Nasuverse Archer question

[ttestagr]

I know Archer's plan to get out of the Throne is to kill his younger self and cause a parodox. The chances of it working aren't considered good though.

But is that really the only option?

If I remember correctly, only one version of a person can be in the Throne. That's the version that is ultimate, and the one that would show up in every time and dimension.

The plan I was thinking of, is if it would be possible to change that version instead of trying to be erased from the Throne.

Archer basically, is a Counter Guardian. It's really the only way to get into the Throne in the modern age, and its that shitty job that gets to Archer the most. However, it isn't utterly impossible to become a heroic spirit the old fashioned way. Just virtually impossible.

So since Archer has nothing but time, and an infinite number of infinite realities to try in, would it be possible for him to attempt to put Shirou on a path that would replace him with a normal eirei? As ridiculously unlikely as it is to succeed, is it that much more impossible than his normal plan? And would he be happier with the result?

 

[Shaderic]

That's a good question, that brings up the omniverse theory. Put simply, 'There's always a bigger fish'. No matter how powerful an Eirei is, shouldn't they be replaced by a more powerful version from another AU? Of course, this could have been covered by the founders of the fuyuki grail wars with some pre-set limits so they don't rip apart the world just by their servant existing. Or, just drawing from 'close' alternate universes.

 

[ttestagr]

That's a good question, that brings up the omniverse theory. Put simply, 'There's always a bigger fish'. No matter how powerful an Eirei is, shouldn't they be replaced by a more powerful version from another AU? Of course, this could have been covered by the founders of the fuyuki grail wars with some pre-set limits so they don't rip apart the world just by their servant existing. Or, just drawing from 'close' alternate universes.

Eh? Not really. There isn't an omniverse theory, its canon that there are an infinite number of parallel universes. That's Zelretch's entire point. And a big point in Heaven's Feel. The ultimate version, the best version of a hero is the one who gets in the Throne.

Archer is that version, and is trying to get out by creating a paradox so he doesn't exist. My question, is if he can get out with a paradox where he gets replaced.

 

[knight_of_ni]

That in of itself would be a paradox, and would probably have lower chances of succeeding. Only counter guardians can be summoned before their legend develops so by trying to force Shirou into becoming a true heroic spirit....he ends up creating a paradox. That is if it would succeed.

So...yeah, at the end of the day that either means that Archer still gets erased or gets put back in place with no real change. Probably the latter.

 

[toraneko]

Okay, so, what you're proposing is that, instead of going the Angsty McKillmyself route, Archer decides to make Shirou more awesome, more badass, and more famous than he himself ever was, thus creating a Shirou to replace him in the Throne of Heroes as the "ultimate version of EMIYA"?

...Fuck. That's an idea so awesome that I wish I had the talent to write it.

 

[al103]

It was paradox? I don't remember... but wasn't it that counterguardian can erase person from all timelines?

 

[Garahs]

Should we come up with ways he could accomplish this? I mean it's awesome that Shirou would become more awesome than Archer, but we also need him to become a legend. Maybe single-handedly stop an invading army or something without a single fatality and then vanish?

I like the idea, just how will it be made to work considering his personality (or have it be changed in a reasonable way)?

 

[bored]

Theoretically, if Shirou found a way to extend his own lifespan significantly, he could have earned his legend either during or after the events that set up Angel Notes. As he exists outside of time, Archer could have enough knowledge to allow Shirou to avert some of the more extreme tragedies of the time, thus becoming a hero.

Pitching it as saving the world could also be a way for Archer to convince Shirou to go along with the idea and not sacrifice himself before then.
I'm not seeing any obvious problems beyond the whole extended lifespan bit, but that might just be my lack of sleep. :huh.:

Angel Notes wiki entry

 

[shout27]

Hmm, in all honesty I get the feeling that plot'd be heavily reliant on the different magics available for his use through Tracing. As long as he doesn't have to deal with magicians actively attempting to destroy any legend he may build (wiping people's memory and/or killing them through unknown means), he could easily become an urban legend, after that is when things would get tricky. . .
Depending on how many shitty journalists get it into their heads to write lies about his capabilities making him an underdog and spreading tales of his 'mortal level prowess' through the papers he'd have to get even more creative about presenting himself as literally being superhuman without revealing the extent of his power and being drug free . Without, of course, the magicians of the world being able to reasonably pin what methods he uses and 'spreading the word' amongst themselves.
As Xellos would say, 'It's a Secret!'

 

[ttestagr]

Theoretically, if Shirou found a way to extend his own lifespan significantly, he could have earned his legend either during or after the events that set up Angel Notes. As he exists outside of time, Archer could have enough knowledge to allow Shirou to avert some of the more extreme tragedies of the time, thus becoming a hero.

