Naruto The Genius of the Fourth

[Shirotsume]

OK, so you're ignoring me. Haven't changed, ankoku.

Your entire premise is flawed: even if Kushina DOESN'T care (she would, but whatever), the fact that she IDs the masked man as an Uchiha is all it will take to cause the village to flip its collective shit. Again, the collective village was so hostile towards the Uchiha just from a general suspicion- that an Uchiha was known to control the Kyuubi- that the Uchiha felt they had to mount a military coup just to get some equality.

As soon as Kushina says that dude had a Sharingan, hell has arrived in its handbasket, tip the delivery boy.



Ashaman: I went back and looked at it- you're right, I misread that (Chapter 500, if anyone cares.)

All they do is introduce Sasuke, talk about baby names, and joke about childbirth pain.

Biwako was apparently tainting my memories by randomly reprimanding for not keeping her entire pregnancy secret. (wut.)

 

[mortalone]

You're not entirely wrong since a skilled ninja like Mikoto would probably be able to tell how close to childbirth a target is. Seems like a useful skill for an elite ninja to have.

That said, I think this entire argument is riding on exactly how close Kushina and Mikoto are as friends and exactly how various people respond to the information presented. I don't think things would 100% necessarily be worse for the Uchiha if Kushina survived and Minato did not. There are just too many variables.

That said, I'm confident that Kushina surviving but not Minato would not be better for the Uchiha than Minato surviving. Not that this is what you guys are arguing, but my feeling is that any situation where the Fourth dies is going to result in somebody saying "if only the Fourth were still here."

 

[DhampyrX2]

- Ok, Minato surviving has been explored pretty well here. Kumo would watch itself since a Hiraishin enema would be an unpleasant result of kidnapping Hinata. Especially after the failed attempt to get Kushina years before. Reminding the Yondaime of how he had to rescue his future wife by pulling the same crap... not the best plan to improve your village.

-Assuming Kushina has a significant role in Naruto's life, he well still take after her in most respects. He might be better trained and closer to where he was post-TS in terms of skills at a younger age, but he would still have his mother's personality.

-Kushina and Mikoto being friends might be the X-factor to the whole universe. If she supports her friend with Minato there to explain that it was Madara who attacked them during the birth then you have a connection between the Hokage's house and the Uchiha. Naruto and Sasuke could well be raised together similar to how team Ino-Shika-Cho part 2 were.

-Hinata would be an interesting situation. Take away her childhood trauma and she could be anywhere from her canon shyness to her RTN! personality. One thing to consider is that as a Clan heiress, she might well be acquainted with Naruto and Sasuke through official village functions rather than just as a classmate. How that might alter her development and her thoughts on Naruto is up to individual author interpretation. RTN suggests that even a vastly different AU Hinata will still be hot for Naruto on some level. How that might manifest here and how Naruto would react to it remains to be seen.

(And somehow I would see Kushina flipping her shit if a more RTN like Hinata was pursuing her son.)

-Akatsuki and Nagato... well that might be a whole different kettle of fish. If Minato being alive and in power means Danzo minds his own business, Hanzo gets offed and through Jiraiya's connections to its new rulers you get Ame as an allied nation with Yahiko as the leader of Ame. If Danzo tries his conspiring with Hanzo behind the Yondaime's back here... well I don't think Minato would look the other way once the truth came out. ESPECIALLY not if he learned that Nagato happened to be an Uzumaki. Dealing with Kushina would be a nightmare after something like that.

And frankly, I got the impression that Sarutobi let more things go on than he should during his second run as Hokage in canon because of his own personal ties. He had know some of what his teammates and Danzo were pulling. I think he let it happen because those were his friends and their hearts, such as they were, were in the right place.

Minato had no such sentimental ties to the old farts. They pull that with him and steps would be taken. Which ironically, could still end up in an alliance with Ame if Minato offered them Danzo's head as compensation for his interference. Two disciples of Jiriaya sticking together, ones that have family ties through Kushina and Nagato being Clansmen.

 

[mortalone]

I think part of why Sarutobi let things go is because he was knee deep in shit to begin with. The village was decimated by the Kyuubi, all 3 of the Sannin were gone, the Fourth dead, and then the Uchiha issue, which blew up in his face. When you get down to it, Konoha lost so many of its big guns that Sarutobi was in a position where he was just focusing on putting out the fires and not worrying much about the rest.

At least that's what I'd like to believe. The idea of "the Professor" aka "the God of Shinobi" not being able to control his village looks just plain awful.


