Complaints about the TSAB

[Rising Dragon]

They can't find a cure if they don't experiment, so yes, you're basically proposing they study and experiment on her to free her from the Book. Which, as evidence points to, will more than likely just cause the Book to take control and cause a disaster. Again.

Seriously, your proposed actions and taking the moral high ground are even more flimsy than Graham's.

 

[PCHeintz72]

IIRC Fate and Nanoha regularly exchanged video letters. How exactly could Nanoha have pressed charges, anyway?

Video letters does not equal free movement and actual interaction.

My point was Nanoha would never have pressed charges. But IMHO she would be the only one truly with a case against her.

 

[Rising Dragon]

She also physically assaulted one of the pets at the Tsukimura household, so you can hold that up as animal cruelty, and it's just splitting hairs at this point.

 

[PCHeintz72]

They can't find a cure if they don't experiment, so yes, you're basically proposing they study and experiment on her to free her from the Book. Which, as evidence points to, will more than likely just cause the Book to take control and cause a disaster. Again.

Seriously, your proposed actions and taking the moral high ground are even more flimsy than Graham's.

I view that thing as a type of disease or cancer... as such, like many diseases, there is not a instant cure all of 'take two pills and call in the morning.'

We have plenty of those in real life... AIDS, cancer, diabetes, CLL, countless others...

What I am proposing is no different that those researchers are trying to do ... find a cure for the betterment of the patient, in this case a 9 year old girl...

Did I say it would be fun and roses... did I say a guaranteed cure, not at all... but that is not the same as what you are describing.

It would also have been an agreed upon action by a full government, and keeping the victim, in the know.

Not the actions of a lone man condemning her to an eternity of non-existence.

Oh... and forgot to comment on this one.

Yuuno is an archaelogist. It is his job to unearth these relics and take them in for study and safekeeping, and exploring the past and such. Yes, there is a danger with dealing with Lost Logia, but it is not always such--not every Lost Logia is an artifact of doom. The auction in StrikerS that he attended? Those were for safe Lost Logia.

My wanting Yuuno punished is not specifically for his actions in acquiring the shards, or even really losing them. It is for his actions on earth...

She also physically assaulted one of the pets at the Tsukimura household, so you can hold that up as animal cruelty, and it's just splitting hairs at this point.

Heh... I actually forgot about that.

 

[Rising Dragon]

I view that thing as a type of disease or cancer... as such, like many diseases, there is not a instant cure all of 'take to pills and call in the morning.'

We have plenty of those in real life... AIDS, cancer, diabetes, CLL, countless others...

What I am proposing is no different that those researchers are trying to do ... find a cure for the betterment of the patient, in this case a 9 year old girl...

Did I say it would be fun and roses... did I say a guaranteed cure, not at all... but that is not the same as what you are describing.

AIDs, cancer, diabetes, and CLL don't risk the destruction of the entire planet and the loss of lives of everyone on them. It's not the same. It is not the study of a disease here--you are experimenting, essentially, on disarming the mother of all timebombs, and the wrong action will result in it going off and hundreds or thousands or millions or billions of people dying.

it would also have been an agreed upon action by a full government, and keeping the victim, in the know.

Not the actions of a lone man condemning her to an eternity of non-existence.

What you're proposing still condemns her to a life of potential misery on a world she doesn't know with little in the way of friends and nothing in the way of family.

Like it or not, Graham's actions are more humane than yours would be. They certainly aren't right, but his actions are specifically stated by him to allow the girl to have the family she never had, to have some peace before she was put into stasis, which is more than anyone can say about your proposal.

And given how the Book forces its user into slumber, by the time she'd get frozen, her life would already be over anyway. There was no precedent of the Master ever waking up once the Book of Darkness went berserk, and by then, it was far too late.

My wanting Yuuno punished is not specifically for his actions in acquiring the shards, or even really losing them. It is for his actions on earth...

So basically... you want to have him punished... just for the hell of it? Wow. Real rational there.

