Bleach [Bleach]Random ideas topic

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

Oh right, I forgot the order of the fights because I fucking hated that entire arc and wish I could forget it, sorry. That does technically help my point more though, since he died right after and therefore it could have just been temporary shit like Ulq did.

On the regen, that's basically exactly what I was trying to say, that it's clearly a different ability, so we can't classify it's limits by what Hollows regen can and can't restore, because it's obviously not the same damn thing. High Speed Regen I would just put down to him trying to attribute what he sees to what he knows. It did regenerate him and it did it at high speed (if you can even call instant high speed). Plus I may have to go back and look, but I seem to recall him phrasing it as a question.
 
Random ideas topic

Actually it doesn't help your point, since we literally saw the organs heal. The injury he suffered first showcased the blasted through intestines also regenerating as the injury closed up, so we know Wonderwiess can heal those.

But regardless I can agree with that much. But by extension, if Ichigo's head is gone, he can't use that technique, meaning we bring this entire thing full circle. Without growing his magical long hair, he has no means to restore what he lost. Which in this case was the very head supporting that beautiful mane of hair that sadly just got vaporized. :snigger:
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

~NGD OMEGA~ said:
I can agree with that much. But by extension, if Ichigo's head is gone, he can't use that technique, meaning we bring this entire thing full circle. Without growing his magical long hair, he has no means to restore what he lost. Which in this case was the very head supporting that beautiful mane of hair that sadly just got vaporized.á :snigger:
Correlation =/= Causation. It could simply have been that the function that restored his body restored his hair to it's former state. Or maybe magical fairies are doing it for shits and giggles.

Basically we can make up anything in how it works because we don't know shit and Kubo probably made it up on the spot. Maybe if you destroy his head he becomes butterfly Ichigo.
 
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Actually not quite correct, because literally what happened was the extra bits of hair on his head ripped off and floated up into that halo thing, blasted his chest, and then restored it to his former state. Meaning without the very same hair, he can't restore his head via the same technique. And by extension, he needs his head for that hair to even be there in the first place and in turn to activate the form. To assume beyond that requires skipping several very carefully showcased steps to the technique happening at all.

After all, we can't blindly assume he can just randomly activate the halo out of nothing, because that's not what happened at all. :snigger:
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

~NGD OMEGA~ said:
After all, we can't blindly assume he can just randomly activate the halo out of nothing
We really really can, since he was unconscious when it happened. I could just as easily assume any part of his body or clothes would work (since both are spiritual particles created of his soul), or that the halo forming by his power while removing the previously created hair simply looks like that. It's not like the activation itself is necessarily either the halo or the hair, we don't actually know what the power or instigator is in this equation is at all. We have absolutely nothing on this technique or ability at all.

Again, magical fairies, shits and giggles.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

~NGD OMEGA~ said:
Actually it doesn't help your point, since we literally saw the organs heal. The injury he suffered first showcased the blasted through intestines also regenerating as the injury closed up, so we know Wonderwiess can heal those.

But regardless I can agree with that much. But by extension, if Ichigo's head is gone, he can't use that technique, meaning we bring this entire thing full circle. Without growing his magical long hair, he has no means to restore what he lost. Which in this case was the very head supporting that beautiful mane of hair that sadly just got vaporized.? :snigger:
Ichigo's miracle healing always happens when he's not in hollow form. He's also never conscious until immediately after the healing. When he was a berserk super-hollow, there actually wasn't any healing done. It only happened Ulq knocked him back to normal by apparently destabilizing his Cero so it blew up in his face and destroyed his mask. Ulq also notes that Ichigo is dead again right before the miracle "high speed regeneration".

As for the organs...
Wonderweiss can be considered an exception to the rules as well since Aizen specifically engineered him.
Allon is likely an exception because he's some kind of semi-sentient mass of power and rage formed by three Arrancar doing a captain planet imitation. We've also seen Allon die and get replaced at least once.
Syazel is iffy. He's regenerated past the norm via external means (SCIENCE!) and via his release being based on a parasite organism. He's also the only guy to call a stop to combat so he can change his clothes, which has nothing to do with anything but was still amusing.