This Konoha does not suffer from all that. Orochimaru is gone. Tsunade is probably gone. But the Fourth isn't and Jiraiya isn't and the Uchiha are still there, with several big guns of their own like Itachi and Shisui.

I haven't seen RTN and probably won't, but from what I've gathered I'd actually like that version of Hinata. If I did include an RTN!Hina (or some approximation thereof), the possibility of that pairing would open up, but I'm not interested in doing a NaruHina if Hinata is canon or worse, typical fanon. As far as I'm concerned that pairing has been done to death.


One comment about skill: Naruto definitely would not be Post-TS level at a Pre-TS age. Stronger than canon certainly, but not by *that* much. Part of the difference is puberty and maturity, but part of it is that I really don't Naruto is your "typical" genius. He's doing crazy awesome things in canon by now, but to be brutally honest, I think there's a tendency in the fandom to think that Naruto would be some kind of godly Itachi figure if he was shown just a little love (not saying that's you exactly, but my point remains) when he was described as being hard working. He's clumsy and kind of stupid and he had Kyuubi's chakra adversely affecting his control, his weak point to begin with. Which will actually be an even bigger deal in this story due to a weaker seal. And in canon, if he hadn't inherited Minato's gift for synchronizing his chakra with others he probably would never have even made it to the level we saw him at Post TS ever in his entire life. Granted the fact that he had to learn to synchronize his chakra with Kyuubi probably helped him learn Sage Mode and probably helped him surpass Minato in this regard, but I'm starting to tread deep into speculation now so that's enough.

This Naruto would grow into his power.

I have other story ideas I've thought of for strong!Naruto characterizations, but suddenly turning Naruto into a prodigy in addition to giving him parents seems like too much.

 

[datakim]

The Fourth does not die because it is technically Naruto who sealed the Kyuubi despite Naruto being a newborn incapable of performing any jutsu on his own. Yes, this requires a gigantic leap of faith, but if you are accepting my hypothesis then it should be possible at least in principle. And Minato is a BAMF, so just roll with it (because a wizard did it ).

With the Fourth alive, what changes do we see? Can he save Kushina? Can he stop the Uchiha massacre? Will he be one of the "Chosen" destined to either save or destroy the world?

One thing of note. I don't think it has ever been suggested anywhere that sealing a bijuu into a person is in any way deadly. Minato did not die because he sealed Kyuubi into Naruto. Minato died because for some bizarre reason he felt it important to rip Kyuubi into two pieces and seal only the Yang aspect into Naruto (and seal the Yin to himself and then get eaten by the Death God).

So basically there were two sealings. One half to Naruto using the Hakke seal (no sacrifice required). And one half to Minato using Shiki Fuujin (inherently fatal technique).

We don't know why this was done. It could be that Kyuubi, being the most chakra-massive of the bijuu was just too much for a newborn child to handle and so Minato had to cut 50% off to prevent Naruto from exploding from chakra overload. Or it could be that Minato had some as yet unrevealed plan in sealing only the Yang that will come into play in the coming chapters.

However right now, if someone wanted to write a story where Minato survives, all that needs to be done is have Minato seal 100% of Kyuubi into Naruto using the Hakke seal, and ignore Shiki Fuujin alltogether. That would allow Minato atleast to survive. And with prompt medical attention (Minato teleporting her to a hospital) Kushina could be said to survive too.

And since we don't know why Minato only sealed 50% into Naruto in canon, its totally up to author how things would change with the full Kyuubi in Naruto. Maybe nothing would change. Or maybe Narutos chakra reserves would be even more insanely massive, but as the downside his chakra control would be even more messed up (which would prevent super!Naruto even with Minato training him).

As for the Uchiha. Minato suspected Madara but then decided that it was probably not him (note he never claims the masked man was Madara in his talk with Naruto). However Obito did use pretty unique style of fighting with his teleporting and such, and Minato as the hokage would presumably know that there are no such Uchiha in the village. There is also the fact that that Obito lost one of his hands to Minatos attacks, and presumably no Uchiha would have such an injury, clearing them.

I think the most likely suspect would be a renegade Uchiha such as Madaras apprentice and/or son. This would likely significantly reduce any hostility towards the Uchiha given that the clan already publicly rejected Madara and everything he stood for when they supported Hashirama over Madara. Especially since Minato would presumably support the Uchiha (he trained one [IRONY!], and his wife is close friends with one).

 

[mortalone]

I strongly suspect it's not that simple. If it were, then Minato's sacrifice was positively stupid.

