Harry Potter What if Hermiones grandparents Weren't British?
- Thread starter Rift120
- Start date
It is indeed true that in any straight-up, arena style duel between a muggle and a wizard, the muggle is going to lose to the guy who can fire death rays from his wand, polymorph and animate nearby objects, hypnotize people, etc.
However, that does not mean 'Wizards rule, muggles drool, forever and ever amen.' The Wizards have the advantage of actually possessing superpowers, while the Muggles have only ordinary weapons. But this is not the same thing as saying that Muggles have no advantages of their own. So, what advantages could they possibly have? I'll try to list a few I've thought of.
Troop quality: It is important to remember that the average Muggle-on-the-street knows just as much about fighting as the average humble Wizard-on-the-street -- that is to say, absolutely nothing. But they're not the ones we're worried about here, as even at the height of Voldemort's second rampage over Britain, in book 7, the vast majority of the Wizarding population did exactly the same thing that the vast majority of the civilian population does during Muggle wars -- not fight in it. And since we're talking about who'd win the fight here, that means for troop quality we look at the other end of the population's bell curve... the combatants. The people who actually aspire to careers of going out and fucking up the other guy's shit. Note: an examination of the wizarding world's common weaknesses will be addressed later, under 'Tactical Ability' and 'Knowledge of the Enemy'. Right now I'm just looking at the three particular fighting factions of Wizarding Britain, and their specific characteristics as relative to the average ordinary wizard.
First up, the Aurors, the elite operatives of the Department of Magickal Law Enforcement. For a certain definition of "elite". They do have some of the better combat training that the Wizarding World can supply, and they've been in enough fights to not panic when the shooting starts... but really, did any Auror in the books do anything that impressive, as regards fighting? (Note: Tonks, Kingsley, and Mad-Eye don't count, as while they were Aurors, they are addressed in category two, the Order of the Phoenix.) The best you can say about the Aurors is that they are adequately trained and experienced at being police for civilian wizards... but they weren't able to tactically or strategically keep up with even the Death Eaters, who weren't exactly being led by a military genius. Also, they are subject to the Ministry of Magic's standard operating procedure and bureaucratic restrictions... which, given the Ministry of Magic's legendary stupidity, means that they're fighting handcuffed and in leg irons. So, forget the Aurors when it comes to needing to fill your serious warfighting needs.
The Order of the Phoenix: Dumbledore's private vigilante team, the Order was recruited from the best and brightest wizards he could find. And mostly they live up to that representation -- barring the odd outlier like Dung, the OotP members are indeed some of the best, and definitely the most motivated, wand slingers Wizarding Britain could muster. They even poached the best available from the Auror Corps. But even they still share many of the Wizarding World's common weaknesses. Chief among them being, with few exceptions they seemed entirely unable to emotionally grasp the fact that they were in a war at all, and that fighting a war means having to kill the enemy. Most of this is Dumbledore's fault, admitted... but pointing out that the Wizarding World's most elite fighting unit has one of the most hesitant and ineffective commanders around is legitimately spotting a weakness. So, the Order falls by the wayside by possessing almost every characteristic necessary to fight a war save two: one, having enough numbers to do the job (as they are the smallest of the factions, and have already recruited up to their maximum potential), and most importantly two, by not actually having the will to fight a war.
And last, we have The Death Eaters: Wand for wand, the Inner Circle of the Death Eaters matched up fairly well vs. the Order of the Phoenix. Not entirely equal to the task, but still, it really did come down to the DEs vs. the Order, the Aurors were just getting in the way. And the DEs do have some points in their favor none of the other Wizarding contestants here possess. For one thing, they definitely don't have any hesitation about shooting to kill. Neither are they sentimentally attached to the notions of treating life like a fair dueling situation. They come closest to all of the combatants available in the Wizarding World of understanding the muggle POV when it comes to war. Except for the fact that they're largely a bunch of backshooting cowards, whose own private battle cry is 'You go through the door first! Not me! Anybody but me!' And the few exceptions to that rule (Bellatrix, Fenrir Greyback, Voldemort himself) are handicapped by being bugshit insane. So, while they can definitely boast possessing actual aggression, ruthlessness, and at least a rudimentary understanding of subversion and terror tactics, they still have their own significant shortcomings.
Numbers: Yes, its obvious, but it bears thinking about anyway. The Wizarding World simply doesn't have much population willing to actually fight. Both the Ministry of Magic, the Order of the Phoenix, and the Death Eaters spent years of time and buckets of either prestige, connections, galleons, or mix-and-match, recruiting every usable wizard they could find... and yet the Order never got above a couple dozen, and the Auror Corps never got above... well, we don't have exact #'s for either them or the Death Eaters, but from everything we saw it can't have been more than a couple hundred, each, at most.
Whereas any pissed-off muggle street gang can muster a couple dozen friends in extreme need, and if you've actually pissed off anyone official, that's it. At this point you're dealing with people who actually have armies. As in, literal armies.
And yes, numbers alone do not always win wars... there is also the question of troop quality. But we already talked about that.
Tactical Ability: This is where the Wizarding World really takes it in the pants. Because let's face it, they suck. Voldemort is one of the stupidest Evil Overlords in fiction, and yet he was the smartest motherfucker in the race for control of Wizarding Britain for many years, running rings around them all logically. Which says hideously unkind things about the rest of the contestants. Especially Dumbledore, who at the end needed bloody teenagers to do all the thinking for him as well as the fighting.
But in addition to stupidity, there is also its longtime working partner, ignorance. And even the smart wizards have buckets of that. There is no War College in the Wizarding World. There are no strategy think tanks. There are no wargames (Wizarding Chess does not count, I mean actual strategic simulations that teach at least some lessons useful to real warfare).
The Death Eaters terrified all of Wizarding Britain by discovering the concepts of basic terrorist tactics -- wear masks, threaten families, enemy strong you retreat, enemy hesitate you harass, enemy weak you attack, public intimidation works even if the target destroyed is not of actual military significance, etc. They had everybody and his squib cousin pissing their pants in fear. Twice, they brought the Wizarding government to the brink of ruin, and failed each time only due to certain flukes of metaphysics involving what happens if you try and throw an AK into Harry Potter's face.
And yet, every single tactical concept the Death Eaters discovered and used in the books, which were so horrifyingly unstoppable and outside the box to everybody else in Wizarding Britain, is basic shit any crack-dealing gangbanger thug in the Muggle World knew before he was fifteen years old. Let alone the real terrorists. I mean, seriously. The attack on the Wizarding World Cup? The Death Eater home invasions? This is not strategic genius. This is basic common sense. And yet everybody in the Wizarding World reacted like the Death Eaters were led by Alexander the Great and they were the Persians.
So, given that a contest between Muggles and Wizards must of necessity come down to asymmetric warfare, by the simple fact that Muggles outnumber Wizards by thousands to one, the question of "Which society has a better understanding of asymmetric warfare tactics?" is highly significant. And the answer is 'Muggle society. By a factor of ten zillion.' When it comes to terrorist and counter-terrorist warfare, guerrilla tactics, and military strategy, the Wizarding World is on page one of the kindergartener's introductory pamphlet, while the Muggles have not only written the book and its companion volumes but also furnished the library, staffed the university, assigned it as a term paper problem, and are currently in the process of filming the documentary series.
Which comes down to our two last questions:
Knowing the Enemy: So, we have two worlds, each with their own entirely different ways of life, entirely different mechanisms and weapons, entirely different mores and customs. Its a battle of frickin' mutual ignorance on both sides... oh, wait, its not. Why? Because there are people reasonably familiar with the Wizarding World who are exiled to the Muggle World every year... the squibs. If and when it comes to a knock-down drag-out fight between both sides, who they gonna call?
