Harry Potter What's with all the hate for the word "muggle"

[slickrcbd]

I've just been reading "Help of a Seer" by Aealket and it once again had Harry's side stating they hate the term "muggle" and wanting to come up with something new like "non-magical" or "mundane". What's the big deal about it? I can understand and agree with hating the term "mudblood", but muggle is just the word meaning non-magical.

I realize that it is directly analogous to the terms for people with dark skin colors originally found in Africa. Originally the generic, non-insulting term was "Negro", with "Nigger" being the insulting term. Then they thought "Negro" was too closely assocaited with slavery, so they rechristened the word "Colored" to mean them. Then, after getting rid of segregation, they decided that the word "Colored" was too closely associated with segregation, so they decided to call them "Blacks". Now, for reasons I'm completely baffled by, they've decided that calling them "Black" is offensive, and now should be called "African American", (although what such people who are citizens of Canada, or England, should be called I'm not sure).

I see hating the term "Muggle" as no different from hating the term "Black", although I acknowledge it's probably more like hating the term "Colored".

What's with all the hatred of a simple word?

 

[Reikson]

<a href='http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Muggle#Etymology' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>An explanation, maychance?</a>

It's also an obsolete term referring to a joint, and has come to mean someone who's useless or with no special skill.

EDIT: I don't think that you'd appreciate being obliquely classified as a "useless idiot" of any kind, do you?

 

[nuclear death frog]

Most likely, people see it as an insult, if a rather condescending and limited one. This would stem from the fact that magical society bothered to come up with a particular word, and any time you class people together like that, you risk it coming off as insulting. Personally, I think that if you believe "Muggle" is insulting, you should probably think "mundane" is as well, since non-magical people are the rule, not the exception. Magical people are, by orders of magnitude, the exception.

 

[ilalthal]

Most likely, people see it as an insult, if a rather condescending and limited one. This would stem from the fact that magical society bothered to come up with a particular word, and any time you class people together like that, you risk it coming off as insulting. Personally, I think that if you believe "Muggle" is insulting, you should probably think "mundane" is as well, since non-magical people are the rule, not the exception. Magical people are, by orders of magnitude, the exception.

mundane- common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative

muggle: a common person, esp. one who is ignorant or has no skills
Example: There are muggles in every computer class.


Both have a very similar meaning and it makes sence. They can wave a stick and make dreams reality. What about that is not wonderous?

 

[Ryuugi]

Well, you kind of have to make up a term for people who don't have magic, since there isn't one. I mean, we all know that magic users are Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Witches, etc. But what would you call someone without magic? Wizards are human, so 'human' doesn't work.

Normals, then? Mundanes? Those are at least as insulting as Muggle.

 

[Ninsaneja]

Everything eventually becomes a slur as we approach the political correctness singularity.

Except no matter what, it seems like people are allowed to use slurs against asians and jews. The plight of being the chosen people I suppose

Hell, they only get pissed at celebrities in america when they use slurs against jews on non-jewish people, like mel gibson did to that poor non-jewish cop.

 

[valhamain]

Well, i must say that the word "muggle" didn't bother me that much before learning its origin.

Now, i find it rather insulting.

Wizards, either light or dark are essentialy dismissing the non-magical people as defenseless guilible idiots.

Regardless the achievement of the muggle world, be it art, science, conquest, philosophy, good, evil, etc...

It is rather galling, isn't?

Good wizards are patronizing jerks who look down at muggle as if they were poor handicapped puppies who still managed to learn some funny tricks in spite of lacking magic.

Evil one see victimes to exploit.

Beyond this issue, one has to wonder why the wizard are hiding from the muggle considering that mundanes are nearly defenseless against magic.

 

[Drawde]

Beyond this issue, one has to wonder why the wizard are hiding from the muggle considering that mundanes are nearly defenseless against magic.

Back before they hid from the muggles the wizards mostly lived amongst them, and still do. Except back then they were easier to find. And the wizards have few spells that can affect an area, which means numbers could still take most of them down. And the muggles vastly outnumber the wizards.

Also, as I believe was mentioned by either Ron or his father, they wouldn't leave the wizards alone. Constantly asking for stuff do be done for them.

