Nasuverse A Certain Magical Blade Works?
- Thread starter Dark Schneider
- Start date
Wait, so.
Shirou could completely destroy Touma, but can't really hurt Accelerator at all?
Well, okay, if Accelerators powers worked the way they're SAID to work, which they blatantly don't, Shirou would be able to hurt Accelerator, but they don't, so he can't.
Also, please recall, this Shirou is four Shirou's (108 / 27 = 4), at least one of them should have gotten a good look at Gil's Armory, so he would have Gungnir, which heart stabs better then Gae Bolg.
Actually, wasn't Shirou there when Gil used Gungnir to kill Berserker during the 'ripping out Illya's heart' scene?
One of the Shirou's anyway.
Shirou could completely destroy Touma, but can't really hurt Accelerator at all?
Well, okay, if Accelerators powers worked the way they're SAID to work, which they blatantly don't, Shirou would be able to hurt Accelerator, but they don't, so he can't.
Also, please recall, this Shirou is four Shirou's (108 / 27 = 4), at least one of them should have gotten a good look at Gil's Armory, so he would have Gungnir, which heart stabs better then Gae Bolg.
Actually, wasn't Shirou there when Gil used Gungnir to kill Berserker during the 'ripping out Illya's heart' scene?
One of the Shirou's anyway.
If something in To Aru-verse can work to bypass Accelerator's defense in the way Dark Matter does... I think anything Shirou traces should do.
I mean, the traced stuff is literally from another world. That makes it considerably stranger then Dark Matter. Second, Noble Phantasms aren't just "awesome supernatural abilities or weapons", they have a sort of "metaphysical weight" due to their legend.
Also, from what read about Fragarach... it could kill Hecules once. Because it would work against God Hand--a defense.
So it's possible that for Fragarach, it would consider Accelerator's Vectors as his trump card, and counter them as a whole.
I think if Fragarach could kill Hercules once, it can kill Accelerator.
The question is if Shirou's seen Fragarach... does he have Shirou/Avenger's memories from Hollow Ataraxia? Did Shirouvenger see Bazett using Fragarach? Or was the Ur-Fragarach in the Gate of Babylon?
If he's seen it, then he can use it.
If he hasn't, though, there's probably something else he can use. And if there isn't, FATE!Shirou will take Archer's advice and imagine something that could do the job.
Let's hope Archer never came near Atlas and saw the Black Barrel or it's lesser replica.
On a hilarious note, let's hope Archer never saw Shiki's knife: if he could download it's history of use, and if that replication momentarily gave him MEoDP, hilarity would truly ensue. :sweat:
Though, does this Shirou even HAVE Archer's memories?
And am I correct in thinking that the way Lancer's Gae Bolg was stopped was with Rho Aias? If so... Rho Aias is described as a "conceptual weapon that is said to be an absolute defense against any thrown weapon". It can block Enuma Elish and storms of swords. I think it can block vectors. While it's described as each layer being as strong as a fortress wall, it's more important to note it works as a Conceptual Weapon: that is, it works against ranged attacks by "saying LOLNO, that shit don't work, try again!"
If this Shirou has Archer's memories, then he probably is very, very good at using Rho Aias. And if he doesn't, he is still UBW Shirou, who used the full sevenfold shield. Furthermore, he has MORE circuits and can use them more efficiently, potentially. Which means he could use Rho Aias more easily.
So, yeah, tl:dr version, Shirou has ways to attack or defend against Accelerator.
I mean, the traced stuff is literally from another world. That makes it considerably stranger then Dark Matter. Second, Noble Phantasms aren't just "awesome supernatural abilities or weapons", they have a sort of "metaphysical weight" due to their legend.
Also, from what read about Fragarach... it could kill Hecules once. Because it would work against God Hand--a defense.
So it's possible that for Fragarach, it would consider Accelerator's Vectors as his trump card, and counter them as a whole.
I think if Fragarach could kill Hercules once, it can kill Accelerator.
The question is if Shirou's seen Fragarach... does he have Shirou/Avenger's memories from Hollow Ataraxia? Did Shirouvenger see Bazett using Fragarach? Or was the Ur-Fragarach in the Gate of Babylon?
If he's seen it, then he can use it.
If he hasn't, though, there's probably something else he can use. And if there isn't, FATE!Shirou will take Archer's advice and imagine something that could do the job.
Let's hope Archer never came near Atlas and saw the Black Barrel or it's lesser replica.
On a hilarious note, let's hope Archer never saw Shiki's knife: if he could download it's history of use, and if that replication momentarily gave him MEoDP, hilarity would truly ensue. :sweat:
Though, does this Shirou even HAVE Archer's memories?
And am I correct in thinking that the way Lancer's Gae Bolg was stopped was with Rho Aias? If so... Rho Aias is described as a "conceptual weapon that is said to be an absolute defense against any thrown weapon". It can block Enuma Elish and storms of swords. I think it can block vectors. While it's described as each layer being as strong as a fortress wall, it's more important to note it works as a Conceptual Weapon: that is, it works against ranged attacks by "saying LOLNO, that shit don't work, try again!"
If this Shirou has Archer's memories, then he probably is very, very good at using Rho Aias. And if he doesn't, he is still UBW Shirou, who used the full sevenfold shield. Furthermore, he has MORE circuits and can use them more efficiently, potentially. Which means he could use Rho Aias more easily.
So, yeah, tl:dr version, Shirou has ways to attack or defend against Accelerator.
Wait, so.