 

[PCHeintz72]

AIDs, cancer, diabetes, and CLL don't risk the destruction of the entire planet and the loss of lives of everyone on them. It's not the same. It is not the study of a disease here--you are experimenting, essentially, on disarming the mother of all timebombs, and the wrong action will result in it going off and hundreds or thousands or millions or billions of people dying.

Eh... I do not think there is a successful bomb expert alive whom just randomly pokes the bomb to see what will set it off.

Scans, test, attempts to help, attempts to alleviate the pain, improve her quality of life...

Not... stick her with a fork and twist and hope for the best...

Like it or not, Graham's actions are more humane than yours would be.

You and me obviously have a differing view of what humane is.

So basically... you want to have him punished... just for the hell of it? Wow. Real rational there

Actually, I am quite rational about it. I was specific instating his actions on earth, not his actions before arriving. Consider...

1. I do not view the actual digging up and acquisition of the shards as the issue. Even if I question the TSAB itself for what they do with them and how they handle them, that is not specifically on him.

2. I do not view the destruction or forced crashing of his ship his fault, after all, not like he deliberately approached Precia and asked to be blown up. Even if I question the judgment that since he was transporting something so dangerous he did not call in the TSAB for escort duty. Since I do not know whether he did and was refused, or did not, I cannot hold that on him... Since the TSAB has botched handling of other Lost Logia, I'm wiling to blame them, not him.

3. I do however, blame him for involving Nanoha in the retrieval and giving her Raising/Raging Heart... a civilian 9yr old non-Midchildean citizen... You can say he did not want to all you want, but he did do so. That circumstances worked out so well for the TSAB can be considered good, and why they likely overlooked it, but it still occurred.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Eh... I do not think there is a successful bomb expert alive whom just randomly pokes the bomb to see what will set it off.

Scans, test, attempts to help, attempts to alleviate the pain, improve her quality of life...

Not... stick her with a fork and twist and hope for the best...

In the case of the Book, a scan or a test may very well set it off. As for alleviating pain? They can't. Magic-based healing only accelerates the regeneration a body can already do on its own, according to booklets, and we already have Vita begging Shamal to use her healing magic to help Hayate, but there was nothing Shamal could do on the matter. The Bureau certainly couldn't fix Hayate and Nanoha's ability to walk in less than a year, so there's limits as to what Bureau technology can accomplish.

You and me obviously have a differing view of what humane is.

Graham gave her a chance at a family and a normal life. Your proposal turns her into a lab rat. So yeah, he IS being more humane here, but like I said, it doesn't make it right.

Actually, I am quite rational about it. I was specific instating his actions on earth, not his actions before arriving. Consider...

1. I do not view the actual digging up and acquisition of the shards as the issue. Even if I question the TSAB itself for what they do with them and how they handle them, that is not specifically on him.

2. I do not view the destruction or forced crashing of his ship his fault, after all, not like he deliberately approached Precia and asked to be blown up. Even if I question the judgment that since he was transporting something so dangerous he did not call in the TSAB for escort duty. Since I do not know whether he did and was refused, or did not, I cannot hold that on him... Since the TSAB has botched handling of other Lost Logia, I'm wiling to blame them, not him.

3. I do however, blame him for involving Nanoha in the retrieval and giving her Raising/Raging Heart... a civilian 9yr old non-Midchildean citizen... You can say he did not want to all you want, but he did do so. That circumstances worked out so well for the TSAB can be considered good, and why they likely overlooked it, but it still occurred.

What choice did he have? He was injured and in no condition at the time to capture the remaining Seeds. Nanoha was far more compatible with the Device, and knew nothing of magic, therefore letting him teach her how to use it, and more importantly, teach her the responsibilities that come with it, and keeping her eyes on capturing the Seeds and preventing the disasters that could come from them.

And you want to punish him for that.

That? That is not rational.

 

[Hoki]

Also, Yuuno explicitly told Nanoha once he was fully healed that she did not need to involve herself in the task of gathering the jewel seeds, as he knew the potential dangers of continuing to do so. He certainly didn't want a civilian who had been living a peaceful life until then in his line of work and the world he lives in. Nanoha chose to stay and help Yuuno.