So Bleach has established is that:

Science can be used to bypass fatal wounds. -Example: Mayuri and Syazel

Orihime can undo death as long as something isn't preventing her reiatsu from having an effect.

Hollow anatomy varies enough that the organ rule only seems to apply to Arrancar and only if their release doesn't specifically negate said rule. Example: Syazel, Aaroniero

Ichigo is a freak of nature who displays both typical hollow healing while in hollow form, and showy magical instantaneous wtf hollow healing that has everyone jawdropping and only comes into effect when he's clinically dead.

Edit: Also, Ichigo's hair apparently grows when he's in his higher forms for some reason.
I'm inclined to believe that its just his power manifesting in a physical manner. Similar to how his bankai coat is simply his power.
That circular lightshow was essentially his power gathering itself up and slamming down into him for an instant fix. Which wouldn't actually require a head to happen if its being done without any sort of control on his part.
 
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We really really can, since he was unconscious when it happened. I could just as easily assume any part of his body or clothes would work (since both are spiritual particles created of his soul), or that the halo forming by his power while removing the previously created hair simply looks like that. It's not like the activation itself is necessarily either the halo or the hair, we don't actually know what the power or instigator is in this equation is at all. We have absolutely nothing on this technique or ability at all.

Again, magical fairies, shits and giggles.
No, that's the opposite of how it works.

If someone showcases a very deliberate pattern to do something like a technique, it's always going to have to be assumed that any attempts to do the same thing again requires you to take the same steps to recreate it until the author proves otherwise later down the line.

One example of this in action is the assumption that all Ceros have to be charged, meaning you can't just instantly fire it whenever you want (Unless the person in question, Ie: Starrk, proves otherwise). More over every cero ever fired has always been locked in a single direction once it has started charging, meaning that's likely a facet of it too. We can't assume beyond this without someone showing us otherwise, and moreover proving it's not something they specialize in (Like Starrk) and is actually a general technique that can be done in any given situation, but just hasn't been show until now.

That's just common sense. It helps to rectify the simple logic behind why people do such arbitrary things to utilize something, like in this case why doesn't everyone fire ceros instantly or change its direction while charging since that would be obscenely useful.

To use a more general example of this concept in work, the initial showcasing of Byakuya's bankai is activated via dropping his sealed sword into the ground to summon the wall of blades leading to the release of his sword's bankai state. From the procedure there you have to assume that he cannot activate his bankai without doing that same procedure, meaning it can't be done without his sword, while moving, or in shikai until he proves otherwise in a subsequent showcase of the technique.

Recently Byakuya has indeed proven that he can summon his bankai while in motion, against Yammi, so that's another facet we can put on the table, because he has proven he can do it. More recently, it has been showcased that he literally cannot summon his bankai without all the pieces of his sword, which solidifies one of the other assumptions already in place around his bankai, and exposes a rather fatal weakness that can be exploited with the right ability.

Mind you there's a bit of common sense logic applied to this way of approaching things too, meaning you can't blindly assume utterly arbitrary limitations that have no basis, like say since Byakuya's never shown using his bankai at night he can't or whatever. You do however have to take the deliberate things at face value.

Sometimes admittedly it's hard to know what is deliberate or not in certain situations admittedly, which is where this kind of logic starts to get very murky. Gin's bankai for example is somewhat of a confusing mess because there's a sound argument to be made that the poison doesn't activate without him uttering the kill command and touching the wound in question.

Now despite the logic leap of why poison would even need a goddamn command to activate, it's VERY hard to argue against it with the fact that the text bubble with the command in question is VERY deliberately different with a very special kind of quote text around the command itself. That alone ALWAYS signifies some kind of importance in the words beyond just 'dramatic effect' to say the least.

Nailing down whether or not he has to touch the wound is harder, but considering he literally reached out to touch a guy who could easily tear his arm off if he wasn't standing still like a moron, that's got some basis behind it too. Not much admittedly, but there's something that can be argued there. I could easily see it either way depending how stupid Kubo want's to be about it, and considering how utterly moronic Deicide was, that'd be VERY.