And the Muggles need to learn much less than the wizards. All they need is a basic overview of wizarding combat capabilities -- 'OK, they have the ability to Apparate, but it requires a bit of concentration. They can fire any # or kind of blasting, ripping, burning, etc, spells, but they're all direct-fire weapons and they have a max range of a couple dozen yards. They can mind control people with the Imperius, but only if they catch them first. They can shapeshift impostors, but they have to drink more polyjuice every hour... well, unless its a metamorphmagus, but they only have one and she's recognizable by her habit of tripping all over the place.' Shazam. Right there, I've at least tripled the effectiveness of my mundane soldiers and spies vs. wizards.
While for the wizards to learn what they need to fight the muggles... they'd have to join the army and be trained as muggle military officers. They'd have to learn all about muggle weapons, their use, their limitations, their capabilities. They'd have to study an overview of muggle technologies and then devote more time to brainstorming all the possible military applications of such. And they have not done any of this. And worse yet, they will not do any of this: even the pureblood wizards who *aren't* arrogant, *aren't* Muggle-haters, and in fact actually *collect Muggle trivia* are *still* hideously ignorant of how the Muggle world and Muggle technology actually works, and have made no actual efforts (such as buying and reading a Muggle high school textbook) to cure this ignorance! And yes, Arthur Weasley, Head of the Office of Misuse of Muggle Artefacts, I am looking at you.
And even the Muggleborn wizards are of no help in this context -- because they left the Muggle school system when they were 11 years old. So while they'd entirely be able to tell you about how to walk around in normal Muggle society without getting run over by a truck, or how to go into a cafe and order a meal, or maybe even use a telephone, they would be able to teach the Wizarding World absolutely nothing about how to best apply Wizarding powers to counteract Muggle armies and Muggle military weapons, because not even Hermione Granger knows a damn thing about any of the above.
So, in this war, the side that is vastly outnumbered is also vastly more ignorant of what its up against and what its opponents can do. Well, that's not good.
In this war, the only real way either side can learn about the other is through defectors. Except that no Muggle will remotely defect to the Wizarding World. Why? Because he doesn't even have basic legal rights there! OTOH, many people in the Muggle World would love to throw piles of money and hot and cold running hookers at anyone with a wand (or his squib cousin) who'd condescend to so much as teach them about what they were dealing with, let alone use his superpowers on their side.
But hey. Maybe sheer godlike power can make up for the lack of, oh, everything else, right? So at least we come to...
Firepower: The only category that the Wizards have the advantage in... at the individual level. But only at the individual level.
One fighting Wizard vs. one Muggle soldier is a notable mismatch in favor of the Wizard. The one guy can throw Unforgivables, Apparate away to safety, Disillusion himself, Transfigure various bits of the scenery to leap up and bite the other man in the donglies, etc. The Muggle soldier, on the other hand, is restricted to inflicting penetrating trauma on the other man's body.
So in a close quarters individual match, the Muggle soldier will need a significant advantage just to get in the fight at all. Such as a clear shot at the other guy's back without the other guy knowing he's there, or being out of range of the other guy's blasting hex while still within rifle range, or etc. Things he can't always rely on.
However, as we scale up the size of the fight, the wizards start getting worse and worse off, until they just aren't even in the fight at all. One wizard vs. one soldier needs a nontrivial amount of combat advantage for the soldier to win. But a squad vs. a squad is an entirely different story -- because the muggle soldiers will, almost instinctively, fight as an effective unit, while a dozen wizards are a dozen individual combatants. Not even the Order of the Phoenix or the Death Eater Inner Circle, the best and most experienced magical combatants in Wizarding Britain, ever showed even a basic awareness of ganging the fuck up on the other guy. Also, in squad-level combat, we go beyond the basic rifle and hand grenade, on up to heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, and other squad heavy weapons. But that's just the icing: the cake is that with ten wizards vs. ten muggle soldiers, there will be ten wizards trying to get in range to shoot ten different soldiers, while the soldiers are able to shoot first (having the ginormously longer-range weapons), and are concentrating all their fire on two or three wizards. And then the next two. And the next. And the next. Because while one wizard can maybe shield himself vs. one riflemen, when he's eating an entire damn volley, well, sucks to be him. And effective concentration of fire is practically spinal reflex to veteran troops, while even the most skilled fighting wizards in Britain act like they haven't even heard of the friggin' idea, let alone practiced it. Its like taking early Greeks vs. late-era Romans: the one guys believe war is all about duels between matched heroes, and the other guys are busy going 'WTF?!?' while just calmly, effectively murdering away with non-glorious volleys of missile fire.
Scale up even further. A company vs. a company. Well, the Wizards are not even in the game. For one thing, as per "numbers" above, 100 Wizards together is a significant concentration of their total available manpower... hell, the Order isn't even 100 wizards big, and the Death Eaters would have to do an almost full muster to get up that high. But how easy is it for 100 soldiers to congregate? Um, seriously, that's two platoons, not even a full company. And, of course, with this many people on the field, the odds that the wizards will all be within their fighting range (very close) to their opponents is low, while the soldiers will be within their fighting range (hundreds of yards) to every wizard. Let alone the fact that at this # of soldiers, we now have not just squad automatic weapons on the field, but armored fighting vehicles. Yes. The Humvees and the Bradleys have arrived, and, well, sucks to be you wizards.
This is before we even get into the larger scales of artillery, air support, nuclear weapons... um, what do you mean Wizarding Britain has nothing remotely comparable? Well, sucks to be them.
And, of course, I haven't even gotten into Delta Force, SAS, snipers, and the various capabilities of elite special operations units. Including things like the ability to sneak into a house full of sleeping people and murder them all without waking up the upstairs neighbors. And so forth.
Conclusion: Thanks to the existence of infallible hiding methods, such as Unplottable turf, Fidelius Charms, etc., in an all-out war between Wizards and Muggles, the Wizards would at least be able to run away and hide. But that's all they could hope to do. Their odds of winning suck ass.
However, that does not mean 'Wizards rule, muggles drool, forever and ever amen.' The Wizards have the advantage of actually possessing superpowers, while the Muggles have only ordinary weapons. But this is not the same thing as saying that Muggles have no advantages of their own. So, what advantages could they possibly have? I'll try to list a few I've thought of.
Troop quality: It is important to remember that the average Muggle-on-the-street knows just as much about fighting as the average humble Wizard-on-the-street -- that is to say, absolutely nothing. But they're not the ones we're worried about here, as even at the height of Voldemort's second rampage over Britain, in book 7, the vast majority of the Wizarding population did exactly the same thing that the vast majority of the civilian population does during Muggle wars -- not fight in it. And since we're talking about who'd win the fight here, that means for troop quality we look at the other end of the population's bell curve... the combatants. The people who actually aspire to careers of going out and fucking up the other guy's shit. Note: an examination of the wizarding world's common weaknesses will be addressed later, under 'Tactical Ability' and 'Knowledge of the Enemy'. Right now I'm just looking at the three particular fighting factions of Wizarding Britain, and their specific characteristics as relative to the average ordinary wizard.
First up, the Aurors, the elite operatives of the Department of Magickal Law Enforcement. For a certain definition of "elite". They do have some of the better combat training that the Wizarding World can supply, and they've been in enough fights to not panic when the shooting starts... but really, did any Auror in the books do anything that impressive, as regards fighting? (Note: Tonks, Kingsley, and Mad-Eye don't count, as while they were Aurors, they are addressed in category two, the Order of the Phoenix.) The best you can say about the Aurors is that they are adequately trained and experienced at being police for civilian wizards... but they weren't able to tactically or strategically keep up with even the Death Eaters, who weren't exactly being led by a military genius. Also, they are subject to the Ministry of Magic's standard operating procedure and bureaucratic restrictions... which, given the Ministry of Magic's legendary stupidity, means that they're fighting handcuffed and in leg irons. So, forget the Aurors when it comes to needing to fill your serious warfighting needs.