 

[DhampyrX2]

One thought here is that Kushina being alive means she might start training Naruto in her skill set. Naruto with chakra chains capable of holding down the freaking Kyuubi would be one hell of a trump card for him. And when I say Naruto would be closer (as in not at it yet) to his post-TS self, I don't mean the senjutsu using, Kurama-brofisting, rasenshurikan wielding Naruto. I mean the Naruto that worked well with Sakura just after he got back to Konoha. He would be able to hang with guys like canon Sasuke or canon Shino of the same age. He wouldn't be the new Sage of the Six Paths yet.

 

[datakim]

I strongly suspect it's not that simple. If it were, then Minato's sacrifice was positively stupid.

Given that we have others sealing bijuu into things, themselves, others without dying, yes it was stupid unless there is something else going on here. Thats why there has been speculation that maybe having only Yang sealed in Naruto gives Naruto some as yet unseen benefit thats worth Minatos death.

Or indeed that Naruto just could not handle the full fox, and Minato was so obsessed with Jiraiyas prophecy and convinced Naruto was the one to fullfill it that he was willing to die for it. And to be fair, if you look at the recent manga chapters, he seems to have been right.

 

[Antimatter]

I think part of why Sarutobi let things go is because he was knee deep in shit to begin with. The village was decimated by the Kyuubi, all 3 of the Sannin were gone, the Fourth dead, and then the Uchiha issue, which blew up in his face. When you get down to it, Konoha lost so many of its big guns that Sarutobi was in a position where he was just focusing on putting out the fires and not worrying much about the rest.

At least that's what I'd like to believe. The idea of "the Professor" aka "the God of Shinobi" not being able to control his village looks just plain awful.


This Konoha does not suffer from all that. Orochimaru is gone. Tsunade is probably gone. But the Fourth isn't and Jiraiya isn't and the Uchiha are still there, with several big guns of their own like Itachi and Shisui.

I haven't seen RTN and probably won't, but from what I've gathered I'd actually like that version of Hinata. If I did include an RTN!Hina (or some approximation thereof), the possibility of that pairing would open up, but I'm not interested in doing a NaruHina if Hinata is canon or worse, typical fanon. As far as I'm concerned that pairing has been done to death.


One comment about skill: Naruto definitely would not be Post-TS level at a Pre-TS age. Stronger than canon certainly, but not by *that* much. Part of the difference is puberty and maturity, but part of it is that I really don't Naruto is your "typical" genius. He's doing crazy awesome things in canon by now, but to be brutally honest, I think there's a tendency in the fandom to think that Naruto would be some kind of godly Itachi figure if he was shown just a little love (not saying that's you exactly, but my point remains) when he was described as being hard working. He's clumsy and kind of stupid and he had Kyuubi's chakra adversely affecting his control, his weak point to begin with. Which will actually be an even bigger deal in this story due to a weaker seal. And in canon, if he hadn't inherited Minato's gift for synchronizing his chakra with others he probably would never have even made it to the level we saw him at Post TS ever in his entire life. Granted the fact that he had to learn to synchronize his chakra with Kyuubi probably helped him learn Sage Mode and probably helped him surpass Minato in this regard, but I'm starting to tread deep into speculation now so that's enough.

This Naruto would grow into his power.

I have other story ideas I've thought of for strong!Naruto characterizations, but suddenly turning Naruto into a prodigy in addition to giving him parents seems like too much.

To be fair, Naruto's biggest issue seems to have been a lack of solid guidance and instruction on the level needed to really boost his skills. With someone intimately familiar with being a host, and the villages strongest ninja both teaching him from about the time he can walk, he should be much, much better off overall by the time he graduates form the academy.

Will he be post TS levels? Probably not. But he could be at the level of just before the timeskip. He should be a match, at the least, of any of the other roookies from major clans by the time he graduates, instead of bottom of his class.

 

[Shirotsume]

I thought we already knew that Minato split the Fox up as a failsafe fuckyou to Madara? Or is that something that was implied and later changed?

 

[Amberion]

I thought we already knew that Minato split the Fox up as a failsafe fuckyou to Madara? Or is that something that was implied and later changed?

I think it's something that has only been said on this forum. At least I don't think there is any basis on it in the manga.

Not only that, I would think Kyuubi recharged fairly fast.

 

[Antimatter]

I thought we already knew that Minato split the Fox up as a failsafe fuckyou to Madara? Or is that something that was implied and later changed?

I think it was more the seal he was planning on couldn't hold all of the fox, so he split it. In previous cases were it was lose and sealed, like with Mito, I imagine the 1st hokage suppressed it allowing for the seal.

For Kushina, it was probably resealed without ever being released. Just sort of Transfered form Mito to her.

 

[datakim]

I think it's something that has only been said on this forum. At least I don't think there is any basis on it in the manga.