Shirou could completely destroy Touma, but can't really hurt Accelerator at all?
Shirou could completely destroy Touma, but can't really hurt Accelerator at all?
Touma beat Accelerator by being able to actually, you know, touch Accelerator, which nobody else could do.
(Also, because Accel abandoned hs brain for that one fight and fought really stupidly when he could have easily crushed Touma, but that's Plot Armor for you.)
Well, okay, if Accelerators powers worked the way they're SAID to work, which they blatantly don't, Shirou would be able to hurt Accelerator, but they don't, so he can't.
Also, please recall, this Shirou is four Shirou's (108 / 27 = 4), at least one of them should have gotten a good look at Gil's Armory, so he would have Gungnir, which heart stabs better then Gae Bolg.
Actually, wasn't Shirou there when Gil used Gungnir to kill Berserker during the 'ripping out Illya's heart' scene?
One of the Shirou's anyway.
Actually, wasn't Shirou there when Gil used Gungnir to kill Berserker during the 'ripping out Illya's heart' scene?
One of the Shirou's anyway.
If Gae Bolg is B Rank and Gungnir is A Rank, then Acel's Vector control were to be given a rank it would be EX in all likelihood.
If Vector Control works then it'll stop both of them.
While I want to say that Ea would vortex the fuck out of Accelerator without any chance of a Vector-based saving throw, by virtue of it being a world-ending vortex that embodies the state of nothingness before creation . . .
Accelerator is the master of ridiculous asspulls in a story that's so full of ridiculous asspulls that it's essentially an anus that's been divided by zero.
Accelerator is the master of ridiculous asspulls in a story that's so full of ridiculous asspulls that it's essentially an anus that's been divided by zero.
If something in To Aru-verse can work to bypass Accelerator's defense in the way Dark Matter does... I think anything Shirou traces should do.
I mean, the traced stuff is literally from another world. That makes it considerably stranger then Dark Matter. Second, Noble Phantasms aren't just "awesome supernatural abilities or weapons", they have a sort of "metaphysical weight" due to their legend.
I mean, the traced stuff is literally from another world. That makes it considerably stranger then Dark Matter. Second, Noble Phantasms aren't just "awesome supernatural abilities or weapons", they have a sort of "metaphysical weight" due to their legend.
Shirou's stuuf may be from another world, but it's all made out of materials that come from Earth and make sense at least in a 'It's Magic, lol' way.
Also, from what read about Fragarach... it could kill Hecules once. Because it would work against God Hand--a defense.
The thing is, Vector Control works in a completely different way then God Hand.
So it's possible that for Fragarach, it would consider Accelerator's Vectors as his trump card, and counter them as a whole.
I think if Fragarach could kill Hercules once, it can kill Accelerator.
I think if Fragarach could kill Hercules once, it can kill Accelerator.
However, as proven with Godhand, going back doesn't negate things that are basically always on (since Berserker comes back). It wouldn't work on Vector Control.
The question is if Shirou's seen Fragarach... does he have Shirou/Avenger's memories from Hollow Ataraxia? Did Shirouvenger see Bazett using Fragarach? Or was the Ur-Fragarach in the Gate of Babylon?
If he's seen it, then he can use it.
If he's seen it, then he can use it.
If he hasn't, though, there's probably something else he can use. And if there isn't, FATE!Shirou will take Archer's advice and imagine something that could do the job.
Let's hope Archer never came near Atlas and saw the Black Barrel or it's lesser replica.
On a hilarious note, let's hope Archer never saw Shiki's knife: if he could download it's history of use, and if that replication momentarily gave him MEoDP, hilarity would truly ensue.?
Though, does this Shirou even HAVE Archer's memories?
And am I correct in thinking that the way Lancer's Gae Bolg was stopped was with Rho Aias? If so... Rho Aias is described as a "conceptual weapon that is said to be an absolute defense against any thrown weapon". It can block Enuma Elish and storms of swords. I think it can block vectors. While it's described as each layer being as strong as a fortress wall, it's more important to note it works as a Conceptual Weapon: that is, it works against ranged attacks by "saying LOLNO, that shit don't work, try again!"
Also, while the Concept that made it a NP was 'block any thrown weapon (not projectile)', it's power is still 'seven fortresses'. As proven by Lancer, strong enough weapon can pierce it.
More importantly, Gil was almost surely holdng back because in...Heaven's Feel, I think, it takes Rho Aias plus Rider's Pegasus to survive Excalibur and Ea > Excalibur.
(Oh, and I guess I should note that Vector Control is a lot more versatile then that; he doesn't even have to go through it.)
If this Shirou has Archer's memories, then he probably is very, very good at using Rho Aias. And if he doesn't, he is still UBW Shirou, who used the full sevenfold shield. Furthermore, he has MORE circuits and can use them more efficiently, potentially. Which means he could use Rho Aias more easily.
It wouldn't really matter, though, since Accelerator's powers include Multiple Exaton level explosions (i.e. the entire world's nuclear arsenal many, many times over and enough to destroy all life on earth). Granted, he would never use that attack to it's full power, cause he like the Earth how it is, but that's not the point; he can use any amount of power up to that point, at least (after all, he did that at half-power and wasn't tired afterwards; that's probably not his limit).
So, yeah, tl:dr version, Shirou has ways to attack or defend against Accelerator.
... So you're saying Noble Phantasms AREN'T "nonsensium"?
Even in the Type-Moon universe, Noble Phantasms are big freaking deals. Sometimes even on the level of being an Out of Context Problem for the people who have to deal with them.
