Harry Potter What's with all the hate for the word "muggle"

[Lord Raine]

Out of Curiosity, what are some canon confirmed things that I or You as a "Muggle" might want from a magic person? This is on a personal level.

Confirmed? None. The only explanation we get is Hagrid saying that 'we' would "obviously" want magical solutions to all our problems.

Now, I love Hagrid to death, I really do, but I kind of see this as a big part of the problem intrinsic to wizardkind. They view themselves, and what they do, as so superior to everything else that they can't understand why someone might not want to use magic to solve a problem. I, on the other hand, can think of plenty of reasons why technology might be a better solution problems than magic.

What are some canon confirmed abilities that a government or a military might want magic for? This is on a political, geographical level.

The CIA and the FBI would want Veriterisum. There's no such thing as a 'real' truth serum, so the idea of having one would make them squee. I doubt it could ever be admitted in IRL courts, though, as it's use on an unwilling subject would probably be considered a violation of their personal rights to privacy. The intelligence agencies of the world would soil their pants over it, though. Same for Polyjuice. Perfect spy, perfect disguise.

Magic on the whole, though, isn't really that awesome a thing for a military, if only because it takes decades of practice to get really badass at combat magic. It's way easier to train a soldier to be deadly with a gun than it is to train one to be deadly with a wand. If wizards did exist, they would likely comprise elite commando units that are explicitly magical, or possibly provide magical muscle to larger numbers of mundane soldiers, lending a wand to support the guns.

And the only possible ways to resist it all require the guy to have specialized magic training

Not true. It's stated in canon that anyone can resist Veriterisum if they see it coming and have time to prepare themselves to fight it. It's only truly effective if it's administered to them as a surprise or secretly without their knowledge. That's why it's not used constantly in criminal trials in the wizarding world. Things would be a whole lot more straightforward if they could just give everybody a dose of it whether they agreed or not, and let the story spill in front of the judges. That's actually specifically the reason why Rowling added that little bit in. Because, in her words, it would make solving criminal trials 'too easy.' If it worked that way, they could have just forced every suspected Death Eater to drink Veriteriserum and then asked "did you of your own free will and without enchantment or coercion submit to follow and be marked by the Dark Lord Voldemort." Yes answers go to jail, no answers go free. They could have made an assembly line out of it, and bastards like Malfoy would have never walked.

It's also why all the Azakban!Harry fics that have Harry be 'immune' to Veriterisum and thus they don't give it to him even though he requests it are freaking retarded. In canon!HP, Harry's request would be denied by default, because anybody who is requesting Veriteriserum would, by definition, be forewarned to fight it if necessary, and thus be perfectly capable of lying under it. Ergo, they couldn't do it to him. He would see it coming, because he freaking asked for it.

What are some canon confirmed magics that the world might benefit from? This is on a global level.

Food can't be made from scratch, but it can be multiplied out indefinitely from food that already exists, and be completely valid. So that's infinite free food for everyone who needs it. There are multiple spells (Aqua Eructo, Aguamenti) that conjure pure, clear water from nothing, so that's infinite free, clean, pollution-free water for everyone as well, which solves all the water shortage problems undeveloped countries are having, and also means, strictly speaking, you'll never have to pay for water ever again, or if you do, the price of your bills will be incredibly deflated.

So right off the bat, before we're even into what diseases it might or might not be able to cure, or any of that mess, we've made the world undeniably a better, cleaner, healthier place that is firmly one step towards a utopia. No one will ever have to starve ever again, and no one will ever die of a waterborne disease in a third world country, either. Infinite food and infinite clean water are things now. Just stop and think about how man fucking problems that solves. Just that alone.

The wizards as a whole really are bastards. I'm serious. Can't be bothered my ass. Fuck you, wizards. Fuck. You.

 

[Chuckg]

Not true. It's stated in canon that anyone can resist Veriterisum if they see it coming and have time to prepare themselves to fight it.

Actually, Rowling's statement was thus:

Veritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. Barty Crouch had been attacked before the potion was given to him and was still very groggy, otherwise he could have employed a range of measures against the Potion - he might have sealed his own throat and faked a declaration of innocence, transformed the Potion into something else before it touched his lips, or employed Occlumency against its effects. In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial.

