?"

Ritsuko gestured around. "More bored than anything, really. I just never noticed until
just how... slow... we live." She turned her attention back to her computer. "I
suppose it's a matter of perspective. Ennui is the greatest enemy of immortals."

"That's a plugsuit, isn't it?" The hospital gown could not fully cover the shiny black
suit, and there was something about the slick form-fitting lines, when combined with
the soft green cloth, that seemed positively indecent. Misato quirked her lips in
an odd smile. "Did you just happen to have an adult-sized plugsuit lying around, or...?"

A plugsuit, with its environment controls, was like bondage leather that breathes.
One could wear one semi-comfortably for days; that was how they were designed.
There were also the uncomfortable insertion points for the plumbing. Ritsuko's bland
look was overflowing with unspoken sarcasm. "I'll have you know this was custom-
made."

Misato laughed weakly, feeling embarrassed instead. "How are you feeling?"

"I'm sure you've already gotten a report from Sakamoto and his ilk."

"They're not exactly helpful. You're not being helpful. Come on, Rits-chan. We're
friends, aren't we? I just want to know if you're okay." Misato rubbed the nape of her
neck. "Um. Doesn't that... hurt?"

Ritsuko turned around slightly to show the cabling attached firmly to the back of her
skull. "No, it doesn't. The brain itself doesn't really feel, but if you must know, there
is this sensation, it's heavy. That's why this..." she touched the overlapping plates
running down the back of her suit. "is fixed into my spinal column. An armature and
exoframe reinforces my spine and bypasses muscle control. In some ways, this is
more efficient than trying to repair my nerves bundles, I don't have to do open
surgery into my arms, if I can just manipulate them from the outside. It's based on
the technology we used in rebuilding Kirishima's arm, so I still get some feeling even
through the suit."

Misato looked pained. "Ritsuko... I'm sorry..."

"Why? You had nothing to do with this." Ritsuko looked away, and her voice softened.

"You're controlling your own body like it's a puppet. That's... no right. Who did this to
you? It was Gendo wasn't it?! He betrayed us to join the Cradle!"

"Hah. That presupposes he had any loyalty to us in the first place. NERV was that
man's tool, not vice versa. I pity instead that little band of pompous misfits."

"Ritsuko, is this really it? You're going to wear that for the rest of your life? I can't
forgive him." Fighting for humanity's sake was one thing, but this was personal now.
She wanted to protect her Children, but as young gods striding the battlefield in their
engines of destruction, there was only so much she could do without tainting their
ability to fight.

This time, she wanted to put her arms around Gendo's twiggly little neck and pop
his head right off. It's all become so much so suddenly.

'Revenge, is it?' she heard a distant oily whisper. 'Power. You want power. To protect
the weak and the helpless, hold on to your hate.'

Misato blinked and looked around. What was that just now?

Ritsuko still looked unconcerned. While it was indeed based on the technology used
in Kirishima's artificial arm, it was also true that so were the myomer control systems
in Powered Armor. She actually pitied Misato.

"There's no need to worry about me. I know why you're here. There isn't much we
can do but wait. Your little boy will come out of that sleep as soon as it pleases
him." Ritsuko snorted and muttered something unpleasant. "And don't worry about
Ayanami. Her body is more robust than that. Worst comes to worst, she can always
be replaced."

Misato winced. "About that... did you hear that the old man's been arrested? They
want to have inspectors poking around, and you to make a statement. If you're fit
enough to return to duty, you're fit enough to talk to the press. Ritsuko..." and here
she sighed heavily. "Is there anything you can say that isn't heavily incriminating?"

"Heh. I see you've finally gotten around to asking Ibuki. Has she shown you Terminal
Dogma yet?"

"Um, no, but I kinda get what it is. What I don't get is why we had to hide it in the
first place. It's what the Angels want, isn't it? It's not like anyone else can try to steal
it, it's too big."

"Mmm. It is referenced as the Second Angel. You're not the first person to think it's
strange. Just another weird and seemingly pointless policy decision- but it's not its
location we wanted to hide."

"Ritsuko. We're friends, aren't we? Depending on what you know, once this thing is
over... they're talking crimes against humanity for what you've been doing to the
clones."

The scientist laughed coarsely and set aside her computer. "So the old man's singing
that sweetly? He's trying to get back into the good graces of the government, so
there would be someone to pick up the pieces once they're finished tearing us
down?"

"We can't let this happen." Misato moaned. "We won! Why are we being punished?"

Ritsuko sighed and lay back on her bed. "Because what we've done is just the latest
in a history of poor decisions. We're not wise..." she said numbly while starting at the
ceiling. "We had so many chances, we know what we should be doing, but we keep
on doing the wrong things." Ritsuko put her right hand over her eyes. "That bastard.
He left me behind... dammit. Dammit! He couldn't even be decent enough just to kill
me if I'm useless now."

"Ritsuko?"

"I envy you, you know that? You can hate Ikari ... Gendo... all you want. I just...
at least you KNOW what to feel. I don't know anything! I'm just... here."

"Wait... are you saying... ugh!"

"Hah. Ironic isn't it?" Ritsuko removed her hand, but kept her eyes closed behind her
glasses. "For all that some whisper you slept your way into your post as NERV's
tactical commander, I'm the one that's really assuming the position." She grimaced.
"Not unless you go pull down under your bedsheets the other Ikari, you raging shotacon."

