Akamatsuverse Contract Labor

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
In this case, the author is on record as stating that was his goal
While I wouldn't be so pedantic as to say that the author never once used the word "improve" in the passages you quoted, I don't think that he's outright saying that he wants to improve the character. He's simply noting the changes he's making (albeit mixed in with some criticism of the canon version of the character).

Ordo said:
If you reinvent something to the point that it's become unrecognizable, then you have made a mistake.
The problem with statements like this is that how recognizable something is is purely a matter of opinion. Certainly, calling it a mistake is entirely subjective, since it depends on the author's intent; hence, only the author can decide if they've achieved the goals they've set out to accomplish.

Ordo said:
Here are some recent examples The characters in the Captain America film versue the original comic books. Batman TAS changed to Batman beyond (Bruce has changed a lot and is still recognizable). The Lord of the Rings books versue the films. These examples made changes but at no point did they lose what made their characters unique.
And again, these are all your opinions, not facts. I've talked to people who would have disagreed on pretty much all of these points.

I'm not saying that the critiques made about this story aren't without merit; I'm pointing out that all criticism is personal to the one offering it. Saying why you don't think something worked is fine, but it's what you think. What's wrong with admitting that your viewpoint is only yours, rather than dressing it up as a universal truth?
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
Alzrius said:
I'm not saying that the critiques made about this story aren't without merit; I'm pointing out that all criticism is personal to the one offering it. Saying why you don't think something worked is fine, but it's what you think. What's wrong with admitting that your viewpoint is only yours, rather than dressing it up as a universal truth?
The author is not creating his own characters, he's playing with someone elses, people with a story and history we know. There is a certain amount of room for interpretation, but a writer does not have a carte blanche to alter a characters personality however they wish and use 'It's my point of view' as justification.

We, the writers of fanfiction, walk a tightrope. These are not our characters, and it's on us to be aware that our own biases can can distort how characters are portrayed.

I have to be very careful when I write Naru, as I am not fond of her character. However, I have tried to show (with limited success) that she does care fo Keitaro, she's just not at a point where she can admit that to herself or anyone else. Motoko has a similar problem, as during the beginning of the series I did not like her, and at times tend to show her stuck in that same mindset. This is highly unfair to her, as by the tales end she has become a much better person.

We, as writers, can take a story in any direction we wish. However, we could end up losing our audience if we fail to maintain a believable characterization in our tales.

Another pitfall is writing to a niche audience. If I were to make a fic about Keitaro bashing Naru and falling in love with Shinobu a certain segment of the fandom would tell me I'm writing an excellent story even if it's utter garbage. I've seen people write stories in which the only thing the protagonist has in common with the original source is their name (Example Naruto Chaos Mage, Harry Potter Paritally Kissed Hero etc) and get praised for it because it's what that niche audience wants. I say beware this, they are not helping you grow as a writer.
 

FinalMax

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
Alzrius said:
I'm not saying that the critiques made about this story aren't without merit; I'm pointing out that all criticism is personal to the one offering it. Saying why you don't think something worked is fine, but it's what you think. What's wrong with admitting that your viewpoint is only yours, rather than dressing it up as a universal truth?
The author is not creating his own characters, he's playing with someone elses, people with a story and history we know. There is a certain amount of room for interpretation, but a writer does not have a carte blanche to alter a characters personality however they wish and use 'It's my point of view' as justification.

We, the writers of fanfiction, walk a tightrope. These are not our characters, and it's on us to be aware that our own biases can can distort how characters are portrayed.

I have to be very careful when I write Naru, as I am not fond of her character. However, I have tried to show (with limited success) that she does care fo Keitaro, she's just not at a point where she can admit that to herself or anyone else. Motoko has a similar problem, as during the beginning of the series I did not like her, and at times tend to show her stuck in that same mindset. This is highly unfair to her, as by the tales end she has become a much better person.

We, as writers, can take a story in any direction we wish. However, we could end up losing our audience if we fail to maintain a believable characterization in our tales.

Another pitfall is writing to a niche audience. If I were to make a fic about Keitaro bashing Naru and falling in love with Shinobu a certain segment of the fandom would tell me I'm writing an excellent story even if it's utter garbage. I've seen people write stories in which the only thing the protagonist has in common with the original source is their name (Example Naruto Chaos Mage, Harry Potter Paritally Kissed Hero etc) and get praised for it because it's what that niche audience wants. I say beware this, they are not helping you grow as a writer.
That's really been my point. Even here, you will more often than not see someone heap praise on something that probably shouldn't. Actual criticism is surprisingly rare here, and what you normally get is just proofreading. Given the number of non-English speakers on this forum, that's not a bad thing. It gives them help on a technical level, but that doesn't necessarily help them become better storytellers.

