Naruto The Genius of the Fourth

Amberion

Well-Known Member
#51
Yeah, the last chapter is kinda filled with WTF?.

Anyway, I think the biggest reason for Narutos grades are that he never got the basics. And once they moved past that, he was just lost.

I think it's also the reason for Naruto never being able to come up with a jutsu of his own without help.

Of course, those reasons are if we apply real world to it, instead of it having to be story driven reasons.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#52
Kyuubi Sealing: We aren't told why it's impossible, only that the Kyuubi's chakra is too great. I think he basically means that itÆs impossible for him in that situation. If I had to guess it's because Minato wasn't as skilled and/or knowledgeable in fuuinjutsu as Mito and possibly because his own chakra capacity wasn't large enough. Kushina's sealing was probably a controlled situation and probably had Mito around to help. Naruto's sealing was probably the worst because there was no Mito, no Hashirama and the Kyuub was completely free.

Chakra Control: My point isn't that chakra control isn't one of Naruto's weaknesses (though I'd probably label genjutsu as his biggest, personally) only that it shouldn't be blown out of proportion. I once saw a fic where PTS Naruto couldn't safely use Fuuton: Renkuudan or other wind jutsu around his allies because his control was so bad. Over fics have the same issue though rarely to that extent. It was over the top, especially considering his chakra control hardly gets a mention after he learns water walking and later the Rasengan. My point is whilst it's likely harder for Naruto to control his chakra than his peers, it shouldn't take all that much time for it to reach practical levels especially with his parents' guidance.

Naruto's Growth: Like Amberion said, he never got the basics. Simply put, he didn't get the lectures or theories and because of this misunderstanding, he was only able to grow in certain areas and not make nearly as much progress as he had the potential too.

I can't agree at all on the KB though. Mainly because it didn't exist in Part 1 where he achieved all these things and it was a plot device for his wind training and Sage Mode usage. But other than that, I don't believe Naruto used KB in such a way that it would be primarily responsible for his growth. The highlights of his fight with Neji were focused on trickery with KB and his recent access to the Kyuubi's chakra; what happened there didn't make me think it was at all related to the chakra memories. Even using the idea that it was happened subconsciously, I don't feel its impact that was big.

Anyway, that's all I've got to say on it. I'd rather get back to story ideas.

Edit: <a href='http://i.imgur.com/G5zivoU.jpg' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>This</a> <a href='http://imgur.com/1lqJ8dD' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>is</a> <a href='http://imgur.com/FKCCWj9' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>totally</a> <a href='http://imgur.com/tAjo9og' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>relevant.</a> <a href='http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=xsmY3Xj4SnFtnM&tbnid=1OCUEA541lqZ0M:&ved=0CAUQjBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffc02.deviantart.net%2Ffs70%2Fi%2F2010%2F233%2F9%2Ff%2FNaruto__s_family_by_GenieIinabottle.jpg&ei=ZbQKUZjiMLOT0QWBpoHADg&psig=AFQjCNHHOPTN_JmaAy2HL2EvbyxvxmaKDg&ust=1359742437856384' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>And so is this.</a>
 

mortalone

Well-Known Member
#53
I've never read that fic where his control was such an issue. I've always had the opposite problem. Naruto's control issues get hand-waved. "I can't make a bunshin because I simply have too much chakra to do it, but here's a list of four hundred elemental techniques I can do with zero effort." I would never make his chakra control worse than I perceive it to be in canon.

As far as "the basics" being the issue, as far as I'm concerned, that's really just generalizing the problem. I specifically singled out chakra control because not *ALL* the basics are a problem for Naruto. His taijutsu is adequate and while his infiltration skills are not even close to what fanon gives him, he did manage to get the jump on Sasuke and tie him up in like chapter 2 or 3, so again, quite adequate.

If you're arguing that "the theory" is his weak point, well I couldn't disagree with that I guess. Naruto even calls himself stupid when he meets the Fourth.