Hmm... wasn't there some Anti-Magic lance used by the Lancer in the 4th Grail War? Shirou probably has it's prototype. If not, he probably has SOMEthing that can bypass defenses in one way or another.
Anyway, it'll be up to the author how UBW will interact with Vectors. Personally I think Shirou has some options against him (ones that aren't variations of "die horribly") but I don't think we'll be able to agree on that.
Even in the Type-Moon universe, Noble Phantasms are big freaking deals. Sometimes even on the level of being an Out of Context Problem for the people who have to deal with them.
Hmm... wasn't there some Anti-Magic lance used by the Lancer in the 4th Grail War? Shirou probably has it's prototype. If not, he probably has SOMEthing that can bypass defenses in one way or another.
Anyway, it'll be up to the author how UBW will interact with Vectors. Personally I think Shirou has some options against him (ones that aren't variations of "die horribly") but I don't think we'll be able to agree on that.
Well, yes, Gae Dearg does do what Imagine Breaker does, just a tad differently.
For one, Imagine Breaker nullifies enchantment's on object's completely, Gae Dearg only nullifies them while it's in contact with them, and Imagine Breaker, according to Ryuugi, only effect's things which effect the Right Hand itself, Gae Dearg neutralizes EVERYTHING, including Magical Defenses and shields and shit.
But then, Gae Dearg was a gift from the 4th Lancer's father, I don't think Gil would have a prototype of that.
For one, Imagine Breaker nullifies enchantment's on object's completely, Gae Dearg only nullifies them while it's in contact with them, and Imagine Breaker, according to Ryuugi, only effect's things which effect the Right Hand itself, Gae Dearg neutralizes EVERYTHING, including Magical Defenses and shields and shit.
But then, Gae Dearg was a gift from the 4th Lancer's father, I don't think Gil would have a prototype of that.
The anti-magic lance was <a href='http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Gae_Dearg' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Gae Dearg</a>. I was looking it up just now to mention it.
There's also Rule Breaker, of course. Yeah, it only has the combat efficiency of an ordinary dagger, but properly wielded, an ordinary dagger can seriously hurt or kill a normal person. And once you get past his vectors, that's what Accelerator is, isn't he?
Edit:
This Shirou has Archer's skills too, right? Couldn't he turn Rule Breaker into an arrow and use it at range, or do a Gilgamesh-esque swordrain of Rule Breakers? With the power boost he has now, Shirou could probably pull that off, and Accelerator probably wouldn't expect something like an arrow or a rain of daggers to be able to ignore his vector defense. At least, not until it was too late, anyway.
There's also Rule Breaker, of course. Yeah, it only has the combat efficiency of an ordinary dagger, but properly wielded, an ordinary dagger can seriously hurt or kill a normal person. And once you get past his vectors, that's what Accelerator is, isn't he?
Edit:
This Shirou has Archer's skills too, right? Couldn't he turn Rule Breaker into an arrow and use it at range, or do a Gilgamesh-esque swordrain of Rule Breakers? With the power boost he has now, Shirou could probably pull that off, and Accelerator probably wouldn't expect something like an arrow or a rain of daggers to be able to ignore his vector defense. At least, not until it was too late, anyway.
first: Gae Bolg's Reversal of causality is superior to Gungnir's.
1a: reversal of causality=the spear already hit you Vector control lol!Powers or not.
Second: Archer was without a mana/prana source for that fight, Gae Bolg in his explosion!mode Ripped 6 petals and exploded on the seventh which broke from the strain.
third: Rider's Bellerophon + Rho Aius partially deflected an severly weakened corrupted Excaliblast.
Fourth: NP are beyond mortal comprenhension and the traced & Broken versions are stated to be fuckingly unnatural, that's why the reality itself doesn't aknowledge their existance.
Fifth: a version of those Shirous coud have Gae Derg in his UBW.
sixth: Shiro traced the Kaleidostick who is a fucking tool of the second magic so Emiya Shiro and his kind of magecraft are unnatural to the toi Aru-verse
seventh: Wouldn't BB's
in the remote case of Shiro tracing/recreating his father's anti-magic bullets hit Accel or Touma what would happen?
if i'm wrong let me know.
1a: reversal of causality=the spear already hit you Vector control lol!Powers or not.
Second: Archer was without a mana/prana source for that fight, Gae Bolg in his explosion!mode Ripped 6 petals and exploded on the seventh which broke from the strain.
third: Rider's Bellerophon + Rho Aius partially deflected an severly weakened corrupted Excaliblast.
Fourth: NP are beyond mortal comprenhension and the traced & Broken versions are stated to be fuckingly unnatural, that's why the reality itself doesn't aknowledge their existance.
Fifth: a version of those Shirous coud have Gae Derg in his UBW.
sixth: Shiro traced the Kaleidostick who is a fucking tool of the second magic so Emiya Shiro and his kind of magecraft are unnatural to the toi Aru-verse
seventh: Wouldn't BB's
"Conceptual Weapon of natural life-span", capable of imposing the notion of limited life-span into the body of near-immortal creatures. Composed of Fifth True Theoretical Element, bullets fired from the gun will disintegrate all instances of Grain and Ether they come into contact with, ignoring any parameters of beings that intake either substance to deliver direct damage.
bypass the protections of Accel and make him vulnerable?
bypass the protections of Accel and make him vulnerable?
if i'm wrong let me know.
And how would Shirou trace a bullet in the first place. Has he seen it? Where would he be able to get a gun that would be able to shoot the bullet?