And with regards to the Book of Darkness, you seem to be forgetting that it is sentient, so if it knows its life will be threatened, it will take action. Again, simply sealing and transporting caused it to go berserk. How much more damage would it cause if people tried to experiment on it?

 

[PCHeintz72]

In the case of the Book, a scan or a test may very well set it off. As for alleviating pain? They can't. Magic-based healing only accelerates the regeneration a body can already do on its own, according to booklets, and we already have Vita begging Shamal to use her healing magic to help Hayate, but there was nothing Shamal could do on the matter. The Bureau certainly couldn't fix Hayate and Nanoha's ability to walk in less than a year, so there's limits as to what Bureau technology can accomplish.

The book of darkness originally was not supposed to do what it has been doing. Not to Hayate, nor what it did in the prior incident. It became what it was due to tampering and corruption of its encoding. Generally speaking, what can be coded can be uncoded. It is merely the finding of how to undo it.

They already have the earlier scans and all the remaining records of the earlier attempts on stuff that has been done... and what failed. They can use that as a starting off point...

I still maintain... neither you nor myself, know what they might be able to research and dig up given the time to do so, nor how things might go... I still state outright, that having all parties knowing going in what is occurring and looking for ways to correct, is far more morally correct and humane than a lone man in a premeditated act of manipulation deciding to put a 9 year old girl into an eternal sleep.

Whom knows, they might even have come to a similar less violent version of the events that did set it free and break the cycle...

EDIT: I removed the last couple paragraphs since they were not really directly related to the discussion at hand...

 

[Rising Dragon]

Even the sentient administration program of the Book of Darkness couldn't fix it, and you think the Bureau can? Part of the problem with the Book of Darkness is hardware-based, as evident in the Gears of Destiny game, and Lost Logia cannot be reproduced. Again, the ONLY reason Hayate was freed from it was because the Master woke up when it started to berserk. THE ONLY REASON. And even then it couldn't stop the Book fully. Even if you have all the other failures to look over, you can't really get anything done if you can't even get the Book sealed and moved to a proper study location. If just doing that will cause it to go berserk, then trying to scan and experiment with it most certainly will, whether it happens on Earth or on Mid-childa.

Simply put, your proposal for Hayate's situation is far more dangerous than Graham's and less humane. It risks far too many lives in comparison, and it being for the "moral high ground" isn't a viable justification for it.

 

[Hoki]

In the case of the Book, a scan or a test may very well set it off. As for alleviating pain? They can't. Magic-based healing only accelerates the regeneration a body can already do on its own, according to booklets, and we already have Vita begging Shamal to use her healing magic to help Hayate, but there was nothing Shamal could do on the matter. The Bureau certainly couldn't fix Hayate and Nanoha's ability to walk in less than a year, so there's limits as to what Bureau technology can accomplish.

The book of darkness originally was not supposed to do what it has been doing. Not to Hayate, nor what it did in the prior incident. It became what it was due to tampering and corruption of its encoding. Generally speaking, what can be coded can be uncoded. It is merely the finding of how to undo it.

They already have the earlier scans and all the remaining records of the earlier attempts on stuff that has been done... and what failed. They can use that as a starting off point...

I still maintain... neither you nor myself, know what they might be able to research and dig up given the time to do so, nor how things might go... I still state outright, that having all parties knowing going in what is occurring and looking for ways to correct, is far more morally correct and humane than a lone man in a premeditated act of manipulation deciding to put a 9 year old girl into an eternal sleep.

Whom knows, they might even have come to a similar less violent version of the events that did set it free and break the cycle...

True, there had been scans and data from the Book of Darkness, and the solution Yuuno proposed; to separate the master from the defense program, was implied to have come from his extensive research. However consider these...