The Order of the Phoenix: Dumbledore's private vigilante team, the Order was recruited from the best and brightest wizards he could find. And mostly they live up to that representation -- barring the odd outlier like Dung, the OotP members are indeed some of the best, and definitely the most motivated, wand slingers Wizarding Britain could muster. They even poached the best available from the Auror Corps. But even they still share many of the Wizarding World's common weaknesses. Chief among them being, with few exceptions they seemed entirely unable to emotionally grasp the fact that they were in a war at all, and that fighting a war means having to kill the enemy. Most of this is Dumbledore's fault, admitted... but pointing out that the Wizarding World's most elite fighting unit has one of the most hesitant and ineffective commanders around is legitimately spotting a weakness. So, the Order falls by the wayside by possessing almost every characteristic necessary to fight a war save two: one, having enough numbers to do the job (as they are the smallest of the factions, and have already recruited up to their maximum potential), and most importantly two, by not actually having the will to fight a war.
And last, we have The Death Eaters: Wand for wand, the Inner Circle of the Death Eaters matched up fairly well vs. the Order of the Phoenix. Not entirely equal to the task, but still, it really did come down to the DEs vs. the Order, the Aurors were just getting in the way. And the DEs do have some points in their favor none of the other Wizarding contestants here possess. For one thing, they definitely don't have any hesitation about shooting to kill. Neither are they sentimentally attached to the notions of treating life like a fair dueling situation. They come closest to all of the combatants available in the Wizarding World of understanding the muggle POV when it comes to war. Except for the fact that they're largely a bunch of backshooting cowards, whose own private battle cry is 'You go through the door first! Not me! Anybody but me!' And the few exceptions to that rule (Bellatrix, Fenrir Greyback, Voldemort himself) are handicapped by being bugshit insane. So, while they can definitely boast possessing actual aggression, ruthlessness, and at least a rudimentary understanding of subversion and terror tactics, they still have their own significant shortcomings.
Numbers: Yes, its obvious, but it bears thinking about anyway. The Wizarding World simply doesn't have much population willing to actually fight. Both the Ministry of Magic, the Order of the Phoenix, and the Death Eaters spent years of time and buckets of either prestige, connections, galleons, or mix-and-match, recruiting every usable wizard they could find... and yet the Order never got above a couple dozen, and the Auror Corps never got above... well, we don't have exact #'s for either them or the Death Eaters, but from everything we saw it can't have been more than a couple hundred, each, at most.
Whereas any pissed-off muggle street gang can muster a couple dozen friends in extreme need, and if you've actually pissed off anyone official, that's it. At this point you're dealing with people who actually have armies. As in, literal armies.
And yes, numbers alone do not always win wars... there is also the question of troop quality. But we already talked about that.
Tactical Ability: This is where the Wizarding World really takes it in the pants. Because let's face it, they suck. Voldemort is one of the stupidest Evil Overlords in fiction, and yet he was the smartest motherfucker in the race for control of Wizarding Britain for many years, running rings around them all logically. Which says hideously unkind things about the rest of the contestants. Especially Dumbledore, who at the end needed bloody teenagers to do all the thinking for him as well as the fighting.
But in addition to stupidity, there is also its longtime working partner, ignorance. And even the smart wizards have buckets of that. There is no War College in the Wizarding World. There are no strategy think tanks. There are no wargames (Wizarding Chess does not count, I mean actual strategic simulations that teach at least some lessons useful to real warfare).
The Death Eaters terrified all of Wizarding Britain by discovering the concepts of basic terrorist tactics -- wear masks, threaten families, enemy strong you retreat, enemy hesitate you harass, enemy weak you attack, public intimidation works even if the target destroyed is not of actual military significance, etc. They had everybody and his squib cousin pissing their pants in fear. Twice, they brought the Wizarding government to the brink of ruin, and failed each time only due to certain flukes of metaphysics involving what happens if you try and throw an AK into Harry Potter's face.
And yet, every single tactical concept the Death Eaters discovered and used in the books, which were so horrifyingly unstoppable and outside the box to everybody else in Wizarding Britain, is basic shit any crack-dealing gangbanger thug in the Muggle World knew before he was fifteen years old. Let alone the real terrorists. I mean, seriously. The attack on the Wizarding World Cup? The Death Eater home invasions? This is not strategic genius. This is basic common sense. And yet everybody in the Wizarding World reacted like the Death Eaters were led by Alexander the Great and they were the Persians.
So, given that a contest between Muggles and Wizards must of necessity come down to asymmetric warfare, by the simple fact that Muggles outnumber Wizards by thousands to one, the question of "Which society has a better understanding of asymmetric warfare tactics?" is highly significant. And the answer is 'Muggle society. By a factor of ten zillion.' When it comes to terrorist and counter-terrorist warfare, guerrilla tactics, and military strategy, the Wizarding World is on page one of the kindergartener's introductory pamphlet, while the Muggles have not only written the book and its companion volumes but also furnished the library, staffed the university, assigned it as a term paper problem, and are currently in the process of filming the documentary series.
Which comes down to our two last questions:
Knowing the Enemy: So, we have two worlds, each with their own entirely different ways of life, entirely different mechanisms and weapons, entirely different mores and customs. Its a battle of frickin' mutual ignorance on both sides... oh, wait, its not. Why? Because there are people reasonably familiar with the Wizarding World who are exiled to the Muggle World every year... the squibs. If and when it comes to a knock-down drag-out fight between both sides, who they gonna call?
And the Muggles need to learn much less than the wizards. All they need is a basic overview of wizarding combat capabilities -- 'OK, they have the ability to Apparate, but it requires a bit of concentration. They can fire any # or kind of blasting, ripping, burning, etc, spells, but they're all direct-fire weapons and they have a max range of a couple dozen yards. They can mind control people with the Imperius, but only if they catch them first. They can shapeshift impostors, but they have to drink more polyjuice every hour... well, unless its a metamorphmagus, but they only have one and she's recognizable by her habit of tripping all over the place.' Shazam. Right there, I've at least tripled the effectiveness of my mundane soldiers and spies vs. wizards.
While for the wizards to learn what they need to fight the muggles... they'd have to join the army and be trained as muggle military officers. They'd have to learn all about muggle weapons, their use, their limitations, their capabilities. They'd have to study an overview of muggle technologies and then devote more time to brainstorming all the possible military applications of such. And they have not done any of this. And worse yet, they will not do any of this: even the pureblood wizards who *aren't* arrogant, *aren't* Muggle-haters, and in fact actually *collect Muggle trivia* are *still* hideously ignorant of how the Muggle world and Muggle technology actually works, and have made no actual efforts (such as buying and reading a Muggle high school textbook) to cure this ignorance! And yes, Arthur Weasley, Head of the Office of Misuse of Muggle Artefacts, I am looking at you.
And even the Muggleborn wizards are of no help in this context -- because they left the Muggle school system when they were 11 years old. So while they'd entirely be able to tell you about how to walk around in normal Muggle society without getting run over by a truck, or how to go into a cafe and order a meal, or maybe even use a telephone, they would be able to teach the Wizarding World absolutely nothing about how to best apply Wizarding powers to counteract Muggle armies and Muggle military weapons, because not even Hermione Granger knows a damn thing about any of the above.
So, in this war, the side that is vastly outnumbered is also vastly more ignorant of what its up against and what its opponents can do. Well, that's not good.
In this war, the only real way either side can learn about the other is through defectors. Except that no Muggle will remotely defect to the Wizarding World. Why? Because he doesn't even have basic legal rights there! OTOH, many people in the Muggle World would love to throw piles of money and hot and cold running hookers at anyone with a wand (or his squib cousin) who'd condescend to so much as teach them about what they were dealing with, let alone use his superpowers on their side.