Pitching it as saving the world could also be a way for Archer to convince Shirou to go along with the idea and not sacrifice himself before then.
I'm not seeing any obvious problems beyond the whole extended lifespan bit, but that might just be my lack of sleep. :huh.:

Angel Notes wiki entry

For Shirou to live that long, he'd need to use that method where he's immortal as long as a Servant is alive. Or get an immortality potion from Medea. Gilgamesh has one too I think.

There aren't many options that would leave him in good condition though. The soul breaks down over time.

 

[Liam-don]

Is that also the case for Servant's soul?

 

[toraneko]

No, Servants are timeless, having transcended what it means to be human and mortal, and being raised to the level of a legend.

However, while Archer is thus undying, this Shirou isn't. He can't give Shirou his immortality, either.

 

[Ray]

Archer is thus undying

thus undying

undying

EXCEPT WHEN HE IS KILLED!

*ahem*

 

[Liam-don]

However, while Archer is thus undying, this Shirou isn't. He can't give Shirou his immortality, either.

I'm sure he can't do it directly. But what If Archer created a sword that was, essentially, himself. Maybe we milk the "Emiya lives is life as a sword" for all its worth and Archer turns into a sword or maybe he just traces and pours everything, and I mean everything, he has into it. Either way, we have the sword (NP?) Emiya, what if Emiya Shirou recorded it perfectly? He'd end up with an Heroic Spirit within his soul, the most hax Artificial Phantasm ever.

Putting aside the usual problems that entails any AP, could this actually make him immortal? Or at least be a step in the right direction?

 

[knight_of_ni]

However, while Archer is thus undying, this Shirou isn't. He can't give Shirou his immortality, either.

I'm sure he can't do it directly. But what If Archer created a sword that was, essentially, himself. Maybe we milk the "Emiya lives is life as a sword" for all its worth and Archer turns into a sword or maybe he just traces and pours everything, and I mean everything, he has into it. Either way, we have the sword (NP?) Emiya, what if Emiya Shirou recorded it perfectly? He'd end up with an Heroic Spirit within his soul, the most hax Artificial Phantasm ever.

Putting aside the usual problems that entails any AP, could this actually make him immortal? Or at least be a step in the right direction?

No.

The issue is that Archer's real soul is outside of the actual space time continuum. The copy of Archer's soul, the one that is actually seen in FSN, would age the same as any other soul because it still exists in the space time continuum.

 

[bored]

Theoretically, if Shirou found a way to extend his own lifespan significantly, he could have earned his legend either during or after the events that set up Angel Notes.? As he exists outside of time, Archer could have enough knowledge to allow Shirou to avert some of the more extreme tragedies of the time, thus becoming a hero.

Pitching it as saving the world could also be a way for Archer to convince Shirou to go along with the idea and not sacrifice himself before then.
I'm not seeing any obvious problems beyond the whole extended lifespan bit, but that might just be my lack of sleep. :huh.:

Angel Notes wiki entry

For Shirou to live that long, he'd need to use that method where he's immortal as long as a Servant is alive. Or get an immortality potion from Medea. Gilgamesh has one too I think.

There aren't many options that would leave him in good condition though. The soul breaks down over time.

Alright, after a little bit of sleep, I should be slightly more coherent. The reason I suggested the story go in this direction was that in Angel Notes, his unusual abilities could be used openly without the Association getting involved. Also, it would provide epic enemies for him to fight in order to create his legend (you can't get much more epic than the types). Lastly, the state of the world should have created the conditions for more heroic spirits to be created.
This is from the heroic spirit type-moon wiki entry:

It is almost impossible for someone of the present era to become a Heroic Spirit, for the great events of the past became everyday occurrences. In an age when the destruction of the planet is prevented all the time by preserving the Amazon forest from being plundered by companies, saving the world is no big deal. Another issue is that, because modern armaments give power to anyone use them, it is hard for a hero who uses todayÆs firing weapons to be recognized as a unique being. Even the most outstanding modern gunslinger will be seen by the world as ôan expert that everybody can become through trainingö, not as a ôone-of-a-kind existenceö. If the conditions for the creation of a hero are met for a user of modern armaments, what will ascend to the rank of Heroic Spirit is the gun itself under the terms of ôthe most excellent weapon of its timeö.

As for the extended lifespan, doesn't Avalon prevent deterioration of the body due to aging? Avalon

I had forgotten about the deterioration of the soul. Does anyone know of anything short of becoming a dead apostle that would slow or stop that?

 

[Liam-don]

No.

The issue is that Archer's real soul is outside of the actual space time continuum. The copy of Archer's soul, the one that is actually seen in FSN, would age the same as any other soul because it still exists in the space time continuum.

That's really doesn't seem to be what Toraneko was saying above, or even what he said before on that subject in the Immortality thread. Though I don't know which one of you is right. :huh.:

As for the extended lifespan, doesn't Avalon prevent deterioration of the body due to aging? Avalon

That might be possible as long as he has Saber.

 

[knight_of_ni]

No.