Note that all of the methods listed require you to be a wizard, and a pretty damn good wizard at that. Since any prisoner would not have his wand, and since you'd have to be able to do it without your interrogator hearing you do it (because otherwise they'd just go 'session voided; we'll try again with Mr. Clever Dick later, with more precautions'), then you'd have to be able to somehow transfigure potion before it touches your lips, or seal your own mouth, using wandless silent magic.

While tied to a chair.

I think I'm pretty safe in saying that this would require some kind of specialized training, or else, like, Voldemort-level general competence. It ain't just 'anyone'.

And Occlumency is, of course, a type of specialized magic training itself.

And, of course, muggles can't do any of this. So for interrogating muggles, veritaserum away. Rowling's statement specifies 'wizards'.

Of course, what I find most hilarious about Rowling's statement is that in the very same paragraph where she claims that Veritaserum can be resisted, she also tells you how to get around that problem; specifically, make sure that the prisoner was already stunned or dope slapped, like Barty Jr., was, before you feed him the dose. Then un-stun him and start questioning. Because Barty Jr. was like the best deep-cover spy we've ever seen the Death Eaters have, and if all it takes to keep someone as tough, well-trained, and fanatical as him from beating the rap is simply to punch him a few times before feeding him the drops, then hey, interrogators have fists.

So maybe that still causes problems in trials, but for the CIA? *g*

Oh, and as to the rest of your post -- agreed. Even if I don't go with unlimited food (it does require a speculative interpretation of Gamp's Third Law, after all), unlimited water is firmly canonical. And, um, if you have unlimited pure water anywhere on demand, then food shortage stops being a problem even without transfiguring/expanding food -- because one of the main limits on agriculture in undeveloped areas is the lack of cost-effective irrigation. You give me the ability to Create Water on demand and I could turn the Sahara Desert into Iowa cornfields.

Add: And damn, I can't believe we both forgot this for so long. You made a point of it in another thread, even! What was the name of that magically created fire (not Fiendfyre, the other one) that burned forever without fuel?

Hey, cast me one of those, biggie-sized, underneath this steam boiler!

Shazam. Infinite free electricity. All I need are enough of these magical fuel-less fires substituting for where I used to burn coal, and the boiler she makes steam, and the turbine wheels go round and round...

 

[Lord Raine]

I think I'm pretty safe in saying that this would require some kind of specialized training, or else, like, Voldemort-level general competence. It ain't just 'anyone'.

Which is exactly why they use it on everyone who is being accused of criminal charges. Because you need to be Dumbledore or Voldemort to fight it.

I'm sorry, I've gone and forgotten, can you show me the page where Dumbledore just tells Fudge to stop being an ass and give Harry some drops during his trial that would have put him in Azkaban?

 

[Chuckg]

I'm sorry, I've gone and forgotten, can you show me the page where Dumbledore just tells Fudge to stop being an ass and give Harry some drops during his trial that would have put him in Azkaban?

LR, if we had a nickel for every time in the books that somebody had an option open and didn't use it, we'd both be richer than Rowling. We could start with Dumbledore not just putting an Age Line in front of the door outside Fluffy's room in book 1... or even earlier than that, mebbe.

Although note that the Ministry totally does feel like using Veritaserum when they think its politically convenient for the Ministry, given how Umbridge tried to dose Harry later in the same book. So, really, its the Ministry, its totally two-faced, this is news?

No, Dumbledore didn't do that. But hey, in book 7 Hermione didn't say "We're out of food? Let's find some obscure village and make a few cash purchases in its grocery store", but that doesn't prove that grocery stores don't exist in Earth-Rowling. It just proves that at least once, somebody was a dumbass and didn't think of using something available... and, well that happens in these books. And in other books. In a lot of books, really.

Anyway, back on-topic...

Shrinking spells. When shooting crap into space, you pay a crapload of money to lift a pound. All those paying customers would love the ability to only have to buy 1% of that lift capacity, because their huge-ass satellite fits on a tiny rocket and only re-expands to normal size after in its orbit and jettisoned free of the bus vehicle.

 

[Lord Raine]

Ms. Figg was a gamble. Dumbledore wouldn't have gambled if he could have just said "give the boy Veriteriserum and ask the question again. That'll solve this in ten seconds, and we can all go."