Yeah. The only possible reason to do this to mess up Obitos plans would be if Minato knew about Juubi and tried to permanently weaken Kyuubi to prevent Juubi being fully resurrected. Minato however did not know anything about the origins of the bijuu, so that reason does not work.

Infact I think he explicitly says that he hopes Naruto will learn to use Kyuubis power and use it to defeat Obito. Given that, one would expect that he would seal the entire Kyuubi into Naruto to give Naruto as much power as possible and maximize his chances. Instead he only seals the Yang part for some reason.

Not only that, I would think Kyuubi recharged fairly fast.

Thats assuming Kyuubi could recharge. The loss of his entire Yin-part is a rather unique scenario.

The whole point of Minato using Shiki Fuujin was to take away the entire Yin-part of Kyuubi, and sealing only the Yang-part into Naruto. We don't know if Kyuubi can regenerate the Yin-chakra that was taken, since he lost that part entirely and basically lacks even the tiniest "seed" of Yin-chakra to build upon. I have read theories that speculate that Kyuubi would eventually recharge to full chakra levels, but that his chakra (even at 100%) would be purely Yang and lacking Yin alltogether (where previously even at full power, his chakra would have been split between the two aspects of Yin/Yang).

This is one of the reasons why I would think there was some purpose behind this. I mean if it was merely a question of not being able to seal the full Kyuubi into Naruto, then why not take 50% from both Yin and Yang. That way you can seal the Kyuubi into Naruto, while still leaving the option open for Kyuubi to eventually regenerate fully (at a point where Naruto would presumably be older and more capable of handling things).

I should also mention that the seal Minato used was hyped as a very advanced seal by Killer Bee, and there are even hints that it might be the same seal Sot6P used on Juubi originally (Kyuubi recognizes it and mentions the Sage, and the chakra cloak that forms around Naruto emulates what we have seen of the Sage). If so, its certain that the seal could easily have handled a fully powered Kyuubi.

Oh, and I should say this. It is somewhat interesting, that what Minato did to Kyuubi is in a way exactly what the original Sage did to Juubi. The sage took the entirety of Juubis chakra, and then basically ripped it apart into 9 different fragments (the current bijuu). Minato used Shiki Fuujin to take the entirety of Kyuubis chakra, and then ripped it apart into 2 different fragments (yin and yang). The fact that none of the bijuu (who are fragments of Juubi) have been able to regenerate back to full Juubi might be taken as a clue that Kyuubi cannot regenerate either (atleast not the Yin part that was ripped from him, he might be able to compensate by going all Yang).

 

[Antimatter]

I think it's something that has only been said on this forum. At least I don't think there is any basis on it in the manga.

Yeah. The only possible reason to do this to mess up Obitos plans would be if Minato knew about Juubi and tried to permanently weaken Kyuubi to prevent Juubi being fully resurrected. Minato however did not know anything about the origins of the bijuu, so that reason does not work.

Infact I think he explicitly says that he hopes Naruto will learn to use Kyuubis power and use it to defeat Obito. Given that, one would expect that he would seal the entire Kyuubi into Naruto to give Naruto as much power as possible and maximize his chances. Instead he only seals the Yang part for some reason.

Not only that, I would think Kyuubi recharged fairly fast.

Thats assuming Kyuubi could recharge. The loss of his entire Yin-part is a rather unique scenario.

The whole point of Minato using Shiki Fuujin was to take away the entire Yin-part of Kyuubi, and sealing only the Yang-part into Naruto. We don't know if Kyuubi can regenerate the Yin-chakra that was taken, since he lost that part entirely and basically lacks even the tiniest "seed" of Yin-chakra to build upon. I have read theories that speculate that Kyuubi would eventually recharge to full chakra levels, but that his chakra (even at 100%) would be purely Yang and lacking Yin alltogether (where previously even at full power, his chakra would have been split between the two aspects of Yin/Yang).

This is one of the reasons why I would think there was some purpose behind this. I mean if it was merely a question of not being able to seal the full Kyuubi into Naruto, then why not take 50% from both Yin and Yang. That way you can seal the Kyuubi into Naruto, while still leaving the option open for Kyuubi to eventually regenerate fully (at a point where Naruto would presumably be older and more capable of handling things).

I should also mention that the seal Minato used was hyped as a very advanced seal by Killer Bee, and there are even hints that it might be the same seal Sot6P used on Juubi originally (Kyuubi recognizes it and mentions the Sage, and the chakra cloak that forms around Naruto emulates what we have seen of the Sage). If so, its certain that the seal could easily have handled a fully powered Kyuubi.