Misato smiled wryly. Ritsuko being so passive-agressive, just like old times. She
always seemed so aloof, and combative when trying to express herself emotionally.
"It's okay, Rits-chan. This doesn't really change anything. We're still here. I'm here
for you, you know... however much that means."

"Are we friends, Misato?"

"What? Of course we are! Aren't we?"

Ritsuko opened and closed her palms. "That Ritsuko Akagi you know from college,
she seems so far away now. The Ritsuko Akagi that Maya Ibuki thinks she knows...
who is she? The Ritsuko that's your friend, the one you could trust... when did she
die? There was a time when I was really sure." Ritsuko turned her head to "We could
have been..." She sighed and shook her head.

"Yeeah... this philosophy talk? It's bullshit." She rapped Ritsuko on the forehead with
her knuckles.

"Ow. Misato, what the hell."

"You've been moping around here alone too long, I think. Hey, let's go do
something. No, wait, shit. If you show up out there, then the commitee starts the
inquest. We gotta sneak by the papparazi."

Ritsuko laughed weakly. "I can't nag you tot study from the exams anymore,
Katsuragi, but the inquest sounds close enough."

"Oh, Right." She groaned and tugged at her long hair. "What did we do wrong this
time? It's just money. We're fighting for our lives here..."

"That's a lie."

Misato blinked. "What?"

"The one who could come closest to defeating us, the Earth's Cradle, they never had
any intention of starting Impact. If they could beat us, then they could handle any
Angels that may appear. They're monsters, but then we're not that much different."

"If I'm in charge, then I'm not going to start Third Impact! I'll do anything to stop it."

"If you let Evangelion technology proliferate, then it's inevitable." Ritsuko replied
softly. "Misato. Killing me and destroying the MAGI's database will, at best, delay
Eva tech recovery by five to ten years. I just want you to remember that."

Misato sucked in her breath. "What are you saying? No way I'm going to let that
happen too. Is it... Gendo's still alive, isn't he? Shit." She began to gnaw on her
fingernails again. "Kaji's trying to stall for time, but I still don't know what this is
about. Rits-chan... I don't know what to do."

"That's a lie too."

"But..." Misato winced, but a flicker of guilty knowledge passed across her
expression. She moaned "I don't want to..."

"I'm just a -resource-." Ritsuko added. "A civilian. You're a soldier."

It's your job to protect me; Ritsuko took off her glasses and looked faintly hopeful.

Misato jerked back in surprise, even blushing for no reason she could readily identify,
then grinned. "But if I move things around... it's exactly what they hope I'd do. It's
the excuse they're expecting to kick me out of command."

"Gendo's not the type for pillow talk, you know?" Ritsuko said offhand. "His plans, he
just keeps on using us as pawns, no one ever gets wind of his his full intent." She
smirked. "But you know about Plans One to Nine, right? Those little brain puzzles
about what we could do with an Evangelion in open warfare? Gendo, of course, knew
them, even if he didn't really care. I don't think things were ever supposed to get
that far... with him around we were never really meant to 'win'. But I just so happen
to know from someone else that they now go up to thirteen."

"Pillow talk?!" Misato echoed in a squelched pitch.

"The thirteenth is named the Death Star scenario for reasons I'd rather not specify."

--
--

Anyway, there's still room for one more POV before the conclusion of this portion, which should have Tokyo-3's staff go - fuck. Fuck. Fuck. I don't care what it takes, wake that kid up, we need someone to take the public eye out of this clusterfuck. Anything from the previous chapter that you want answered or discussed a bit further?

edit:

I wanted the battles to be like dees:
<a href='http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=173729' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=173729</a>

I failz.

::wails::

edit second:
More Yang!

The two were walking towards the main gate, obligated to attend a political
dinner at a sumptuous Kyoto-2 hotel. "The Japanese government can't order us to
in... but this is the best time to take control of NERV, isn't it? Ikari proves just how
risky it is to trust blindly without full knowledge."

As before, it mattered little which one. "Not UNIG, no, but then we're only one
regiment." Yang smiled thinly. "A three-headed beast- Japanese infantry, Russian
and Chinese armor, and American naval and air support." He searched for the
Big Dipper in the sky. "Let me ask you the question instead: do you feel that it's
treason to stand against the military of your own country?"

The soldier grimaced. "Dammit, Yang. Look at it from my point of view. I didn't
ask for this! What would you do?"

"It's a question of loyalty, isn't it? Only you can answer that."

"My men... even if we fight, the rest of the JSSDF can just bury us under the
weight of numbers. But Yang, it's no secret that your Army is massing hundreds
of thousands of troops at the coastal ports. What are you planning?

Yang grimaced. The price of his intervention in the Korean debacle was the use of
several North Korean ports. Starving refugees had flooded into Manchuria, but that
was more or less all right, since they needed the manpower anyway. Then, in 2004,
taking advantage of the international funding for Project E and the need to shift
the massive amounts of metal and equipment necessary for Evangelion construction,
Yang ordered the creation of a new type of fleet-handling facilities facing the
East Sea and to protect the balance of power of those sharing the Northern Resource
Area. Such action could possible been treated as belligerent, but Yang had made
clear that China respected the thousands of nukes that the Russia still had, and
it was a more refined reflection of Vladivostok anyway.