The events in canon don't play out to your suppositions and theories. That indicates that your theories and suppositions are wrong, not that the characters are stupid. You're the one who has to conform for canon, not the other way around. Canon doesn't support your ideas on Veriterserum and how powerful and/or skilled you have to be to resist it.

 

[Chuckg]

Ms. Figg was a gamble. Dumbledore wouldn't have gambled [snip]

*LOL*

Dumbledore gambled on the final confrontation between Harry Potter and Voldemort. He flat-out says so in DH. He wasn't at all sure if the whole blood protections/Master of Death thing would let Harry survive eating that AK; that was his plan anyway, because, "I guessed. But my guesses have usually been good."

That's an exact quote of Dumbledore from book 7, note.

So, you basing an argument on 'Dumbledore wouldn't gamble' is massively OOC for Dumbledore; we're talking about a guy who'd cheerfully roll the dice and hope for the best even on long shots. That's his canon portrayal.

Plus, everything I already said about 'in these books, characters sometimes just don't think of shit, even obvious shit'.

Canon doesn't support your ideas on Veriterserum and how powerful and/or skilled you have to be to resist it.

Which is a hilarious thing for you to say when Rowling outlines, in exact detail, the sort of shit you have to be able to do to resist Veritaserum, and it is all difficult stuff to pull off. Transfiguring something being shoved in my mouth before it touches my tongue, when I don't have a wand and can't talk, damn sure ain't for beginners. Occlumency likewise. And sealing off my own mouth? Man, how do you even do something like that if you're not a metamorphmagus?

I want to emphasize the above -- I am denying absolutely nothing that Rowling said. In fact, my arguments are based on taking the statement she gave about Veritaserum absolutely literally and word for word... and then seeing where that leads us. And where does it lead? It leads to 'Faking your way through a veritaserum exam might be possible, but Lord, it don't look easy'.

Our disagreement is not because I'm ignoring what Rowling said; its because you're not looking at exactly what she said. Her statement was neither as sweeping or as all-inclusive as you'd like to believe.

And dude, don't blame me if she wrote herself into a corner and then didn't have much success trying to talk her way out of it; it's her fault if her plots have holes. If you expect perfectly consistent everything from Rowling, you're setting yourself up for disappointment; damn few authors can manage that kind of setting tightness, and she ain't one of them.

Plus, this whole thing is off-topic anyway. What I said in this thread is that veritaserum's canon limitations wouldn't be any worry for the CIA; they're interrogating muggles, and Rowling explicitly states that only "some wizards" can resist Veritaserum. Emphasis, "wizards".

 

[Vorpal]

And dude, don't blame me if she wrote herself into a corner and then didn't have much success trying to talk her way out of it; it's her fault if her plots have holes. If you expect perfectly consistent everything from Rowling, you're setting yourself up for disappointment; damn few authors can manage that kind of setting tightness, and she ain't one of them.

Wait a second. If you're explicitly admitting that Rowling is inconsistent, why in the world do you think taking anything she says literally is a good idea? No, seriously. It's basically a question of whether SoD requirement of canon material to make internal sense is trumped by taking Word of God literally. And I can see some arguments for that, but the more God is inconsistent, the less powerful the Word is.

 

[Chuckg]

Wait a second. If you're explicitly admitting that Rowling is inconsistent, why in the world do you think taking anything she says literally is a good idea?

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Re: the veritaserum issue, Rowling fucked up left field so bad that nobody could play it. Her statement contradicts itself inside one paragraph; I mean, she literally says 'They don't use veritaserum because they can't stop some wizards from beating it' at the exact same time she outlines the exact method by which -- and it was the method actually used in book 4, even, not a hypothetical method -- you keep a wizard from beating it. It's like saying 'Nobody should use this antivirus program because it fails to detect this common category of malware' while at the same time saying 'But they totally fixed that issue in the v1.1 update patch'. Well, wait, if the patch fixes the problem, then doesn't that mean you can use it again?