Also, can Shirou even use a Noble Phantasm that isn't a sword or Rho Aius efficiently? And what makes you guys think Accelerator would just stand there and do nothing while Shirou holds still and tries to trace Gae Bolg or whatever non-sword Noble Phantasm he's trying to get?
Also, can Shirou even use a Noble Phantasm that isn't a sword or Rho Aius efficiently? And what makes you guys think Accelerator would just stand there and do nothing while Shirou holds still and tries to trace Gae Bolg or whatever non-sword Noble Phantasm he's trying to get?
No, Gungnir's Reversal of Causality is better then Gae Bolg's, it's Rank A to Gae Bolg's B after all, it's just that Gae Bolg is considered better because it has more versatility, even if neither of it's abilities are as good as the Parent Spear's version.
And no, Shirou could never trace Black Barrel, hell, if he had the original he wouldn't even be able to touch it.
It's a conceptual weapon made out of a super anti magic material, a being with even a little magic in them can't even hold it.
That's why magical beings it hits explode, the Conceptual Weapon part of it makes them Mortal in the Human sense, then the Anti-Magic material the bullet is made of causes them to explode in a chain reaction with their Prana/Mana/whatever.
And no, Shirou could never trace Black Barrel, hell, if he had the original he wouldn't even be able to touch it.
It's a conceptual weapon made out of a super anti magic material, a being with even a little magic in them can't even hold it.
That's why magical beings it hits explode, the Conceptual Weapon part of it makes them Mortal in the Human sense, then the Anti-Magic material the bullet is made of causes them to explode in a chain reaction with their Prana/Mana/whatever.
in the remote case man, i was asking what would happen in that situation not saying it has to happen, and he has 3 other Shirous inside him there is a posibility that one of them either participed in the fourth war as a servant, Kiritsugu showed them to him, he saw them in action in the Kiritsugu vs Kirei.
He can use anything he traces like the original wielder and modify them like Caladbolg II, his traces in the UBW path were near instantaneous and his Rho Aius blocked fucking Ea, a rather weak Ea, but an Ea none the less. and has Avalon inside him.
also its called Unlimited Blade Works for a reason, he can perfectly store the blueprints and recreate almost perfectly every bladed weapon with almost no extra cost even if they are reduced one rank when nor on his marble or broken and non bladed armaments and armos at 3 times the cost of reproduction.
but why the hell are we even puting an Shiro Vs Accel? are they gonna clash in a figth, be enemies or what?
He can use anything he traces like the original wielder and modify them like Caladbolg II, his traces in the UBW path were near instantaneous and his Rho Aius blocked fucking Ea, a rather weak Ea, but an Ea none the less. and has Avalon inside him.
also its called Unlimited Blade Works for a reason, he can perfectly store the blueprints and recreate almost perfectly every bladed weapon with almost no extra cost even if they are reduced one rank when nor on his marble or broken and non bladed armaments and armos at 3 times the cost of reproduction.
but why the hell are we even puting an Shiro Vs Accel? are they gonna clash in a figth, be enemies or what?
... So you're saying Noble Phantasms AREN'T "nonsensium"?
But Accelerator has no problems dealing with Magic or Esper Abilities.
Dark Matter isn't like those things. It's nonsensium. Light that touches it stops acting like light. Air that touches it stops acting like air. The laws of physics change in strange ways and it's a 'natural' change; no magic involved. Even Dark Matter himself just makes the stuff; he doesn't put any further power into the changes it causes. It's, apparently, SCIENCE!
Like I said, Dark Matter's hard to explain. Bullshit logic isn't unusual for Toaru. But Dark Matter is bullshit logic even for such a bulshit logic series. Also, we only saw it a few times and it wasn't well explained.
Even in the Type-Moon universe, Noble Phantasms are big freaking deals. Sometimes even on the level of being an Out of Context Problem for the people who have to deal with them.
Hmm... wasn't there some Anti-Magic lance used by the Lancer in the 4th Grail War? Shirou probably has it's prototype. If not, he probably has SOMEthing that can bypass defenses in one way or another.
Hmm... wasn't there some Anti-Magic lance used by the Lancer in the 4th Grail War? Shirou probably has it's prototype. If not, he probably has SOMEthing that can bypass defenses in one way or another.
Well, yes, Gae Dearg does do what Imagine Breaker does, just a tad differently.
For one, Imagine Breaker nullifies enchantment's on object's completely, Gae Dearg only nullifies them while it's in contact with them, and Imagine Breaker, according to Ryuugi, only effect's things which effect the Right Hand itself, Gae Dearg neutralizes EVERYTHING, including Magical Defenses and shields and shit.
But then, Gae Dearg was a gift from the 4th Lancer's father, I don't think Gil would have a prototype of that.
For one, Imagine Breaker nullifies enchantment's on object's completely, Gae Dearg only nullifies them while it's in contact with them, and Imagine Breaker, according to Ryuugi, only effect's things which effect the Right Hand itself, Gae Dearg neutralizes EVERYTHING, including Magical Defenses and shields and shit.
But then, Gae Dearg was a gift from the 4th Lancer's father, I don't think Gil would have a prototype of that.
The anti-magic lance was Gae Dearg. I was looking it up just now to mention it.
There's also Rule Breaker, of course. Yeah, it only has the combat efficiency of an ordinary dagger, but properly wielded, an ordinary dagger can seriously hurt or kill a normal person. And once you get past his vectors, that's what Accelerator is, isn't he?