Yang considered the end of mass starvations as his crowning glory during his period
of martial law. Before he stepped down from power and back into obscurity, his was
a well-fed and well-motivated army. Two million were gathered in Manchuria. Five
more were waiting near the Yellow Sea. The military were being drawn from as far
as the Indian border.

And now, of course, the UN NAVY deployed to cover various possibilities. Submarines
were thick around the Sea of Japan. Boomers, nuclear ICBM-carrying submarines,
barely even tried to hide themselves. Everything was pointed at Tokyo-3.

This shoddy-looking man turned the Chinese Navy from a joke pre-Impact, into
one capable of projecting force even without expensive Carriers. Yang was a devotee
of missile saturation to overcome air patrol screens and antimissile defenses. So
many foreign ships around and within range of the shore batteries - did he intend for
this to happen? In one stroke, Admiral Yang could -end- any other claim for the
oceans of the world for the forseeable future.

bluepencil · Oct 15, 2010

--
--

Kaji looked far scruffier than the usual. The door guard considered that his invitation
may be faked or stolen, except that Kaji's JSSDF ID had a picture just as grungy as
his current appearance. His tuxedo was expensive and well-cut, but it looked as if he
hadn't had a good night's sleep for days.

The technical term for it, he remembered, was schmoozing. Cozying up to the rich
and the powerful and pretendingto be fascinated at their interests. He smirked as he
walked around, picking up cocktails off passing waiters' trays. Rich, maybe, but a lot
here were only -pretending- they were still powerful. He looked around at the high-
powered assembly, and with his careful intelligence picked out the less than a handful
there that held any real power.

One of those who thought they held power by acting as a middleman to those with
more direct means of invoking their will, approached him hurriedly.

"Where have you been?!" hissed the Special Advisor to the Minister of Defense, Taro
Kusonoki. "The Prime Minister gave his speech, and it was obvious you weren't there
when he mentioned you by name."

"Katsuragi chose not to take this invitation. It's not like I have any serious incentive
to come here."

"You can bed you bitch all you want, Ryouji, but don't let it rot your brain. If you're
too compromised to do your duty, then we'll find someone else to do it for you. Is
that incentive enough for you?"

Kaji narrowed his eyes at the bald threat. Then, he grinned rakishly. "Not really. You
have more to lose than I do."

Kosunoki snorted. "Come on. The generals are refusing to give a straight answer to
the Prime Minister without you there."

"I already gave my report on NERV's little dirty secrets. Wait... it's not NERV that's
the problem, isn't it? Is Yang here? Why don't you just ASK HIM if he's going to take
sides?" At the sour look on the functionary's face, Kaji sighed. "No... of course
not." Typical approach to an uncomfortable situation- rituals of propriety. It would be
impolite to be so direct. "As someone supposed to be a neutral party to all of this... I
suppose it's up to me to get in his face and risk his displeasure, right?"

Kusonoki nodded and turned away. Kaji shrugged again and followed him in. Even if
that was a lie that would fool no one. Or that Yang wouldn't give a damn either way.

-

Yang was not unused to the sumptous luxury a first-class hotel offered, though
mostly from his upbringing hepaid more attention to the flow of staff and
entertainers. He'd chatted briefly with one of the waiters and requested for the young
man to keep him supplied with red wine and some little snacks every time the waiter
made a full circuit through the hall. One wasn't supposed to give tips to waiters in a
formal function, Yang knew, after all he'd been in the same job when he was that
age. So he gave the young man a note to his supervisor mentioning that he
approved of the prompt and attentive service. Just his signature alone made it worth
something as an authograph.

Hong Kong, pre-Impact, just a few years after being given back to China. The former
British colony fared quite well from the regime change, despite having to rein in a bit
how much fun they could make of the mainland. If given a few more years, specially
with the dot-com bubble burst, they could have served to spearhead deep into the
global market with cheap electronics, taking the edge off Japan's dominance in that
market segment.

Yang stood by a large picture window, facing the east. Old and new Kyoto glittered
before him, and the seas beyond broke up the moon into shards. The waters were
past the horizon were known as the Sea of Japan, or the Korean Sea, or even by
some as the Northeast China Sea, but one he just referred to as the East Sea. In
his mind he saw the contiginous arc that were his Navy's operations area, hugging
the coast of mainland Asia.

One last taste of the salty ocean air, ah, if only he wasn't trapped by this facile
little party. Tokyo 3's coast was nice and all, but it faced east, not the waters
where he began his journey into command. Ironically, it was only in the last stages
of the Reunification that he was actually an admiral.

His moment of contemplation was quickly broken. "Yang-sensei!" he heard someone
exclaim joyfully. He turned to see Hideo Kurata, the current MEXT (Minister of Education,
Culture, Sports, Science, etc). along with several other socialites. Yang pasted a smile on
his face.

"Ahh, Yang-sensei, have you been introduced to Miharu-hakase, the Dean of Neo-
Kyoto University's Department of History?

"No. A pleasure, Doctor Miharu."

"Likewise, Yang-sensei. I understand you're something of a historian yourself? That's
fascinating."