However in this specific case in question , it's very hard to argue against the fact that it's very deliberately a mass of hair clearly going up into a halo of light and firing it down to heal a guy. You can't argue 'dramatic effect' or the like with that, because it is SO utterly arbitrary that it can't be anything BUT important. You literally cannot assume beyond this without actual evidence to support that logic, otherwise that's just plain silly. :rolleyes:

Which isn't to say there can't be some arbitrary facet to it that expands it's utility to cases where the hair is not available, but per canon we can't automatically assume it does because there is NO logical basis behind such an assumption. After all it outright requires you to go into full on pulling theories out of your ass territory to explain how such an utterly arbitrary ability works and why it should be able to work in any given situation outside the exact same scenario where it did actually work.



Keep in mind however the above is just in terms of arguing Canon. Fic wise you can literally do whatever the hell you want (Though without backing your shit up and clarifying your assumptions you best prepared to be argued on whether or not it's stupid), but in terms of hard canon the general line of though it is always going to be "If they haven't shown they can do it, they can't" in cases where it makes logical sense.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

Covered the hair thing in an edit to my previous post but considering that the hair just randomly grew when he took the hollow form, it all comes down to Ichigo's power and how it manifests itself. Its not like missing a head will just make his power stop existing either.


Then again if you consider that Ichigo's hollow form in Vizard training had reptilian traits, his regeneration then was likely based on reptiles in general. No idea what to liken his final hollow form to though. Nor what to consider the visual evolution of his mask to mean.
 
Random ideas topic

Actually yes it would. All things are directly said to definitively die with their head off and their power vanishes because of that (though there are some special cases, but usually these are outside variables). That's quite simply, how it works. People have been quite literally been mistaken for dead simply because their power took a massive dive in a fight, till they realized a tiny speck remained, meaning they were still barely alive.

Thus we can definitively say if you die your power vanishes, and unless proven otherwise anything in Bleach losing their head, save Aizen because bullshit and Allon because he's a beast, automatically means they die.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

~NGD OMEGA~ said:
Actually yes it would. All things are directly said to definitively die with their head off and their power vanishes because of that (though there are some special cases, but usually these are outside variables). That's quite simply, how it works. People have been quite literally been mistaken for dead simply because their power took a massive dive in a fight, till they realized a tiny speck remained, meaning they were still barely alive.

Thus we can definitively say if you die your power vanishes, and unless proven otherwise anything in Bleach losing their head, save Aizen because bullshit and Allon because he's a beast, automatically means they die.
You do realize that Aizen was given as an exception and Ichigo already surpassed him in every way, except long term planning, right?
Hell, we currently don't even know what to consider Ichigo anymore. The only thing he isn't right now is a Quincy and even that can change. :headbanger:
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
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Holy crap, I go to exercise for a few hours and you guys run up twenty-ish posts (and bury my last idea in all your posts).

As far as Ichigo goes, I am liable to say that it is because he is part-Hollow. Presumably if a Hollow does not have its mask broken, cut for purification or it does not outright disintegrate, it can still regenerate. So even if Ichigo appeared dead, he could still get up as long as his body still existed. And do remember he was in Hueco Mundo at the time, which is supposed to have a spiritually-dense atmosphere or something like that.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

seitora said:
Holy crap, I go to exercise for a few hours and you guys run up twenty-ish posts (and bury my last idea in all your posts).

As far as Ichigo goes, I am liable to say that it is because he is part-Hollow. Presumably if a Hollow does not have its mask broken, cut for purification or it does not outright disintegrate, it can still regenerate. So even if Ichigo appeared dead, he could still get up as long as his body still existed. And do remember he was in Hueco Mundo at the time, which is supposed to have a spiritually-dense atmosphere or something like that.
Ichigo's miracle healing always happens after his mask is broken. That is actually how Ulquiorra 'won' the fight. He then declared Ichigo dead right before the healing happened.

You know, Ichigo's physical body still being alive has the potential to be a hilarious loophole.

"Yeah you killed me... but I never actually died in the first place so you killed the wrong me."
 