As for the dislike for the word "muggle", it's something that so many people, especially those endorsing Political Correctness, forget. It's not the word describing the condition that's offensive, it's the condition itself. As long as there's people who don't like something, whether it's lack of magical ability or skin color, no matter what you call it those people are going to use it as an insult. It doesn't matter how often you change the word describing it, the people who don't like it are going to use ALL those words as insults.

 

[Lord Raine]

What's with all the hate for the word "muggle"?

I'll make this simple, since, in all honesty, it kind of is.

Muggle as a word is not an insult. The way wizards use it is. Ergo, it is insulting, and kind of racist. That's the driving motivation behind pretty much every term used to refer to other groups of people by race or appearance. African-Americans used to be called 'coloreds,' but that got turned into an insult, so it became inappropriate. The same thing goes for negro (which is where the word nigger comes from). We don't use those words anymore because, while initially just words used to refer to African-Americans as a group, they became slurs because of how they were used, and thus became inappropriate as we ourselves became more tolerant.

It's not the word that is bad. It's how it's used. Using a word as a slur will turn it into one, and once you take that step, you can't really ever go back. The wizards have only themselves to blame for Muggle becoming a racist slur against every nonmagical person, because they are the ones who used it like that.

And no, it's not necessarily something inherent to the idea that there is an 'us' and a 'them.' Mages in World of Darkness refer to the people who are unaware of magic as "Sleepers," because they are not 'awake' to the truth of magic existing. Hence why the mage supplement is called Mage: The Awakening. Sleeper isn't a derogatory term. It's just a term, because no one ever uses 'sleeper' as an insult.

It's the wizards of Harry Potter that made Muggle a racist slur. It didn't have to be. But because of their actions and behavior, it became that.

Beyond this issue, one has to wonder why the wizard are hiding from the muggle considering that mundanes are nearly defenseless against magic.

We got an answer to this in the very first book. Hagrid flat-out stated that "if they knew about us, the muggles wouldn't leave us alone, and would always be asking for magic solutions to all their problems. So we just keep to ourselves."

The wizards aren't hiding because they're afraid (though they probably should be, considering what the majority of the world would do to to them if they found out about all this bullshit). They're hiding because they can't be assed to try and cure cancer or clothe the poor or feed the hungry with magic, because they're so busy. . . doing. . . things? Apparently?

Really, just because they can't be assed. That's why.

 

[ilalthal]

The wizards aren't hiding because they're afraid (though they probably should be, considering what the majority of the world would do to to them if they found out about all this bullshit). They're hiding because they can't be assed to try and cure cancer or clothe the poor or feed the hungry with magic, because they're so busy. . . doing. . . things? Apparently?

Really, just because they can't be assed. That's why.

Just like everyone. even us.

 

[zeebee1]

I'm pretty sure curing cancer and ending famine would pay well.

 

[nairit]

ehhhh......

too much work.

 

[slickrcbd]

I'm pretty sure curing cancer and ending famine would pay well.

The problem is that the demand would outstrip the supply, and the wizards would also no doubt be accused of gouging if they tried to use price to ration things. There would be calls to nationalize them as valuable assets and draft them into service using their skills for the public good. Aka, enslave them and make them use their magic to cure all those illnesses like the cold that can't be cured through normal means, or fixing broken bones in seconds instead of months.

From what we can tell, the magical plants are hard to cultivate in the numbers needed to support the world at large. That's just potions ingredients. Plus, what if the mage in question doesn't want to be a healer or whatever, but wants to pursue other interests like creating joke items? He's holding out on us and not doing his duty to use his talents for the good of all!

 

[MTing]

I'm pretty sure curing cancer and ending famine would pay well.

The problem is that the demand would outstrip the supply, and the wizards would also no doubt be accused of gouging if they tried to use price to ration things. There would be calls to nationalize them as valuable assets and draft them into service using their skills for the public good. Aka, enslave them and make them use their magic to cure all those illnesses like the cold that can't be cured through normal means, or fixing broken bones in seconds instead of months.

From what we can tell, the magical plants are hard to cultivate in the numbers needed to support the world at large. That's just potions ingredients. Plus, what if the mage in question doesn't want to be a healer or whatever, but wants to pursue other interests like creating joke items? He's holding out on us and not doing his duty to use his talents for the good of all!