If a story that's barely been looked at here gets shipped over to ff.net, I do peruse the reviews given there in some hope that the feedback there might have the rare individual who doesn't want to just be a sycophant. Then you start looking at trends that are recently occurring in that section. For example, there has been recent trends to "improve" on Keitaro in the Love Hina section. Most of those have been some kind of power-up that you'd expect in the Ranma or Naruto sections, and even more unusual is the number of people who are just flat out slamming on characters in reviews.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
Power ups can be fun, but I often don't take them as seriously as I would other fics. That said, even when I write something like 'Kryptonian Keitaro' I at least try to determine how said characters would react to the change. I admit, I'm not sure I've nailed it, which is one of the reason I barely write snippets for it anymore. That tale keeps striking me as more wish fulfillment than a fun, honest look at the situation.

In fact I'm reconsidering having Keitaro be the student of more pulp heroes like Doc Savage, Adam Strange and/or Tom Strong. This would allow me to have some fun, but not have Keitaro hob nobbing with Batman and Super-girl. Though I do enjoy writing Krypto, but I've always been fond of dogs.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
The author is not creating his own characters, he's playing with someone elses, people with a story and history we know. There is a certain amount of room for interpretation, but a writer does not have a carte blanche to alter a characters personality however they wish and use 'It's my point of view' as justification.

We, the writers of fanfiction, walk a tightrope. These are not our characters, and it's on us to be aware that our own biases can can distort how characters are portrayed.
Respectfully, I disagree. I don't see anything restricting a fanfiction author from having carte blanche to do as they wish with the characters - there's certainly no penalty for it; so how do they not have total freedom to change what they wish?

You seem to be saying that an author "should not" make too many changes; that's your opinion, but it doesn't mean that the author "must not" or "can not" make whatever alterations he or she sees fit. Likewise, I don't believe that any justification is necessary, on any front - writing is writing, and need not justify its existence.

People's own biases are reflected in everything they do; but there's no reason why a person can't rewrite something to match their preferences, bias, desires, etc.

Ordo said:
I have to be very careful when I write Naru, as I am not fond of her character. However, I have tried to show (with limited success) that she does care fo Keitaro, she's just not at a point where she can admit that to herself or anyone else. Motoko has a similar problem, as during the beginning of the series I did not like her, and at times tend to show her stuck in that same mindset.
There's nothing wrong with that, and it certainly seems in keeping with their portrayal of how they appear in the manga/anime.

But the virtue of fanfiction is not judged by how faithful it is to the source material. The only yardstick I use for judging a story is "was it a good story?" And even then, I keep in mind that that's just my yardstick, and not that of anyone else. (To be fair, I'll often then go further and ask why a story was or was not good, but that's still personal to me.)

Your yardstick seems to be based heavily on how little the fanfiction deviates from the source material. That's fine, but it's a personal judgment, not a failing of the story itself.

Ordo said:
This is highly unfair to her, as by the tales end she has become a much better person.
I don't really have much to say on this, save that I'm leery of talk about how something is "unfair" to a character. Characters in a story are just characters; their sole purpose is that which they have in the context of the narrative. Talking about whether or not a narrative alteration is "fair" to them is, to me, anthropomorphizing too much.

As Magrite observed:



Ordo said:
We, as writers, can take a story in any direction we wish. However, we could end up losing our audience if we fail to maintain a believable characterization in our tales.
Fair enough, but if we're using the popularity of the story to pass judgment on it, then as FinalMax noted, plenty of people seem to like this one.

Ordo said:
Another pitfall is writing to a niche audience. If I were to make a fic about Keitaro bashing Naru and falling in love with Shinobu a certain segment of the fandom would tell me I'm writing an excellent story even if it's utter garbage. I've seen people write stories in which the only thing the protagonist has in common with the original source is their name (Example Naruto Chaos Mage, Harry Potter Paritally Kissed Hero etc) and get praised for it because it's what that niche audience wants. I say beware this, they are not helping you grow as a writer.
The concept of a niche audience is itself relative; certainly, anime fanfiction is a niche audience compared to mainstream fiction found in bookstores.

The reason a segment of the people would say they liked your story means that, to them, it isn't garbage - judgments are specific to the people who pass them.

Likewise, what helps you "grow as a writer" is much too vague to have any sort of definition, because people grow as writers in different ways, whether it's in terms of originality, sentence construction, plot development, character development, speed of output, etc.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
Alzrius said:
Ordo said:
The author is not creating his own characters, he's playing with someone elses, people with a story and history we know. There is a certain amount of room for interpretation, but a writer does not have a carte blanche to alter a characters personality however they wish and use 'It's my point of view' as justification.

We, the writers of fanfiction, walk a tightrope. These are not our characters, and it's on us to be aware that our own biases can can distort how characters are portrayed.
Respectfully, I disagree. I don't see anything restricting a fanfiction author from having carte blanche to do as they wish with the characters - there's certainly no penalty for it; so how do they not have total freedom to change what they wish?
This seems to be your main point so it's the one I'll adress, as almost everything elese you post is related to this point.