Oh, and I should say this. It is somewhat interesting, that what Minato did to Kyuubi is in a way exactly what the original Sage did to Juubi. The sage took the entirety of Juubis chakra, and then basically ripped it apart into 9 different fragments (the current bijuu). Minato used Shiki Fuujin to take the entirety of Kyuubis chakra, and then ripped it apart into 2 different fragments (yin and yang). The fact that none of the bijuu (who are fragments of Juubi) have been able to regenerate back to full Juubi might be taken as a clue that Kyuubi cannot regenerate either (atleast not the Yin part that was ripped from him, he might be able to compensate by going all Yang).

I don't remember hearing the Fox talk about the sages seal until naruto resealed him after taking his chakra, with the gates seal. I always figured it was something innately tapped into when he redid the seal. after all, the seal looked radically different from before.

 

[Knyght]

Same here. Kurama's comments on the seal make it seem like it was because of Naruto himself rather than anything Minato did.

 

[mortalone]

Kyuubi sealing discussion:

We don't know much about the sealing process except that when a bijuu is unsealed the old host dies. So barring cases where a bijuu was sealed directly from one host to the next, we only know of two for absolute certain (Naruto and Mito) and there's one other that's likely (Gaara; the information suggests that the Ichibi had not been sealed directly from another host to Gaara, but that the village chose to seal the Ichibi in Gaara as weapon for future wars). In two of these cases someone died along with the sealing. I do not think it was explicitly stated anywhere that Gaara's mother died of natural causes. Because of this, and because I'd like to believe that Minato wasn't an idiot and I'm not going to speculate on his choice for splitting the Yin and Yang chakra of Kyuubi when we just plain don't know, I'm still inclined to believe that the natural course of events is that someone must die in order for the sealing to work and that Mito's case was special having to do with her own sealing prowess combined with Hashirama's ability to control a bijuu. In Minato's case, even if we assume his sealing ability is truly legendary, he was pressed for time and did not have someone like Hashirama handy to help.

This view is supported by leafninja.com:

GaaraÆs father the Kazekage decided that quality should exceed quantity. He chose to use an old weapon of war, a bijuu, which had been imbued into two former Sand ninja in the past.

At his demand, one of Hidden SandÆs elder kunoichi's, a profoundly skilled woman by the name Chiyo sealed this weapon known as Shukaku into the unborn son of the KazekageÆs wife, Karura. Transferring it from the tea kettle it was held in, Gaara was imbued with the Shukaku, making him what many call a "Jinchuuriki", or "power of human sacrificeö. The term originates from the immense abilities that the subject wields, but at the loss of another humanÆs life. In this case, it was Karura who lost her life as her son was born.

<a href='http://leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Gaara' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Gaara</a>

@DhampyrX2:

Ah, so you meant in demeanor rather than ability. Well, in some aspects yeah, but I think Naruto would still be a mischievous and troublesome young boy.

Yes, I also agree that Naruto would not have been "dead-last" if his parents were around. I'm leaning on him still having chakra control problems, however. At least at first, certainly. In fanon, we often see Naruto find out about tree climbing at an earlier age and suddenly he's a genius at chakra control a week later. That's "alright" for fanfiction maybe, but canonically that would not be the case I am sure.

We only found out in Post-TS about the KB training method, but looking back at Pre-TS Naruto, couldn't it be said that his frequent use of KB contributed massively to his explosive growth from "dobe" to "hero"? Just because he was not aware of receiving such a benefit (which I sitll find hard to believe) does not mean he was not receiving the benefit.

@Antimatter:

I agree completely that closer guidance would have helped Naruto, but I think his biggest problem was chakra control, largely because of the Kyuubi's chakra mixing with his own. In this regard having Kushina does help him a lot even in ways that no other teacher in Konoha could offer. That said, it's not a cake walk.

Would this Naruto be a match for Sasuke and Neji? Perhaps not at first, but then both of them will be stronger as well.

 

[datakim]

Same here. Kurama's comments on the seal make it seem like it was because of Naruto himself rather than anything Minato did.

The seal being recognized by Kurama and the fact that Naruto looks like the silhoutte of the sage imply there has to be somekind of connection.

Whats the cause? Well obviously either Naruto or the seal.

We know that the seal came from the Uzumaki clan (Kushina says he taught it to Minato), and that they are descended from the Sage through the younger son. So its quite possible that the original Juubi-seal was passed on through the generations and thats how Minato learned it. If the seal was designed by the sage then that would explain why Kurama recognized it and why Narutos silhoutte looks like the Sage.