This idea makes sense except that you can't force someone to be something.

Can you force people to become doctors? How about engineers? Or Architects? When a profession requires years of study to not screw up, you really can't force them to be that.
Especially when the person involved can teleport and magic up hiding places.

I don't want people building my house or making my highways if they suck at their job. I admit, I have no idea how long it takes to become a medi-wizard, or a potions master, or a ingredients gatherer, but I would think that it takes some expertise and training.

 

[Prince Charon]

One thought I had was that there's a spell or ritual that is reputed to make the caster (or subject, whichever) immune to damage caused by muggles (if it doesn't work, they don't know). There's no canon support for this, beyond the fact that the Wizards are pretty damn arrogant about muggles being harmless, which could be explained by simply being ignorant. OTOH, if there's a still-valid reason for their belief, that spell/ritual is a reasonable source.

One version, which wouldn't alter the story to much, is that it involves sacrificing a muggle virgin, and thus, only very dark and/or racist families use it to protect their children (cough::Malfoys::cough).

 

[Rahhel]

I'm pretty sure curing cancer and ending famine would pay well.

Wizards can cure cancer? Not sure if I remember that being mentioned.

Also didn't Hermione mention that food couldn't be conjured when Ron was bitching during their camping trip?

So far wizards have the fastest and cleanest methods of transportation and secure ways to apprehend robbers. There are probably some more advantages, but those two seem to be the most obvious that can be seen in the books.

...they've decided that calling them "Black" is offensive, and now should be called "African American...

Wasn't there someone who took offense to the term African American because he got nothing to with Africa. He actually preferred to be called black instead.

 

[LightningHunter]

I'm pretty sure curing cancer and ending famine would pay well.

Wizards can cure cancer? Not sure if I remember that being mentioned.

Also didn't Hermione mention that food couldn't be conjured when Ron was bitching during their camping trip?

True, but as there exists a Refilling charm, so maybe wizards can make food if they have something to start with...

Or then again, wait. I think I just figured out something.

The whole "can't make food" stuff doesn't make sense if you consider wizards can conjure actual living creatures, flowers, and so on. So what if they can conjure food, but not make it? It just vanishes from the body afterwards, taking any nutrients or sustenance with it. So there's no real point to eating it.

(Or maybe when they conjure it, they can't add taste or whatever and the conjuration is more like a hollow shell of what that thing should actually be...)

Hrm. Now that I think about it, the Refilling Charm would indeed be pretty useful, drinking conjured booze would be a good idea so the alcohol leaves your body quicker.

 

[Deleted member 5249]

You can increase food if you already have some, Hermione mentioned it. You can't make something from nothing though.

 

[Drawde]

Nothing was said about wizards being able to cure cancer. That was just used as an example of things wizards could possibly help the muggles with in a discussion on why the wizards were hiding from them.

Can't remember which thread though.

 

[Chuckg]

'Question of canon events'.

 

[railhazard]

What's with all the hate for the word "muggle"?

I'll make this simple, since, in all honesty, it kind of is.

Muggle as a word is not an insult. The way wizards use it is. Ergo, it is insulting, and kind of racist. That's the driving motivation behind pretty much every term used to refer to other groups of people by race or appearance. African-Americans used to be called 'coloreds,' but that got turned into an insult, so it became inappropriate. The same thing goes for negro (which is where the word nigger comes from). We don't use those words anymore because, while initially just words used to refer to African-Americans as a group, they became slurs because of how they were used, and thus became inappropriate as we ourselves became more tolerant.

It's not the word that is bad. It's how it's used. Using a word as a slur will turn it into one, and once you take that step, you can't really ever go back. The wizards have only themselves to blame for Muggle becoming a racist slur against every nonmagical person, because they are the ones who used it like that.

And no, it's not necessarily something inherent to the idea that there is an 'us' and a 'them.' Mages in World of Darkness refer to the people who are unaware of magic as "Sleepers," because they are not 'awake' to the truth of magic existing. Hence why the mage supplement is called Mage: The Awakening. Sleeper isn't a derogatory term. It's just a term, because no one ever uses 'sleeper' as an insult.