If you're just going to do anything to characters you didn't create, without regarde for their previous characterization or history, then why not just write your own story?

This isn't a slam, I'm being deadly serious. There are fanfiction ideas I have abandonded because it changes so much, it alters the characters so radically as to be unrecognizable. I understand that sometimes people are just having fun, I get that, but if you are being serious then it might be best to take all those ideas and craft a tale that is your own.

I don't mind an author exploring how things could've turned out differently, but if their writing is not believable, then a problem has arisen. I see so many stories where the author took a setting or a character and made something new, and I wonder why did they so drastically change another persons work? Why did they not take that same energy and create their own tale?

There's nothing stopping a writer from completely changing Love Hina. I could set the entire thing on a Starbase during Star Trek: TNG with Keitaro as the new Commnader. However what would be the point? I'm I just throwing two things I like together for giggles? I could turn Keitaro into an Assassins as seen in the Assassins Creed games, but why would I do this, what does that accomplish, and how does it help me tell a good story in the LH Universe?

People post here to get opinions and this is mine, and it would appear I am not alone in my concerns. Perhaps you don't agree, which is fine, but I will continue to point out the dangers of drastic rewrites of characters.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
This seems to be your main point so it's the one I'll adress, as almost everything elese you post is related to this point.

If you're just going to do anything to characters you didn't create, without regarde for their previous characterization or history, then why not just write your own story?
In order to properly answer this, we need to throw away some of the presumptions inherent in your question.

First, just because a fanfiction author can disregard the previous characterization of an existing character, doesn't mean that they do. And even if they do, it doesn't mean that they've rewritten the character utterly. You say that you cannot recognize Keitaro in this fic - fair enough, but you do recognize Naru, Motoko, et al, even if, in your opinion, they've been flanderized.

Second, the idea that totally changing the characters is essentially the same as changing the story ignores other aspects of the fiction that are also important, such as setting. Suppose that, as you noted:

Ordo said:
I could set the entire thing on a Starbase during Star Trek: TNG with Keitaro as the new Commnader. However what would be the point?
Notice that there's nothing in your example that changes the actual characters themselves; rather, you've changed the setting and nothing else. If you wrote a fic wherein all of the cast of Love Hina was set on a starbase, with Keitaro as the incoming commander - as opposed to being set in an girls' dorm with Keitaro as the incoming manager - and kept the characters' personalities exactly the same...is that the equivalent of writing an entirely new story?

In other words, mandating that any major change causes the fanfiction to be so utterly divorced from the qualities of the original that it's essentially an original work with borrowed names is, in my mind at least, far too broad of a statement.

In the case of the fic in question, the author hasn't changed absolutely everything about all of the characters that I can see. As such, while you may say that you can't recognize a single character, and find that some of the other characters have been altered, perhaps the more pertinent question to ask yourself is if you can recognize the story as being Love Hina at all.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
There's a point where a character dosen't have enough of their characterization to be the recognizable. It doesn't require a rewrite of everything

You say that you cannot recognize Keitaro in this fic - fair enough, but you do recognize Naru, Motoko, et al, even if, in your opinion, they've been flanderized.
I can recognize elements of their characters, some of which is overly emphasized and other parts which are starting to fade without sufficient justification. That plus the alterations to Keitaro do not help this fic.

Second, the idea that totally changing the characters is essentially the same as changing the story ignores other aspects of the fiction that are also important, such as setting
The setting isn't always as necassary as the characters. I'd argue that Love Hina is more about the people than the world it takes place in, as such altering those people has a more profound impact on the tale then putting them in a new world. That said...

Notice that there's nothing in your example that changes the actual characters themselves; rather, you've changed the setting and nothing else.
You are incorrect. I just made Keitaro a Starfleet officer that has attained the rank of Commander. The Keitaro who arrives at Hina inn, will not be the same man that would arrive to take command of a Starbase. Commander Urashima has gone through starfleet training, he's served in a number of different commands for several years and he accomplished enough to be raised to the rank of Commander. He and the normal Urashima are nothing alike.

In the case of the fic in question, the author hasn't changed absolutely everything about all of the characters that I can see. As such, while you may say that you can't recognize a single character, and find that some of the other characters have been altered, perhaps the more pertinent question to ask yourself is if you can recognize the story as being Love Hina at all.
You don't have to alter everything to change a story, you just have to alter enough. The main character, Keitaro has too few similarities too the original. Haruka has some noticable alteration and we're still seeing the differences in the girls.

Final max said it best
Oh, the main character isn't the only problem here for characterization. That one is just the most blatant and offensive. Zerohour mentioned the Shinobu change, and that's another inconsistency. She acts close to canon at the start, and just now decides to act impish. There's the flanderization of Kitsune, Naru, and Motoko going on here which also grates on the nerves. You're focusing too much on the negative qualities there, which leaves one-dimensional characters who will probably be evicted from the story if things progress in their logical fashion.
 