But hey. Maybe sheer godlike power can make up for the lack of, oh, everything else, right? So at least we come to...
Firepower: The only category that the Wizards have the advantage in... at the individual level. But only at the individual level.
One fighting Wizard vs. one Muggle soldier is a notable mismatch in favor of the Wizard. The one guy can throw Unforgivables, Apparate away to safety, Disillusion himself, Transfigure various bits of the scenery to leap up and bite the other man in the donglies, etc. The Muggle soldier, on the other hand, is restricted to inflicting penetrating trauma on the other man's body.
So in a close quarters individual match, the Muggle soldier will need a significant advantage just to get in the fight at all. Such as a clear shot at the other guy's back without the other guy knowing he's there, or being out of range of the other guy's blasting hex while still within rifle range, or etc. Things he can't always rely on.
However, as we scale up the size of the fight, the wizards start getting worse and worse off, until they just aren't even in the fight at all. One wizard vs. one soldier needs a nontrivial amount of combat advantage for the soldier to win. But a squad vs. a squad is an entirely different story -- because the muggle soldiers will, almost instinctively, fight as an effective unit, while a dozen wizards are a dozen individual combatants. Not even the Order of the Phoenix or the Death Eater Inner Circle, the best and most experienced magical combatants in Wizarding Britain, ever showed even a basic awareness of ganging the fuck up on the other guy. Also, in squad-level combat, we go beyond the basic rifle and hand grenade, on up to heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, and other squad heavy weapons. But that's just the icing: the cake is that with ten wizards vs. ten muggle soldiers, there will be ten wizards trying to get in range to shoot ten different soldiers, while the soldiers are able to shoot first (having the ginormously longer-range weapons), and are concentrating all their fire on two or three wizards. And then the next two. And the next. And the next. Because while one wizard can maybe shield himself vs. one riflemen, when he's eating an entire damn volley, well, sucks to be him. And effective concentration of fire is practically spinal reflex to veteran troops, while even the most skilled fighting wizards in Britain act like they haven't even heard of the friggin' idea, let alone practiced it. Its like taking early Greeks vs. late-era Romans: the one guys believe war is all about duels between matched heroes, and the other guys are busy going 'WTF?!?' while just calmly, effectively murdering away with non-glorious volleys of missile fire.
Scale up even further. A company vs. a company. Well, the Wizards are not even in the game. For one thing, as per "numbers" above, 100 Wizards together is a significant concentration of their total available manpower... hell, the Order isn't even 100 wizards big, and the Death Eaters would have to do an almost full muster to get up that high. But how easy is it for 100 soldiers to congregate? Um, seriously, that's two platoons, not even a full company. And, of course, with this many people on the field, the odds that the wizards will all be within their fighting range (very close) to their opponents is low, while the soldiers will be within their fighting range (hundreds of yards) to every wizard. Let alone the fact that at this # of soldiers, we now have not just squad automatic weapons on the field, but armored fighting vehicles. Yes. The Humvees and the Bradleys have arrived, and, well, sucks to be you wizards.
This is before we even get into the larger scales of artillery, air support, nuclear weapons... um, what do you mean Wizarding Britain has nothing remotely comparable? Well, sucks to be them.
And, of course, I haven't even gotten into Delta Force, SAS, snipers, and the various capabilities of elite special operations units. Including things like the ability to sneak into a house full of sleeping people and murder them all without waking up the upstairs neighbors. And so forth.
Conclusion: Thanks to the existence of infallible hiding methods, such as Unplottable turf, Fidelius Charms, etc., in an all-out war between Wizards and Muggles, the Wizards would at least be able to run away and hide. But that's all they could hope to do. Their odds of winning suck ass.
The problem is, the Muggles in Harry Potter are just as stupid and incompetent as the wizards, including those, like the PM, who shouldn't have been. You can't apply real-world competence to them, and then apply canon incompetence to the wizards. If you do, the secret of magic would have come out years ago, even before the first rise of Moldyshorts, and the story as we saw could not have happened.
No, they are not. You are confusing stupidity (lack of brain) with ignorance (lack of knowledge). Edit: Ignorance only becomes stupidity when, like Arthur Weasley, you have every opportunity available to recognize the fact that you really don't know shit, and every opportunity to go out and learn shit, and yet you still refuse to do shit. The PM is not in a similar position: the only way he has of learning a damn thing about the wizarding world that isn't 'Accept what the Minister of Magic spoon feeds him' is 'Forcibly detain and interrogate his wizard bodyguard' -- which is an act of war against Wizarding Britain. Not something you can do to your nominal ally unless you've already decided you have nothing left to lose, and what rational reason does he have to think that at that point in time?
Edit: I suppose there are alternatives such as 'Gradually draw the man who sits in my office every day out in conversation and act on any revealing slips' (forex, the mere knowledge that Hogwarts takes muggleborns out of the school system at age 11 lets you do a records search to find out which children suddenly fall into blind spots in the educational system around that age, at which point MI-5 (disguised as social workers) goes out to their parents houses and asks 'We are surveying child safety at boarding schools. Do you have adequate communication arrangements to reach your child in an emergency? Do they have a 24-7 phone number we could call? Did your child's school adequately introduce you to all of the faculty? Let you visit and inspect the facilities? Hold a Parents' Day?' and so forth. You hit someone like the Grangers, who cannot adequately answer that question, you then bug the house and wait for next summer for the kids to come home, and listen to see who mentions magic. *bam* Time to kick in some doors and steal dem textbooks. But, this would take months of time the plot didn't have, and also be in a 'fighting a secret war' frame of mind that the Muggle government has no reason to be in (because, again, the Ministry of Magic is suppsoed to be their ally.)
The Muggles in Harry Potter are almost entirely offstage during the plot for one reason only -- they have no idea what is going on, and none of the factions involved in the Second Wizarding War is remotely interested in telling them. Indeed, the Ministry of Magic is deliberately cockblocking them from trying to find out by bullshitting them that the situation is already entirely under control, so, no need to act! And outside of a few months where the DEs did a few terrorist attacks in mundane Britain, and rogue Dementors were feeding here and there, the war was actually not being fought in the Muggle world either.
So, yes, the muggles did not know what was going on under circumstances where all possible sources of information were either not talking to them or deliberately bullshitting them, and were not involved in a war that was 99% not even being fought in their world, or against them.
Yeah, that's real epic incompetence there. /sarcasm
I already covered that under 'Knowledge of the Enemy' -- I entirely acknowledge that on day one of the Muggle vs. Wizards war, both sides start out totally not knowing shit about the other. Its just, one side is going to cure that ignorance way faster than the other one will. Because if it actually is 'Muggles vs. Wizards', as opposed to the book's 'Wizarding Civil War during which some random Muggles caught the occasional stray shot', then the situation is different.
Edit: I suppose there are alternatives such as 'Gradually draw the man who sits in my office every day out in conversation and act on any revealing slips' (forex, the mere knowledge that Hogwarts takes muggleborns out of the school system at age 11 lets you do a records search to find out which children suddenly fall into blind spots in the educational system around that age, at which point MI-5 (disguised as social workers) goes out to their parents houses and asks 'We are surveying child safety at boarding schools. Do you have adequate communication arrangements to reach your child in an emergency? Do they have a 24-7 phone number we could call? Did your child's school adequately introduce you to all of the faculty? Let you visit and inspect the facilities? Hold a Parents' Day?' and so forth. You hit someone like the Grangers, who cannot adequately answer that question, you then bug the house and wait for next summer for the kids to come home, and listen to see who mentions magic. *bam* Time to kick in some doors and steal dem textbooks. But, this would take months of time the plot didn't have, and also be in a 'fighting a secret war' frame of mind that the Muggle government has no reason to be in (because, again, the Ministry of Magic is suppsoed to be their ally.)