It's the wizards of Harry Potter that made Muggle a racist slur. It didn't have to be. But because of their actions and behavior, it became that.

Beyond this issue, one has to wonder why the wizard are hiding from the muggle considering that mundanes are nearly defenseless against magic.

We got an answer to this in the very first book. Hagrid flat-out stated that "if they knew about us, the muggles wouldn't leave us alone, and would always be asking for magic solutions to all their problems. So we just keep to ourselves."

The wizards aren't hiding because they're afraid (though they probably should be, considering what the majority of the world would do to to them if they found out about all this bullshit). They're hiding because they can't be assed to try and cure cancer or clothe the poor or feed the hungry with magic, because they're so busy. . . doing. . . things? Apparently?

Really, just because they can't be assed. That's why.

i remember Hagrid's answer.

Found it rather annoying.

It implies that muggles and their matters are not wizard's concerns.

How arrogant! How selfish!

Arrogant because they actualy thought muggle need or would seek them to solve their problems. It may have been right during harsher less confortable times, but right now, at least in the developped countries, there is not that much troubles that would need magical mean to be solved.

Selfish because if you take a look how they flaunt their magic and the sheer amount how useless magical junk such as talking mirror, Neville's Rememberall, moving stairway, wizarding chess, etc...that serve no purpose beyond the fact of BEEING MAGIC, how is it an hassle to cast a spell to help.

Essentialy, Hagrid one of the friendliest and kindest individual in the book is telling that magicless people are not worthy.

 

[ilalthal]

i remember Hagrid's answer.

Found it rather annoying.

It implies that muggles and their matters are not wizard's concerns.

How arrogant! How selfish!

Arrogant because they actualy thought muggle need or would seek them to solve their problems. It may have been right during harsher less confortable times, but right now, at least in the developped countries, there is not that much troubles that would need magical mean to be solved.

Selfish because if you take a look how they flaunt their magic and the sheer amount how useless magical junk such as talking mirror, Neville's Rememberall, moving stairway, wizarding chess, etc...that serve no purpose beyond the fact of BEEING MAGIC, how is it an hassle to cast a spell to help.

Essentialy, Hagrid one of the friendliest and kindest individual in the book is telling that magicless people are not worthy.

first off it isnt arogant untill about the last 50 years or so, the previous centurys they out did everything the magicless had now its only mostly everything.

second supply and demand, there is a massive demand for the things magic could do and a minusicule supply. at best hogwarts might have 5 mabey 10 thousand students if you round up and assume that theres a hell of a lot going on in the background, considering the age most wizards can live to saying theres something like a 8 or 10 to 1 proportion of adults to childern dosnt seem too unreasonable to me (leaving out voldimort and grindalwald killing a bunch). If that isnt too far off then there may be around mabey a hundred and fifty thousand wizards/witches and thats being pretty generous. they can produce that level of luxery for themselves, the well off ones anyway. the muggles number a bit over 60 million.

even if they got togather in big super magic factorys, every single man woman and magical child working togather and working untill they were on the brink of death like slaves spending every waking moment doing it at best they might be able to supply half that.

why should they do that any more than you? why put up with constant harasment oppression and aggression to do it? why risk torture and death at the hands of fanatics when they can with relative ease avoid all that?

 

[SEG-CISR]

i remember Hagrid's answer.

Found it rather annoying.

It implies that muggles and their matters are not wizard's concerns.

How arrogant! How selfish!

Arrogant because they actualy thought muggle need or would seek them to solve their problems. It may have been right during harsher less confortable times, but right now, at least in the developped countries, there is not that much troubles that would need magical mean to be solved.

Selfish because if you take a look how they flaunt their magic and the sheer amount how useless magical junk such as talking mirror, Neville's Rememberall, moving stairway, wizarding chess, etc...that serve no purpose beyond the fact of BEEING MAGIC, how is it an hassle to cast a spell to help.