GreydonCreed

Well-Known Member
The semi-final Chapter 9 of Contract Labor has been posted at FFN (link <a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7180762/9/' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>here</a>). Enjoy, all! :lol:
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
There's a point where a character dosen't have enough of their characterization to be the recognizable. It doesn't require a rewrite of everything
And where is that point? I suspect that you'll find that line is different for everyone.

Ordo said:
I can recognize elements of their characters, some of which is overly emphasized and other parts which are starting to fade without sufficient justification. That plus the alterations to Keitaro do not help this fic.
I don't believe there's any degree of justification necessary. Fanfiction by its very nature deviates from the canon; hence, the characters may be different. What does and does not help the fic itself is up to each reader to decide.

Ordo said:
The setting isn't always as necassary as the characters. I'd argue that Love Hina is more about the people than the world it takes place in, as such altering those people has a more profound impact on the tale then putting them in a new world.
That's a matter of opinion...which is really what this entire discussion is about.

Ordo said:
You are incorrect.
Actually, it's not a matter of correct or incorrect; it's a matter of agree or disagree.

Ordo said:
I just made Keitaro a Starfleet officer that has attained the rank of Commander. The Keitaro who arrives at Hina inn, will not be the same man that would arrive to take command of a Starbase. Commander Urashima has gone through starfleet training, he's served in a number of different commands for several years and he accomplished enough to be raised to the rank of Commander. He and the normal Urashima are nothing alike.
Again, that's an assumption on your part based on how you'd imagine such a character. Someone else may disagree entirely, reasoning that the same determination that made Keitaro get into Todai and become a successful archeologist could let him reach the rank of commander, all the while maintaining the same personality.

Ordo said:
You don't have to alter everything to change a story, you just have to alter enough. The main character, Keitaro has too few similarities too the original. Haruka has some noticable alteration and we're still seeing the differences in the girls.
Again, how much is "enough"? How much is "too few"? You won't find any answer to these questions that isn't personal to the one giving the answer.

FinalMax agreed with your critique, but also failed to realize that that's just an opinion, rather than a failure of the story itself.
 

Shadowseraph

Well-Known Member
I'll just toss my two cents in here. Your story is pretty good, mechanically and the characterization, while it does seem a little... off at points isn't bad. My real problem with it is that its taking the setting and characters too seriously, Akamatsu's verse is a silly nonsensical place, and I'm seeing all of signs that all the various comedic props are going too end up be played straight, like this Naru the Berserker thing.

I suppose its just preference but this doesn't really feel like a Love Hina story. Too much serious drama not enough laughs.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
I'm just going to hit a few points, as they are the most egregious

I don't believe there's any degree of justification necessary. Fanfiction by its very nature deviates from the canon; hence, the characters may be different. What does and does not help the fic itself is up to each reader to decide.
If I write Keitaro as an assassin, a killer for higher, then I had better make sure that this change makes sense. I can't use the excuse 'its fanfiction, deal with it.' because that shows a total lack of respect for the work I'm writing fanfiction about. When DC comics had Professor Thompson allow Stephani Brown to die, the fans were rightly up in arms. When Cassandra Cain turned from a nice young woman who could barely read into a cold hearted Dragon lady that knew Navajo, fans complained. They decided that these changes in the charactierzations of well known characters were not justified by what occured. The same is true in fanfiction. If you write an alteration, you'd best make darn sure that it's justified.

Again, that's an assumption on your part based on how you'd imagine such a character. Someone else may disagree entirely, reasoning that the same determination that made Keitaro get into Todai and become a successful archeologist could let him reach the rank of commander, all the while maintaining the same personality.
So you're telling me that a Keitaro whose still trying to get into Todai, is barely able to deal with the girls in the Hina Inn, and is often fairly goofy will be same man who finished Starfleet academy, served with distinction for several years, and eventually became Commander of a Starbase?

You can't just use 'it's an opinion' to cover everything as you've done here. Somethings just don't make sense no matter how many times you attempt to wave 'the opinion' flag.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
Some mistakes I noticed in the copy of 9b (I've not had a chance to look at the FFN posted version yet, been gone all day)

Inspecting the previously
'previously' s/b 'previous'

Motoko did not looked
'looked' s/b 'look'

Granny Hina could be forgiving of someone if she though they
'though' s/b 'thought'

Now, as for 9b... I thought it mostly fine, though I was let down slightly in that Suu's room was only mentioned as a flashback and we did not really hear what she might have been answering to any of his questions.

I'm of the opinion this is ok. I did half expect Naru to blow up on his pointing out of her problem, but between letting her stew a bit before going to her, and Haruka being there, I think it is ok that she did not.


Look forward to more.
 