Random ideas topic

shinzero01 said:
You do realize that Aizen was given as an exception and Ichigo already surpassed him in every way, except long term planning, right?
Hell, we currently don't even know what to consider Ichigo anymore. The only thing he isn't right now is a Quincy and even that can change. :headbanger:
Yeah every way... except Immortality. Notably that was why he in actuality lost that fight, since immediately at the end the only one capable of fighting was Aizen, who just barely stalled long enough for the seal to activate. For all Ichigo was above him, his best shot couldn't kill Aizen because for some utterly stupid reason, Aizen was Immortal, while had the seal not taken effect then, Ichigo would have very much been dead by Aizen's hands.

Ichigo didn't have that little loophole to bank on. Just because he was definitively stronger doesn't mean he was immortal. He was just next to impossible to kill via conventional means because of that strength, but he could still very much DIE if a strong enough attack came along even in that ultimate state. :snigger:
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
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That was Zangetsu's fault. Ichigo could have just hacked away until the orb gave up.
 

shinzero01

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

~NGD OMEGA~ said:
shinzero01 said:
You do realize that Aizen was given as an exception and Ichigo already surpassed him in every way, except long term planning, right?
Hell, we currently don't even know what to consider Ichigo anymore. The only thing he isn't right now is a Quincy and even that can change. :headbanger:
Yeah every way... except Immortality. Notably that was why he in actuality lost that fight, since immediately at the end the only one capable of fighting was Aizen, who just barely stalled long enough for the seal to activate. For all Ichigo was above him, his best shot couldn't kill Aizen because for some utterly stupid reason, Aizen was Immortal, while had the seal not taken effect then, Ichigo would have very much been dead by Aizen's hands.

Ichigo didn't have that little loophole to bank on. Just because he was definitively stronger doesn't mean he was immortal. He was just next to impossible to kill via conventional means because of that strength, but he could still very much DIE if a strong enough attack came along even in that ultimate state. :snigger:
Wasn't Aizen rendered pretty much powerless before the seal? I thought the Orb said "fuck this" and went back to dormancy, leaving Aizen immortal but useless.

Woulda been nice for Ichigo to have a fist fight with Aizen before the random screaming and passing out... Then again the whole Ichigo losing his powers thing was largely unneeded.
 
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Nah, not powerless. He was losing power sure, but he had significantly more in the tank than Ichigo did at that point. Had the seal not activated, Aizen would have won no matter what went down, since Ichigo couldn't even stand and even if Aizen waited till all his power vanished, all he'd need to do was choke him to death. And even if Ichigo even could get up, Aizen couldn't be killed no matter what. :snigger:

Though mind you, the Immortality tripe was bullshit no matter how you slice it, almost as much as Aizen WANTING to lose his power being the reason the orb took it away. Stealing Starrk's backstory was just the shit icing on the ass cake. :no:
 

Knyght

The Collector
Random ideas topic

So I go to sleep and we get a huge discussion about...regen? Well, okay. :huh:

Muramasa idea
That would seriously ruin everyone's day. Could be interesting if Ichigo's the only one unaffected since he's working on his bankai in secret or the Muramasa hypnotism occurs whilst this is happening.

Didn't come up with much but a few things I brainstormed were Aizen's dead body illusion being cancelled which reveals there's some fuckery going on early and Ginrei pops up and clashes with Byakuya about this Rukia business.

Random Idea: What if Aizen incorporated <a href='http://images.wikia.com/bleach/es/images/a/a9/Renji,_Kira_y_Hinamori_en_sus_a%C3%B1os_en_la_academia.jpg' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>these three</a> into his plans more actively? Whilst he used Kira and Hinamori to help disguise his plans, it felt like he could have done a lot more with them than simply try to have them kill each other. It would have been interesting with Renji in particular if Aizen had helped pushed him to greater heights before canon to use him for his own gain.