As for why Kurama would recognize it only then, it could be that the seal was designed to "evolve" to that state once the jinchuuriki nicked chakra from the sealed bijuu. Obviously the sage would have done this fight with Juubi before Kurama came to existence, so Kurama would have had no way to recognize a seal that had not yet undergone this change that comes from the host taking the bijuus chakra.

The other option is that its something inherent in Naruto. The trouble is that Naruto has absolutely no training in fuuinjutsu, so if it was Naruto who did it rather than something built-in to the seal, then we run into the problem of how he did it. Naruto may be a distant descendant of the sage, but I don't think there are any genetic memories in Narutoverse. If Naruto just magically knew what to do, then we pretty much end up in a situation where Naruto has to be the soul of the original Sage reincarnated or somesuch and thats how he knew what to do. Not sure how I would feel about that. Naruto is already the new prophecied ninja!jesus. Having him be the reincarnation of the original savior of the world would be a bit too much.

Can you think of a third option?


Mortalone: Sorry, but unless you can give me a canon source, I am going to view that leafninja.com thing as fanfiction. Dying at childbirth is not exactly unknown and I for one cannot recall any suggestion that Gaaras mother died strictly because of the bijuu (heck, that would make the Kazekage an idiot for not waiting until Gaara was a bit older to seal the thing into him). There is nothing to suggest anyone died when Bee got Hachibi, the original Sage sealed the combined thing (Juubi) into himself without problems, and Mito had no trouble sealing Kyuubi into himself.

There is just no proof that I can recall that states that sealing bijuu into people requires someone to die. I could be wrong ofcourse, but in order to buy that I would want to see the manga chapter where that is stated. Minatos death does not count, since we know that Shiki Fuujin is inherently fatal no matter what you use it on, thanks to Sarutobi using it on the edo!hokages and directly stating that the DG wants to eat the users soul no matter what you do with the technique.

Why did Minato do what he did? I think that if he had just taken a random 50% off Kurama with Shiki Fuujin, I would accept that in the chaos of the situation he had to make Kurama weaker in order to be able to seal him. However the fact that Minato specifically chose to seal only the Yang into Naruto, and the fact that this was mentioned repeatedly leads me to suspect that Kishi is going somewhere with that Yin/Yang divide. We just have to wait and see I guess.

 

[Shirotsume]

tl;dr: Yin can give thoughts form. Yang can give form life.

I'm almost wondering if that Infinite Tsukoyumi is going to get cast as the ultimate Yin Release, but Naruto hijacks it with the huge amount of Yang chakra he has to turn the entire jutsu into a Yin/Yang Release like the Sage's ultimate jutsu, The Creation of All Things.

Considering the Messiah theme going on, it isn't hard to imagine what Naruto would make.

 

[mortalone]

@datakim and Shirotsume The theory of a Yin/Yang divide is a nice theory purposely to screw with Madara is cute, but it's premised on the idea that Minato was somehow able to see the future and knew the correct way to divide Kyuubi's chakra to permanently fuck Madara's plan. Since Minato didn't know anything about Madara's plans prior to Obito showing up, I'd call serious bullshit if that was the plan at the moment of sealing. It may happen that way in the end, but if that was the plan from the beginning? Serious bullshit.

I am aware the Shiki Fuuin is automatically fatal, but it strikes me that of all sealing methods that was the one Minato used. There has to be a reason he sacrificed himself and there's no good reason why in advance he would know specifically to separate the Yin and Yang chakra in order to defeat Madara.

(P.S. leafninja is a reliable source that uses the manga/anime and databooks. That does not mean their information is all up to date or correct, but I'm actually a bit insulted that you dismissed it out of hand without even looking at it.)


Also, we do not know that the Uzumaki are related to the Senju through the younger son. We only know that they are distantly related. Hypothetically, what if the Rikkudo Sennin's wife was an Uzumaki? To be specific, the relation could be through marriage or could be even further back. We do not have the details.

 

[datakim]

I am aware the Shiki Fuuin is automatically fatal, but it strikes me that of all sealing methods that was the one Minato used. There has to be a reason he sacrificed himself and there's no good reason why in advance he would know specifically to separate the Yin and Yang chakra in order to defeat Madara.

Obviously it could not be anything specific to the Moon Eye Plan or Juubi since Minato has no knowledge of those, but there could be some general reason why Yang chakra gives some unique benefit to Naruto. Either that, or Minato is an idiot.

I will say this. It seems unlikely that this will be left unexplained. Infact lots of people on other forums have suggested that the current Sasuke/Orochimaru arc is about Orochimaru having found a way to summon souls from the Death God (would have been a priority research target since it ate his hands and all) and that we might yet see Minato brought back as an edo to explain himself. Right now however, we can only speculate.