GreydonCreed

Well-Known Member
PCHeintz, thanks for pointing out the misspellings and your FB. The semi-final posting has been corrected. ^_^

Shadowseraph, thanks for your FB as well. I have to admit that I am playing most of the story straight as you said, but then most of the humor in canon Love Hina was Keitaro being put into painful or embarrassing situations through no fault of his own and being punched/punted out of the house for it. :huh.: I am trying to put some humorous lines in the story, but I guess that really doesn't make up for the Keitaro pratfalls and fanservice involving the female tenants that resulted. :huh:
 

Shadowseraph

Well-Known Member
Eh... its not the events so much as the tone really, it just feels too serious, its the same problem I end up having with Ranma fiction, too much angst and drama, not enough wacky slapstick and humor. The manga really didn't have too many serious moments and Keitaro getting smacked around never felt malicious on the girls part. Too me anyway, its just a preference, when I read fiction about silly romance comedy manga I'm generally looking for something with the same tone, some people want to read serious versions. The fic is fairly good from an objective standpoint though.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
Shadowseraph said:
Eh... its not the events so much as the tone really, it just feels too serious, its the same problem I end up having with Ranma fiction, too much angst and drama, not enough wacky slapstick and humor. The manga really didn't have too many serious moments and Keitaro getting smacked around never felt malicious on the girls part.á Too me anyway, its just a preference, when I read fiction about silly romance comedy manga I'm generally looking for something with the same tone, some people want to read serious versions. The fic is fairly good from an objective standpoint though.
I guess it is all interpretation...

Personally I always felt Granny should have been hanged for her personal deliberate setup to back-stab both all the tenants whom respected her and seemed to treat or regard her as family more than mere friend, and Keitaro whom is her blood relative... and the 'slapstick funny' stuff good only up to a point, which I felt well exceeded in Love Hina canon (both anime *and* manga continuities mind you).

I do not limit my own reading to the same genre as canon in what I read... Love Hina is billed mostly as comic romantic love... I'm fine with reading humor, drama, angst, tragedy, etc... using characters from such a series as baseline.

My only qualifier is I need to like what I read or that it contain some aspect or plot that draws me to continue reading it. Some examples:

1. A Naru/Keitaro match-up is a mild turnoff for me personally, but not a deal breaker, but a plot that has the characters acting even worse to him than canon and still having him end with Naru is a deal breaker. Ex. 'At the Crack of Dawn' by Boombubble

2. A Shinobu match is a major turnoff to me as I can't personally morally condone it, but would read and even like it if given a good explanation as to why it might still be viable. Ex. 'Parallel Lives' by Nodoka Miyazawa

3. Angst for sake of angst in a humor series is no good, but combined with a good plot point it can be very interesting. Ex. 'The Mind's Landscape' by Kildred (sadly not continued).

4. A changed personality of a single character, one having had a epiphany or event in a changed past, can have drastic changes to a plot and completely change the tone of a story These can be fun due to the unexpected plot changes. Ex. character of Kistune in 'Love Hina A Friend in Need' by Tezza1502, or 'Picking Up The Pieces' by Crippled Wings, or 'Or get off the pot' by Mercaba, or Keitaro and Kitsune in 'The Quiet Man' by Soth11

5. A simple change in timing can also drastically change things and the overall tone even if the personalities remain canon at story start... Motoko and Keitaro arriving at same time for example: 'Early Return' by Niklas Hawk Jonsson

6. Some aspects of the series IMHO *cannot* be explored without some critical over the top event occurring. For example, getting Keitaro of the mindset to actually leave Hinata so author can explore what happens to him after leaving almost requires some over the top event forcing his hand, as he certainly does not leave despite everything that has been done to him in series canon. Normally this requires a beating or a character assassination or betrayal the likes of which does not occur in canon. Ex. 'Hina Digger' by kyugan, or 'Leaving Hinata' by Tezza1502, or 'Moving Forward' by VoidHawk.

I believe it is really something along example 4 above that is being attempted here. A character with a changed past, altering his perceptions and thus his actions, with everything changing around him to reflect that. Of course it changes the tone... but it is not bad for doing so... just trying to be different. The writing quality has been acceptable, explanations given for most of the changes, and events occurring as believably as possible without too many additional sudden complications. I approve so far.

EDIT: BTW... I just downloaded the full FFN.NET version of the story... is there any way you can consider changing your scene breaks... they do not copy correctly with Cut and Paste as I read in TXT format... if not, I'll deal.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
Good part. Glad to see someone talking to Naru about her lack of control - that doesn't happen in a lot of fics, IIRC.
 