*The infinity library, before Yuuno came along, was an unorganized mess. Aria even stated that to even gather data from the place, they had to form teams. Yuuno was only able to extract as much information as he did because he was well versed at gathering and processing information. Furthermore, Yuuno's proposed solution only worked because Hayate managed to break free from the eternal slumber that previous masters of the B.o.D had gone through, so even if Graham had Yuuno's idea beforehand, he would also know that none of the previous masters of the book ever woke up from the lotus-eater machine that they were in. So he would have to find an alternative solution.

*According to the records concerning the B.o.D, if the book does not gather linker cores after a specific period of time. It will slowly consume its current master, then reconstruct itself. So like one of the previous posts said, it was a ticking time bomb. If Graham told the other TSAB officials about this, how do you think they would respond? Do they let the book remain dormant until it necessitated the need to gather cores, or poke and prod at it to find out what makes it tick, knowing that it can blow up at any time during the tests? Graham had chosen the former because it would give them time to develop countermeasures. But still the fact remains that the book was practically indestructible, so how would he, and by extension the TSAB stop such a thing when all the information they have is 'regenerating WMD. No master has ever woken up once it takes over'? Supposing that they experimented on Hayate, and the B.o.D went berserk, then they WILL have to put her down via Arc-en-Ciel, leading us back to square one.

So experimenting on a really dangerous book and its master was really out of the question. We're not saying that Graham's initial solution is better, but he, at least, had the good will to let Hayate live with people she can call family, and provided her with everything she needed before the Wolkenritter came along. At the very least, he thinks that letting his chosen sacrifice live out her life in happiness lessens the gravity of the sin he tried to commit in his conscience.

It offends me greatly that Graham got off so light, not only in canon events, but that the fan fiction community as a whole seems to dismiss his actions and all the calamity he did... not only to the girl... to everyone else affected by his actions, including TSABs own personnel... I know WHY he did it, everyone seems to say that as well and it is easy to see considering we know his past in regards to it, but that does not remotely excuse his actions... a crime is a crime.

This is exactly what Regius would say. So I guess you would fit in well as a TSAB official.

There have been three seasons of MGLN, and in two we deal with direct evidence of just how corrupt they can be, and in one we have multiple questionable acts on their part... The least corrupt to me are the three non-natives...

So... the happy do-gooders and protectors of space and time as a whole is merely fanon to me. I view them more like Stargate, out more for their own self interests, with a government that has multiple conflicting organizations and agendas. Not evil, just not good.

Most of us don't really believe the TSAB is a morally perfect organization. After all, they did pull off some really shady stuff, like trying to turn Caro into a WMD just because she can't control her dragons, and the whole Unlimited desire thing that created Jail. Hell, even in canon, the branches of the TSAB don't get along with each other, evidenced by Regius' disdain for the Navy. You'd be surprised by the number of fanfics depicting the TSAB as a morally corrupt organization than "do-gooders and protectors of space and time."

 

[Rising Dragon]

IIRC, Hoki, the thing with Caro wasn't that they tried to use her as such, but that without any control over her dragons, that's all the good she was for them as far as a member of the Bureau goes. I also believe they'd be unwilling to let her into the public as such, in case one of her dragons does decide to go nuts. And since one of her dragons is as big as a high-rise...

 

[Hoki]

IIRC, Hoki, the thing with Caro wasn't that they tried to use her as such, but that without any control over her dragons, that's all the good she was for them as far as a member of the Bureau goes. I also believe they'd be unwilling to let her into the public as such, in case one of her dragons does decide to go nuts. And since one of her dragons is as big as a high-rise...

Still, they don't really offer her anything other than being something of a WMD by letting her dragons go berserk. And the fact that they were unwilling to let her out in the public is basically depriving her of some forms of freedom. Not very morally upstanding of an organization I'd say, even if their interests were for the safety of the many.

If weren't for Fate taking her in and letting her have a more normal life, then she would've ended up as a broken kid.

 

[Nanya]

She was not really a Midchildean citizen (she was a clone). Even if the argument that a clone has rights as a citizen there (we know they do due to StrikerS and the sisters), she would probably not be one as she was isolated from that government and not even raised in it. The only records they would have would be for Alicia, not Fate.