Edit:
This Shirou has Archer's skills too, right? Couldn't he turn Rule Breaker into an arrow and use it at range, or do a Gilgamesh-esque swordrain of Rule Breakers? With the power boost he has now, Shirou could probably pull that off, and Accelerator probably wouldn't expect something like an arrow or a rain of daggers to be able to ignore his vector defense. At least, not until it was too late, anyway.
There's also Rule Breaker, of course. Yeah, it only has the combat efficiency of an ordinary dagger, but properly wielded, an ordinary dagger can seriously hurt or kill a normal person. And once you get past his vectors, that's what Accelerator is, isn't he?
Edit:
This Shirou has Archer's skills too, right? Couldn't he turn Rule Breaker into an arrow and use it at range, or do a Gilgamesh-esque swordrain of Rule Breakers? With the power boost he has now, Shirou could probably pull that off, and Accelerator probably wouldn't expect something like an arrow or a rain of daggers to be able to ignore his vector defense. At least, not until it was too late, anyway.
first: Gae Bolg's Reversal of causality is superior to Gungnir's.
1a: reversal of causality=the spear already hit you Vector control lol!Powers or not.
1a: reversal of causality=the spear already hit you Vector control lol!Powers or not.
Luck and powerful supernatural defenses are two of them. Even though the wound already occured, Luck can warp destiny to stop that, making the wound 'disappear.' The same goes for Supernatural Defenses, which work...somehow.
How? I dunno, but that's what it said.
Nasu Physics, lol.
Second: Archer was without a mana/prana source for that fight, Gae Bolg in his explosion!mode Ripped 6 petals and exploded on the seventh which broke from the strain.
third: Rider's Bellerophon + Rho Aius partially deflected an severly weakened corrupted Excaliblast.
Fourth: NP are beyond mortal comprenhension and the traced & Broken versions are stated to be fuckingly unnatural, that's why the reality itself doesn't aknowledge their existance.
Fifth: a version of those Shirous coud have Gae Derg in his UBW.
sixth: Shiro traced the Kaleidostick who is a fucking tool of the second magic so Emiya Shiro and his kind of magecraft are unnatural to the toi Aru-verse
seventh: Wouldn't BB's
bypass the protections of Accel and make him vulnerable?
"Conceptual Weapon of natural life-span", capable of imposing the notion of limited life-span into the body of near-immortal creatures. Composed of Fifth True Theoretical Element, bullets fired from the gun will disintegrate all instances of Grain and Ether they come into contact with, ignoring any parameters of beings that intake either substance to deliver direct damage.
in the remote case of Shiro tracing/recreating his father's anti-magic bullets hit Accel or Touma what would happen?
if i'm wrong let me know.
if i'm wrong let me know.
Accelerator wouldn't care (besides, he has an anti-magic field).
And no, Shirou could never trace Black Barrel, hell, if he had the original he wouldn't even be able to touch it.
It's a conceptual weapon made out of a super anti magic material, a being with even a little magic in them can't even hold it.
That's why magical beings it hits explode, the Conceptual Weapon part of it makes them Mortal in the Human sense, then the Anti-Magic material the bullet is made of causes them to explode in a chain reaction with their Prana/Mana/whatever.
It's a conceptual weapon made out of a super anti magic material, a being with even a little magic in them can't even hold it.
That's why magical beings it hits explode, the Conceptual Weapon part of it makes them Mortal in the Human sense, then the Anti-Magic material the bullet is made of causes them to explode in a chain reaction with their Prana/Mana/whatever.
It either (depending on if we're using the Notes version of the other one, which could be the same but do different things so, maybe not):
Forces mortality on the Immortal.
Kills things with True Ether/Grain (Space Dust) in them.
but why the hell are we even puting an Shiro Vs Accel? are they gonna clash in a figth, be enemies or what?
It just came up.
Not like it matters whether or not Shiro can kill Accerator. If Shiro managed to do so it's an automatic bad end with >9000 Misaka Imouto going insane and rampaging across the globe. And if it's after that all shiro would have to do is wait for 15 minutes and stab the shit out of Accelerator burned out body, but by then he's a good guy trying to atone for all the horrible shit he's done.
Also got a question, how long had the level shift project be going on? It ocured to me that if it started even 3 years prior Accelerator would of had to be killing about a dozen a day to have his kill count.
Also got a question, how long had the level shift project be going on? It ocured to me that if it started even 3 years prior Accelerator would of had to be killing about a dozen a day to have his kill count.
Hmm... how does the Anti-Magic/Anti-Esper field work anyway? I heard it said that it reacts... poorly.
i.e. A spell cast on an Esper wouldn't work normally. It would fizzle. It would, however, also fizzle the Esper.
Same thing the other way around.
Espers touching magical items burn themselves.
...At least, the above is what I heard.
Anyway, even if it doesn't work like that... What about Shirou's Anti-Esper abilities?
Remember: he has Avalon subtly, slowly healing his body. Furthermore, he has UBW acting upon his body as well -- it sometimes reacts to protect him by reinforcing him with swords. Wouldn't that work as an equivalent Anti-Esper field?
Also, I just love how we're already categorizing Shirou as a Magic User... for all we know, UBW could translate to an AIM field.
Frankly, Shirou probably straddles some border between "Gemstone Esper" and "Saint." For the former, he has a unique ability... one which he practically was "born" with if we go by the fire as him being reborn. An ability that really only lets him do one thing, but does a lot.