Add: Seriously. We know, from canon, that administering veritaserum simply requires you to get three drops of the stuff in contact with the soft tissues inside the guy's mouth. He doesn't even need to swallow it, you just dribble a few drops on his tongue. But if he's not needed to swallow it, then he doesn't have to be conscious. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from tying a guy to a chair, feeding him enough Stupefies to drop Hagrid, and then dosing him up... and then Enervating him only after the dose is in his system. And all of the methods of beating veritaserum? Are kinda hard to do while unconscious! Rowling even concedes this would work, in the part where she says Barty "was still very groggy". KTFO'ed is even more groggy than groggy.

Really, Rowling would have done much better to simply say 'The reason nobody gave Sirius veritaserum is because the Ministry only does what's politically convenient for the Ministry, which means that if they think veritaserum would wreck their case they make excuses to not use it, but if they think veritaserum would help their case then they'll tie you to a chair and ram that shit between your teeth with a turkey baster'. Because all that requires us to believe is that the Ministry of Magic's justice system is a place where the guilty can walk free and the innocent can get railroaded anytime the Minister of Magic feels like being a douchebag, and well, that's canon. The Ministry justice system being incredibly douchey in places, that is.

tldr; Rowling's body of work has plot holes, film at 11.

 

[Chuckg]

And speaking of augmented interrogation techniques and the question asked earlier (what canonical Wizarding things would the muggle world have use for)... Dementors.

"Dementors?!?" you might say. "Are you mad?"

Well, yes. Dementors. Because while its a retarded method for guarding a prison, as an instrument of psychological torture I really can't think of much better. And unlike the Cruciatus, the Ministry of Magic thinks its totally legal to subject prisoners to Dementors!

Man, forget waterboarding and sleep deprivation and smashing the finger joints with a sledgehammer. If you want to break someone's psyche into tiny little pieces, just put a Dementor in the next cell and wait. How long does the average Azkaban inmate last before cracking? Unless you hit an animagus like Sirius, you're home free.

"But wait!" you might ask. "If you have veritaserum, what do you need torture for?"

Well, I wasn't talking about torturing people for information, you see. I was thinking more of psychologically breaking political prisoners and suchlike so as to turn them into your own informants and then releasing them back into their various rebel alliances to do whatever you tell them to as long as you won't send them back in to spend another week with the dementor again. You know, like your average totalitarian dictator would love to do in his wet dreams.

... hey, man, I didn't say it would be nice governments wanting to buy this one.

And yes, you could use the Imperius curse for that as well, but I'm avoiding the Unforgivables because that keeps the ICW off my ass. Besides, Dementors don't have to be paid; wizards do.

 

[Lord Raine]

Wow, we went four months in the Harry Potter section before somebody willfully misinterpreted Dumbledore and pretended that their totally fabricated ideas superseded Rowlings own stated canon.

That's got to be a new record.

 

[Chuckg]

Edit: Actually, fuck it, this ain't the thread for it. We've said it all before elsewhere anyway.

 

[pidl]

Do we actually have any idea how hard/expensive/time-consuming it is to make Veritaserum?

Perhaps it is so difficult and expensive to make that they only use it on really important cases, or when they don't have any evidence?

 

[Chuckg]

Anyway, back to the question asked...

Lightening charms. If you can take a suit of superheavy body armor and reduce the weight to something that a guy can move comfortably in, congrats, the US Army will gladly pay you like $50,000 a suit. Because the only thing that keeps them from slabbing on enough kevlar and titanium plates to stop a .50 cal right now is the fact that if you put that much weight on a guy, he can't move. Remove the weight and keep the plates? Whoa yeah, they'd love it.

 

[pidl]

Anyway, back to the question asked...

Lightening charms. If you can take a suit of superheavy body armor and reduce the weight to something that a guy can move comfortably in, congrats, the US Army will gladly pay you like $50,000 a suit. Because the only thing that keeps them from slabbing on enough kevlar and titanium plates to stop a .50 cal right now is the fact that if you put that much weight on a guy, he can't move. Remove the weight and keep the plates? Whoa yeah, they'd love it.

Doesn't the volume also hinder manouvreability?

 

[Ryuugi]

Magic on the whole, though, isn't really that awesome a thing for a military, if only because it takes decades of practice to get really badass at combat magic. It's way easier to train a soldier to be deadly with a gun than it is to train one to be deadly with a wand. If wizards did exist, they would likely comprise elite commando units that are explicitly magical, or possibly provide magical muscle to larger numbers of mundane soldiers, lending a wand to support the guns.