Essentialy, Hagrid one of the friendliest and kindest individual in the book is telling that magicless people are not worthy.

first off it isnt arogant untill about the last 50 years or so, the previous centurys they out did everything the magicless had now its only mostly everything.

second supply and demand, there is a massive demand for the things magic could do and a minusicule supply. at best hogwarts might have 5 mabey 10 thousand students if you round up and assume that theres a hell of a lot going on in the background, considering the age most wizards can live to saying theres something like a 8 or 10 to 1 proportion of adults to childern dosnt seem too unreasonable to me (leaving out voldimort and grindalwald killing a bunch). If that isnt too far off then there may be around mabey a hundred and fifty thousand wizards/witches and thats being pretty generous. they can produce that level of luxery for themselves, the well off ones anyway. the muggles number a bit over 60 million.

even if they got togather in big super magic factorys, every single man woman and magical child working togather and working untill they were on the brink of death like slaves spending every waking moment doing it at best they might be able to supply half that.

why should they do that any more than you? why put up with constant harasment oppression and aggression to do it? why risk torture and death at the hands of fanatics when they can with relative ease avoid all that?

Not being assed to doing things to help people who aren't them is not necessarily arrogant, but it sure as fuck is selfish and self-centered. Either way, the discovery of magic wouldn't lead to society becoming a slaving dystopia who hungers for magic. Supply and demand when you're talking about services doesn't end with wizard sweatshops, that's retarded.

There were wars between muggles and wizards in the medieval era, and there might be should the wizards show themselves again, but in the end you're leaping like a flea on crack to idiotic furry conclusions. Because you know, the governments know of magic, and society as a whole is generally pretty, civilized in matters of genocide/slavery.

Also, Hogwarts isn't a sprawling university campus, there are not even a thousand students there. Magical society is tiny as shit, so the supply issue would only make them all hilariously rich(er?) for their services to muggles if they showed themselves. English wizards aren't the only ones there are, so I'd reckon it wouldn't even lead to conflict between the UK and other countries for this newfound caste of fucking magicians.

However, their reasoning for staying hidden sure makes sense to them, somehow I guess. There's no point arguing logic about decisions that their entire society sticks to, when they're entirely illogical as an extension of using goddamn magic.

 

[MTing]

Out of Curiosity, what are some canon confirmed things that I or You as a "Muggle" might want from a magic person? This is on a personal level.

What are some canon confirmed abilities that a government or a military might want magic for? This is on a political, geographical level.

What are some canon confirmed magics that the world might benefit from? This is on a global level.

My hypothesis is that on a personal level, there isn't much you would want from a wizard. (Seeing how most magical items need some sort of magical "gene" to use)

On a political level, having a wizard army is kinda cool, but it would just create another Cold War. Even then, going too far means unleashing nukes and Wizards don't seem like the type to have a shield for radiation, seeing as how the most knowledgeable wizard on Muggles, Arthur Weasley, don't really know much about them.

On a Global Level, it's shocking but the World will keep on spinning. Life goes on.

 

[Chuckg]

What are some canon confirmed abilities that a government or a military might want magic for? This is on a political, geographical level.

Veritaserum? Just three drops, and it makes a guy have to truthfully answer any question you ask him? And the only possible ways to resist it all require the guy to have specialized magic training, which no muggle terrorist could possibly have? (And even those people with specialized magic training would still need to not be tied to a chair, minus their wand, and otherwise undergoing what is euphemistically termed "high-stress questioning".)

The CIA would pay you a million+ bucks for one tiny bottle of that shit and consider it peanuts. They would then send that bottle to Gitmo, three drops each for all the high-value-assholes we have locked up who haven't spilled their guts yet, and the War on Terror makes like two years' worth of progress in a single month.

And then you tell the CIA about the existence of portkeys, which allows you to teleport X # of people and X boxes of cargo past any border checkpoint in the world, and shazam, half of the entire budget that used to belong to Air America is now going to your bank account, because planes show up on radar and portkeys don't. Imagine how espionage changes if you don't have to get your guy past border checks. Or if you can now smuggle as much equipment as fits inside a shipping crate (let alone a magically expanded shipping crate) instead of just using the diplomatic bag.

And then you told them about reusable portkeys and wow, I think the Deputy Director over there had an orgasm in his pants.

Add: Of course, then they figured out what happens if someone attaches a portkey to a 10-megaton warhead and express-mails it to the White House lawn, and had a heart attack, but hey, now you can sell them anti-portkey wards!