Yang chose not to mention that he had a similar Ph.D., it was just that people kept
forgetting it in their effort not to add 'Admiral' or 'Premier' in front of his name. He
kept smiling. Yang the Teacher was a title he much preferred.

"And this is Miss Miranda Coffrey, publisher of African Free Press and chairperson of
the Golden Apple Foundation."

"Delighted to meet you at last." The tall woman affected a confused look a moment.
"Professor Yang."

"Thank you, Miss Coffrey. I'm an admirer of your work."

"Not as much as I admire yours, I'm sure. We still remember fondly your time spent
in Africa."

I never went there; Yang wanted to say. I just offered the UN the use of the Chinese
Army for peacekeeping, since we were the ones with the surplus in manpower. If the
United States Navy formed the bowstring of the UN NAVY, then the People's Army
was the unsubtle sledgehammer of the UN ARMY.

It was India and Pakistan that kicked off the nuclear exchange, it was just convenient
China was close by to pick up the pieces. Yang was adamant, it would be the height
of stupidity to try to expand influence and take new territory. They barely had
enough food to feed themselves, nowhere even near what's needed for adventurism.

There were actually very few 'threats' to China's existence. Everybody was busy Post-
Impact just trying to survive. Land grabs and 'living space' was so last century. With
the reduction of world population from over four billion to just one and a half, there
was plenty of slack. With the UN taking care of supplies for peacekeeping and
humanitarian purposes, Yang bargained his military away from having to use up the
stores needed to reboot Chinese agriculture and economy.

The Suez Canal was less than half a world away, after all. Unless your name was
Harlock, and your ship bearing Arcadia on its side, pirates were not allowed to exist
in Yang's oceans.

Coffrey was keeping her face in profile, trying to look alluring. She was disappointed
slightly at just how -short- Yang was in person, but still intrigued. In the Great
Game, Yang preferred to act as if he always held a low hand, tempting others to
keep raising the stakes until they had far more to lose than he would, no matter
what it that he'd choose to do.

"This is Satoshi Huoko, of Houko Construction." There was less cheer in the Minister's
face as he made the introduction. "I trust you already know each other?"

"No, but..." Yang chose to adress the tall, round-faced man first. "I've definitely
heard of you, mister Houko." Yang bowed slightly. "How difficult not to notice the
little treasure box symbol all over our sites."

Houko smiled widely. Though quite wealthy, only recently had the land developer
gained enough clout to be invited into high-power gatherings. The only reason he
was there was because Coffrey had been pumping him for information about Tokyo-3
when Cultural Minister Kurata came along to gather foils for drawing out Yang's
intentions. "I'm honored to be of help, Yang-sensei."

"Of course you are." Yang replied with unfeigned good humor. "You're building a
monument that equals the Pyramids of Egypt, the Great Wall of Q'in, and the Great
Dams of the world."

The man's wealth was linked to Tokyo-3, and he lived in the same hometown as
the younger Ikari. His loyalty was only far too blatant, which meant he must not be
ignored while at the same time limiting just how useful he'd be. A mere businessman
like him should not be of any interest to a personage such as Yang.

'What are you trying to say, Yang?' the others wanted to ask. 'Ignoring me/us in
favor of someone who supports Tokyo-3 so completely... is this a hint or a threat?'

"We're all expecting great things from the Treasure Box." Yang added, in a tone
almost child-like in its eagerness. "Although I suppose it will have to wait until this
war on Earth is done."

Houko bowed again. "We'll try our best not to disappoint, Yang-sensei."

'Wait, what?'

The two shared a knowing look, amused at the blank stares from the three power
elite. Plan Eleven. They nodded to each other. Plan Nine was the invasion of the
moon, the prosecution of war into and around the Moon's orbit. Plan Eleven was war
within and around Mars. Twelve was the utilization of the entirety of Sol for conflict.
Thirteen was the pursuit of war into another star system.

"Your pardon, Yang-sensei..." Dr. Miharu coughed into his fist. The old man stared at
Yang. "This war. Do you think it's nearing it's conclusion?"

Yang blinked. "Now, pardon me, what? What makes you think that?" He reached over
and took a cocktail glass from a passing waiter. "This is a war where we are utterly
opaque to the enemies numbers, disposition, or even if they have ANY logistical trail."

Dr. Miharu smirked. "In that case, is it really a war after all? It's like being attacked
by beasts from the forests. Can it ever end without comitting genocide on the
Angels? Now that we know that alien life really exists... it sounds such a waste to
spend so much on just killing each other. Is it not a good enough end to war just for
both to stop fighting?"

"And speaking of which..." Miranda Coffrey cut in with a wan smile. "It seems now
that UN has been preparing for the Angels' return, for these last ten years. Were you
aware of this, Professor Yang?"

He nodded. But of course. The sinkhole that used to be Beijing-2, or Shenyang,
proved China's complicity in NERV affairs. They paid for it in the loss of their new
capital city and millions of lives.

The woman's expression was searching. Why wasn't Yang showing even the slightest
bit of anger? If NERV hadn't put their Evangelion production site there, it would
never have been a target. "If you knew then what you do now, what would you have
done? What if you had been put in charge of the defense, instead of..." and here she
gimaced slightly. "Ikari."