The Muggles in Harry Potter are almost entirely offstage during the plot for one reason only -- they have no idea what is going on, and none of the factions involved in the Second Wizarding War is remotely interested in telling them. Indeed, the Ministry of Magic is deliberately cockblocking them from trying to find out by bullshitting them that the situation is already entirely under control, so, no need to act! And outside of a few months where the DEs did a few terrorist attacks in mundane Britain, and rogue Dementors were feeding here and there, the war was actually not being fought in the Muggle world either.
So, yes, the muggles did not know what was going on under circumstances where all possible sources of information were either not talking to them or deliberately bullshitting them, and were not involved in a war that was 99% not even being fought in their world, or against them.
Yeah, that's real epic incompetence there. /sarcasm
I already covered that under 'Knowledge of the Enemy' -- I entirely acknowledge that on day one of the Muggle vs. Wizards war, both sides start out totally not knowing shit about the other. Its just, one side is going to cure that ignorance way faster than the other one will. Because if it actually is 'Muggles vs. Wizards', as opposed to the book's 'Wizarding Civil War during which some random Muggles caught the occasional stray shot', then the situation is different.
Until Voldemort starts using mind-control on high-ranking military officials. Then everyone's screwed.
Personally, I find that fics which explore magic or blend different magic systems together (Shezza's fics, jbern's fics) to be vastly more interesting than turning the HPverse into a "Muggle PWN wizards" thing, but that's just me.
Personally, I find that fics which explore magic or blend different magic systems together (Shezza's fics, jbern's fics) to be vastly more interesting than turning the HPverse into a "Muggle PWN wizards" thing, but that's just me.
Voldemort, having aspired to follow in the shoes of Grindelwald, who actually did use this methodology on Nazi officers in World War II, is about the only dude in Wizarding Britain I would actually give credit for thinking of this. Except maybe Dumbledore, who fought Grindelwald, but the idea of Dumbledore using the Imperius Curse means we are in the weirdest AU ever just for thinking about it, so, no.
Of course, if you know Voldemort is out there and able to throw the Imperius, which is knowledge any Hogwarts student (or his DADA textbook -- how to throw the Imperius is obviously not in there, but the fact of its existence and what it can do *is*) can tell you, then you can take precautions vs. that sort of thing.
Edit: Also, note that one of Kingsley's expressed purposes in guarding the PM was to keep Voldemort from throwing an Imperius on him. IIRC, they even told the PM this. So, they already know of the danger, and even the legendarily retarded Ministry of Magic was not retarded enough to ignore the thought of 'Voldemort with muggle Britain's full arsenal, oh holy shit'.
Such as have multiple people review each others' decisions at all times, have committees in the loop, have your counterintelligence people monitor people in sensitive positions for signs of psychological disturbance, 'missing time', or questionable contacts, and encourage subordinates to question orders that sound like they were given by total lunatics who want to lose the battle... which is stuff that is already done to greater or lesser extent anyway in the normal world, as protections against NORMAL subversion (i.e., traitors).
Hell, first time it happens, simply move all your senior officers into secure quarters with closed-circuit cameras on base. Next guy Apparates into one of their bedrooms at night to wave his wand and say "Imperio", that's when the reaction squad throws the flash-bang in the door and follows up with headshots.
If nothing else, one wizard can only Imperius one target per casting. Move the targets around in groups or with groups of bodyguards, and use a "multiple officers requried" procedure (like with nuclear missiles) on any really sensitive shit. Sure, the additional layers of protection slows things down non-trivially, but given the truly ginormous handicap the wizarding world is taking re: command, control, and communications to begin with, the muggle military can afford to jog with only one boot on and still win the race here.
Of course, if you know Voldemort is out there and able to throw the Imperius, which is knowledge any Hogwarts student (or his DADA textbook -- how to throw the Imperius is obviously not in there, but the fact of its existence and what it can do *is*) can tell you, then you can take precautions vs. that sort of thing.
Edit: Also, note that one of Kingsley's expressed purposes in guarding the PM was to keep Voldemort from throwing an Imperius on him. IIRC, they even told the PM this. So, they already know of the danger, and even the legendarily retarded Ministry of Magic was not retarded enough to ignore the thought of 'Voldemort with muggle Britain's full arsenal, oh holy shit'.
Such as have multiple people review each others' decisions at all times, have committees in the loop, have your counterintelligence people monitor people in sensitive positions for signs of psychological disturbance, 'missing time', or questionable contacts, and encourage subordinates to question orders that sound like they were given by total lunatics who want to lose the battle... which is stuff that is already done to greater or lesser extent anyway in the normal world, as protections against NORMAL subversion (i.e., traitors).
Hell, first time it happens, simply move all your senior officers into secure quarters with closed-circuit cameras on base. Next guy Apparates into one of their bedrooms at night to wave his wand and say "Imperio", that's when the reaction squad throws the flash-bang in the door and follows up with headshots.
If nothing else, one wizard can only Imperius one target per casting. Move the targets around in groups or with groups of bodyguards, and use a "multiple officers requried" procedure (like with nuclear missiles) on any really sensitive shit. Sure, the additional layers of protection slows things down non-trivially, but given the truly ginormous handicap the wizarding world is taking re: command, control, and communications to begin with, the muggle military can afford to jog with only one boot on and still win the race here.
Another thought that occurs to me: the odds are that at least one British military member, law enforcement agent, or government official, active or retired, (besides the PM, who IIRC is Obliviated on leaving office anyway) already knows of the existence of the Magical World, the standard recruitment age for muggleborns to go to Hogwarts, everything a Hogwarts faculty member would tell them on their basic home visit, and anything their child has told them -- becuase, natch, they are the parent of a muggleborn witch or wizard.
Of course they're not going to say a bloody thing right now, what with the prize for breaking the Statutes of Secrecy being their kid getting his wand snapped and expelled and free Obliviates all around, but if it ever comes to 'Great Britain vs. Magical Britain, the declaration of war', at this point they have to make a choice -- Queen and country, or wizarding society.
Given what wizarding society does with muggles, even if their kid chooses to go with the Ministry, they really couldn't follow him there if they wanted to...
So, if and when it came to an open break, this is one of the things that would be different: wizarding families (and squib relations) would have to pick sides. Although the squibs at least can legally move into Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade, even if they're second-class citizens there. (Which means some of them might not want to...)
Of course they're not going to say a bloody thing right now, what with the prize for breaking the Statutes of Secrecy being their kid getting his wand snapped and expelled and free Obliviates all around, but if it ever comes to 'Great Britain vs. Magical Britain, the declaration of war', at this point they have to make a choice -- Queen and country, or wizarding society.
Given what wizarding society does with muggles, even if their kid chooses to go with the Ministry, they really couldn't follow him there if they wanted to...
So, if and when it came to an open break, this is one of the things that would be different: wizarding families (and squib relations) would have to pick sides. Although the squibs at least can legally move into Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade, even if they're second-class citizens there. (Which means some of them might not want to...)
And to try and steer things back towards the original topic, the specific case of 'Hermione has Gurkha relatives, who eventually invite themselves/are invited into the plot of the books.'
Several things apply here in favor of her family reunion:
* They will have adequate knowledge of what they are going up against. (At minimum, they will know everything Hermione can tell them about what sort of dangers the Death Eaters can bring, and when to duck.)
* They will not be remotely interested in fighting fair. (They're Gurkhas. And in the suggested plot seed, they're fighting because someone fucked with their family. We are talking "the Death Eaters only think they know what the word 'ruthless' means" kind of stuff. We're talking silenced headshots from way out in the dark, luring Death Eaters into apparating on top of land mines, turning houses into deathtraps, demonstrations of how chlorine gas and napalm can be made from common household products (they can!), the whole nine yards.)