Her 'crimes' were not in Midchildean space,

It could be argued the TSAB has no legal authority on Earth thus her actions against Chrono or Yuuno would be self defense.

That doesn't fly, PC.

Even on Earth, if you're in another country and you assault a member of a military that "has no authority" in that country, you can still be arrested and/or put down for crimes.

Think of it like this, the U.N. gets some military units together and goes into an area of Africa to retrieve a weapon, let's say it's a giant storage of Nerve Gas or something and they're going to remove it.

While there, some locals decide that they don't like the U.N. and attack them.

This country is not part of the U.N., nor do they want any outsiders in the country.

However, if the Nerve Gas starts getting out of the container, the people of the country will be doomed, not to mention the people of the surrounding countries.

But, anyway, while removing the Nerve Gas container safely, the U.N. forces are attacked.

The forces then either arrest or kill everyone who attacked them.

That's exactly what it is with Chrono here, PC. Chrono's part of a military organization, thus, you know, certain rules get tossed.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

So basically... you want to have him punished... just for the hell of it?

Of course he does: PCHeintz is one of those guys who thinks the TSAB should be destroyed simply on account of not being from Earth. You could change all his statements to be referring to Nanoha and other Earth characters as 'whites' and all TSAB characters as 'blacks' and you'd find his arguments very, very familiar.

 

[PCHeintz72]

She was not really a Midchildean citizen (she was a clone). Even if the argument that a clone has rights as a citizen there (we know they do due to StrikerS and the sisters), she would probably not be one as she was isolated from that government and not even raised in it. The only records they would have would be for Alicia, not Fate.

Her 'crimes' were not in Midchildean space,

It could be argued the TSAB has no legal authority on Earth thus her actions against Chrono or Yuuno would be self defense.

That doesn't fly, PC.

Even on Earth, if you're in another country and you assault a member of a military that "has no authority" in that country, you can still be arrested and/or put down for crimes.

Think of it like this, the U.N. gets some military units together and goes into an area of Africa to retrieve a weapon, let's say it's a giant storage of Nerve Gas or something and they're going to remove it.

While there, some locals decide that they don't like the U.N. and attack them.

This country is not part of the U.N., nor do they want any outsiders in the country.

However, if the Nerve Gas starts getting out of the container, the people of the country will be doomed, not to mention the people of the surrounding countries.

But, anyway, while removing the Nerve Gas container safely, the U.N. forces are attacked.

The forces then either arrest or kill everyone who attacked them.

That's exactly what it is with Chrono here, PC. Chrono's part of a military organization, thus, you know, certain rules get tossed.

No... the situation is not comparable... I'm assuming in your scenario the UN moved in due to the *other* country being a member, as otherwise I cannot really see the UN moving in.

For example the Myramar situation the other year... UN forces were basically told off and were prevented from entering the country to give aid to flooded victims... we basically had to watch.

Fates fight was over a single seed that while powerful, was not on a scale to really affect TSAB claimed lands in any major way...

Precia, on the other hand, was not only in space, was attempting to use many seeds at once, which would have been catastrophic not only due to location, but size and range of effect.

Of course he does: PCHeintz is one of those guys who thinks the TSAB should be destroyed simply on account of not being from Earth. You could change all his statements to be referring to Nanoha and other Earth characters as 'whites' and all TSAB characters as 'blacks' and you'd find his arguments very, very familiar.

Ehhh... Bwahahaha... No...

Were that the case, I would not care for such shows as Dr. Who, or the Federation in Star Trek, or Crest/Banner of the Stars, or SG1 itself...

Dr.Who is mostly British. Federation in Star Trek is not only multi-national and multi-racial but multi-species. Crest/Banner of the Stars the good government is alien (ahb empire) but the bad guys are human empires. I've gone on record many times as stating SG1 is not the good guys, they are merely better than the bad guys and morals are geared toward self interest, not overall good.