Mmmm, gonna have to disagree with you there Raine. While, yes, any military that wants to make the wizards fight guys with guns is dumb (whether or not shields can stop bullets), that does not change the fact that Wizards would be absurdly dangerous and valuable to the military.

Besides the obvious 'Unbreakable/Impenetrable Charms on your vests' and the 'Duplicate weapons and ammo easily.' There's a bunch of much, much more dangerous stuff wizards could do. Lightening charms and enlarging charms, for one. Messages that can't be intercepted.

But that's just small stuff. You want military aid? Take it to the highest level.

Weapons of Mass Destruction. I'm serious. Transfiguration is the most dangerous branch of HP magic when it comes to wizards vs. humans.

Poison enemy food supplies with Clostridium botulinum. Its odorless and tasteless which means they wouldnÆt know theyÆve consumed the LD-50 of 0.4 billionth of a gram per kg of body weight till the paralysis has already set in--and that's such a small amount that wizards would transfigure it easily.

Or, you could use ricin. No known cure, and while the symptoms are slow to develop, they can be gruesome as hell. The poison causes your arteries to plug up which leads to eventual death within a week. Ad hey, if ricin is inhaled or injected, the amount needed to kill you would fit neatly on the head of a pin. Again, easy to transfigure.

Or here's a cool trick. Transfigure air to sarin gas or XV and kill a large mass of people in, oh, around 60 seconds.

But that's just chump change.

Have them transfigure polonium. Polonium has an LD-50 of 50 billionths per kg of body weight. This means that 1 gram vaporized into the air could theoretically kill up to 1.5 million people due to its intense alpha particle radioactivity.

All of this is stuff that it would be effortless to transfigure. Or better, conjure, because then it'll vanish and no one will know what killed everyone.

Transfigure or duplicate Uranium. Transfigure Diseases. Make ships fly and planes ignore the laws of aerodynamics. Etc.

That's cheap Chemical, Biological, and Nuclear weaponry. Duplication makes everything else cheap, too. And the effectiveness of everything is further increased by magic.

So yeah, the military would suck a wizard's dick.

 

[WhiteKnightLeo]

Anyway, back to the question asked...

Lightening charms. If you can take a suit of superheavy body armor and reduce the weight to something that a guy can move comfortably in, congrats, the US Army will gladly pay you like $50,000 a suit. Because the only thing that keeps them from slabbing on enough kevlar and titanium plates to stop a .50 cal right now is the fact that if you put that much weight on a guy, he can't move. Remove the weight and keep the plates? Whoa yeah, they'd love it.

I'm not sure that anyone could make ANY suit of armor that could stop a .50 AP round, even with no weight limit. But then, if you could, what's step two?

A charm that increases the mass of the .50 round just before impact (say, by 50 times). Roughly increase the impact pressure by 50 times, right? Or maybe an additional charm that shrinks the bullet on impact, maximizing the penetration by reducing the cross-sectional area of the bullet, and then expands again when it hits soft tissue?

 

[Chuckg]

Cost, dude, cost. You only need one enchantment for a suit of armor. You'd need a separate charm on each and every single bullet.

Which one is easier to afford? It's not like our guys wear body armor while going house-to-house because they have a pathological fear of snipers. The 'insurgents' are more into spray and pray. Do you know how many average thousand bullets are expended per enemy killed on average... by us, let alone them?

BTW, your idea doesn't work for another reason -- square-cube law. If you a shrink a bullet down by half, the cross-section of the tip is reduced to 1/4th... but the mass is reduced to 1/8th. IOW, you took a net 50% loss on momentum vs. surface area.

There's a reason that tank sabots are made out of depleted uranium.

Add: As far as the mass increasing charm idea, that might work, except that there isn't a 'density goes up, size remains the same' charm in canon. (Engorgio is in canon, but something suddenly becoming 50x larger in flight will totally fuck up its ballistics, especially since Engorgio tends to expand things not perfectly evenly. Not to mention, exactly how do you get the charm to operate with millisecond timing? The space capsule example I gave above still works if you just tell the charm to expire 24 hours later, give or take a few hours -- yours has to happen at the exactly right point of a bullet's trajectory in flight, and that's like digital timing.)