* They may very well be fighting alongside friendly wizards. (While Dumbledore will totally be throwing a case of the vapors at inviting Muggles to the party at all, let alone inviting Muggles with guns, knives, bombs, and both a serious intent and some epically serious training at handing out death to the enemy, I'm pretty sure that if you got Mad-Eye or Kingsley alone and told them the Gurkhas wanted magical fire support and some help in locating Death Eater strongholds to attack, they might just agree! If nothing else, Harry might be up for it... Lord knows that he spent years of his life praying for someone else to friggin' kill Voldemort, he damn sure didn't want to do it by himself.)
So, really, the story is entirely doable.
Several things apply here in favor of her family reunion:
* They will have adequate knowledge of what they are going up against. (At minimum, they will know everything Hermione can tell them about what sort of dangers the Death Eaters can bring, and when to duck.)
* They will not be remotely interested in fighting fair. (They're Gurkhas. And in the suggested plot seed, they're fighting because someone fucked with their family. We are talking "the Death Eaters only think they know what the word 'ruthless' means" kind of stuff. We're talking silenced headshots from way out in the dark, luring Death Eaters into apparating on top of land mines, turning houses into deathtraps, demonstrations of how chlorine gas and napalm can be made from common household products (they can!), the whole nine yards.)
* They may very well be fighting alongside friendly wizards. (While Dumbledore will totally be throwing a case of the vapors at inviting Muggles to the party at all, let alone inviting Muggles with guns, knives, bombs, and both a serious intent and some epically serious training at handing out death to the enemy, I'm pretty sure that if you got Mad-Eye or Kingsley alone and told them the Gurkhas wanted magical fire support and some help in locating Death Eater strongholds to attack, they might just agree! If nothing else, Harry might be up for it... Lord knows that he spent years of his life praying for someone else to friggin' kill Voldemort, he damn sure didn't want to do it by himself.)
So, really, the story is entirely doable.
Actually, my post re: Gurkhas was more about muggles and wizards fighting side by side, and the wonderful results that could be achieved thereby. Seeing as how two out of three bullet points are about how useful it is that they have non-Voldemort wizards to tell them things before lack of knowledge about those things gets them AK'ed in the face.
But really, its not so much that Muggles are awesomely smart and incapable of error as it is the sad fact that thanks to J.K. Rowling's plots being fueled by epic overuse of the Idiot Ball, the bar necessary for outsmarting Wizarding society is set really, really low.
Let's face it. There is a reason people keep writing fanfics where, armed with the common sense that God gave your average cynical Muggle teenager, Harry Potter, Hermione Granger, or Insert Name Here ends up tearing the entire Wizarding World a new arsehole. Or fanfics where Voldemort reads the Evil Overlord List and his brain explodes from sheer overload as he tries to assimilate concepts vastly beyond his understanding. Or similar. And that reason is, because Rowling really did boink the beagle on the issue. You may not like it, but there it is.
But really, its not so much that Muggles are awesomely smart and incapable of error as it is the sad fact that thanks to J.K. Rowling's plots being fueled by epic overuse of the Idiot Ball, the bar necessary for outsmarting Wizarding society is set really, really low.
Let's face it. There is a reason people keep writing fanfics where, armed with the common sense that God gave your average cynical Muggle teenager, Harry Potter, Hermione Granger, or Insert Name Here ends up tearing the entire Wizarding World a new arsehole. Or fanfics where Voldemort reads the Evil Overlord List and his brain explodes from sheer overload as he tries to assimilate concepts vastly beyond his understanding. Or similar. And that reason is, because Rowling really did boink the beagle on the issue. You may not like it, but there it is.
Yes JKR AK'd the magical worlds logic and commen sense circuits at inception. Other wise it would have been a different story. Lord knows Fudge and Dumbles both needed to be AK'd to get the Iron boot off the foot of the Auror force. Those that weren't sympathizers or relations to the DE. Add in a almost Roman patronage system and a total lack of democracy in the government and voila the Wizarding world by JKR is ham strung from day one. :headbanger:
Love your arguments Chuckg, goin to pull them and keep them as the arguments are clear and well thought out :yay: ....
t: How about this for a plot bunny...Justin Flitch-Flechly's maternal Uncle turns out to be a wizard also. But is a member of Her Majasteys armed services. Who kept up his mundane studies and after Hogwarts went on to Sandhurst. Hears Justin complaing about Muggles studies military weapons and the Martini Henry rifle being shown as latest Rifle in the Muggle Arsenal.
Comes in and talks to the Muggle studies Professor and invites the entire school to a live fire demonstration...small arms through watching an air strike and a couple of battteries of artillery getting a chance to do a time on target/'walking wall' artilley demonstration.... :evil:
Love your arguments Chuckg, goin to pull them and keep them as the arguments are clear and well thought out :yay: ....
t: How about this for a plot bunny...Justin Flitch-Flechly's maternal Uncle turns out to be a wizard also. But is a member of Her Majasteys armed services. Who kept up his mundane studies and after Hogwarts went on to Sandhurst. Hears Justin complaing about Muggles studies military weapons and the Martini Henry rifle being shown as latest Rifle in the Muggle Arsenal. Comes in and talks to the Muggle studies Professor and invites the entire school to a live fire demonstration...small arms through watching an air strike and a couple of battteries of artillery getting a chance to do a time on target/'walking wall' artilley demonstration.... :evil:
Ignore logic at your own risk. The fact that thousands of fanfics/authors/fans are saying the same thing should clue you in that this is not total bullshit.
I mean, come on. JKR already has the canon story wanking off as to how wizards are awesome (and to be fair, they have the potential to be). It's only to be expected, and fair that those who root for Muggle representation also be allowed to state their side.
You can do three general things of which there are many varieties.
a. You can join the bloody debate. Bring your canon, your flames, and your trolls for awesome combat.
b. You can stay away. For every "Muggles pwn Wizards" story, there are dozens where Muggles don't appear. At. All. Stories where the world doesn't seem to exist beyond the boundaries of your favourite wizard characters are all too common.
c. You can whine.
I mean, come on. JKR already has the canon story wanking off as to how wizards are awesome (and to be fair, they have the potential to be). It's only to be expected, and fair that those who root for Muggle representation also be allowed to state their side.
You can do three general things of which there are many varieties.
a. You can join the bloody debate. Bring your canon, your flames, and your trolls for awesome combat.
b. You can stay away. For every "Muggles pwn Wizards" story, there are dozens where Muggles don't appear. At. All. Stories where the world doesn't seem to exist beyond the boundaries of your favourite wizard characters are all too common.
c. You can whine.
This is TFF.... I'm pretty sure everyone here is gonna choose option A :sweat2:
And in regards to Muggles PWNING wizards... All we really see in a lot of these fics are the wizards in the United Kingdom... What about African wizards? or American wizards... or heck... I wanna see some freaking Maori wizards...
And in regards to Muggles PWNING wizards... All we really see in a lot of these fics are the wizards in the United Kingdom... What about African wizards? or American wizards... or heck... I wanna see some freaking Maori wizards...
@chuckg: Earlier you posted that squibs would side with the muggle world. I would contest that by pointing out that, of the three known squibs, two side with Dumbledore/Wizarding World (Arabella Figg, Argus Filch) and one 'isn't talked about' (the Squib Weasley, who would therefore have very little interaction with the wizarding world).
You make some very interesting points, most of which I agree with. There is no doubt that a muggle army could easily destroy a wizarding 'army'. But, as you have also said, there's no way for either side to 'win' thanks to compulsion charms and such that prevent muggles from interacting with the wizarding world. Those same spells would prevent Ghurkas from actively engaging death eaters on their own soil and it's near pointless to try and form a rapid response to terrorists who can teleport anywhere in Britain.