Those pics. Love it.


Story. I think the big questions right now are ones I don't entirely want to answer. I'm comfortable with the general background and assuming I actually write this I will start by working some glimpses of Minato/Kushina/Konoha before the Kyuubi attack. I've already decided to disregard the standard novel format in the beginning. The most interesting way to invest readers in this comes back to "show, don't tell" and if I just "tell" the back story in a prologue it will be boring. But if I start from the time of Minato being a gennin and chronicle his life up to Kyuubi that will be far, far too much of a commitment from me in terms of time and energy.

When I say the big questions I mean: What will be Naruto's first "real" mission? How exactly does the war break out? What will the final battle look like and what kind of build do I need to get there? Will Naruto have a love interest? If so, who? (I've already labeled Samui as a possibility, but that's still just a possibility.)

The reason I don't entirely want to answer these questions is because I don't want my writing to go in a different direction than my goal. A long time ago I was working on a story called "Path of Hatred" that had that happen. Naruto was supposed to go one way when he seemed to be going another. I found myself written into a corner.


I guess the only other thing is wondering about just how much AU I want to pull in. In many ways I want to keep this as a believable divergence to the canon (diverging at the Kyuubi attack), but especially given what just happened last chapter they may be stuff I need to throw away.

An increasing concern is the way the bijuu and the history have developed. Just as an example, when I first picked up this manga, I had the belief that the Fourth was this super baller who sealed away an unbeatable monster, and that this put him on a pedestal as great even compared to the other Hokages. But the way canon has developed, there's a part of me that can't help but wonder if he was actually the weakest Hokage (at least before Tsunade). The First could control bijuu in raw form and create entire forests from nothing. The Second we don't know too much about, but it was said that he also mastered spacetime techniques. The Third was the God of Shinobi who in his prime could face down all three Sannin and defeated both the First and Second at least in their Edo Tensei forms. And this at a very old age.

I definitely want to write the Fourth as a baller. I want to write him as the kind of guy who, if the current manga chapter happened, would break free of Orochimaru's control and tell Sasuke "touch my son and you're fucking dead." Unfortunately, given how much Kishimoto loves Sasuke, the most likely situation is that Sasuke could face all Four Hokages and win. After all, we know that Sasuke is going to fight Naruto at some point and we know that with how powerful Naruto is, Kishimoto will feel the need to remind us that Sasuke is "on a higher level."

Sigh. Maybe I'm just too bitter about Post-TS.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#54
Hashirama can grow forests, Tobirama can summon tsunamis, Hiruzen knows every trick in the book and Tsunade is a walking siege engine. I donÆt doubt that Minato has the least destructive power of the group.

And for all that, I bet Minato could murder the lot of them.

HeÆs the fastest men to have ever lived without using a jutsu/bijuu, heÆs got a handy jutsu that can one-shot all but the most resilient and a space-time ninjutsu which practically allows him to teleport anywhere he damn well pleases. And he doesnÆt even need hand-seals for this shit; he just does it. As soon as he lays a finger on you, youÆd got a death sentence. Even if you survive the first Rasengan to the face isnÆt gonna stop him from coming back again and again until your headÆs separated from your shoulders. Minato doesnÆt need all the abilities the other Hokage had because he has the perfect combination of skills to make him damn near unstoppable.

Conclusion: MinatoÆs a badass mothefucker with mad skillz. He will wreck your shit.

And the entire point of SasukeÆs existence is that heÆs NarutoÆs rival so he needs to be strong and the only reason he gets any focus is because his growth is meant to parallel NarutoÆs. He gets beat up most of the time anyway. His part in the manga could have been handled better but it's not nearly as bad as what people make it out to be.

Back to the storyà

ThatÆs a really strange place to start with this fic. It sounds more like a separate story or a prequel rather than the beginning of this one. Even if you condense the bits with Minato/Kushina/Konoha to a single chapter, it seems rather misleading and IÆm not sure what the point would be. ItÆs not as if you need to start with the sealing incident and show every change that happened along the way but starting before it, especially if Minato and Kushina the focus of the fic, sounds weird.