(P.S. leafninja is a reliable source that uses the manga/anime and databooks. That does not mean their information is all up to date or correct, but I'm actually a bit insulted that you dismissed it out of hand without even looking at it.)

I do tend to use Wikis myself, but I usually want a reference to the source. If that site is correct, then it should be no problem for you to give me the chapter number. No offense is intended by this. I just want to see the original version myself. I see nothing wrong with that.

Also, we do not know that the Uzumaki are related to the Senju through the younger son. We only know that they are distantly related. Hypothetically, what if the Rikkudo Sennin's wife was an Uzumaki? To be specific, the relation could be through marriage or could be even further back. We do not have the details.

99.9% certainty at this point. Some have even speculated that the original Sage WAS an Uzumaki himself (due to all the sealing stuff). Madara views Senju and Uzumaki as basically the same (when he explains Nagato to Obito) and he is basically our primary source on the Sage. add to this the fact that Uzumaki have inherited the powers that were described for the younger son exactly (even better than the Senju themselves actually, not counting Hashirama himself).

In theory, there is indeed still that tiny 0.1% possibility that it will turn out that Naruto is not a descendant of the sage, but I would not bet money on that possibility.

 

[Knyght]

It seemed to me that the Shiki Fuujin was the only method that Minato was able to use. He says that itÆs ôphysically and conceptually impossible to seal all of [the Kyuubi]ö so he could only seal a part of it away or let it die inside Kushina and break the balance when it revives. Splitting the Kyuubi into a Yin and Yang was a necessity and sealing the Yang half inside Naruto was to make a jinchuuriki and probably give him the half that would have the most benefit for him.

Edit: mortalone, I think the chakra control thing is being exaggerated. He mastered tree walking as fast as Sasuke did despite having worst chakra control. Even when he was sealed by Orochimaru, he grasped water walking much faster than Ebisu expected and had it down as soon as the seal was removed.

This Naruto would have a far better foundation than canon Naruto and would be receiving more guidance from an earlier age. If heÆs got chakra control problems, they would probably be sorted out if his parents see him struggling with the academy jutsu or something. Unless youÆre having him develop in areas or using certain jutsu where chakra control is paramount, it shouldnÆt be too much of an issue.

Nor do I find that KB is all that responsible for his growth, at least not in the way that you mean. He grew because of the various experiences he went through, the determination that sprang forth from them, the guidance of his teachers and because his qualities made the KB an ideal basis for his developing combat style. Even if we interpret the memory aspect being present in Part 1, the KB might have had some effect on his growth but overall it wouldnÆt have been nearly as much as you seem to be suggesting. And the fact that he learned the A-rank kinjutsu in the first place spoke a lot about NarutoÆs potential.

I suppose youÆre trying to avoid Naruto becoming too strong, too fast which is understandable but I donÆt think itÆd be too much of a hazard. You could make him quite powerful by the time heÆs twelve and it wouldnÆt be unbelievable given the circumstances, but I think itÆs fine if heÆs still graduates normally but with a much improved range of skills over his canon self. Not quite sure if that last bit made sense but I hope I got my point across.

 

[Antimatter]

I am aware the Shiki Fuuin is automatically fatal, but it strikes me that of all sealing methods that was the one Minato used. There has to be a reason he sacrificed himself and there's no good reason why in advance he would know specifically to separate the Yin and Yang chakra in order to defeat Madara.

Obviously it could not be anything specific to the Moon Eye Plan or Juubi since Minato has no knowledge of those, but there could be some general reason why Yang chakra gives some unique benefit to Naruto. Either that, or Minato is an idiot.

I will say this. It seems unlikely that this will be left unexplained. Infact lots of people on other forums have suggested that the current Sasuke/Orochimaru arc is about Orochimaru having found a way to summon souls from the Death God (would have been a priority research target since it ate his hands and all) and that we might yet see Minato brought back as an edo to explain himself. Right now however, we can only speculate.

(P.S. leafninja is a reliable source that uses the manga/anime and databooks. That does not mean their information is all up to date or correct, but I'm actually a bit insulted that you dismissed it out of hand without even looking at it.)

I do tend to use Wikis myself, but I usually want a reference to the source. If that site is correct, then it should be no problem for you to give me the chapter number. No offense is intended by this. I just want to see the original version myself. I see nothing wrong with that.

Also, we do not know that the Uzumaki are related to the Senju through the younger son. We only know that they are distantly related. Hypothetically, what if the Rikkudo Sennin's wife was an Uzumaki? To be specific, the relation could be through marriage or could be even further back. We do not have the details.