Both; her tone implied the answer to the unspoken common query. Houko looked
sour, while the two other Japanese men nodded in agreement. Yang wanted to
laugh.

"If I have been put in charge, I'd have said this was a war that simply CANNOT be
won. The applicable plan would be to somehow exhaust the Angels against a
prepared killing field- which, incidentally, is what NERV had done with Tokyo-3. It's
working. The problem is that we have no way of knowing if the enemy is anywhere
even close to being sapped of their reserves." He took a sip of his drink. "And now
with the added complication of the Cradle... it's impossible. Trying to hold ground
will lead to us eventually being worn down to nothing. Unfortunately we lack any
capability to counterattack."

"So you agree then! Somehow we must negotiate or encourage the Angels to stop
attacking- violence is no solution here. We can at least -talk- to those of the Cradle."

'If you knew what I now know; violence is the perfect solution here.' Yang thought.
'Because we DO have the capability to counterattack. The Angels aren't -aliens-
at all. And there IS a way to get rid of all of them all at once.'

"Normally, you would be correct. This is not a normal situation." He smiled thinly. "I
prefer not to comment on that until we have sufficient information."

"Information at NERV." Minister Kurata said smugly. "Information that's being
hidden from us. Information is power, wouldn't you say, Yang-sensei? If we had
some other way of handling the Angels, we could focus more on dealing with
the threat of the Cradle... and Ikari." He flicked a look at Houko. "Reducing NERV's
power is just a side-effect, but breaking a monopoly can only help our economy."

"Ah. Right. The high wages around Tokyo-3 is pumping inflation elsewhere. You're
experiencing a little bubble right now, aren't you?"

Little? Heh. If the war ends, UN funding dries up. Then as Tokyo-3 implodes, it
would take the rest of the country along with it. Yang took another sip. Uknown
to them, there was a way out of it- the Treasure Box. Houko looked completely
unworried. Unfortunately, it was not something they could reveal just yet.

It would only work if a quick, decisive end to the war could be forced. Even more
unfortunate- the way to end the war looks just as bad as simply losing the war.

"We can get through this." Kurata was saying. "Peace is worth fighting for."

"Oh you have no idea..." Yang murmured.

The music's tempo changed into one suitable for dancing. Coffrey licked her
full red lips and put her hands on her hips. "Well now, gentlemen, if you'll excuse
me-" and turning to Yang. "Professor, would you care to dance?"

"No, thank you." was the quick reply. "I'd rather stay here, if you don't mind." He
looked pointedly out the picture window again.

Coffrey laughed gaily, shrugging off the rejection. "Oh come now, professor. I'm
sure you do know how to dance." She moved to get a look outside. "What's so
interesting out there, anyway?"

Yang gave a slight sigh. "Mm. Life. The universe. Everything." He shook his head.
"But if you want to hear something more concrete- eight million men and more
submarines crowded in one sea than any other point and perhaps never again
in history." Then in a whisper, seemingly forgetting where he was, "...and these
hours just wasting away..."

She looked at the nervous faces of the Japanese men around her and laughed
again. "Oh, Yang- thank you for encouraging investment in Africa. You had the
chance for conquest back then... and now, you're here." It was quite obvious
to her. Why would China attack when Yang wasn't there to command their strategy?
Japan had enough edge in technology and UN NAVY support. If Yang had something
so unsubtle in mind, then he wouldn't have put himself in the hands of a future
enemy.

There was a flicker, and suddenly it seemed as if Yang had... changed. There was
just the slightest bit of a smile on his face, his eyes narrowing slightly, and yet it was
one that seemed to say 'Bitch, -please-. You think you know who I am?'

The woman stepped back, frightened, then sniffed as she hurriedly turned away.
Yang gave the others a look that clearly communicated 'get the hell out of my face'.
The men too retreated, frowning but somewhat satisfied. Just as they expected from
a gaijin, to be so rude and uncultured. Houko however, seemed a bit more hurt by
the hostility.

He looked back with a faintly betrayed gaze. Yang just sighed, shook his head, and
stared off into the balcony again.

At that same moment, a flotilla was already halfway across the Pacific. It had the
standard carrier group formation, except that the center was a large modified tanker
rather than an aircraft carrier. Yang looked at his watch. Sixteen hours. He took a
careful sip of the wine in his hand. Eleven years of not touching anything stronger
than tea, gone. He deserved it now.

'Just a little bit longer now, Mei.' A somewhat sinister chuckle escaped his lips as the
warmth of alcohol rushed down his throat.

-
-

"Do you hear? Command us, Lord."

"..."

"Haw! Lookit da squigs. *BOOM!* Iz'a ninj-ork! 'Splosive tags fer ebbebody!"

"..."

"Wake, you stupid little idiot child! Yang is enacting Plan Eight!"

"... huh? Wazzat? Hzzz...."

"This is OBVIOUSLY not working. Shall we try throwing him OFF A CLIFF this time?"

-
-

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apologies, but once again I must ask others to do some research for me. How vulnerable are modern ships and aircraft to EMP. I am under theimpression they all have some basic hardening, which means how much would it take to overcome that?