GreydonCreed

Well-Known Member
PCHeintz - the document downloader for FFN strips out normal line breaks like '-----' and '*****', as well as multiple paragraph breaks and rams everything together. At least with me, I have to manually insert all those long line paragraph breaks when I first download the chapters to FFN, otherwise there would be no way to tell the end of a story section. :blink:

I feel your pain about downloading text chapters to read offline. When I first got into reading fanfic and downloading them to my Palm handhelds, the line breaks would turn to hash, and the end of each line had a line break, so the text would not fill the screen. Nowadays I just read stuff on FFN Mobile on my smartphone, it's less hassle that way. B)
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
GreydonCreed said:
PCHeintz - the document downloader for FFN strips out normal line breaks like '-----' and '*****', as well as multiple paragraph breaks and rams everything together. At least with me, I have to manually insert all those long line paragraph breaks when I first download the chapters to FFN, otherwise there would be no way to tell the end of a story section. :blink:

I feel your pain about downloading text chapters to read offline. When I first got into reading fanfic and downloading them to my Palm handhelds, the line breaks would turn to hash, and the end of each line had a line break, so the text would not fill the screen. Nowadays I just read stuff on FFN Mobile on my smartphone, it's less hassle that way. B)
I do not use a downloader, I use copy and paste.

I've looked at the downloaders a couple times over the years... not overly pleased with their results... I emailed the best of the ones currently being updated about a month ago after a discussion on fukufics regarding them asking if they were going to implement a couple features that would make it actually useful to my purposes, but they mever responded back.

Here is a summary of my needs and of the ones I tried and my personal experience on them (part of a PM based discussion I had last month):

My needs...

- Local application, not web based

- Work with fanfiction.net ideally also a mediaminer.org

- Download the story to TXT

- Multiple chapter support

- Allows for batch feeding of the links so could walk away and let it automatically do 5, 50, or 500+ stories.

- Time/date stamp the files as of the time of last update on the site, though I can live without this feature as I have another way to do a similar thing after the fact.

My conclusions...

They still suck *for the above needs*

Found one Python script called Lemon, but it is specifically for putting stuff into Kindel format.

For a different Python script called FanficDownloader that should have worked from a batch file as I have Python 2.7 and 3.x, but there is a known bug that causes it to stall 100% of the time that the author has not fixed in the public source. it looks like it would dump to a single file though.

For the above, found a web site that uses a customized version of that script ( <a href='http://fanfictionloader.appspot.com/' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://fanfictionloader.appspot.com/</a> ) , but it no longer can be used as batch, and requires Google registration and log in and individual downloads.

The best one found was FanfictionDownloader.net, it needed Calibre despite it noting it would not need it if only downloading to HTML files. However, it does not support either batch or multiple file support.

A different one *also* called FanfictionDownloader (aka automatic fan fiction downloader). Created multiple files as a option, but its UI sucked, and tended to crash, and could not be run batch mode.

Glanced at your mentioning of Flag, but it does not list TXT as a option.

BTW, pretty sure it was FanfictionDownloader.net that was the one I checked several years ago and hacked its profiles to fudge a TXT option.
I came across another after that discussion, but it was not updated to handle FF.NET's newest change of the crappy social networking links, so you get empty files. It was Gater something.

Here is a copy of the email sent to FanFictionDownloader.NET, which was never responded to:

Hello, I've been looking at various download programs for Fanfiction.net, of them, yours looks about he best and most stable, but was wondering about two points.

1. I like that you seem to be adding the ability to track multiple stories. But I was wondering if that, when complete, will have the ability to also batch fill that list, say from a text file containing a list of URLs... it would be nice to dump in a list and just have it know all the stories you want to grab in one go.

2. I personally prefer reading the chapters as separate files, and have seen at least one off line reader able to grab stories that way, would that be a possible feature that could be added, perhaps as a simple configuration preference option.

Thanks in advance for any reply.
So... copy and paste it is.
 

GreydonCreed

Well-Known Member
PCHeintz -

What I meant by downloader is the program FFN uses to transfer files from an authors computer to FFN. The downloader has a browse button that allows you to pull a file from your desktop to FFN, but it strips what it considers extraneous formating from the file... Like typed line breaks and spacing. I guess I could cut and paste the chapters instead, but this seem to be working so far... At least better than downloading to TFF, which strips out all formating.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
GreydonCreed said:
PCHeintz -

What I meant by downloader is the program FFN uses to transfer files from an authors computer to FFN. The downloader has a browse button that allows you to pull a file from your desktop to FFN, but it strips what it considers extraneous formating from the file... Like typed line breaks and spacing. I guess I could cut and paste the chapters instead, but this seem to be working so far... At least better than downloading to TFF, which strips out all formating.
Ah... my mistake... I thought you meant the generic downloaders, not the one built into FF.NET for its authors to use.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
If I write Keitaro as an assassin, a killer for higher, then I had better make sure that this change makes sense. I can't use the excuse 'its fanfiction, deal with it.'
It's worth noting that saying "it's fanfiction, deal with it." has been said by nobody during the course of this discussion, save for you just now.

What I'm saying is that what "makes sense" is different for everybody.