There should be a couple of threads in the Talk section with have a number of ideas for missions. You could check them out and adapt them for your story. Stuff like the final battle seems really far down the line, at this point I donÆt think you need to go beyond a general plot outline for what happens in the future and should focus on the earlier parts of the fic. And ideas like that can develop as youÆre writing anyway so it might be better just to get started when you have a definite starting point.

Same with romance. Focus on just developing the relationships between characters first before forcing them into a romance. Maybe just think about which characters this Naruto would get along best with so there are multiple options to consider as the story progresses.

Perhaps not the best writing advice but I haven't done much myself. DLP has some thread in the discussion sections that could give you some good advice if you're willing to have a look.
 

mortalone

Well-Known Member
#55
Naruto will ultimately be the main protagonist, but I feel like the best way to develop this Konoha is to go back and show Minato and Kushina as the characters I want them to be and show Konoha as I want to show it. If this would be better served in a short prequel, then perhaps.

The problem with first "real" mission choice isn't a lack of options -- it's choosing the right one to build the correct themes for the world. Pre-TS carries such nostalgia because every arc showed major character development and world building in a nice, neat package.


About Sasuke, I disagree. I think his character itself is not nearly as bad as people think, but I actually think the way his character has been handled is worse than most people think. In my opinion the ultimate defining feature of a Mary Sue isn't looks or power or any other character trait -- it's that the plot bends over backwards for the character even when it shouldn't, even when it goes against established in universe rules. Sasuke so, so definitely fits that bill.

That's also part of what makes him difficult to write in fanfiction. Going back to this story, the issue becomes that if Sasuke gets dwarfed by Naruto then he will effectively become an unimportant side character. Someone Naruto might care about, but not someone important to the reader. OTOH, this Sasuke isn't driven by the same motivation. It will be difficult to give him a strong personality such as what he has in canon. With a weaker personality and weaker motivations, he seems doomed to get dwarfed by Naruto very, very fast. Which I don't want. Playing up the idea of Sasuke trying to escape Itachi's shadow could go a long way, but that hardly compares with trying to avenge an entire family.
 
#56
then again, like a happier Sasuke is a "weaker" Sasuke, the same is true for Naruto.
Without the drive to prove everybody wrong about him and show them, show them all!, and later having to save Sasuke, he's not going to have such a rapid growth.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#57
At the beginning, that would be the case. Naruto and Sasuke's motivations are less intense here than they would be in canon but that wouldn't necessarily mean that couldn't achieve the same rate of growth, if not greater. For one thing, they have several advantages in this AU that they wouldn't have in canon. It would also depend on how they developed in the story since it's possible that the experiences they go through result in them finding even greater motivation than their canon selves. (Though the impact of their desire to pass their genius relatives could be made could depend on just how desperate they to step out from their shadows. I think it'd depend on how you write it).

So rather than think of how their motivation is weaker, think of what could happen to give them some real motivation.

And I think a prequel would be a good idea if you're going with the parent's story. :sisi:

It wouldn't have to be long and could cover moments before Naruto's birth so show us the fic's world and give us some characterisation of the two of them, then it could progress past his birth so show some of a changes that happened from the divergence point. Then you can move onto the real story with Naruto. It would also give you time to develop future plans as you're writing it.

Mission-wise, I usually start of by thinking of what kind of mission could be interesting. Then how the mission could progress, where will it be, who they might meet, what they could learn (both character development and world building) etc. Just break it down, I guess.

Edit: Doesn't Yahiko's death occur during the Third Shinobi World War? That's what it seems to be implying <a href='http://i29.mangapanda.com/naruto/446/naruto-8939.jpg' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>here</a>. In which case it doesn't make sense for Danzo not to be involved since Minato would have been alive anyway at this point. Or have I got the timeline mixed up?
 
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