Also, DGF, if you're around, could I have a short lecture on the more 'real-world' economic reason for fighting the Trojan War? I know Troy sits to command the channel leading into the Black Sea (and the Easter Europe and the rest of northern Asia Minor) but what resources were worth pulling together the city-states? What were the Persians up to while this was going on?

Troy was also referred to as Ilium? Did the Romans simply assign the name from the Illiad, or is that a proper other name derived from the Y/I use in the language?

edit:
Alliances were important in the ancient world. For Troy to get besieged; what the hell happened to the coalition* against the Achaean League?

*the name of which escapes me more now.

I'm running this parallel because it's West against East again. Beware the Chinese bearing gifts.

Delta Green Friendly · Oct 15, 2010

During Antiquity, the shores of the Black Sea were home to many a Greek colony whose main export was... wheat and other cereals. Most of the wars of the Classical era were concentrated on the control of the crucial area of the Bosphorus and the Hellespont, Athens usually making tremendous efforts to gain or maintain a foothold in the area with long term allies like Byzantium. As the cities grew, more and more wheat was required to feed them, and Athens quickly grew to the point where Attica alone could not sustain her well in the long term. The question of controlling the passage between West and East also factored in, as much wealth could be gathered by taxing the merchants using said route.

But, that is most likely not the *cause* of the Trojan war, as it occurred within the period from 1200 BC to 800 BC. This period, known as the Dark Age of Antiquity, is a void between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age where we know very little, if anything. Our only source of information remains the production of ceramics and pottery in cities likes Corinth and Athens. The Trojan War, or rather the Troy we think might be *the* Troy (Troy VII) was destroyed in the beginning of the Dark Age, is most likely the result of the last major action/raid of a coalition of Mycenaean princes as their civilization collapsed for reasons mostly unknown. It certainly wasn't because of the control of the grain route of the Black Sea, seeing as the palatial complexes of the mainland and Crete were being abandoned and the population was dropping rapidly. Perhaps it was simply a raid for wealth, slaves and cattle. Perhaps it was indeed because of a major diplomatic incident cause by one of the princes of Troy (which could have such results in the very militaristic and honour bound Mycenaean culture). It is likely we will never know.

Ilion, latinized as Ilium, was indeed one of the names of the city of Troy.

You might be confusing the Achaeans princes of the Iliad with the Achaean League of Hellenistic times. In which case, the Eolian League was the arch-nemesis of the Achaean League. But, to return to the Iliad, you will note that, in many a place, we see heroes like Sarpedon of Lycia whom fight as allies of the Trojans (Sarpedon himself scolds Hector at one point for letting the allies of Troy handle the bulk of the fighting). This... did not help them.

Finally, you ask "What were the Persians doing?". Well, the Persian Empire did not exist at the time, it was founded by Cyrus the Great in the 7th century BC. Contemporary to the Trojan War was the Hittite Empire, against whom Ramses II illustrated himself. Said Hittite Empire was also collapsing rapidly for reasons that remain obscure at this time and even in Egypt civilization dimmed and faltered for 400 years.

bluepencil · Oct 15, 2010

Niiiice one. Thanks, I'm so totally going to use that. Saying that economic forces rather than Helen was the reason for fighting; no- contrary to popular cynicism regarding old legends, things haven't changed throughout thousands of years. It's still just pride and greed.

Yang knows it's inevitable that the JSSDF is going to try and take control of Tokyo-3. He's taking this time to premptively prod any attempts of self-justification. Hmm. The use of 'reason you suck' speeches seem like bad writing though. It's taken me this long just to get a feel for Yang's 'voice' rather than an author tract. The ones he's scolding don't really symbolize anything but are a product of their times.

Also; Byzantium? Ohh. Like many, I've been assuming that the Byzantine Empire started with Constantinopolis.

And: Damn. I never knew there was a Dark Age of Antiquity. Has anyone written fiction about that era, using the collapse of the old order as akin to how Lord of the Rings treats the passing of inheritance of the world between elves and men? Ah, if only I could eat your brain, I could write gotterdammerung there. Where do you draw the line where history 'lights up' again? In my lay ignorance, it looks the point near where Alexander shows up.

Delta Green Friendly · Oct 15, 2010

Agamemnon is pretty consistently portrayed as caring far, far more about the loot and slaves to be gained by pillaging Troy then avenging the insult made to his brother Menelaus. The Greeks (or Homer at least) acknowledged subtly that Helen was simply a pretext to the greed of the House of Atreus. Menelaus did care far more about reclaiming his wife and avenging his honour, but almost everyone else was there for the loot. Bar Achilles (present mostly for the immortal glory) and Odysseus (present because he got tricked into accepting to preserve his honour). Still, one has to understand that the loot, and the share received, was important in Mycenaean culture as a symbol of the skill, strength and honour of the warrior. This is why Achilles is angered when Briseis is taken from him, it is a blow to his honour, to his status as a prince and in society, an insult to his ability as a warrior and as a man. That he really liked Briseis did not help calm his temper.

Interesting aside, the meinas (wrath) of Achilles is particular in the Iliad. Where others warriors have anger or rage, only Achilles has the divine meinas which puts him above all other warriors in the Trojan War. Even Diomedes (which I personally favour as the most badass Greek ever alongside Odysseus.) doesn't share this divine wrath. And Diomedes takes on two gods of Olympus in close succession and defeats them handily, including Ares the god of war.