It's hard to quantify such an argument since the only interaction between muggles and wizards in the books comes from muggles being obliviated or wizards tampering with muggle objects.
You make some very interesting points, most of which I agree with. There is no doubt that a muggle army could easily destroy a wizarding 'army'. But, as you have also said, there's no way for either side to 'win' thanks to compulsion charms and such that prevent muggles from interacting with the wizarding world. Those same spells would prevent Ghurkas from actively engaging death eaters on their own soil and it's near pointless to try and form a rapid response to terrorists who can teleport anywhere in Britain.
It's hard to quantify such an argument since the only interaction between muggles and wizards in the books comes from muggles being obliviated or wizards tampering with muggle objects.
To play the devils advocate here tho...
Many DE's don't exactly skulk in wizaridng society.. in fact even before the 4th book it was rather a open secret about who was a death eater in public and who wasn't..
the point being that most DE in public don't feel the need to hide themselves from even insuinations about what they do or did when wearing a robe and mask... aside from a perfunctory 'oh I was imperioed'....
What this means is you have DE's who walk in public in complete confidence they are safe and won't be attacked. (and to eb fair neither of the opposiont of Aurors or Order members are the type to take advantage of such habits... ) Which is ample fodder for a more ruthless muggle to take advnatage of (Say for example 'Known DE deposits his pay check at gringotts every saturday at sometime.... using the daigon alley apparation point... the hard part here isn't killing him for a muggle, but rather infilitrating Diagon alley and setting up a stake out on the appointed day without raising suspicion... )
Many DE's don't exactly skulk in wizaridng society.. in fact even before the 4th book it was rather a open secret about who was a death eater in public and who wasn't..
the point being that most DE in public don't feel the need to hide themselves from even insuinations about what they do or did when wearing a robe and mask... aside from a perfunctory 'oh I was imperioed'....
What this means is you have DE's who walk in public in complete confidence they are safe and won't be attacked. (and to eb fair neither of the opposiont of Aurors or Order members are the type to take advantage of such habits... ) Which is ample fodder for a more ruthless muggle to take advnatage of (Say for example 'Known DE deposits his pay check at gringotts every saturday at sometime.... using the daigon alley apparation point... the hard part here isn't killing him for a muggle, but rather infilitrating Diagon alley and setting up a stake out on the appointed day without raising suspicion... )
Would side with the Muggle world in the event of open war between the Muggle and Wizarding worlds. Since that has not happened yet in the books, their behavior is not much of a clue. The Muggle & Wizarding Worlds have not come to an open break, so there's no need to choose sides. On the other hand, if things all go to shit and it's time to everyone for nut up or shut up (why yes, I did see Zombieland recently, now that you mention it *g*), at least one squib is going to go over the fence.
And since they only need one squib to, oh, tell them where Diagon Alley is or suchlike, well, even the canon supports me here: they did get at least one squib.
As far as preventing the Gurkhas from engaging the Death Eaters... it must be remembered that in the context of the story as originally proposed, the Gurkhas very likely have at least one wizard helping them, so its not 'Muggles vs. Wizards', its 'Muggles help wizards fuck up Death Eaters'.
Edit: Also, when the DEs start hitting Muggle families in their homes, well, its ambush time.
And since they only need one squib to, oh, tell them where Diagon Alley is or suchlike, well, even the canon supports me here: they did get at least one squib.
As far as preventing the Gurkhas from engaging the Death Eaters... it must be remembered that in the context of the story as originally proposed, the Gurkhas very likely have at least one wizard helping them, so its not 'Muggles vs. Wizards', its 'Muggles help wizards fuck up Death Eaters'.
Edit: Also, when the DEs start hitting Muggle families in their homes, well, its ambush time.
Tentrees said:
Yes JKR AK'd the magical worlds logic and commen sense circuits at inception. Other wise it would have been a different story.á Lord knows Fudge and Dumbles both needed to be AK'd to get the Iron boot off the foot of the Auror force. Those that weren't sympathizers or relations to the DE. Add in a almost Roman patronage system and a total lack of democracy in the government and voila the Wizarding world by JKR is ham strung from day one.á :headbanger:
Love your arguments Chuckg, goin to pull them and keep them as the arguments are clear and well thought out :yay: ....t: How about this for a plot bunny...Justin Flitch-Flechly's maternal Uncle turns out to be a wizard also. But is a member of Her Majasteys armed services. Who kept up his mundane studies and after Hogwarts went on to Sandhurst. Hears Justin complaing about Muggles studies military weapons and the Martini Henry rifle being shown as latest Rifle in the Muggle Arsenal.
Comes in and talks to the Muggle studies Professor and invites the entire school to a live fire demonstration...small arms through watching an air strike and a couple of battteries of artillery getting a chance to do a time on target/'walking wall'á artilley demonstration.... :evil:
Love your arguments Chuckg, goin to pull them and keep them as the arguments are clear and well thought out :yay: ....
t: How about this for a plot bunny...Justin Flitch-Flechly's maternal Uncle turns out to be a wizard also. But is a member of Her Majasteys armed services. Who kept up his mundane studies and after Hogwarts went on to Sandhurst. Hears Justin complaing about Muggles studies military weapons and the Martini Henry rifle being shown as latest Rifle in the Muggle Arsenal. Comes in and talks to the Muggle studies Professor and invites the entire school to a live fire demonstration...small arms through watching an air strike and a couple of battteries of artillery getting a chance to do a time on target/'walking wall'á artilley demonstration.... :evil:
My point was that most squibs would side with the wizarding world or would have so little knowledge of the wizarding world that they would be of little use for intelligence. And just how many squibs are there anyway? It's been established that by Rowling's (frankly ridiculous) maths there are less than 10,000 wizards in the UK and squibs are rare enough to become almost a taboo (no-one really talks about them, as Ron said, except as an insult).
Wizards have been hiding in the area of diagon alley has been hidden from muggles since BC times (if Ollivander's wand shop is to be believed). I highly doubt that muggles will be able to find it so easily just from a squib with few ties to the wizarding world speculating where the entrances are.
I'll accept this as creative licence. The original idea for the story was blatently meant to be amusing and awesomsauce and I need to stop over analysing.
In regards to this, however, I would like to point out that DE can strike randomly in virtually any home in the country. I'd like to see ghurkas setting up ambushes in the millions of homes and businesses in London, let alone the rest of the country.
Wizards have been hiding in the area of diagon alley has been hidden from muggles since BC times (if Ollivander's wand shop is to be believed). I highly doubt that muggles will be able to find it so easily just from a squib with few ties to the wizarding world speculating where the entrances are.
I'll accept this as creative licence. The original idea for the story was blatently meant to be amusing and awesomsauce and I need to stop over analysing.
In regards to this, however, I would like to point out that DE can strike randomly in virtually any home in the country. I'd like to see ghurkas setting up ambushes in the millions of homes and businesses in London, let alone the rest of the country.
re: squibs -- it only takes one. And as for what knowledge they could bring? Um, the physical locations of Hogwarts, Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley, Hogsmeade, and the Ministry of Magic? How to use the Floo Network? Not to mention the names and home addresses of at least some wizards, i.e., their parents' friends?
And as soon as you've captured so much as one complete set of textbooks from someone doing their NEWT year, shazam, you have the Idiot's Guide To Magic. What categories of it exist, what some of the more well-known fighting spells are, an entire encyclopedia of known potions and charms, and the full list of what wizards can't do (because they start teaching that in First Year). Sure, its hardly 100% total knowledge of every spell ever, but its still enormously more than ignorance. For example, the simple knowledge that the Killing Curse has no magical defense, but cannot penetrate solid objects, tells you right then and there how not to killed by the Unforgivables -- snipe from cover.