To me, the TSAB is like SG1, excepting a few individuals, morally corrupt, multiple agencies all with differing goals stepping on each others toes with plots and power grabs, rife with betrayal and black projects. They may be better than the bad guys overall, but not by any means does that make them the good guys. I LIKE SG1 as a series, but that does not mean I like all their actions... Likewise... I LIKE MGLN as a series, but that does not mean I like all their actions...

The other view I have, for a anime comparison instead of a sci-fi one, is they are the opposite of Sailor Moons public image, Sailor Moon is supposedly morally superior, but for all intents their training sucks... MGLN has the training and capabilities to far outstretch Sailor Moon, but morally in comparison they are little more than a cesspool.

EDIT: Hey, that is not a bad idea... a crossover between Sailor moon and MGLN, where the Sailor Moon cast reforms the TSAB morals... I've seen the opposite work nicely enough, With Nanoha being sailor Moon and making the senshi competent... Great story, though my favorite bits was when they still thought Fate was an enemy...

 

[Nanya]

She was not really a Midchildean citizen (she was a clone). Even if the argument that a clone has rights as a citizen there (we know they do due to StrikerS and the sisters), she would probably not be one as she was isolated from that government and not even raised in it. The only records they would have would be for Alicia, not Fate.

Her 'crimes' were not in Midchildean space,

It could be argued the TSAB has no legal authority on Earth thus her actions against Chrono or Yuuno would be self defense.

That doesn't fly, PC.

Even on Earth, if you're in another country and you assault a member of a military that "has no authority" in that country, you can still be arrested and/or put down for crimes.

Think of it like this, the U.N. gets some military units together and goes into an area of Africa to retrieve a weapon, let's say it's a giant storage of Nerve Gas or something and they're going to remove it.

While there, some locals decide that they don't like the U.N. and attack them.

This country is not part of the U.N., nor do they want any outsiders in the country.

However, if the Nerve Gas starts getting out of the container, the people of the country will be doomed, not to mention the people of the surrounding countries.

But, anyway, while removing the Nerve Gas container safely, the U.N. forces are attacked.

The forces then either arrest or kill everyone who attacked them.

That's exactly what it is with Chrono here, PC. Chrono's part of a military organization, thus, you know, certain rules get tossed.

No... the situation is not comparable... I'm assuming in your scenario the UN moved in due to the *other* country being a member, as otherwise I cannot really see the UN moving in.

For example the Myramar situation the other year... UN forces were basically told off and were prevented from entering the country to give aid to flooded victims... we basically had to watch.

Fates fight was over a single seed that while powerful, was not on a scale to really affect TSAB claimed lands in any major way...

Precia, on the other hand, was not only in space, was attempting to use many seeds at once, which would have been catastrophic not only due to location, but size and range of effect.

Actually, PC, the situation *IS* comparable, because that's what the Bureau basically is, a peacekeeping force. Again, Orussa. Planet that's in a civil war, they told the Bureau to back off, the most the Bureau does there is rescue people.

Another example in RL, PC that I can use, is the actions that the United States took over in Iran in the 1950s. Know what the US did?

Overthrew the elected government of Iran and put the Shah into power.

I'm pretty sure that the CIA had NO legal authority over there, but did so because they got the all clear from Eisenhower.

Same deal with the Bureau operating on Earth.

And I'm glad you brought up Sailor Moon, PC... Makes it much easier to say this...

What Graham and the Bureau did was NO different than what Haruka and Michiru did in Sailor Moon.

Nuking a city of a couple million?

Save a planet of a few billion.

Let the girl live happily for a bit before sealing her away? Better than the planet being destroyed.

In Sailor Moon, Uranus and Neptune KNEW how bad the Silence was going to be if it got loose, so, letting people die? Not a big deal, if one person dies so that hundreds more could live, it's acceptable.

Even in shows like Justice League Unlimited, for example, there was an android called AMAZO who, after traveling the stars, had so much power that he ran straight through the Green Lantern Corps and destroyed Oa (so it seemed) on his way to Earth. When the Corps caught up, they told John Stewart that they were going to use all of the power of their rings to destroy AMAZO.