For the latter -- Origin links back to Akasha, Void, " ", and Reality Marbles are expressions of a person's Origin. Both Reality Marbles and activated Origins allow people, even ones with little or NO magical potential, to do Weird Shit?. Also, Shirou can use Reinforcement, possibly at Archer's level if he has Archer's memories or the memories of Heaven's Feel!Shirou, as well as "borrow" the skill/speed/strength of previous wielders of Noble Phantasms.
Saints are known for being closer to the Platonic Idea of Human, a copy of God; for having weird powers; and for being able to overclock their body and perform incredible feats of strength. Reaching for Origin/Akasha can be said to be an attempt to become one with God. Also, wuess what feats of badassery aided with Reinforcement might look like to an observer? Something a Saint might pull off...
All in all, Shirou is in for some Interesting Times. Such misfortune...
i.e. A spell cast on an Esper wouldn't work normally. It would fizzle. It would, however, also fizzle the Esper.
Same thing the other way around.
Espers touching magical items burn themselves.
...At least, the above is what I heard.
Anyway, even if it doesn't work like that... What about Shirou's Anti-Esper abilities?
Remember: he has Avalon subtly, slowly healing his body. Furthermore, he has UBW acting upon his body as well -- it sometimes reacts to protect him by reinforcing him with swords. Wouldn't that work as an equivalent Anti-Esper field?
Also, I just love how we're already categorizing Shirou as a Magic User... for all we know, UBW could translate to an AIM field.
Frankly, Shirou probably straddles some border between "Gemstone Esper" and "Saint." For the former, he has a unique ability... one which he practically was "born" with if we go by the fire as him being reborn. An ability that really only lets him do one thing, but does a lot.
For the latter -- Origin links back to Akasha, Void, " ", and Reality Marbles are expressions of a person's Origin. Both Reality Marbles and activated Origins allow people, even ones with little or NO magical potential, to do Weird Shit?. Also, Shirou can use Reinforcement, possibly at Archer's level if he has Archer's memories or the memories of Heaven's Feel!Shirou, as well as "borrow" the skill/speed/strength of previous wielders of Noble Phantasms.
Saints are known for being closer to the Platonic Idea of Human, a copy of God; for having weird powers; and for being able to overclock their body and perform incredible feats of strength. Reaching for Origin/Akasha can be said to be an attempt to become one with God. Also, wuess what feats of badassery aided with Reinforcement might look like to an observer? Something a Saint might pull off...
All in all, Shirou is in for some Interesting Times. Such misfortune...
Ah, good old Ryuugi. Mind you, I'm just getting into f/sn and have not seen/read To-aru myself and might get some things wrong, but...
No offense, just I have to ask...
Why are you under the assumption that Shirou's abilities and weapons fit within the predefined rules of the To-aru universe? That accelerator's abilities will defend him against anything that Shirou could throw against him?
You say that
So why should Accelerator's abilities defend him from Shirou's weapons as if they were To-aru's magic or esper abilities? Considering half the shit noble phantasms are capable of, why shouldn't they be treated like 'nonsensium?' Considering what Gae bolg is capable of, let alone another noble phantasm, it should easily also classify as 'nonsensium'
Why should accelerator's anti-magic field protect him from a magic that isn't of his own universe? And if accelerator's abilities are able to affect Shirou, shouldn't Shirou's weapon's abilities have their own rules work as normal?
In fact, on the subject of Gae Bolg, according the the type moon wiki...
Accelerator doesn't have nearly enough luck, he might have decent reflexive instincts but probably not nearly good enough, doesn't have an auto resurrection ability, and his anti-magic field might not even necessarily work due to Fate's magic not being necessarily the same thing as To-aru's, considering that Shirou's stuff is from an entirely different universe and set of rules. though this was already covered, but the point is that there's a good chance shirou can fuck accelerator over with Gae bolg alone.
Also, consider that Shirou can make these weapons due to his reality marble, which means that they're almost perfect replications, rank depending on if UBW is deployed or not, and shit that should not be possible to reproduce, which should make any weapon, and every other benefit that they provide Shirou, that he creates be under the 'nonsensium.'
Really, you keep pushing Accelerator's anti-magic field ability, but really, I'm not necessarily seeing WHY it should protect him, especially as you keep referring to F/SN's magic as if it were the same as esper or To-aru's magic abilities, then denying that they are the same and should be treated differently and that instinctively that To-aru's rules trumph F/sN's.
Still I'm interested the writer's ideas and writing so far, though.
Edit: beaten to the punch
No offense, just I have to ask...
Why are you under the assumption that Shirou's abilities and weapons fit within the predefined rules of the To-aru universe? That accelerator's abilities will defend him against anything that Shirou could throw against him?
You say that
Esper Abilities /= thaumaturgy
Why should accelerator's anti-magic field protect him from a magic that isn't of his own universe? And if accelerator's abilities are able to affect Shirou, shouldn't Shirou's weapon's abilities have their own rules work as normal?
In fact, on the subject of Gae Bolg, according the the type moon wiki...
The only way to effectively defend against the attack is to have a high enough degree of luck to be able to alter fate, which would be heightened by also having good reflexive instincts, an auto-resurrection ability, or to have a shield, such as Rho Aias, which has the capability to defend against the lance by having a higher prana output in order to make it impossible for the lance to have struck in the first place.
Also, consider that Shirou can make these weapons due to his reality marble, which means that they're almost perfect replications, rank depending on if UBW is deployed or not, and shit that should not be possible to reproduce, which should make any weapon, and every other benefit that they provide Shirou, that he creates be under the 'nonsensium.'