Byzantion was a Greek city of significant antiquity and strategic importance, if not of great wealth before Constantine chose it. Constantine refounded it as Constantinopolis, a practice not unheard of in Antiquity. Many people forget that, for a time, Jerusalem was no longer Jerusalem, but Aelia Capitolina when Hadrian refounded it in his name and that of Iupiter Capitolinus, for instance.

Calling the Eastern Roman Empire the Byzantine Empire was an *insult* devised by Occidental monks and intellectuals after Charlemagne and afterwards Otto the 1st claimed the Roman imperial title. The "Byzantines", despite becoming fully Greek and Oriental in customs, titles and language after the 6th or 7th century, continued calling themselves the Roman Empire until 1453. The West calling them by the name of the old Greek city was basically denying them (symbolically) the recognition of their legitimacy as heirs of the Roman Empire.

As for the Dark Age of Antiquity, unlike the High Medieval Age it truly deserves that name as we know next to nothing about what the hell happened to every civilization next to the Mediterranean sea. Civilization just... vanishes in scant decades; even the Hittite Empire crumbles with a whimper. Even in Egypt everything falls silent with only few inscriptions which talk cryptically about the People of the Sea, whose invasions' scale could never explain everything just... stopping all over the Eastern Mediterranean. We have archeological evidence of how people lived during those times and can even deduce their social organization to a point, but the exact events remain utterly mysterious.

Writing disappears in Greece from 1200 to 800, at which point the Phoenician alphabet is transmitted to the Greeks and adapted into the archaic Greek alphabet. From 800 onwards, we have inscriptions of laws and edicts appearing all over Greek territories, the first Greek colonies appear and they turn outwards, spreading all over the Known World. Around 750 BC, we have attestations of the earliest example of a clearly identified text of fiction appearing on pottery fragments... the Iliad and the Odyssey. Around 725 BC, Hesiod composes the Theogonia. Throughout the 7th and 6th centuries, the Greek cities experiment relentlessly with their political organization, tyrannies, monarchies and oligarchies of diverse forms and constitutions appearing and disappearing. Ideas form, are questioned and change. Men, for the first time in recorded history, dare to ask "Why?" to the Universe itself. No longer is it enough to observe a phenomena and record it as the old Babylonians and Egyptians do, though their experience and wisdom is prized and admired; now, men theorize and demonstrate. Philosophy, geometry, mathematics and rhetorics are born or reborn as free men debate amongst free men.

The Greek Miracle had arrived.

EDIT: I just realized that I forgot to mention and precise one very important fact about the Dark Age. During that period, international commerce in the Mediterranean stops completely, which is why in my previous post I said that the position of Troy near the Bosphorus and in the Sea of Marmara (also called the Propontis in Antiquity) was more then likely not the cause of the attack.

It is far more likely it was a simple raid for riches, cattle and slaves by the last remnants of the Mycenaean warrior princes. I do not recall if Troy VII suffered from seismic activity that could explain an attack of opportunity (earthquake breaking down the walls), but many factors could explain a siege of ten years, including it being a series of intensive raids over ten years before the city fell.

Finally, of course there was such a tale written about the period of the Dark Age. It is before our time I'm afraid, but you may know as the Iliad. From it and the Odyssey are all tales forged. And from their combined basis, we learn much of the days of the Mycenaeans, of the Dark Age and of the great colonization of the 8th Century.

Sdebeli · Oct 16, 2010

Okay, I am afraid I am a less scholarly type than DFG, but I can give rather accurate comments on EMP weaponry. Essentially, the only real EMP weapon currently in existence is The Bomb. No needs for explanation there, it bombards a massive area with radiation, though your first concern is surviving the blast.
Now, if you had a theoretical EMP weapon that doesn't kill via other means (look at example above), it would depend on the power of said weapon.

Generally speaking, an airborne detonation of a nuclear bomb is what you're looking for as a real life scenario. I'm afraid I am uncertain of the physics and calculations behind it, but such a detonation produces a powerful wave of electromagnetic radiation. Exact range and power depend on the power of the bomb itself, obviously.
Aircraft hardening... pre-2000 would be utterly useless, unless technology has been actively developing in that direction after the Second Impact.
Ship hardening? Not that sure, but I am also not sure of any development in that direction. A large part in development logic was the fact that at the time nuclear missiles would be launched, it was already to late to plan survival, and conventional EMP weapons did not yet exist.
However, I can offer a bit of reference that should give you an accurate idea.
Taken from <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'> wikipedia</a>

A ship retains it's buoyancy regardless of the state of its electronics, and for the most part, if I remember correctly, pre-2000 cannons and guns were still very much mechanical. Missile launchers on the other hand, are partially electronic, partially mechanical, therefore it is a good chance that they won't work.
In essence, it would lose much of its power, but it would also most likely survive without any major losses.

Military aircraft would pretty much fall from the sky as their internals are scrambled to oblivion and the thousand and one systems that keep it airborne are wrecked into nothingness. Yes, the pilot might get a chance to escape alive... if memory serves, the ejection seats are mostly mechanical, and there is a small chance that they could in theory land safely... the craft would still be useless.

Any further speculation would depend on the type of weapon we are talking about.

