Star Wars Plothole

Typhonis

Well-Known Member
#26
The Clone wars are explained in the novelezation of ROTS Thusly as one gigantic trap for the jedi. The veil of the darkside was hiding Palpatinme and he controled both sides of the war. He drew the Jedi out and away from their secure stronghold and then let slip that he was Darth Sidious.

Mace took the bait and the trap was sprung. He caught the Jedi in a case of outrioght treason against the legitamate government because tecghhnically it isn't against the law to be a sith.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#27
Actually finding out that Palpatine is force sensitive wouldn't be proof that they could have used against him. That isn't the problem. The Jedi's problem during the Clone Wars is that they were running around clueless to what was going on. The entire war was their reaction to the events on Geonosis. The entire Seperatist movement was the first thrust of Palpatine's strategy against them.

They knew at the beginning of the war that their enemy had enough clout to set the creation of a clone army into motion (Fett being the model behind them, and then openly working for the Darksider in public control of the
Seperatist.) That at the very least should have given weight to Sidious being in a position of power in the Republic. And it should have had the Jedi searching to make sure.

Even the suspicion that Palpatine was a Sith, thanks to a covert Midiclorian test, would have given them the ability to actually plan and be proactive for the first time in all three prequels. They would have known to oppose him from the beginning of the War. Fighting over public opinion, finding opposition in the Senate, even propaganda. All options that Palpatine couldn't have destroyed them for. Hell even at the end, Palpatine wasn't able to order them destroyed without reason.

No one knew Palpatine was Sidious. That by itself wouldn't hurt, its been too long since they disappeared for the public to care he's a Sith. But Palpatine also being the figure that's actually in charge of the Seperatists? That's different. And the people who that knowledge would affect the most are those Seperatists that he's using. It is something they wouldn't like. That attack on Coruscant that he used to sacrifice Dooku would not be possible for one. It disrupts Palpatines strategy, and forces him to adapt to the Jedi's actions.

Knowing also lets the Jedi prepare for having the entire Republic against them. Removing and safeguarding information and artifacts from their temple. Changing the location of their training center. Creating outposts and safehouses that could harbor their members instead of everyone running everywhich way after their headquarters were destroyed. Avoiding the trap that had them coming to the temple unaware afterwards just to die. They could have survived and given the Rebel Alliance a core of Jedi seasoned by the Clone Wars to build around.
 
#28
One thing I was confused about: do the Jedi even suspect Sidious' existance?

I mean, during the war Dooku was the enemy general and Ventress was his apprentice. So, according to the Rule of Two, wouldn't they have thought Dooku to be the master and Ventress to be the apprentice? If that was the case, wouldn't they have only suspected a higher Sith Lord once they killed Dooku?
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#29
The Jedi cannot force a child to be turned over to them
A number of canon sources says they can, or at least could at that point in time. That's why some people hated the Jedi and called them baby stealers. The new Jedi order doesn't do that; they accept recruits, and we don't know what the older versions did. But the Clone Wars era Jedi can and did take children away from parents to train as Jedi.

midichlorians suck
I disagree, actually. Midichlorians make a lot of sense if to take a few liberties with canon. There's a massive dissertation on Stardestroyer.net that I'm not in the mood to quote that essentially lays out exactly why midichlorians as they're stated in the movie cannot exist. The general gist is that they occupy no biological niche whatsoever, could not possibly have evolved given their stated nature, and make absolutely no sense whatsoever, because if they did work that way, then the Force should not be able to be passed on along family lines, even though canon explicitly states that it does, often strongly. Using that same line of logic, also doesn't work, because it fails to explain how a random individual can spontaneously manifest the Force at random, even when no one else in their bloodline ever has.

Thus, either midichlorians don't do what the movies say they do (or in context, the Jedi aren't sure/are partially wrong about the midichlorians), or midichlorians were artificially created or engineered. Since the second one makes even less sense, it's assumed (and concluded by in this dissertation I'm talking about) that the Jedi are either:

Mistaken about what midichlorians are and the function they serve.

Bullshitting everyone on what the midichlorians do for reasons of their own.


Given everything that's involved, I consider the first one to be the most accurate. Like the dissertation concluded, I believe that midichlorians are an effect of having the Force, but don't actually cause the Force themselves. They're an indication of it, and can be used to indirectly measure it by looking at how concentrated they are, but they aren't actually causing Force sensitivity. They're not batteries or conduits for the Force so much as they are moths drawn to the flame that is the Force manifesting itself in someone. Only in this case, the flame is heatless and invisible, which means if you want to measure the flame, you have to look for the moths.
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#31
Lord Raine said:
The Jedi cannot force a child to be turned over to them
A number of canon sources says they can, or at least could at that point in time. That's why some people hated the Jedi and called them baby stealers. The new Jedi order doesn't do that; they accept recruits, and we don't know what the older versions did. But the Clone Wars era Jedi can and did take children away from parents to train as Jedi.
This is kind of a both yes and no situation. On Republic worlds the parents could still say no. However, the Jedi could essentially lie and cheat in order to convince the parents that they should have the kid.

Also things were set up so that once the Jedi had the kid it was nigh impossible to get them to let the kid leave. There were hints of the Jedi abusing their respect as a police force in order to get families investigated for the parents to temporarily loose control of the kid, not to mention the kid from the disaster where his parents and family were assumed dead until they were found and had an ongoing legal battle to try to get him back.

That was one of the subplots of Darth Maul: Shadowhunter. The main character was rather pissed off that the Jedi had essentially convinced him that his son should be a Jedi and could see him whenever he wanted (He was employed as a janitor or receptionist in the temple) and as soon as they had the kid, they fired him and took steps to keep him away.
 