Really, you keep pushing Accelerator's anti-magic field ability, but really, I'm not necessarily seeing WHY it should protect him, especially as you keep referring to F/SN's magic as if it were the same as esper or To-aru's magic abilities, then denying that they are the same and should be treated differently and that instinctively that To-aru's rules trumph F/sN's.
Still I'm interested the writer's ideas and writing so far, though.
Edit: beaten to the punch
Hmm... how does the Anti-Magic/Anti-Esper field work anyway? I heard it said that it reacts... poorly.
i.e. A spell cast on an Esper wouldn't work normally. It would fizzle. It would, however, also fizzle the Esper.
Same thing the other way around.
Espers touching magical items burn themselves.
Same thing the other way around.
Espers touching magical items burn themselves.
Anyway, even if it doesn't work like that... What about Shirou's Anti-Esper abilities?
Remember: he has Avalon subtly, slowly healing his body. Furthermore, he has UBW acting upon his body as well -- it sometimes reacts to protect him by reinforcing him with swords. Wouldn't that work as an equivalent Anti-Esper field?
Remember: he has Avalon subtly, slowly healing his body. Furthermore, he has UBW acting upon his body as well -- it sometimes reacts to protect him by reinforcing him with swords. Wouldn't that work as an equivalent Anti-Esper field?
Also, I just love how we're already categorizing Shirou as a Magic User... for all we know, UBW could translate to an AIM field.
Frankly, Shirou probably straddles some border between "Gemstone Esper" and "Saint." For the former, he has a unique ability... one which he practically was "born" with if we go by the fire as him being reborn. An ability that really only lets him do one thing, but does a lot.
For the latter -- Origin links back to Akasha, Void, " ", and Reality Marbles are expressions of a person's Origin. Both Reality Marbles and activated Origins allow people, even ones with little or NO magical potential, to do Weird ShitÖ. Also, Shirou can use Reinforcement, possibly at Archer's level if he has Archer's memories or the memories of Heaven's Feel!Shirou, as well as "borrow" the skill/speed/strength of previous wielders of Noble Phantasms.
Saints are known for being closer to the Platonic Idea of Human, a copy of God; for having weird powers; and for being able to overclock their body and perform incredible feats of strength. Reaching for Origin/Akasha can be said to be an attempt to become one with God. Also, wuess what feats of badassery aided with Reinforcement might look like to an observer? Something a Saint might pull off...
All in all, Shirou is in for some Interesting Times. Such misfortune...
Frankly, Shirou probably straddles some border between "Gemstone Esper" and "Saint." For the former, he has a unique ability... one which he practically was "born" with if we go by the fire as him being reborn. An ability that really only lets him do one thing, but does a lot.
For the latter -- Origin links back to Akasha, Void, " ", and Reality Marbles are expressions of a person's Origin. Both Reality Marbles and activated Origins allow people, even ones with little or NO magical potential, to do Weird ShitÖ. Also, Shirou can use Reinforcement, possibly at Archer's level if he has Archer's memories or the memories of Heaven's Feel!Shirou, as well as "borrow" the skill/speed/strength of previous wielders of Noble Phantasms.
Saints are known for being closer to the Platonic Idea of Human, a copy of God; for having weird powers; and for being able to overclock their body and perform incredible feats of strength. Reaching for Origin/Akasha can be said to be an attempt to become one with God. Also, wuess what feats of badassery aided with Reinforcement might look like to an observer? Something a Saint might pull off...
All in all, Shirou is in for some Interesting Times. Such misfortune...
UBW is, indeed, natural to him, but it's not a Gemstone thing; it's a really high-level form of Magecraft that he can use.
At the same time, that's not how Saints work (they're a by-product of a Magical Theory). In addition, while being really strong and fast are part of being a Saint, being really strong or fast does not equal being a Saint.
Luck and powerful supernatural defenses are two of them. Even though the wound already occured, Luck can warp destiny to stop that, making the wound 'disappear.' The same goes for Supernatural Defenses, which work...somehow.
How? I dunno, but that's what it said.
Nasu Physics, lol.
How? I dunno, but that's what it said.
Nasu Physics, lol.
As in, the heart will be pierced, then the lance will take the path to the heart. That is the reversal of causality.
It is, however, not a negation of causality. Both the cause and the effect still remains, merely switched in their order. Therefore, if there are no possible causes, then the effect can never happen, even if the effect would have gone first.
Shirou behind Avalon will never be pierced by Gae Bolg.
(By that reasoning, I doubt Gae Bolg will work on Accelerator, merely by the fact that there is no way for the spear to actually get to the heart. It's as if he's behind an impervious shield.)
Luck doesn't...disappears the wound. Luck makes it so that the wound never happened in the first place. The fate of the victim is to be pierced by the spear, yet a high enough luck will counteract that absolute fate so that the effect of the spear does not take place.
That is, the heart was never pierced.
Fragarach's the one which uses the order of time to erase things that cannot be.
(Don't go on this whole different worlds necessarily equal unknown effects. Else, you might as well argue that Shirou can punch Accelerator simply on the basis that Shirou's from the Nasuverse which isn't the Toaruverse which means he's alien/"nonsensium" to Accelerator which means POW! It is a crossover...certain things they have in common should still be in common. I mean, an NP is very high level thaumaturgy, but if it's used in a common way, like say a slash or a swing, then it should be treated by the basic commonality of the two verse.)