Ordo said:
So you're telling me that a Keitaro whose still trying to get into Todai, is barely able to deal with the girls in the Hina Inn, and is often fairly goofy will be same man who finished Starfleet academy, served with distinction for several years, and eventually became Commander of a Starbase?
Sure, just look at Lt. Barclay. :p

But more seriously, I don't think that it's impossible, though you seem to disagree. Hence my point - people can have differing opinions about what does and does not make sense within the context of a story. The very fact that we disagree proves the point.

Ordo said:
Somethings just don't make sense no matter how many times you attempt to wave 'the opinion' flag.
In that case, I ask you to please show the quantitative metric used to objectively determine when something does or does not make sense.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
If I write Keitaro as an assassin, a killer for higher, then I had better make sure that this change makes sense. I can't use the excuse 'its fanfiction, deal with it.'
It's worth noting that saying "it's fanfiction, deal with it." has been said by nobody during the course of this discussion, save for you just now.
However you have claimed that anything is allowable simply because of varying opinions. That doesn't track, I've seen authors rightly savaged for taking a series, using a characters name and then writing them in such a ways as to be unrecognizable to the audience. If anything were allowable, if an author could really just distort a character to their hearts whim, then why would people bother giving any criticism beyond spelling and grammer?

Sure, just look at Lt. Barclay.á :p
Barclay only became a Commander in an alternate unvierse where he was a teacher at Starfleet Academy years after his adventures on the Enterprise. In fact you just proved my point, a Keitaro that's gone through Starfleet and attained the rank of Commander is going to go through so much character growth that he will not be the awkward, underconfidant person he was at the beginning of Love Hina.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
Ordo said:
However you have claimed that anything is allowable simply because of varying opinions.
Actually, I'm saying that questions of what's "allowable" are moot, simply because the question is ultimately one of personal opinion.

Ordo said:
That doesn't track, I've seen authors rightly savaged for taking a series, using a characters name and then writing them in such a ways as to be unrecognizable to the audience.
The question of whether or not is was "rightly" is an opinion, as is whether or not they were recognizable to the audience. It's not unimportant that you didn't answer my previous query about how one would objectively judge how much of a change of character is too much.

Ordo said:
Barclay only became a Commander in an alternate unvierse where he was a teacher at Starfleet Academy years after his adventures on the Enterprise. In fact you just proved my point, a Keitaro that's gone through Starfleet and attained the rank of Commander is going to go through so much character growth that he will not be the awkward, underconfidant person he was at the beginning of Love Hina.
You do realize that the smiley was to indicate that my answer was tongue-in-cheek, and not meant to be taken seriously, right? That's why I say "seriously" in the next paragraph when I've moved on.

How much character growth a fictional character has when going through a set of fictional circumstances is entirely a matter of opinion, not fact.
 

GreydonCreed

Well-Known Member
Preliminary first part of Ch 10. Enjoy. ^_^

Ch 10

Author notes: IÆm going to list the various titles and honorifics that are going to be used in this chapter at the beginning so I donÆt have to use explain them in the middle of conversations or leave them to the end of the chapter and have the readers going WTH while they are reading. *g* BTW, the general rule is that the younger members of the family will address the older or more senior members by honorific title (ex. Ba-chan), while the older members will address the younger member by name and honorific suffix (ex. Keitaro-kun).

Oto-san û father (formal)

Oka-san û mother (formal)

Onii-san û older brother (formal)

To-san û dad (informal)

Ka-san û mom (informal)

Nii-san/Nii-chan û big brother/big bro (informal)

Ba-san/Ba-chan û grandma/granny (informal)


-----

Keitaro was sitting at one of the back tables in the teahouse, tapping his pencil against the tabletop as he looked over the notes he had before him. The notes from the clipboard that he had carried throughout the full house inspection now ran an even dozen pages, not including the two pages of notes he had taken from the tenant room inspections.

Like he had previously told Naru, he had pretty much decided to leave the dorm open at the Hinata-sou. The problem now were the rules that were going to be put in place to keep the chaos to a minimum. Keitaro had not been kidding about rules regarding certain tenants; almost every tenant had a new rule that was a result of their actions. Keitaro had listed the new rules on a new sheet of paper, and he knew that it would go over with the tenants like a lead balloon. About the only person whoÆs hands were clean in this entire mess was Shinobu, and one of the rules still affected her.

ôThinking deep thoughts, Kei-kun?ö Keitaro looked up at the sound of his auntÆs voice to see her standing beside his table, wearing her teahouse apron and a semi-amused smile on her face.

ôMore like working the kinks out of the plans IÆve come up with.ö Keitaro gestured to the chair opposite him and Haruka sat down. ôI have the new rules I want to implement, IÆm just thinking of how to present them without getting the tenants riled up. I can just force it through and they wonÆt be able to say anything about it, but I want them to work with me and not go off again.ö Keitaro pushed a single sheet of paper over to Haruka, who started reading it.