Jon: That much power could destroy half the planet.
Kyle: Better half a planet then no planet.

Then there's Fate/Stay Night, where Kiritsugu and later Archer would kill one person to save 10, kill 10 to save 100, kill 100 to save 1000.

Kiritsugu was shown shooting down a plane with someone he thought of as a mother (she was a succubus) and killing everyone inside because there were zombies inside. Sure, there was a chance to stop it otherwise, but a greater chance that they'd escape and more people would die.

The only reason that Archer (or EMIYA) got so depressed about what he did was because, after his death, he was ONLY used to kill people, never getting a chance to pick and choose, no, he had to kill EVERYBODY, which is why he wanted to kill Shirou, so that he would have a chance to wipe himself out of reality with a Paradox.

 

[ragnarok1337]

I've gone on record many times as stating SG1 is not the good guys, they are merely better than the bad guys and morals are geared toward self interest, not overall good.

To me, the TSAB is like SG1, excepting a few individuals, morally corrupt, multiple agencies all with differing goals stepping on each others toes with plots and power grabs, rife with betrayal and black projects. They may be better than the bad guys overall, but not by any means does that make them the good guys. I LIKE SG1 as a series, but that does not mean I like all their actions...

What? Are you willfully that blind? You're obviously confusing the Stargate Program with the NID.

 

[PCHeintz72]

@Nanya

It still puts them in a bad light... through examples of others doing it does not make it right, it makes those others wrong.

Also at least in the sailor moon reference I gave, not I was very careful in stating it was their public image...

It should also be noted you yourself are stating the lack of true authority in some of those situations and they were thus wrongly done.

What gives the TSAB the right to operate and even recruit on what they themselves class as a un-adminstered world? What gives them a right to dictate training regimes for potential mages? What gives them the right to stomp onto our soverenty and take material of any form from our planet...

Basically, from this type of perspective... it boils to a simple restatement of a old slogan called 'might makes right'...

They could adopt and use other methods... they could have contacted and developed relations with us, explained things, worked with our people and negotiate how the stuff should have been contained and handled, and by whom. Contacted and shown how to know potential in mages.

What? Are you willfully that blind? You're obviously confusing the Stargate Program with the NID.

No, from a governing and representing standpoint in the series the two are the same... Don't believe me? Consider...

The NID and the government has interfered in SG1 affairs on multiple occasions, and SG1 been forced on missions to correct relations problems created by other operatives...

Heck, at one point, Hammond was forced into specific decisions due to direct threats against his grandkids, though SG1 fixed that issue for him...

They've been given bad info by corrupt government and military people before. Look at ONiels former Black ops 'buddie' and all that SG1 went though because of that guy...

They've almost had more betrayals and black ops in their government than they've had from off world allies.

Given all that, the comparison between the SG1 series and the TSAB seems all too obvious to me.

 

[Nanya]

@Nanya

It still puts them in a bad light... through examples of others doing it does not make it right, it makes those others wrong.

Also at least in the sailor moon reference I gave, not I was very careful in stating it was their public image...

It should also be noted you yourself are stating the lack of true authority in some of those situations and they were thus wrongly done.

What gives the TSAB the right to operate and even recruit on what they themselves class as a un-adminstered world? What gives them a right to dictate training regimes for potential mages? What gives them the right to stomp onto our soverenty and take material of any form from our planet...

Basically, from this type of perspective... it boils to a simple restatement of a old slogan called 'might makes right'...

They could adopt and use other methods... they could have contacted and developed relations with us, explained things, worked with our people and negotiate how the stuff should have been contained and handled, and by whom. Contacted and shown how to know potential in mages.

To be perfectly fair, PC, recruiting Nanoha was mostly her choice in the matter. And, let's be honest here, would YOU want to have someone who has power enough to destroy stuff with a flick of her wrist to not have training on how to use it properly?

Hayate, however, accepted punishment to keep the rest of her family, who have centuries of crimes to answer for, to a minimum. (To compare, look up the name Richard O'Dwyer and see what happened to him when he got in trouble with U.S. Copyright Law when he's a U.K. citizen who's never been on U.S. soil nor broke U.K. law.)