The issue is that Archer's real soul is outside of the actual space time continuum. The copy of Archer's soul, the one that is actually seen in FSN, would age the same as any other soul because it still exists in the space time continuum.

That's really doesn't seem to be what Toraneko was saying above, or even what he said before on that subject in the Immortality thread. Though I don't know which one of you is right. :huh.:

As for the extended lifespan, doesn't Avalon prevent deterioration of the body due to aging? Avalon

That might be possible as long as he has Saber.

Wrong.

The reason Tartari and Roa are "immortal" (which is wrong because they will die with humanity, provided they last that long) is because they can reform their souls after their dispersion under certain conditions, thus it is a form of reincarnation where their souls "die" and are "reborn."

That is not immortality.

 

[toraneko]

undying

EXCEPT WHEN HE IS KILLED!

Spirit undying, body not so.
(Valiantly trying not to use that meme. Really.)

Also, I'm uncertain as to whether or not a Servant who lives past the Grail War he/she participated in would age as a "normal" human would.

re: TATARI and Roa, I was more referring to the price they paid for their immortality rather than whether or not it was "genuine" immortality. Even with his reincarnation hax, Roa still loses pieces of his identity with each successive repetition. TATARI literally lost his identity. That's false immortality.


If he lives long enough to see the events of Angel Notes, would it still even be possible for anyone to enter the Throne of Heroes at all? Didn't the World's death end that system?

 

[ttestagr]

No.

The issue is that Archer's real soul is outside of the actual space time continuum. The copy of Archer's soul, the one that is actually seen in FSN, would age the same as any other soul because it still exists in the space time continuum.

That's really doesn't seem to be what Toraneko was saying above, or even what he said before on that subject in the Immortality thread. Though I don't know which one of you is right. :huh.:

As for the extended lifespan, doesn't Avalon prevent deterioration of the body due to aging? Avalon

That might be possible as long as he has Saber.

Wrong.

The reason Tartari and Roa are "immortal" (which is wrong because they will die with humanity, provided they last that long) is because they can reform their souls after their dispersion under certain conditions, thus it is a form of reincarnation where their souls "die" and are "reborn."

That is not immortality.

Also wrong. About Roa at least. His reincarnation is considered a form of immortality. It does not rely on certain conditions, he chooses who his host will be. It does break down over time like normal though.

 

[Fatuous One]

If he lives long enough to see the events of Angel Notes, would it still even be possible for anyone to enter the Throne of Heroes at all? Didn't the World's death end that system?

No, it wouldn't. By the time Angel Notes rolls around, humanity is dead = no Alaya = no Counter Guardians. Gaia is also dead so that means no ToH activity at all.

In other words, even if Shirou could live that long, his 'deeds' (and I say that laughingly since the way war was done by that age is so far above Shirou's tracing it's like comparing a pistol to a nuclear warhead) wouldn't even matter.

EDIT:

On to the main topic, I would say that I believe that it isn't possible. I say 'believe' because I don't recall exactly how it works, but from what I vaguely remember, once you're in the throne, you don't get out. Even if there's another version of you that makes it to the throne it's not a 're-write', it'd be a file merger (possibly with Shirou getting another 'book' of a different life he lived, but maybe not).

Also, Shirou becoming an Eirei in the conventional way is all but impossible anyway. The Counter Guardian Shirou had already done really impressive deeds (saved the world once or twice), but that still didn't qualify him. The way things go in the modern era make it pretty much impossible for people to get in like the past ages.

 

[knight_of_ni]

Mh...I could have sworn that it was said that Roa would die with humanity because he required humans to extend his life, so even he would cease to exist by Angel Notes. It is a very vague condition, but it is still a condition.


Mh...I see, Toraneko, still, given the lack of Immortal characters actually noted and the immortals in the divine age, I imagine that there is no such thing as an absolute immortality in the Nasuverse.

Hell, even the characters without a concept of death (according to our understanding) can die.

 

[toraneko]

Mh...I could have sworn that it was said that Roa would die with humanity because he required humans to extend his life, so even he would cease to exist by Angel Notes. It is a very vague condition, but it is still a condition.

Without a human to reincarnate into, yeah, Roa's "immortality" ends. And even he muses at how eventually the World will die, so his immortality is incomplete. And there's also the identity-degradation thing.

Mh...I see, Toraneko, still, given the lack of Immortal characters actually noted and the immortals in the divine age, I imagine that there is no such thing as an absolute immortality in the Nasuverse.

Hell, even the characters without a concept of death (according to our understanding) can die.

That was pretty much my understanding of it.


Hmm. Yeah, it does seem like it'd be impossible for Archer to be "replaced".
But it still makes for a kick-ass fic idea.

 

[Garahs]

Yeah, it may be impossible, but the attempts could still be awesome if the right writer took it up.

 

[GhostElder]

If this goal is impossible to be done in present and future times... well there is one other temporal direction to try isn't there? Besides who knows what sort of artifacts Zoken might have laying around that mansion...