And as a more general principle, in any all-out war between the Wizarding and Muggle worlds, there is more than one reason for squibs, wizards, etc., to defect to the muggle side... but there is *no* reason for muggles to defect to the wizarding side. This is a significant advantage in the information war.
As far as striking randomly in any home... um, I was referring to the DEs lovely habits of attacking the families of muggleborn Hogwarts students. That's a much shorter list, and one that Hermione or any friendly wizard can give them.
Its also a list that can be affected, by having Hermione or etc. troll hot leads on juicy targets within Draco's hearing, secure in the knowledge that he'll narc to his daddy and aunt Bella...
And as soon as you've captured so much as one complete set of textbooks from someone doing their NEWT year, shazam, you have the Idiot's Guide To Magic. What categories of it exist, what some of the more well-known fighting spells are, an entire encyclopedia of known potions and charms, and the full list of what wizards can't do (because they start teaching that in First Year). Sure, its hardly 100% total knowledge of every spell ever, but its still enormously more than ignorance. For example, the simple knowledge that the Killing Curse has no magical defense, but cannot penetrate solid objects, tells you right then and there how not to killed by the Unforgivables -- snipe from cover.
And as a more general principle, in any all-out war between the Wizarding and Muggle worlds, there is more than one reason for squibs, wizards, etc., to defect to the muggle side... but there is *no* reason for muggles to defect to the wizarding side. This is a significant advantage in the information war.
As far as striking randomly in any home... um, I was referring to the DEs lovely habits of attacking the families of muggleborn Hogwarts students. That's a much shorter list, and one that Hermione or any friendly wizard can give them.
Its also a list that can be affected, by having Hermione or etc. troll hot leads on juicy targets within Draco's hearing, secure in the knowledge that he'll narc to his daddy and aunt Bella...
Hogwarts is Unplottable; you can't give a physical location when you can't point out where it is beyond 'somewhere in Scotland'. I'd warrent there's also some similar form of protections on Diagon Alley and the like; or else they would have been discovered long ago.
I'll grant you that Death Eaters strike at muggleborns houses and that would certainly be a good route to take in order to spring a trap on them.
Taking school books, on the other hand, would be an interesting point to discuss. Magic follows no logic or science that muggles can apply to it. Even in potions, arguably the most comparable to science/cookery, things can go wrong if you stir it anti-clockwise rather than the opposite; something that would seem ridiculous to an everyday scientist. And it also wouldn't give you full knowledge of spells not taught in the curriculem, as in the dark curses Death Eaters use and the spells Aurors are, presumably, introduced to. Although you are definitely correct in that it would give an advantage.
I'll grant you that Death Eaters strike at muggleborns houses and that would certainly be a good route to take in order to spring a trap on them.
Taking school books, on the other hand, would be an interesting point to discuss. Magic follows no logic or science that muggles can apply to it. Even in potions, arguably the most comparable to science/cookery, things can go wrong if you stir it anti-clockwise rather than the opposite; something that would seem ridiculous to an everyday scientist. And it also wouldn't give you full knowledge of spells not taught in the curriculem, as in the dark curses Death Eaters use and the spells Aurors are, presumably, introduced to. Although you are definitely correct in that it would give an advantage.
* Yes, but unplottable locations can still be physically travelled to by mundane means. Unplottable merely means that it falls off the map... not that it can't be located without a native guide. Diagon Alley especially -- all the squib has to do is walk them to the entrance, then show them the brick. Shazam.
* Muggles could not learn how to do magic themselves from reading the books, not even potions. This is entirely true. However, "know your enemy" is still vastly useful... it is ginormously easier to do a Bruce Wayne on your superpowered opponent if you have a more precise readout on what exactly his powers and their limitations are, than if all you know is 'He can do magic.'
And yes, the advanced combat spells are not themselves taught even in NEWT-level DADA... however, the fact of their existence is mentioned, along with generalities about them (as, of course, you have to know at least the basic limitations and counters vs. high-end Dark curses in order to be able to evade or block them, this being NEWT-level Defense Against The Dark Arts).
Not to mention that the instant you know that the vast majority of wizards cannot do any magic without their wands, right there, from that alone you can write an entire book on how to beat down and capture some wizards. Notably, sap them when they aren't looking, then make sure they wake up chained to the wall and without the stick. The next step involves several burly SAS guys introducing them to this new Muggle sport called "waterboarding".
* Muggles could not learn how to do magic themselves from reading the books, not even potions. This is entirely true. However, "know your enemy" is still vastly useful... it is ginormously easier to do a Bruce Wayne on your superpowered opponent if you have a more precise readout on what exactly his powers and their limitations are, than if all you know is 'He can do magic.'
And yes, the advanced combat spells are not themselves taught even in NEWT-level DADA... however, the fact of their existence is mentioned, along with generalities about them (as, of course, you have to know at least the basic limitations and counters vs. high-end Dark curses in order to be able to evade or block them, this being NEWT-level Defense Against The Dark Arts).
Not to mention that the instant you know that the vast majority of wizards cannot do any magic without their wands, right there, from that alone you can write an entire book on how to beat down and capture some wizards. Notably, sap them when they aren't looking, then make sure they wake up chained to the wall and without the stick. The next step involves several burly SAS guys introducing them to this new Muggle sport called "waterboarding".
Real gold mine for the Mundane government would be a family library that a disgruntled squib or a pureblood who is being frozen out of the Ministry by the faactions in power or having lost family to the incompotence of both the DE and the Ministry shops a good portion of the library to them. Then starts buying books for them on the side.
If they weren't already doing it using other squibs/muggleborn 'buying for their employer, a house bound older gentlemen who likes to do lots of reasearch'. This gives them a lot of information. After all a shop keeper will sell to anyone with cash. Especially in Knockturn Alley.
All the plot has to be is plausable-vermisitude and the last items I pointed out would fit in canon very well.
If they weren't already doing it using other squibs/muggleborn 'buying for their employer, a house bound older gentlemen who likes to do lots of reasearch'. This gives them a lot of information. After all a shop keeper will sell to anyone with cash. Especially in Knockturn Alley.
All the plot has to be is plausable-vermisitude and the last items I pointed out would fit in canon very well.
@Chuckg:
A squib would take a bunch of muggle soldiers to the Leaky Cauldron and walk inside while the soldiers walked on, thanks to muggle-repelling charms. Wizards are nothing if not good at hiding their activities from muggles. One thing that a squib could do would be to show the general area, ie the street the pub is located, and then intercept/ambush points could be set up around it.
I find it hard to believe that they could get into Diagon Alley without a working wand, however. And if they're Unplottable then you can hardly put in their co-ordinates for indirect fire. It's one of the problems with the duex ex machina that is HPverse magic.
@Tentrees:
I can't really see squibs going into Knockturn Alley and not coming out hexed/cursed. The alley is canonically the 'seedy' part of town where all those undesirables who support Voldemort's ideals hang out for a giggle.
And purebloods siding with the muggle government over the wizarding one? Even the Weasleys would choose the latter.
A squib would take a bunch of muggle soldiers to the Leaky Cauldron and walk inside while the soldiers walked on, thanks to muggle-repelling charms. Wizards are nothing if not good at hiding their activities from muggles. One thing that a squib could do would be to show the general area, ie the street the pub is located, and then intercept/ambush points could be set up around it.
I find it hard to believe that they could get into Diagon Alley without a working wand, however. And if they're Unplottable then you can hardly put in their co-ordinates for indirect fire. It's one of the problems with the duex ex machina that is HPverse magic.
@Tentrees:
I can't really see squibs going into Knockturn Alley and not coming out hexed/cursed. The alley is canonically the 'seedy' part of town where all those undesirables who support Voldemort's ideals hang out for a giggle.
And purebloods siding with the muggle government over the wizarding one? Even the Weasleys would choose the latter.