If the three of them were actually Aizen's agents then things could have gone done a lot differently in the SS arc.
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

shinzero01 said:
~NGD OMEGA~ said:
shinzero01 said:
You do realize that Aizen was given as an exception and Ichigo already surpassed him in every way, except long term planning, right?
Hell, we currently don't even know what to consider Ichigo anymore. The only thing he isn't right now is a Quincy and even that can change. :headbanger:
Yeah every way... except Immortality. Notably that was why he in actuality lost that fight, since immediately at the end the only one capable of fighting was Aizen, who just barely stalled long enough for the seal to activate. For all Ichigo was above him, his best shot couldn't kill Aizen because for some utterly stupid reason, Aizen was Immortal, while had the seal not taken effect then, Ichigo would have very much been dead by Aizen's hands.

Ichigo didn't have that little loophole to bank on. Just because he was definitively stronger doesn't mean he was immortal. He was just next to impossible to kill via conventional means because of that strength, but he could still very much DIE if a strong enough attack came along even in that ultimate state. :snigger:
Wasn't Aizen rendered pretty much powerless before the seal? I thought the Orb said "fuck this" and went back to dormancy, leaving Aizen immortal but useless.

Woulda been nice for Ichigo to have a fist fight with Aizen before the random screaming and passing out... Then again the whole Ichigo losing his powers thing was largely unneeded.
You know, it would've been funny if Ichigo and Aizen got into a fist-fight with each other once they both lost their powers, and Ichigo won because he's got more experience in fighting without superpowers, and Aizen's unarmed fighting style is based around the assumption you have Shinigami powers.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
Random ideas topic

knight504 said:
So I go to sleep and we get a huge discussion about...regen? Well, okay. :huh:

Muramasa idea
That would seriously ruin everyone's day. Could be interesting if Ichigo's the only one unaffected since he's working on his bankai in secret or the Muramasa hypnotism occurs whilst this is happening.

Didn't come up with much but a few things I brainstormed were Aizen's dead body illusion being cancelled which reveals there's some fuckery going on early and Ginrei pops up and clashes with Byakuya about this Rukia business.
There's also the possibility/probability that if severing Kyouka Suigetsu breaks the illusion that Aizen could attempt to pass off the Council 46 as being killed by somebody under Muramasa's influence, right after he gets done explaining why he faked his own death :evil2:
 

Knyght

The Collector
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He'd probably spin it so that he faked his death to help protect SS due to him being suspicious of Muramasa/the Rukia execution.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
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I like the idea that Ginrei would be against Rukia's execution. At the very least it sends the message that the Kuchiki don't have any real power.
 
Random ideas topic

Weird thought I cooked up. In the later part of Deicide, one of the countless things that was implied but never expanded on was the fact that Aizen was planning on Ichigo using the Dangai to try and was going to deliberately kill his friends to piss him off and make sure Ichigo fought him at full power.

This was never explained because that arc was utter shit, but the general assumption is that he intended to eat Ichigo or his power to get even stronger in order to be able to take on the king.

Talk in another thread actually fueled a sudden thought in regards to this. Let's say via whatever plot developments or rewriting of deicide you deem appropriate (Which likely Nix Mugetsu altogether), he does nom Ichigo's power that he specifically set the situation up so they'd grow to that point.

Only then things go horribly wrong, because this was Urahara's gambit all along. Urahara didn't spend 100 years developing a handful of kido he knew wouldn't work against Aizen unless he just happened to lose his powers because bullshit, but instead trying to figure out a way to destroy the Orb and all others like it once and for all.

Unfortunately even incomplete the thing is impossible to destroy, but he did come up with a means to destabilize it by introducing steadily more unstable orbs into its formation until the thing becomes too volatile to keep its form and just destroys itself. Only catch is the only way to introduce an orb unstable enough to destroy it requires getting one to grow to such an incredibly unstable point, which requires a vessel.

And oh hey, his buddy Isshin was about to have a nice baby boy.

Basic point is all the developments Urahara put him through was to not only make Ichigo stronger, but also make the orb he'd fused him with more and more unstable. He set up the entire thing with Rukia to get her to pass her powers unto him, he took advantage of the menos scenario so Ichigo's powers would warp under the onslaught of such a powerful enemy, he let Byakuya destroy Rukia's powers in him to allow them to start from zero under HIS terms. And then he made sure Ichigo regained his powers while his entire inner world was being destroyed, which at the same time planted a hollow power in him to muck up the works even further down the line.