Vorpal

Well-Known Member
#32
Raine: actually, there's an even simpler explanation of the facts that doesn't require the Jedi to be either fools or making some sort of conspiracy, and that's simply that the midicholorians correlate with but not the cause of Force sensitivity. For example, suppose that midichlorian biology somehow requires a Force-rich environment for them to thrive--then they could serve as a rough indicator of Force potential without being the underlying cause.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#33
Vorpal said:
Raine: actually, there's an even simpler explanation of the facts that doesn't require the Jedi to be either fools or making some sort of conspiracy, and that's simply that the midicholorians correlate with but not the cause of Force sensitivity. For example, suppose that midichlorian biology somehow requires a Force-rich environment for them to thrive--then they could serve as a rough indicator of Force potential without being the underlying cause.
Did you miss the part where I explained that?
 
#34
Lord Raine said:
Vorpal said:
Raine: actually, there's an even simpler explanation of the facts that doesn't require the Jedi to be either fools or making some sort of conspiracy, and that's simply that the midicholorians correlate with but not the cause of Force sensitivity. For example, suppose that midichlorian biology somehow requires a Force-rich environment for them to thrive--then they could serve as a rough indicator of Force potential without being the underlying cause.
Did you miss the part where I explained that?
This is why skimming forums is not recommended.
 

Reader458

Well-Known Member
#35
Not really related to the OP but to the topic at large.
A thing that have bothered me for some time now occures during the duel with Darth Maul on Naboo. I don't know if plothole is the right word but during the scene where Qui-gon (did I get the name right?) and Maul fights there way past the corridore with the laser-shielding, they end up stuck in the last and second to last space. When the shields open again Obi-wan runs full tilt through.... and gets stuck in the last space.

Are there any possible (in-verse) explanation for that?
 
#36
A thing that have bothered me for some time now occures during the duel with Darth Maul on Naboo. I don't know if plothole is the right word but during the scene where Qui-gon (did I get the name right?) and Maul fights there way past the corridore with the laser-shielding, they end up stuck in the last and second to last space. When the shields open again Obi-wan runs full tilt through.... and gets stuck in the last space.

Are there any possible (in-verse) explanation for that?
The force. That's all I'm going to say: the Force.
 
#37
InfinityEngine said:
A thing that have bothered me for some time now occures during the duel with Darth Maul on Naboo. I don't know if plothole is the right word but during the scene where Qui-gon (did I get the name right?) and Maul fights there way past the corridore with the laser-shielding, they end up stuck in the last and second to last space. When the shields open again Obi-wan runs full tilt through.... and gets stuck in the last space.

Are there any possible (in-verse) explanation for that?
The force. That's all I'm going to say: the Force.
That's Lucas' explanation for everything. "Why did Qui-Gon get owned like a punk?" "The Force." "Why was Shmi so very melodramatic?" "The Force." "Why did this movie suck balls?" "Um... The Force?"
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#38
Actually, part of the reason for why Qui-Gon got killed was that Maul was simply a better fighter. If you watch, until Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were split up, Maul was on the defensive and barely keeping up, but one on one, Maul had the advantage.

However, the difference in skill levels was enough that the Sith was pretty much tired out by that fight while Obi-Wan had a bit more time to rest right before it, not to mention a lucky blow to end the fight.
 

nairit

Well-Known Member
#39
SotF said:
Actually, part of the reason for why Qui-Gon got killed was that Maul was simply a better fighter. If you watch, until Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were split up, Maul was on the defensive and barely keeping up, but one on one, Maul had the advantage.

However, the difference in skill levels was enough that the Sith was pretty much tired out by that fight while Obi-Wan had a bit more time to rest right before it, not to mention a lucky blow to end the fight.
There is no luck, only the force.

/obligatory :p
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#40
nairit said:
SotF said:
Actually, part of the reason for why Qui-Gon got killed was that Maul was simply a better fighter. If you watch, until Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were split up, Maul was on the defensive and barely keeping up, but one on one, Maul had the advantage.

However, the difference in skill levels was enough that the Sith was pretty much tired out by that fight while Obi-Wan had a bit more time to rest right before it, not to mention a lucky blow to end the fight.
There is no luck, only the force.

/obligatory :p
Oh? Then how do you explain the good fortune of the Exile?
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#42
There is both Luck and the force, after all, Han is not a force sensitive but goddamn lucky...
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#44
Wildfeather said:
What you call "luck" I call 'using the force unconsciously".
Except that it has already been confirmed that some people have no capability with the force and have extreme luck. This is especially brought up with the race that trained Aurra Sing.
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#46
Wildfeather said:
Oh are we talking about EU? Someone above mentioned we weren't...
No one limited it to just the movies. A lot more in the way of plotholes open up with eliminating the EU (Anakin's scar in Ep3 for instance).
 

sith2886

Well-Known Member
#47
not really a plothole but i was wondering if a jedi clone minus the ysalamari grew at a normal rate would there be any negative side effects? i have this idea for a story.
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#48
sith2886 said:
not really a plothole but i was wondering if a jedi clone minus the ysalamari grew at a normal rate would there be any negative side effects? i have this idea for a story.
Yes, look at Joruus and Luuke from the Heir to the Empire novels...though Luuke was partially screwed up because Joruus wanted a slave/minion for an apprentice and basically ripped whatever mind he did have to shreds
 

sith2886

Well-Known Member
#49
damn, well There goes that idea.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#50
I should have specified it in my original post. I meant just the movies. Lucas' statement about SW canon pretty much makes the books useless for questions about the PT. It enrages me. The books being part of a completely different universe, while still having to conform themselves to the shit thats getting put out now. Oh, and Lucas is willing to lift ideas from them. Just not any of the context that made them enjoyable in the first place. :rant:
 
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