That said, I doubt Gae Dearg/Rule Breaker will nullify Accelerator's AIM field unless you specifically make their mechanics in Toaru susceptible to them.
Ryuugi said:
Also, I just love how we're already categorizing Shirou as a Magic User... for all we know, UBW could translate to an AIM field.
Frankly, Shirou probably straddles some border between "Gemstone Esper" and "Saint." For the former, he has a unique ability... one which he practically was "born" with if we go by the fire as him being reborn. An ability that really only lets him do one thing, but does a lot.
For the latter -- Origin links back to Akasha, Void, " ", and Reality Marbles are expressions of a person's Origin. Both Reality Marbles and activated Origins allow people, even ones with little or NO magical potential, to do Weird ShitÖ. Also, Shirou can use Reinforcement, possibly at Archer's level if he has Archer's memories or the memories of Heaven's Feel!Shirou, as well as "borrow" the skill/speed/strength of previous wielders of Noble Phantasms.
Saints are known for being closer to the Platonic Idea of Human, a copy of God; for having weird powers; and for being able to overclock their body and perform incredible feats of strength. Reaching for Origin/Akasha can be said to be an attempt to become one with God. Also, wuess what feats of badassery aided with Reinforcement might look like to an observer? Something a Saint might pull off...
All in all, Shirou is in for some Interesting Times. Such misfortune...
Frankly, Shirou probably straddles some border between "Gemstone Esper" and "Saint." For the former, he has a unique ability... one which he practically was "born" with if we go by the fire as him being reborn. An ability that really only lets him do one thing, but does a lot.
For the latter -- Origin links back to Akasha, Void, " ", and Reality Marbles are expressions of a person's Origin. Both Reality Marbles and activated Origins allow people, even ones with little or NO magical potential, to do Weird ShitÖ. Also, Shirou can use Reinforcement, possibly at Archer's level if he has Archer's memories or the memories of Heaven's Feel!Shirou, as well as "borrow" the skill/speed/strength of previous wielders of Noble Phantasms.
Saints are known for being closer to the Platonic Idea of Human, a copy of God; for having weird powers; and for being able to overclock their body and perform incredible feats of strength. Reaching for Origin/Akasha can be said to be an attempt to become one with God. Also, wuess what feats of badassery aided with Reinforcement might look like to an observer? Something a Saint might pull off...
All in all, Shirou is in for some Interesting Times. Such misfortune...
UBW is, indeed, natural to him, but it's not a Gemstone thing; it's a really high-level form of Magecraft that he can use.
At the same time, that's not how Saints work (they're a by-product of a Magical Theory). In addition, while being really strong and fast are part of being a Saint, being really strong or fast does not equal being a Saint.
His main shtick is tracing -- which he can do because of his inner world, UBW. Tracing is more or less innate to him. Aru-verse magic is learned. That is why he might be mistaken for a Gemstone... if someone learned of his abilities, and history.
On the flip side, someone might percieve his abilities as being magic. Some kind of magic that materializes weapons -- look, he even has an incantation! And, he can be really strong and fast... hmm, could he be some kind of Saint?
It's all about perception. And misfortune.
Well, it's also about what the author decides. I also think the reactions if/when people learn (more of?) what he can do, or if anyone ever sees him pull out Unlimited Blade Works, will be LEGEN--wait for it... Personally I think he is, in fact, something unique to this world, like Touma. In a similar way to how Touma's power is neither Magic nor ESP, I mean. It's something else entirely, believed to be divine in origin. Shirou's power would be something something else else entirely. --DARY!!
A few things.
1. Remember, Rank isn't raw power, it's the mystery and history of the spell or artifact. Remember how Berserker would be unarmed by a world-destroying attack that wasn't Rank A? It's entirely possible that he'd be able to take Accelerator's exaton attack to the chin, since Esper powers haven't been around for very long, and as a result, haven't accumulated a lot of mystery and history.
2. I'm pretty sure Gae Bolg would be able to kill Accelerator. Gae Bolg reverses causality to ensure it finds the heart of its target; the only way to stop it is to ensure there is no path to heart to the target, and Accelerator almost certainly couldn't use his vector control meaningfully on something that possesses every possible vector to begin with.
3. Rule Breaker probably wouldn't work on Accelerator, since it needs to pierce the target to undo the magic, and it wouldn't be able to pierce Accelerator's vector control. Gae Dearg probably would, since it simply ignores magical defenses, and that's pretty much what Accelerator's vector control is.
4. Fragarach would most likely kill Accelerator before he was born, since he's used his vector control ever since then.
1. Remember, Rank isn't raw power, it's the mystery and history of the spell or artifact. Remember how Berserker would be unarmed by a world-destroying attack that wasn't Rank A? It's entirely possible that he'd be able to take Accelerator's exaton attack to the chin, since Esper powers haven't been around for very long, and as a result, haven't accumulated a lot of mystery and history.
2. I'm pretty sure Gae Bolg would be able to kill Accelerator. Gae Bolg reverses causality to ensure it finds the heart of its target; the only way to stop it is to ensure there is no path to heart to the target, and Accelerator almost certainly couldn't use his vector control meaningfully on something that possesses every possible vector to begin with.
3. Rule Breaker probably wouldn't work on Accelerator, since it needs to pierce the target to undo the magic, and it wouldn't be able to pierce Accelerator's vector control. Gae Dearg probably would, since it simply ignores magical defenses, and that's pretty much what Accelerator's vector control is.
4. Fragarach would most likely kill Accelerator before he was born, since he's used his vector control ever since then.