As for training regimes, um... They kind of know HOW to train mages, PC.

I mean, look at the NFL or other sports, you don't have someone who's a boxing trainer teach someone in hockey how to skate and shoot a puck, right?

There aren't people on Earth who really know how to use magic, so there'd be very few who could teach potential mages how to use it properly.

And, PC, do you REALLY, HONESTLY think that, the INSTANT that it's known on Earth, a planet of over 9000 years of war and fighting, that if some people had magical powers that can destroy cities with ease that military forces around the world (the U.S. comes to mind quickly) wouldn't see them as weapons and NOT as people?

Think about it, PC. If it was known that Nanoha had magical power, what's to stop other countries or even Japan from wanting to turn her into a lab rat for the sake of finding out how to make more magic users?

Fact is, PC, joining the Bureau was Nanoha's choice completely. Hayate wasn't given a choice but to do community service. Fate had to do some stuff, but was free otherwise.

After Hayate's community service was done, she really had no reason to stay, but she did because she wanted to make sure that no more problems like what she went through would happen again.

Look, no one denies that there's corruption in the Bureau, even the Sound Stages address it with Genya and Chrono talking about it and saying that, even if they fixed the current corruption, in 20 years, there'd be new corruption. The best thing they could do is get rid of the worst of it.

And, really, PC, the Bureau kind of has a right to come to Earth to get the Jewel Seeds, as they are Bureau property, not Earth property.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Nanoha volunteered, and as such there's really nothing anyone on Earth could do except for her parents; she's free to volunteer for training. Though I'd like to point out that while Yuuno is a Mid-childa native he did not recruit Nanoha as a TSAB operative, as he was a civilian archaeologist. It'd be nice if you stop demonizing every little action the Bureau does and trying associate other characters' actions as part of their master plan.

 

[Nanya]

In fact, in A's, Fate specifically stated that she was a civilian helper with the Bureau.

And Lindy only had Nanoha and Yuuno help her in S1 as Nanoha was a native and felt that she was the best one to handle the current situation.

 

[PCHeintz72]

I was not talking about Nanoha really in those last few posts but the TSAB's rights... Though the argument that Nanoha needed training as she would be a danger is a bit of a dead end, seeing as how it is unlikely that ever would have manifested w/o her having received Raising Heart and Yuuno instructing her.

Either the TSAB have open relations with us on the up and up... or they are here without the consent of the planet and they are conducting covert illegal operations in our space. That simple.

It could be argued they lost the right to the Jewel seeds at they were not in fact TSAB property... they were either the property of wherever Yuuno got them from, or the property of Yuuno and he lost them when his ship blew. It has already been stated he is *not* a TSAB agent.

It could be argued they are either salvage or the property of the planet.

As for Hayate... My own view is since everything with Hayate was due to Grahams plans having set them up... Hayate and her Knights should have gotten off scott free, since Graham had full knowledge of pretty much everything they were doing and did nothing. If a active General in their organization was not only giving them carte blanc, but actively helping them... morally why should they be tried by the Bureau? However, tactically it makes perfect sense to do what they did, by doing so they recoup on Grahams actions without ever having admitted to approving them and they gain multiple high class mages in the equivalent of indentured servitude.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Man, fuck this planet. They've had hundreds of years to fix its shit and they've only been doing worse and worse. I'd move to Mid-childa in a heartbeat. You're pretty dead set on painting the Bureau as incompetent monsters as a whole and it's just not doing you any favors.

Hayate getting off scot-free, yeah, I can sorta agree with that. The Wolkenritter? No way in hell they should've gotten off scot-free. They're directly responsible for the deaths of trillions of people and numerous worlds. That doesn't just go away. And as such they didn't.

 

[bissek]

Hayate would have gotten off scot-free, but she chose to accept partial responsibility for the Wolkenritter's actions, even though they were doing exactly what she told them NOT to do.