 

[Drawde]

A question on Hagrid's comment on why wizards hide from muggles.

Was his comment speculation or fact? In other words was this just the standard reason that the wizards themselves were given, or did it actually happen in the past?

 

[Chuckg]

Doesn't the volume also hinder manouvreability?

But if weight (add: and inertia) ceases to be relevant then you can make it out of the highest-density shit you have, stuff that would normally be totally insane to put on a man because he couldn't possibly move under all that metal. You could make platemail suits out of tank armor if you wanted. (And youtube search for just how mobile a man can be in a well-made suit of plate mail.)

 

[Garahs]

I think you're thinking too small. Enchant a simple uniform so that any ballistics that contacts it is reversed and sent back at where it originated.

Drawde, I never heard it being countered, so you can assume it's fact.

 

[Master of Squirrel-Fu]

I think you're thinking too small. Enchant a simple uniform so that any ballistics that contacts it is reversed and sent back at where it originated.

You can get around that with some good old napalm and thermite.

 

[Chuckg]

Remember, MT asked for "canon confirmed things" that a muggle might want a wizard to do, so stick only to stuff we've actually seen in the books please. I don't think we've seen a boomerang enchantment like that.

Anyway, hrm, I've done a whole lot of killing people, let's try to think of some non-military applications...

The Patented Daydream Charm, copyright Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes! An item that gives you a 30-minute full-sensory hallucination scripted by the creator? Try to imagine what the porn industry would do with that. Or how much people would pay for it. Shit, you could replace real prostitution with magical VR prostitution -- legal and disease-free!

Hell, even the Twins in canon wouldn't sell one to any wizard under age 16. Hmmmmmmmmm...

 

[WhiteKnightLeo]

Cost, dude, cost. You only need one enchantment for a suit of armor. You'd need a separate charm on each and every single bullet.

Which one is easier to afford? It's not like our guys wear body armor while going house-to-house because they have a pathological fear of snipers. The 'insurgents' are more into spray and pray. Do you know how many average thousand bullets are expended per enemy killed on average... by us, let alone them?

BTW, your idea doesn't work for another reason -- square-cube law. If you a shrink a bullet down by half, the cross-section of the tip is reduced to 1/4th... but the mass is reduced to 1/8th. IOW, you took a net 50% loss on momentum vs. surface area.

There's a reason that tank sabots are made out of depleted uranium.

Add: As far as the mass increasing charm idea, that might work, except that there isn't a 'density goes up, size remains the same' charm in canon. (Engorgio is in canon, but something suddenly becoming 50x larger in flight will totally fuck up its ballistics, especially since Engorgio tends to expand things not perfectly evenly. Not to mention, exactly how do you get the charm to operate with millisecond timing? The space capsule example I gave above still works if you just tell the charm to expire 24 hours later, give or take a few hours -- yours has to happen at the exactly right point of a bullet's trajectory in flight, and that's like digital timing.)

Cost is a good point, if you are talking rapid fire. It would probably be cost-effective for a Barret M82.

As for the mass, is it actually confirmed that you can't shrink an object without reducing its mass? I mean, maybe that's what the standard Shrinking Charm does, but maybe it can be done differently.

I'll admit, the timing issue was something I thought of, but it was just an idle thought.

 

[Chuckg]

As per the original questioner, I am sticking only to things that we actually see done in the books. So hypothetical variant charms remain hypothetically undiscussed.

Hmmm. More commercial applications...

Kneazles can detect 'suspicious or unsavory' characters. I wonder how popular they'd be for job interviews in sensitive positions. Every bank would buy one.

And oh, the simple Vanishing Charm! Make something go away and never come back, without residue? Man, the guys who have to dispose of nuclear waste and biohazard materials would love to talk to you.

 

[Master of Squirrel-Fu]

As per the original questioner, I am sticking only to things that we actually see done in the books. So hypothetical variant charms remain hypothetically undiscussed.

Hmmm. More commercial applications...

Kneazles can detect 'suspicious or unsavory' characters. I wonder how popular they'd be for job interviews in sensitive positions. Every bank would buy one.

And oh, the simple Vanishing Charm! Make something go away and never come back, without residue? Man, the guys who have to dispose of nuclear waste and biohazard materials would love to talk to you.

Discussed in LRs MST of PKH.