99.9% certainty at this point. Some have even speculated that the original Sage WAS an Uzumaki himself (due to all the sealing stuff). Madara views Senju and Uzumaki as basically the same (when he explains Nagato to Obito) and he is basically our primary source on the Sage. add to this the fact that Uzumaki have inherited the powers that were described for the younger son exactly (even better than the Senju themselves actually, not counting Hashirama himself).

In theory, there is indeed still that tiny 0.1% possibility that it will turn out that Naruto is not a descendant of the sage, but I would not bet money on that possibility.

Oddly enough, Orochimaru doing just that summon just happened. Also learned some new tidbits about the Uzumaki clan and their connection to that jutsu.

 

[datakim]

Oddly enough, Orochimaru doing just that summon just happened.? Also learned some new tidbits about the Uzumaki clan and their connection to that jutsu.

Yeah. We learned the Uzumaki clan leaves masks capable of summoning death gods just lying around everywhere. Sigh. :headbanger:

 

[Knyght]

Tbf, they (or just it) are probably only used for unsealing so someone stealing a mask might not be that important. It's not often that someone would be willing to kill themselves to unseal someone trapped inside the Shinigami's stomach, assuming they even had that knowledge. Nor is it particularly dangerous most of the time.

 

[mortalone]

@datakim what bothered me was that you labeled my source as "fanfiction." I do not have a panel handy confirming or denying the theory that death is an important part of sealing a jinchuuriki. I do not know if the confusion stems from a mistranslation, a comment made in a databook, the anime, or Kishimoto's tendency to use the word "death" figuratively. But I also do not believe that this theory should be dismissed outright.

With regards to the Uzumaki-Sage connection, although the connection is likely through the younger son, I do not feel like the other possibility is negligible. Supposing that the Sage's wife was an Uzumaki, that would mean that her clansmen would have been the Sage's closest disciples. The comparisons between Naruto and Hashirama and Naruto and the Sage are not disproved by the Sage's wife theory. In particular, it would mean that the children of the Sage who inherited his body and eyes also inherited Uzumaki traits. Likewise if the younger son had married an Uzumaki and if that is the connection, it would again mean that Hashirama had inherited Uzumaki traits.

Also, as you said, it could be that the Sage himself was an Uzumaki and that the Uchiha and Senju clans both derive from the Uzumaki on the paternal side.

As for Nagato, correct me if I'm wrong because I do not feel like checking at this moment, but I believe that Nagato's eyes actually were Madara's Rinnegan eyes and transplanted. If so, the ability to use them may simply have to do with Uzumaki longevity.


@knight504 if it is physically and conceptually impossible to seal all of the Kyuubi, how was it done with Mito and Kushina?

And with regards to growth, it's hard to say exactly how much Naruto had grown between graduating and Wave, but I imagine it was substantial, and we know for a fact that his growth from graduating until the chuunin exams WAS substantial. Chalking this up entirely to negligent teachers would be a discredit to Iruuka. When Naruto is called "dead-last" this is very literal. His grades were (overall) the worst in his class. Iruuka described Naruto as "clumsy but hard-working" and Ebisu explained that Naruto's weakness is control. Even if he managed tree walking in the same time as Sasuke, that does not mean that his chakra control is the same. Ebisu's explanation proves this. All it proves is that Naruto has learned how to control chakra in his feet just as well as Sasuke has at that point.

Furthermore, Naruto pushed himself hard in all of that. Hard enough to pass out in the middle of the forest and get woken up by Haku. This is Naruto, who has significantly more stamina than Sasuke, being the one suffering from greater chakra fatigue, all to master this stinking exercise.

I am not dismissing Naruto's experiences. I am not dismissing the fact that he hit the jackpot in terms of getting trained by the most powerful shinobi after the academy, something which Iruuka was not. I am also not dismissing that he's a "learn by doing" type who does not function well in a classroom environment. I am also a "learn by doing" type so I understand very well exactly what that means. What I am saying is:
1. I believe chakra control to be Naruto's greatest weak point at the start of the manga.
2. Without the memory feedback elements from KB I do not believe he would have gone from dead-last to achieving the skill needed to defeat Neji and Gaara when he did unless alternatively he had been trained more extensively in Kyuubi. Defeating Kiba in the prelims? Sure. Defeating someone like Neji who Lee had never beaten? No.

Having parents will mean a higher starting point. Obviously he would not be dead-last. But it's more than just negligence that kept him from dominating the academy.

@latest chapter :no: