Bleach Arrancar Arc Revised

Vexarian

Well-Known Member
#76
shinzero01 said:
grant said:
Admittedly it does involve a lot of details and plotting. My excuse for the latter is that Kubo introduced a huge amount of plotting to a shounen series and failed to actually make it actually seem like something someone would reasonably do.

My excuse for the details is that in a fanfic it's not meant to be taken in at one sitting but rather part of a long three parter series with a few details given in the first (from start of Bleach to start of Soul Society Arc), with just enough to let the reader know that this is definitely going away from the canon backstory. The second (Soul Society Arc) would give far more details and introduce a lot of the conflicts. The third (everything from just after Soul Society Arc to Aizen's defeat) would focus on introducing and developing the Arrancar and giving the last details as well as exactly what Yamamoto, Urahara and Aizen have planned.
Yes, it would probably read better in a chapter by chapter form, but looking at the overall idea, its not something I'd want to read. I think the worst part of it is that you've not only changed the characterizations of just about everyone but the Karakura teen crew. Instead of changing the Arrancar arc, you're changing the entire Bleach setting into a convoluted morality plot with three groups trying to see who has the biggest Xanatos setup.

I think with this idea, you're trying too hard twist Bleach into one of the typical shady government plots that have been popular lately. It could turn out to be a good fic, yes. But its not something that really fits Bleach and I really think it fails on making the plot seem reasonable. Hell, most of what Urahara does in the idea is as far from reasonable as possible.
knight504 said:
Yeah, that's too convoluted for my tastes and all together it seems better suited for a seinen manga rather than shounen.

EDIT: Referring specifically to the background.
This is all pretty much exactly my problem with it. You're taking Bleach and needlessly putting it through some weird and kind of terrible strainer. You're making it absolutely ridiculously dark and edgy without giving any indication that you even understand what you're proposing, all while bashing the Shinigami and in particular Urahara so hard that I honestly can only prescribe it to some really weird personal vendetta against the character.

All while paradoxically seeming to fluff up Aizen for some reason?

Basically this is all coming off as some bizarre combination of "Trying too hard", "Horribly, horribly bad fanfiction", and "Gritty and Real means everything is awful and everything is out to screw you".

I honestly can't think of any ideas that I actually liked, which is impressive.
 

grant

Well-Known Member
#77
I'm sorry to say it but I find it simply more likely that (as I mentioned) Kubo put in a lot of twists and plotting but couldn't figure out why it should work so he just decided 'and it happens like this'.

As for bashing Shinigami, please remember that in canon the Shinigami are responsible for at least three genocides, one civil war and it's made quite clear there is corruption in Soul Society, captains are given positions they are completely unsuited for (I'm looking at you Suifen) and Mayuri's crimes are completely ignored. Everything I put in I simply took from what the series already had and unlike the series I didn't ignore it. Ironically I was actually trying to make the Shinigami more reasonable than in canon.

Two of the main points of all of it was to figure out why Aizen would do any of this in the first place and why Urahara was apparently so utterly useless for a century. Therefore Aizen's initial good objectives twisting into power grabs and Urahara building up his forces on Earth.
If it seems like basic shady government plots, that actually wasn't the intent. It was initial conflicts within SS sparking first an attempted reform movement to make captains super powered, then Aizen deciding on his own reform movement of 'take everything over in a benevolent dictatorship' while the basic SS conflict between the nobility and the career Shinigami never got settled.
Incidentally don't assume the nobles are inherently bad in the setting I've described. Ukitake and Kyoraku weren't concerned with their class standing but stopping Aizen and protecting an innocent person. The Shiba were willing to risk everything to help Urahara go after Aizen.

Interlude (between Soul Society arc and start of the Arrancar arc)


Just after Soul Society

In SS situation is very confused. Near civil war averted by AizenÆs unmasking but Shinigami arenÆt forgetting what they see alternatively as YamamotoÆs power grab/the noblesÆ treason.

Urahara is openly in control of a full army now, something he also intends to use if Visored turn on him.

Ichigo is still struggling with his powers. One of the few things SS can agree on is that they want him learning how to use Shinigami powers and not spending more time with Urahara.

Eventually a compromise is worked out where, under ZoukenÆs supervision, Ukitake (seen as one of the few moderate captains left) and Hitsugaya (someone Yamamoto thinks he can rely on now) will train him. That this will also keep him in the vicinity of Rukia is something not mentioned but that Byakuya is more than a bit irritated at.

Urahara shares details on AizenÆs known projects and helps seal IchigoÆs Hollow powers (with a secret remote that lets him activate them at any time).

Something every Shinigami/Visored agrees on is excluding the Quincy from this.
From IshidaÆs discovery of MayuriÆs activities and a Quincy perception that the Shinigami utterly failed at their self-appointed task the Quincies decide to begin their own exploration of Hueco Mundo where Aizen is believed to be hiding.

Nanao meets Lisa after centuries and apologizes for developing a crush on Kyoraku. Lisa forgives her but privately notes that after her departure Kyoraku obtained another lieutenant with a very similar appearance that he could publicly flirt with and isnÆt sure what she should make of that.

Chad is in SS custody while debate continues on what to do with him. Some want to study him, some want to execute him, some want to keep him under house arrest.

On Earth Orihime starts openly defying Urahara and demands he let her go back to Soul Society. Urahara points out that at best she would be taken hostage and quite possibly killed and either way she isnÆt going to see Ichigo soon. After YoruichiÆs scolding he eventually agrees to try to, with ShinjiÆs help, teach her how to control her powers.

Urahara deliberately keeps Orihime around Kon, the mod-soul leader and someone he has mentally altered to be very similar to Ichigo but more flirtatious. Now he hopes that if her feelings transfer to Kon he can keep control over Orihime.

Rukia is left uncertain of what she should do. SheÆs finally regaining her powers but being a young Shinigami she never realized how many fault lines Soul Society had.

Yoruichi and Suifen speak about the events of the past centuries. Yoruichi tells Suifen that she believes in UraharaÆs efforts and that he was acting to try to prevent both total domination of the worlds by Shinigami and Hollows overrunning the worlds.

Aizen decides that if he canÆt hide his efforts any longer he may as well make use of the results and sends three Arrancar to Karakura to test UraharaÆs side and attempt to retrieve (or kill and blame it on Urahara) Orihime, Luppi, Szayel and Sora. Yes, an Arrancar version of Sora Inoue.

The interlude ends there.

Edit.
With the appearance of Arrancar I'll admit that I greatly changed more than a few of them. I justify this with them having pretty meagre backstory. One of the changes is existence of 'classic' and 'new' Arrancar. Classic Arrancar are Arrancar who devote themselves to some facet of Hollow thought even after Shinigamification. Because of this they don't have as much ease using Shinigami weapons and Kido but in their released state they have more power than other Arrancar do.

Luppi û Secrets. He wants to know everything and tell nothing. Only the truly terrifying Hollows or Shinigami can force anything out of him. Likes Orihime and Rukia because he thinks theyÆre so easy to figure out, and then dislikes them for not being more of a challenge. His powers are in observation and infiltration.

Szayel û Superiority. At first glance like Grimmjow but heÆs more interested in being leader than actually leading and rather than improve himself (though he does that too) he will undercut others. Thinks he sees some similarities in Urahara and pictures himself as a sadistic mentor to Ishida. Specializes in spiritual diseases and machines.

Sora: Devotion. If he gives his promise to do something he will absolutely keep it. Aizen uses this to keep him from randomly activating his powers. Goes wild around Orihime. Hates Ichigo for doing what Sora thinks he should do. Has the reality altering power of matter transference.

Luppi and Szayel are sent for the talents in figuring things out and because Aizen can replace them. Sora is sent because Aizen hopes he can turn Orihime away from Urahara (in a miscalculation Aizen really doesn't understand how obsessed Sora is).
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#78
grant said:
I'm sorry to say it but I find it simply more likely that (as I mentioned) Kubo put in a lot of twists and plotting but couldn't figure out why it should work so he just decided 'and it happens like this'.

As for bashing Shinigami, please remember that in canon the Shinigami are responsible for at least three genocides, one civil war and it's made quite clear there is corruption in Soul Society, captains are given positions they are completely unsuited for (I'm looking at you Suifen) and Mayuri's crimes are completely ignored. Everything I put in I simply took from what the series already had and unlike the series I didn't ignore it. Ironically I was actually trying to make the Shinigami more reasonable than in canon.
To point, it was said that originally, Mayuri was supposed to be Ishida's nemesis, with each battle escalating things between them until Ishida finally kills him (which suggests Soul Society was supposed to be against Ichigo for most, if not all, the series). However, with Aizen revealed to be the Big Bad, Soul Society became good guys, so to speak, and thus, Mayuri is now the Token Evil Teammate.

Also, editorial mandate has forced many issues around, including the gross extension of the whole Arrancar superarc, as well as speed bump up the Soul Society arc faster.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#79
grant said:
As for bashing Shinigami, please remember that in canon the Shinigami are responsible for at least three genocides, one civil war and it's made quite clear there is corruption in Soul Society, captains are given positions they are completely unsuited for (I'm looking at you Suifen) and Mayuri's crimes are completely ignored.
So far as we know, SS has only been responsible for one genocide and I don't remember anything about a civil war. Other than the one they happened briefly during the SS arc.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#80
Two per canon, three if we count the bount stuff from the anime. People forget that in addition to attempting to kill all the quincy, they also killed all the helpless mod souls too. The Civil war I think was the Amagai stuff, but there was also a civil war involved with the Kokuto stuff too so it might have been that. Both those are anime related though.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#81
Totally forgot those mod souls, the poor bastards. I always thought that destroying them was really fucking pointless since it's not as if they cause any problems. Even if they didn't like the idea of sticking them in dead bodies, they already manufacture gigai which would have created an ideal fighting force in the human world.

The bount and the like only count if we're talking about anime-SS so that's neglible.

EDIT: Which could build into an interesting concept where Ichigo is put in charge of the gigai fighters spread out across Japan for rapid hollow response.
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#82
knight504 said:
Totally forgot those mod souls, the poor bastards. I always thought that destroying them was really fucking pointless since it's not as if they cause any problems. Even if they didn't like the idea of sticking them in dead bodies, they already manufacture gigai which would have created an ideal fighting force in the human world.

The bount and the like only count if we're talking about anime-SS so that's neglible.

EDIT: Which could build into an interesting concept where Ichigo is put in charge of the gigai fighters spread out across Japan for rapid hollow response.
I'd read it.

That would make things a lot more interesting, when you look at it, though in the end, several (if not all) of them certainly would have to be Mauve Shirts and die horrific deaths near the climax of the series/arc.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
#83
grant said:
I'm sorry to say it but I find it simply more likely that (as I mentioned) Kubo put in a lot of twists and plotting but couldn't figure out why it should work so he just decided 'and it happens like this'.

As for bashing Shinigami, please remember that in canon the Shinigami are responsible for at least three genocides, one civil war and it's made quite clear there is corruption in Soul Society, captains are given positions they are completely unsuited for (I'm looking at you Suifen) and Mayuri's crimes are completely ignored. Everything I put in I simply took from what the series already had and unlike the series I didn't ignore it. Ironically I was actually trying to make the Shinigami more reasonable than in canon.

Two of the main points of all of it was to figure out why Aizen would do any of this in the first place and why Urahara was apparently so utterly useless for a century. Therefore Aizen's initial good objectives twisting into power grabs and Urahara building up his forces on Earth.
If it seems like basic shady government plots, that actually wasn't the intent. It was initial conflicts within SS sparking first an attempted reform movement to make captains super powered, then Aizen deciding on his own reform movement of 'take everything over in a benevolent dictatorship' while the basic SS conflict between the nobility and the career Shinigami never got settled.
Incidentally don't assume the nobles are inherently bad in the setting I've described. Ukitake and Kyoraku weren't concerned with their class standing but stopping Aizen and protecting an innocent person. The Shiba were willing to risk everything to help Urahara go after Aizen.

Interlude (between Soul Society arc and start of the Arrancar arc)


Just after Soul Society

In SS situation is very confused. Near civil war averted by AizenÆs unmasking but Shinigami arenÆt forgetting what they see alternatively as YamamotoÆs power grab/the noblesÆ treason.

Urahara is openly in control of a full army now, something he also intends to use if Visored turn on him.

Ichigo is still struggling with his powers. One of the few things SS can agree on is that they want him learning how to use Shinigami powers and not spending more time with Urahara.

Eventually a compromise is worked out where, under ZoukenÆs supervision, Ukitake (seen as one of the few moderate captains left) and Hitsugaya (someone Yamamoto thinks he can rely on now) will train him. That this will also keep him in the vicinity of Rukia is something not mentioned but that Byakuya is more than a bit irritated at.

Urahara shares details on AizenÆs known projects and helps seal IchigoÆs Hollow powers (with a secret remote that lets him activate them at any time).

Something every Shinigami/Visored agrees on is excluding the Quincy from this.
From IshidaÆs discovery of MayuriÆs activities and a Quincy perception that the Shinigami utterly failed at their self-appointed task the Quincies decide to begin their own exploration of Hueco Mundo where Aizen is believed to be hiding.

Nanao meets Lisa after centuries and apologizes for developing a crush on Kyoraku. Lisa forgives her but privately notes that after her departure Kyoraku obtained another lieutenant with a very similar appearance that he could publicly flirt with and isnÆt sure what she should make of that.

Chad is in SS custody while debate continues on what to do with him. Some want to study him, some want to execute him, some want to keep him under house arrest.

On Earth Orihime starts openly defying Urahara and demands he let her go back to Soul Society. Urahara points out that at best she would be taken hostage and quite possibly killed and either way she isnÆt going to see Ichigo soon. After YoruichiÆs scolding he eventually agrees to try to, with ShinjiÆs help, teach her how to control her powers.

Urahara deliberately keeps Orihime around Kon, the mod-soul leader and someone he has mentally altered to be very similar to Ichigo but more flirtatious. Now he hopes that if her feelings transfer to Kon he can keep control over Orihime.

Rukia is left uncertain of what she should do. SheÆs finally regaining her powers but being a young Shinigami she never realized how many fault lines Soul Society had.

Yoruichi and Suifen speak about the events of the past centuries. Yoruichi tells Suifen that she believes in UraharaÆs efforts and that he was acting to try to prevent both total domination of the worlds by Shinigami and Hollows overrunning the worlds.

Aizen decides that if he canÆt hide his efforts any longer he may as well make use of the results and sends three Arrancar to Karakura to test UraharaÆs side and attempt to retrieve (or kill and blame it on Urahara) Orihime, Luppi, Szayel and Sora. Yes, an Arrancar version of Sora Inoue.

The interlude ends there.

Edit.
With the appearance of Arrancar I'll admit that I greatly changed more than a few of them. I justify this with them having pretty meagre backstory. One of the changes is existence of 'classic' and 'new' Arrancar. Classic Arrancar are Arrancar who devote themselves to some facet of Hollow thought even after Shinigamification. Because of this they don't have as much ease using Shinigami weapons and Kido but in their released state they have more power than other Arrancar do.

Luppi û Secrets. He wants to know everything and tell nothing. Only the truly terrifying Hollows or Shinigami can force anything out of him. Likes Orihime and Rukia because he thinks theyÆre so easy to figure out, and then dislikes them for not being more of a challenge. His powers are in observation and infiltration.

Szayel û Superiority. At first glance like Grimmjow but heÆs more interested in being leader than actually leading and rather than improve himself (though he does that too) he will undercut others. Thinks he sees some similarities in Urahara and pictures himself as a sadistic mentor to Ishida. Specializes in spiritual diseases and machines.

Sora: Devotion. If he gives his promise to do something he will absolutely keep it. Aizen uses this to keep him from randomly activating his powers. Goes wild around Orihime. Hates Ichigo for doing what Sora thinks he should do. Has the reality altering power of matter transference.

Luppi and Szayel are sent for the talents in figuring things out and because Aizen can replace them. Sora is sent because Aizen hopes he can turn Orihime away from Urahara (in a miscalculation Aizen really doesn't understand how obsessed Sora is).
So whats the point of using Orihime's brother? Just to add needless tension? You've got a huge lineup of various Arrancar to use already. Why not use Loly and Menoly, people who canonically messed with Orihime?


Again, this is the problem that I feel is in the idea. Your revision is less of a fix of the Arc and more of a retelling using contemporary themes in most action oriented tv shows. Moreso, you're drastically changing the characters of some key players to make this work.

Urahara canonically, starts out looking like the shady salesmen type. He then alternates between absentminded professor and seriously planner. He can plan. But his plans usually hinge on believing in others to be themselves. He''s extremely hands-off in almost everything he does. The only real bit of overt manipulation we see from him is hiding the Hyogoku in Rukia. Even then, he seemed to have monitored everything that happened. With Rukia's arrest, he had to interfere to keep Ishida and Ichigo from being killed.

Aizen though... from flashbacks we've seen that Aizen has been a malicious asshole the entire time. Not only providing a reason for Gin to want to murder him, but providing reasons for everyone who has seen his true self to want to kill him. Tousen is likely the only person who was truly loyal to him which is kind of ironic since the guy was blind and Aizen randomly killed him. Which leads to Aizen killing his allies, letting other allies conspire against each other, etc. If there is one thing canon establishes it is that Aizen has always only cared about himself. Canon also establishes that he's lying liar who lies.

As for Soul Society and genocides...
Well it is really looking like the Quincy one is totally justifiable now isn't it?
 

grant

Well-Known Member
#84
Sora ties into three things. The first is, again, how really inactive Urahara seems to have been. He knew that Soul Society was unknowingly harboring a power hungry ass with illusion powers and an interest in his Hollowification experiments and as far as we can tell he never has a plan to deal with this beyond 'find a random Shinigami girl and stick the hogyoku in her'? Never any hopes of revealing the truth about Aizen? Just leaving Aizen alone and hoping he can't recreate the hogyoku? I wanted to find something he could actively be doing.

The second is that I wanted an Arrancar character with a trait you could call 'good' but really not so.

The third would be something that Orihime herself would have to deal with. Loly and Menoly also play a similar role.

---

Now on Aizen there was only one thing I took away from the Arrancar arc. I would estimate that about 95% of everything Aizen ever did was absolutely pointless and in fact counterproductive. Stabbing Hinamori? Pointless. Showing up to openly betray everyone to get the hogyoku? Pointless. Kidnapping Orihime? Turned out to be pointless. Randomly arranging one on one fights with the Rescue Orihime team? Pointless. Not ripping apart all of his Shinigami and Visored enemies in a minute? Pointless. Tricking Hitsugaya into stabbing Hinamori? Incredibly pointless. Trying to kill Hallibel? Equally so.
I'm of the opinion that Kubo, realizing that giving Aizen illusion powers and so much Shinigami power made him effectively unbeatable, had to write Aizen as an idiot (which is why I had the idea of a disease that would kill Aizen every time he used his powers insteadbcc).

---

Lastly the Quincy genocide*. It might have been the right decision. In most developed nations today we'd still call it a war crime and it shows that, like the mod-souls, Soul Society will go much further than might be necessary to deal with an issue. The only thing I wanted to change about it was that I wanted to make the reason for it more believable. I don't know if Kubo noticed or not, but there are a lot more humans alive today than there ever have been (in fact there's over three times as many as there were a century ago). The whole 'balance of souls alive and dead' doesn't make any sense, so I simply changed it to 'annihilating too many souls at once puts everything in danger'.

*Everything we see suggests that there were enough to call it a genocide and it seems to fit the other characteristics.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
#85
grant said:
Sora ties into three things. The first is, again, how really inactive Urahara seems to have been. He knew that Soul Society was unknowingly harboring a power hungry ass with illusion powers and an interest in his Hollowification experiments and as far as we can tell he never has a plan to deal with this beyond 'find a random Shinigami girl and stick the hogyoku in her'? Never any hopes of revealing the truth about Aizen? Just leaving Aizen alone and hoping he can't recreate the hogyoku? I wanted to find something he could actively be doing.

The second is that I wanted an Arrancar character with a trait you could call 'good' but really not so.

The third would be something that Orihime herself would have to deal with. Loly and Menoly also play a similar role.

---

Now on Aizen there was only one thing I took away from the Arrancar arc. I would estimate that about 95% of everything Aizen ever did was absolutely pointless and in fact counterproductive. Stabbing Hinamori? Pointless. Showing up to openly betray everyone to get the hogyoku? Pointless. Kidnapping Orihime? Turned out to be pointless. Randomly arranging one on one fights with the Rescue Orihime team? Pointless. Not ripping apart all of his Shinigami and Visored enemies in a minute? Pointless. Tricking Hitsugaya into stabbing Hinamori? Incredibly pointless. Trying to kill Hallibel? Equally so.
I'm of the opinion that Kubo, realizing that giving Aizen illusion powers and so much Shinigami power made him effectively unbeatable, had to write Aizen as an idiot (which is why I had the idea of a disease that would kill Aizen every time he used his powers insteadbcc).

---

Lastly the Quincy genocide*. It might have been the right decision. In most developed nations today we'd still call it a war crime and it shows that, like the mod-souls, Soul Society will go much further than might be necessary to deal with an issue. The only thing I wanted to change about it was that I wanted to make the reason for it more believable. I don't know if Kubo noticed or not, but there are a lot more humans alive today than there ever have been (in fact there's over three times as many as there were a century ago). The whole 'balance of souls alive and dead' doesn't make any sense, so I simply changed it to 'annihilating too many souls at once puts everything in danger'.

*Everything we see suggests that there were enough to call it a genocide and it seems to fit the other characteristics.
One thing to note with the Quincy thing and balance.

There are potentially millions of hollows at any given time, its just that their method of growth merges them into single beings. There are just as many souls in the areas outside of Soul Society. Don't forget that Soul Society is just the police force of the afterlife and outside its walls are the normal souls. The current Quincy have been slaughtering pretty much every spiritual entity they come across and really messing up the balance.

As for Aizen. Some of that 'pointless' stuff really wasn't pointless. Kidnapping Orihime divided soul society and removed the Ichigo & friends, Mayuri, Byakuya, Unohana, and Kenpachi from the Karakura fight. Each captain also brought their second in command with them. Ichigo and Unohana wouldn't have even made it back to the fake Karakura if Mayuri hadn't constructed a method of getting back. Tricking Hitsugaya into stabbing Hinamori? Hitsugaya went berserk and briefly became a threat to everyone, it would've been worse if he lost control of his bankai. One thing to remember is that Aizen actually didn't overpower everyone. He had safeguards in place to deal with everyone, but in truth, he could've lost the fight in Karakura pretty quickly if things hadn't gone to plan. Hell, Yamamoto alone could've dealt with everything early on if he didnt' stick to Shounen style and let everyone split off into skirmishes.

Yes, all the backstabbing he did to allies was pointless. None of that actually made sense besides making the reader dislike him more. One thing it did show was that he became an arrogant asshole directly as a result of his power to deceive people for so long. To the point where he essentially isolated himself in the belief that he was beyond everyone.

Again, with Urahara, you're drastically changing his character to something similar to the fanon manipulative Dumbledore trope. Aizen's disease is a plot device thats been used twice in Naruto canon to depower overpowered characters and both times fell flat. Not to mention that there is already a Bleach Captain with a random disease.

My main problem with the entire idea? You're drastically changing the series from the getgo into something that overuses different tropes and plotlines. Ones that don't really fit the series itself. Your attempts to make things make sense and character decisions to seem rational instead overcomplicate things and make some characters make even less sense. It needs polish, and maybe a reworking of your character's motivations and actions. The changes to Aizen and Urahara in particular do seem more like personal taste/bias than attempts to actually fix things.

And moreso, this is a total Bleach rewrite, not a revision of the Arrancar Arc. It should have its own idea thread.
 

grant

Well-Known Member
#87
Point on the last but as for Aizen/Urahara, you really misread me. Nothing I wrote was to make Urahara evil or Aizen justified (I was planning on showing his crimes in detail in the Arrancar arc). Urahara, in canon, acts like an idiot who doesn't actually do anything that a reasonable person would. Let's look at his actions:

1. Sent Ichigo and company off into SS with barely any information, an idiotic plan and no effort to warn them about the powers of their enemies. For all he knew they might have run into Tousen without Yoruichi, been taken in by his apparent reasonableness and that would have pretty much ended the series right there.

2. Told Orihime she was useless instead of the truth and made no effort to monitor her movements, despite the fact that his stated reason for this was to keep Orihime away from Aizen.

3. In the backstory IIRC he was experimenting on Hollowification for no given reason. Just 'cause.

4. We discover from the flashbacks that he has known about Aizen's powers and his conspiracy with Tousen for a century. We never see anything to suggest that Urahara was actually trying to do anything about it. Even in the final battle with Aizen, the part where you'd assume that Urahara would pull out all the stops for this battle he's been preparing for...we get effectively zip.

5. He left Mayuri as his second in command. Mayuri. Even if Mayuri technically hadn't done anything that we know of that seems fairly hasty.

So my response to 1 was to change it to Urahara being forced to agree to help because of a bad situation and trying to make it succeed, 2 was changed to Urahara being genuinely afraid that Orihime was either going to be kidnapped by some faction or actually go insane (mentioned mental problems earlier) and be a threat to all three worlds, 3 was changed to wanting to prevent a massacre of the sort he had to accept 300 years ago, 4 was changed to Urahara actively trying to build a force to fight Aizen and 5...he's still not a good judge of character.

In other words what you're interpreting as me bashing Urahara is actually me trying to make Urahara smarter and more reasonable*. Sure he's dark and manipulative, but that's because the situation is a very bad one that's calling for dark and manipulative action. In terms of actions really the worst he did was experiment on the souls in the backstory, something in the now-never-to-be-summarized Arancar arc he would have tried to blow himself and Aizen up over.

On Aizen, in canon considering the damage his forces took from Team Orihime's attack you would expect him to actually want to destroy the attacking force before he went to fight the Shinigami. Instead he just left Ulquiorra and a few idiots with predictable results. Not to mention there was no way he could have actually predicted that SS would react as they did.

Hitsugaya, well Hitsugaya wasn't a threat to Aizen. Ever. The only ones who ever seemed to be threats to him might have been Ichigo, Shinji (maybe), Urahara and Yamamoto. But instead of using his illusion powers to cut through everyone as he clearly is capable of doing he just sits there and watches his forces die off before he finishes the job for his enemies and then pointlessly gets a girl stabbed. And this is not a character who is shown as being completely sadistic and short sighted (at least in dialogue). This is a character who is supposed to have planned Ichigo's entire life.

So with Aizen I was actually trying to make him less of an informed ability genius and more a cunning man who makes mistakes.

*Ironic really.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
#88
grant said:
Point on the last but as for Aizen/Urahara, you really misread me. Nothing I wrote was to make Urahara evil or Aizen justified (I was planning on showing his crimes in detail in the Arrancar arc). Urahara, in canon, acts like an idiot who doesn't actually do anything that a reasonable person would. Let's look at his actions:

1. Sent Ichigo and company off into SS with barely any information, an idiotic plan and no effort to warn them about the powers of their enemies. For all he knew they might have run into Tousen without Yoruichi, been taken in by his apparent reasonableness and that would have pretty much ended the series right there.

2. Told Orihime she was useless instead of the truth and made no effort to monitor her movements, despite the fact that his stated reason for this was to keep Orihime away from Aizen.

3. In the backstory IIRC he was experimenting on Hollowification for no given reason. Just 'cause.

4. We discover from the flashbacks that he has known about Aizen's powers and his conspiracy with Tousen for a century. We never see anything to suggest that Urahara was actually trying to do anything about it. Even in the final battle with Aizen, the part where you'd assume that Urahara would pull out all the stops for this battle he's been preparing for...we get effectively zip.

5. He left Mayuri as his second in command. Mayuri. Even if Mayuri technically hadn't done anything that we know of that seems fairly hasty.

So my response to 1 was to change it to Urahara being forced to agree to help because of a bad situation and trying to make it succeed, 2 was changed to Urahara being genuinely afraid that Orihime was either going to be kidnapped by some faction or actually go insane (mentioned mental problems earlier) and be a threat to all three worlds, 3 was changed to wanting to prevent a massacre of the sort he had to accept 300 years ago, 4 was changed to Urahara actively trying to build a force to fight Aizen and 5...he's still not a good judge of character.

In other words what you're interpreting as me bashing Urahara is actually me trying to make Urahara smarter and more reasonable*. Sure he's dark and manipulative, but that's because the situation is a very bad one that's calling for dark and manipulative action. In terms of actions really the worst he did was experiment on the souls in the backstory, something in the now-never-to-be-summarized Arancar arc he would have tried to blow himself and Aizen up over.

On Aizen, in canon considering the damage his forces took from Team Orihime's attack you would expect him to actually want to destroy the attacking force before he went to fight the Shinigami. Instead he just left Ulquiorra and a few idiots with predictable results. Not to mention there was no way he could have actually predicted that SS would react as they did.

Hitsugaya, well Hitsugaya wasn't a threat to Aizen. Ever. The only ones who ever seemed to be threats to him might have been Ichigo, Shinji (maybe), Urahara and Yamamoto. But instead of using his illusion powers to cut through everyone as he clearly is capable of doing he just sits there and watches his forces die off before he finishes the job for his enemies and then pointlessly gets a girl stabbed. And this is not a character who is shown as being completely sadistic and short sighted (at least in dialogue). This is a character who is supposed to have planned Ichigo's entire life.

So with Aizen I was actually trying to make him less of an informed ability genius and more a cunning man who makes mistakes.

*Ironic really.
I get that you're trying to make Urahara seem smarter and more reasonable. What I'm saying is that what you have right now does not do so.

They did run into Gin early on. They're just lucky enough that he's easy going and planning on killing Aizen. Tousen's personality is actually less reasonable than many others when you note how he acts after the betrayal. He is a real stickler for the justice and rules after all.

Experimenting on hollowfication was something Aizen did, not Urahara. Both of them developed a hogyoku around the same time for entirely different reasons. It isn't actually stated how the hogyoku are made, just that Aizen empowered his using thousands of souls forcibly taken from both shinigami and residents of Rukongai. It should be noted that both hogyoku are never fully awake, and that Aizen only nudges them awake for a moment to make Arrancar. Also, this brief awakening actually weakens the hogyoku and increases the length of its dormancy.

What Urahara's did with his hogyoku was stabilize the captains that Aizen experimented upon. Urahara actually seemed to have made his hogyoku just out of scientific curiosity because he never actually used it until he had to.

Urahara was sorta busy dealing with other Arrancar when Orihime was kidnapped.

Aizen's plan during the Arrancar arc was to split up Soul Society's forces using the Arrancar as canon fodder. His entire army existed solely as a diversion. After kidnapping Orihime, he stayed in HM long enough for SS to commit half their forces to aiding Ichigo and then moved to confront the ones in Fake Karakura. Even in Fake Karakura, Aizen wasn't on the offensive and used Arrancar to heavily damage SS's forces.

If you actually look at the entire arc as Aizen stalling for time so that he can reach beyond his own limits, it makes perfect sense. Everything he did kept people from actually harming him and by the time Isshin managed to push him to the brink of defeat, his powerup was ready. You'll note that he never actually gave himself hollow powers until the hogyoku was fully awakened, at which point he managed to blow past everyone's power.

Also note: Urahara did pull out all the stops against Aizen in Fake Karakura. He's actually the reason Aizen was sealed and powerless shortly after the Final Getsuga. The seal was actually placed on Aizen in the middle of their confrontation but didn't take effect until Ichigo wore him down to the point that the Hogyoku got annoyed. The one time Urahara's bankai is mentioned, its talked about in a way that makes it seem extremely dangerous to everyone around it.


About Hitsugaya.... He is a threat to everyone if he isn't in control. He's got the strongest ice based zanpakuto. Technically his bankai is on the same threat level as Yamamoto's. Both can effect the weather and moisture in all of soul society when activated. The major difference is that Hitsugaya has neither the experience or mastery of his sword that Yamamoto has. It is actually noted that Hitsugaya's bankai is still at an early level, and we see it has improved a good amount between his confrontations with Luppi and Harribel. Imagine if Aizen managed to get Hitsugaya to completely lose control of his bankai. He could flash freeze just about everyone on the battlefield while in a berserk rage. At that point, Aizen was just taking pot shots at everyone and letting them waste time while the Hogyoku awakened.

Mayuri despite being a criminal that was imprisoned in SS's superjail, is still one of soul society's
greatest minds. He's pretty much the complete opposite of Urahara in that he lacks morals of any form. On the plus side, the guy can look at Syazel's squickiness and just yawn before 1-upping him. Plus he's hard to kill, and so are his creations. We're also learning that the biggest example of Mayuri being a bad guy might not be such a clear cut case of good and evil.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#89
Uh no. Mayuri's 'biggest case of evil' had nothing to do with the war and was not justified in any way. The war happened around 1000 years ago, Ishida's grandpa died roughly 5-10 years ago. And keep in mind, he was entirely justified in what he was doing, given he took SPECIAL care not to actually erase those hollows but instead defend people until the shinigami could show up. Mayuri stalled the shinigami just so he could see what makes a quincy tick via horrendous torture despite that.

That case was entirely Mayuri being a psychopath. No ifs ands or buts. :mellow:

Also a few more discrepancies:

Aizen's sheild is notably called Escudo, implying it's a hollow based power (The one he uses for Ichigo is Mil Escudo), so technically speaking he did alter himself prior to the orb activating, though to what extent isn't clear.

Further I'd buy Urahara pulling all the stops if he actually showed up prior to that bullshit. Granted, it was specifically stated that the only reason he got so many openings in on Aizen was because he was being careless due to power, but are you seriously telling me he couldn't have shown up while Aizen was still trapped in the flames to help defeat the espada prior to having to face Aizen directly?

At the very least, he could have let the Vizards ages prior, since they were just waiting around the barrier for Sasikibe to open it. And he apparently had some way in but they didn't, even with Hachi the kido master.

Urahara didn't actually stabilize the Vizards, he just turned them into vizards instead of Hollows because, thanks to the bullshit way the orb works, he WANTED to (Granted this might not have been of his own volition however). They had to stabilize themselves with the same method they made Ichigo go under. They still had inner hollows they needed to deal with after all. Granted they were more stable than they were when turning into straight up hollows, but suffice to say that could have gone better.



Also because this is particularly important:

Urahara could have stopped Rukia from ever being taken and saved everyone from the headache if he'd taken Byakuya and Renji himself. He was standing quite literally right there and had the element of surprise, and Byakuya was under a limiter. He had that shit. His whole plan of action fundamentally makes no sense from the start. :no:
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
#90
~NGD OMEGA~ said:
Uh no. Mayuri's 'biggest case of evil' had nothing to do with the war and was not justified in any way. The war happened around 1000 years ago, Ishida's grandpa died roughly 5-10 years ago. And keep in mind, he was entirely justified in what he was doing, given he took SPECIAL care not to actually erase those hollows but instead defend people until the shinigami could show up. Mayuri stalled the shinigami just so he could see what makes a quincy tick via horrendous torture despite that.

That case was entirely Mayuri being a psychopath. No ifs ands or buts. :mellow:

Also a few more discrepancies:

Aizen's sheild is notably called Escudo, implying it's a hollow based power (The one he uses for Ichigo is Mil Escudo), so technically speaking he did alter himself prior to the orb activating, though to what extent isn't clear.

Further I'd buy Urahara pulling all the stops if he actually showed up prior to that bullshit. Granted, it was specifically stated that the only reason he got so many openings in on Aizen was because he was being careless due to power, but are you seriously telling me he couldn't have shown up while Aizen was still trapped in the flames to help defeat the espada prior to having to face Aizen directly?

At the very least, he could have let the Vizards ages prior, since they were just waiting around the barrier for Sasikibe to open it. And he apparently had some way in but they didn't, even with Hachi the kido master.

Urahara didn't actually stabilize the Vizards, he just turned them into vizards instead of Hollows because, thanks to the bullshit way the orb works, he WANTED to (Granted this might not have been of his own volition however). They had to stabilize themselves with the same method they made Ichigo go under. They still had inner hollows they needed to deal with after all. Granted they were more stable than they were when turning into straight up hollows, but suffice to say that could have gone better.



Also because this is particularly important:

Urahara could have stopped Rukia from ever being taken and saved everyone from the headache if he'd taken Byakuya and Renji himself. He was standing quite literally right there and had the element of surprise, and Byakuya was under a limiter. He had that shit. His whole plan of action fundamentally makes no sense from the start. :no:
Yeah I was wrong on the Mayuri thing.

Aizen could have simply given the shield a spanish name. He did do that with the Espada.

Also Urahara is never on time. He's either late or just in time to prevent someone getting killed. Its something that is literally written into his character consistently.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#91
Fair enough I suppose, I did find it odd that the random barrier would be a hollow thing. I mean beyond Hierro, the only thing they have remotely similar to that is Negacion, and that ability in itself doesn't even make sense.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#92
I thought it had something to do with Aizen's sense of aesthetics; giving a Spanish name because he had openly taken the role of the Espada's leader and/or because he was planning to use it against his former comrades. Basically just to emphasis the fact that he wasn't one of them anymore.

Urahara could have stopped Rukia from ever being taken and saved everyone from the headache if he'd taken Byakuya and Renji himself. He was standing quite literally right there and had the element of surprise, and Byakuya was under a limiter. He had that shit. His whole plan of action fundamentally makes no sense from the start. :no:
A part of me agrees with you but if Urahara had intervened then SS would quickly learn that a captain and lieutenant had been taken out in Karakura. There's various ways that could go down but ultimately it could cause just as many problems as letting Rukia get taken.
 

grant

Well-Known Member
#93
Honestly I fail to see how things could have possibly been any worse than allowing Aizen to effectively take possession of the object he's been searching for.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#94
You don't see how having Gotei's hostile attention brought onto Karakura Town could make things turn out worse? Several tragedies could result from that and Rukia's impending execution would only be one of them.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
#95
grant said:
Honestly I fail to see how things could have possibly been any worse than allowing Aizen to effectively take possession of the object he's been searching for.
Aizen had complete control of Soul Society's government at that point. Defeating Byakuya and Renji with limiters is one thing. Dealing with the results afterwards is what would be bad. The reprisal from a known exile seeming to randomly attack a captain would likely end up with Ichigo and crew either dead, or at the non-existent mercy of Mayuri.

Also note: Aizen already had a hogyoku. His public reveal upon getting Urahara's actually cleared Urahara's name from the incident 100 years prior. At the same time, it united Aizen's opposition and gave him total control of when and where the conflicts would occur from both 'factions. Even worse for SS and Urahara, he had all the info about them, and they really didn't know anything about him. They literally couldn't rely on attacking him in Hueco Mundo because they had no intel.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#96
Aizen having another orb is BS better left aside for another time, I could go into entire volumes why that bullshit doesn't make any damn sense but that's best left as is for now.

Regardless, basic jist is Urahara let that shit happen when he had full control of the situation. Even presuming a known exile attacking them is an issue, keep in mind they have no idea where he is/was and all Urahara needs is time. Seriously, once the gigai thing completes, he effectively wins and Aizen doesn't get the thing he made such a massive convoluted plan to get. Aizen literally could not have done anything if he could not get his mitts on Rukia, and Urahara's evaded SS for literally 100 years.

Even presuming revealing himself is an issue, nab Rukia before they track her down and run. The conditions for his victory could not have been easier, just evade SS until the gigai completes its business. Christ this is a guy who literally invented a reiatsu suppressing cloak just to sneak out to check up on shenanigans, I don't think he could have had better odds.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#97
I think it would depend on how prepared Aizen is after he's discovered Rukia's location. He already had a plan for Byakuya successfully bringing Rukia back so it would make sense for him to have one if he doesn't. Best case scenario (from a certain point of view) is that Urahara's escapes and Rukia becomes human, probably getting mindwiped afterwards. Worst case scenario is that Aizen takes action to ensure Rukia's capture and everyone else just gets murdered.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#98
If that's a concern than take better care in hiding Rukia from the start. Guy specifically set Ichigo up for that menos confrontation which helped them find her.

Basic point is there are countless better ways to have gone about it other than giving Aizen exactly what he wants. Even if there's some risk involved any plan is better than 'let the enemy win with no resistance whatsoever and then make a pitiful haphazard attempt to fix things afterward that was doomed to failure from the start and it was a miracle that it even got as far as it did in the first place'.

That plan has ALL the risk involved. Seriously Aizen could just as easily have had them killed off anyway even in this scenario since they're escaped convicts. All he needed to do was point at them and say 'hey, there they are!'.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
#99
~NGD OMEGA~ said:
If that's a concern than take better care in hiding Rukia from the start. Guy specifically set Ichigo up for that menos confrontation which helped them find her.

Basic point is there are countless better ways to have gone about it other than giving Aizen exactly what he wants. Even if there's some risk involved any plan is better than 'let the enemy win with no resistance whatsoever and then make a pitiful haphazard attempt to fix things afterward that was doomed to failure from the start and it was a miracle that it even got as far as it did in the first place'.

That plan has ALL the risk involved. Seriously Aizen could just as easily have had them killed off anyway even in this scenario since they're escaped convicts. All he needed to do was point at them and say 'hey, there they are!'.
Urahara wasn't even sure the Rukia thing would work. I don't think it was established how long it'd take for it to work either.

As for why Aizen needed Urahara's Hogyoku... I imagine it was to speed things up. He did waste a lot of his own Hogyoku's power making the Arrancar. It is likely that Aizen's hogyoku was either flawed or incomplete given that he actually had to feed his a ton of souls. Merging it with Urahara's was probably the only way to ensure that he got what he wanted.

It also kept Urahara from boosting every other captain with hollow power. A Vizard Kenpachi would ruin everyone's day. Particularly if he ended up with regeneration.
 

Knyght

The Collector
IIRC, it was actually Rukia appearing on the Don Kanonji show that led to her discovery. A scientist dude was monitoring the HW and saw her special gigai.

Vizard Kenpachi would be an ungodly nightmare. Given his personality he'd probably be better at it than everyone else.
 
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