Even the Bankai training was done with his device, via a method that only served to warp the dormant orb even more because of the instability caused by forcibly causing a Zanpakuto to manifest. Ironically because of the orb he developed quickly throughout Soul Society, but because of how Unstable it had become thanks to all those developments, it was also the cause of his massive fluctuations throughout HM and thus the reason why he was so garbage in that arc by comparison.

And now that exceedingly unstable orb is fused with Aizen's and corrupts his to the point where in the subsequent battle they destroy themselves along with him.




Though ultimately other than rewriting the Deicide arc to be less garbage and making Urahara more conniving and less of a moron, the only real difference this serves now Ichigo starts off the Fullbring arc once again without his powers and with a more legitimate reason to distrust Urahara. Probably not worth much going in admittedly. :hmm:

Oh wait, it also kills Aizen while finally shutting him by showing off someone who planned things out better than he did, so I suppose that's one good purpose is serves. :snigger:
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
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I've always wondered why people don't make Urahara more of a genius mastermind.

I mean, the guy's smart, did the whole Research Institute thing, probably better at inventing stuff than Mayuri, and had a hundred years after being banished from Soul Society to plan. Aizen outfoxed him once, he's not going to do it again.

Edit: also, Aizen WAS outplanned by Gin, but LOLNO
 

Knyght

The Collector
Random ideas topic

That's definite one-shot material. It'd show that Urahara a genius, Aizen's finally been outplanned and Ichigo was just a really powerful weapon.

You could probably throw Gin in there so he's still gets do his backstabbed thing and be the one of ultimately destroys the unstable orb. Depends on whether you like Gin or not since him failing to do anything meaningful against Aizen is kind of depressing.

EDIT: Though he was cool with Ichigo finishing the job, so maybe not.

Idea: When Mayuri received the order terminate all of the mod souls from the Central 46, he was livid. Having to destroy his own work due to ethical reasons offended his pride. Instead of simply giving into his demands, he created a number of fake capsules and destroyed them instead whilst putting the real mod souls into storage. Kon was lost during this process and never discovered what really happened.

During the war was Aizen, Mayuri was killed and Urahara returned as head of the science division. He discovers the stored mod souls and taking advantage of certain changes within Soul Society, he put forward a new idea using them.

The new version of Project Spearhead is intended to use gigai as the host of these mod souls who would then be stationed within the human world to act as a rapid response team. Their enhanced abilities would put them on equal footing with most hollows and would be supplied with asauchi to purify the hollows they fight.

The first group of mod souls are stationed in Karakura Town with Ichigo being put in command on Soul SocietyÆs behalf.
 
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That reminds me of my own Mod Soul concept, requiring a group of rouge mod souls who managed to escape during the initial tests of the technology and took several of their own kind with them when they learned of what was to happen to them.

Outright required one of them to have a warp skill or something along those lines for the concept to even begin to work in theory, but canonically (in the anime anyway) Nova/Noba's ability is exactly that so we already have a foot to stand on. Whether or not the skill could be used in Pill form to help make the plot make even more sense is up to interpretation I suppose.

Say Noba, desperate to survive, just barely managed to warp out him and everyone around him before he was destroyed. Then now aware that he could, he used it to nab a nearby gigai to actually GTFO.

Now these rouge mod souls are in need of bodies for the number of imobile pills they did manage to save. Which leads them to raiding cemetaries. Specifically the one Ichigo goes to. And now one of them is walking around in his Mom's stolen body. Zombie plot agogo. :rofl:

Could be quite the thinking plot too considering the Mod souls have quite a leg to stand on for sympathy, normally being trapped and immobile, waiting to die while in need of a body to even be able to do anything at all. Plus we can get Kon up in here which is always a plus.

Also requires you to assume Ichigo's mom was buried and not cremated, which I admit I'm not too clear on culture wise. I can roll with it myself but might not be up for the nitpicky. :huh.:
 
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