On to more theoretical and SF ideas

An EMP device that 'detonates', creating a blast radius electro-magnetic pulse would with enough power, be capable of burning every piece of electronics in a very large hemisphere, and to a limited degree, beneath the surface. Activated while airborne... the effects are even less localized.

A beam type weapon would be highly focused(depending on size thereof, we are not talking about a beam that has a radius of 20+ meters), and would likely purge any device it hits, bringing down aircraft effortlessly by screwing on-board computers, but would be next to useless vs battleships as it would take far too long to hit all of its systems.

Finally, the least probable of all as it is... uhm... for the lack of a word too screwy against physics to create, is a super-focused localized EMP. If you need an explanation, think Magneto from X-Men. On steroids. While channeling Kamina. And you might get an idea.
It's a freaking EMP powerful enough to affect the human nervous system. This part is based on the simple nerves=conductor logic, which actually has merit, however, usually anything that produces an EMP that strong produces it as a side effect... the primary effect usually turns the body into ionized particles, so.....
I won't even bother to say what it would do to ships and planes.

Hope it helps at least somewhat, I could possibly say more, but I'd have to have an idea of what kind of weapon we are talking about.

bluepencil · Oct 17, 2010

So to sum up, is it possible to knock out a Carrier group with just an EMP weapon? It's sounds like a certain gray area; sure, someone used a nuke, but since the opposing fleet hasn't suffered any casualties (their engines might still work, if their sensors are scrap), is it even justifiable to retaliate against pre-assigned targets?

With everyone having pointed their nukes at tokyo-3 anyway, it likely wouldn't even matter. I'm basically stuck now on the bare minimum yield needed. The main problem is that it wouldn't affect the submarines.

Sdebeli · Oct 17, 2010

That's the wacky bit... it's nearly impossible to target just one fleet with a nuke :|
You'd need the freaking MAGI to carefully calculate everything, and give you an exact altitude, mass ratio and everything else just to minimize the AOE fallout.
Also, whether or not submarines are affected would likely depend on the depth. At minimum launch depth, they would be affected. Keep that in mind

bluepencil · Oct 17, 2010

NGE universe has weaponized antimatter. That's what N2 weapons are. Even if so, it's in the middle of the ocean, why would you need to worry about fallout?

::scratches chin::

It's really only the international and cultural consensus not to use nuclear weapons in any form that keeps expensive toys from becoming useless lumps of metal by something that costs a far fraction less. Hmm. It's a big risk, but then China already had its capital blasted right out of the face of the Earth by an orbital strike. It's so simple, so direct, of course Yang would do that. If it's the End Times, the US wouldn't waste their nukes on the mainland.

If one nuke won't work, use more nuke. That's what missile-bearing cruisers are for; cheaper and easier to move than Carriers, at least. Even IRL that's why China doesn't have any. Is there some way usable proportions of weapon power (in kilotons), detonation height, and area of effect? Is it important that it be one big airburst, or can a blanket of smaller blasts do as well?

Delta Green Friendly · Oct 17, 2010

Blanket of smaller detonation over a small area could actually dampen the shockwaves as they cancel each other out. I think. I'm certainly not a specialist in nuclear detonations and shockwaves interactions for kiloton and megaton scale explosions.

EMP won't kill a fleet, the shockwave will kill the sailors while the ships may very well stay afloat. Of course, the original tests were made on Battleships built to endure hellish poundings.

bluepencil · Oct 17, 2010

Well, shit. :headbanger: I was hoping to spare the sailors and mission-kill their craft. I need some way of doing this that isn't outright magic.

Wait, do we really need a big boom just to generate the electromagnetic pulse? I seem to recall something about altering the proportions for more EMP output with less explosive power. It's the atmosphere that's making the EMP anyway.

Taking this from wikipedia, let's say a device is detonated from about 40km high. That should still well away from any likely near-future form of interception.

* I mean, hell, if fighters could be used to shoot down large missiles, why sink so much into ABM systems? Although LAZORS are a good enough reason in themselves, methinks.

Alternatively, the Fleet could just spam HPM-head missiles, but it's kinda naff when they could be launching shipkillers instead. A ballistic-approach EMP device could catch them flat-footed, from greater range out, while antiship missiles (specially of let's say less sophisticated Chinese make) would involve them having to go inside the UN NAVY's engagement range.

Now that I think about it though, turnabout's fair play too with a stealth bomber.

<a href='http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm</a>

Delta Green Friendly · Oct 17, 2010

Like I said, I'm not an explosive expert, nor a nuclear physicist. I do think/recall that only nuclear explosions emit EMP due to the interactions of the large burst of radiations with the air. Ionization of the air and such. Non-nuclear explosions in the kiloton/near-kiloton range, such as the Halifax explosion, did not produce any EMP as far as I'm aware, although the effects of the explosion resemble nuclear detonations sufficiently that it was used as a basis for the Manhattan project theoretical models.

Evangelion Shinji and Warhammer40k

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that's why it's trash can, not trash cannot

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that's why it's trash can, not trash cannot

that's why it's trash can, not trash cannot

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that's why it's trash can, not trash cannot

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that's why it's trash can, not trash cannot

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that's why it's trash can, not trash cannot

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that's why it's trash can, not trash cannot

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