After a minute, Haruka started chuckling to herself. ôYeah, I can see Motoko going off about this, and Kitsune wonÆt be happy either. You sure you want to go through with this, Kei-kun?ö

ôHave to, it isnÆt fair what they are doing to Shinobu, and I have personal safety in mind for the rest of it. Kitsune canÆt just go through life scamming people, and with the costs of operating the Sou, I canÆt just let the rent arrears go. Than reminds me, how many people do you have working here?ö

Haruka looked thoughtful for a moment. ôThree part-timers. Yoko in the evenings, Karin and Jun in the afternoons. I canÆt really afford to pay very much, so they donÆt make a living doing this. Yoko is retired and the other two are going to school and work here to make some extra money. WhyÆre you asking?ö

ôKitsune needs to do extra work to start paying off those arrears, and if she doesnÆt have a good paying job now, I kinda doubt that she is going to bust her butt to find one to start paying. If I give her a choice of paying cash up front for the arrears or working for either me or you to make the cash, she would very probably rather work for us. It would be a lot harder for her to get much past you, and who knows, she might just like working here.ö Keitaro smiled thinly.

ôAnd why canÆt she work for you doing cleanup at the Sou?ö Haruka asked, planting an elbow on the table and resting her face on her hand.

ôBecause either I will be too busy doing things to keep an eye on her, or itÆs going to be Kanako keeping an eye on her. You can imagine how well that will work out.ö Keitaro tilted his head to the side.

Haruka gave a shudder. ôOh yeah, not good at all. Look, I can only afford part-timers here, so it would be four hours a day, maxing out at twenty hours a week. I only pay a thousand yen an hour (US$10.00). And this is if I pay cash under the table.ö

Keitaro did the math in his head. ôThat works out to six weeks work if she gives all her pay toward the arrears, twelve weeks if she gives half. That sounds doable. YouÆre going to use her to bus tables and do general cleanup, right?ö

ôYeah, IÆll let her get used to how I do things around here. If she keeps at it, and I see that sheÆs a good worker, I can train her in brewing and in working the register, but thatÆs if IÆm going to really hire her on.ö

ôSounds good. Which brings us to the next worry, Aoyama. How am I going to get her to go for her rule?ö Keitaro spread his hands in front of him.

ôWellà you can always pull the samurai guest rule on her.ö It took a few moments for Keitaro to understand what Haruka was referring to, but after a bit he got it.

ôOk, that might work, but it only makes the problem slightly smaller, it doesnÆt get rid of it.ö

ôTell her it canÆt be in plain view, and she canÆt carry the real deal. That plus the rule you came up with for Naru should keep the problem manageable,ö Haruka replied.

Keitaro considered that for a few moments before nodding in agreement. ôAs long as I can see her coming, I can handle her. If she manages to sneak up on me without me noticing, it wonÆt matter what she has.ö

ôWhich brings up the most fun of the new rules. How are you going to tell Su that she canÆt play with her turtles in the house anymore?ö Haruka grinned at Keitaro, who sighed and copied her earlier pose and braced his face with his arm on the table.

-----

ôOnly one more thing left to do, Kei-kun.ö

Keitaro and Haruka had spent the last hour going over the plans for the dorm and the tenants residing within. Only part of the conversation had been about the new rules; repairs and remodeling had also been discussed as well. This was in between Haruka having to leave to go help out at the counter when it got busy.

Keitaro looked at his wristwatch; it was now close to 2:00 PM. The people he needed to call would very probably be at home, and if a certain person was not there, then they had her mobile number as well.

ôLend me your mobile, please?ö Keitaro picked up the phone that slid across the table at him. Looking at the screen, he could see his familyÆs home phone number was already on display.

ôThatÆs another thing I have to do, get a new mobile phone.ö Keitaro mumbled to himself. Keitaro had never really had much use for mobiles before he left the country, even though he had a plain vanilla flip phone for emergencies until he graduated high school. Now that he was back home, almost everyone and their dog seemed to be either talking on phones, playing games on phones, listening to music on phones or reading gods knows what on their phones. The fact that almost all of those involved had earphones plugged in did not lessen the impression that the electronics involved were connected directly to their brains. ôiPod people indeed,ö Keitaro muttered as the distinctive *ring-ring* of the Japanese phone system began to sound in the earpiece.

ôMoshi-moshi,ö a older male voice spoke into the phone at the other end of the call, giving the traditional Japanese phone greeting.

ôHello, oto-san, itÆs Keitaro, how are you?ö

ôKei-kun! IÆm doing well, we havenÆt heard from you since you returned to Japan. Everything is going well in Osaka, I trust?ö

ôThings could be going better, to-san, and IÆm not in Osaka anymore. Granny Hina asked me to come to the Hinata-sou, and thatÆs where IÆm at now.ö

ôI seeà I take it Hina-ba-san told you about her decision regarding the family.ö

ôYou could say that. I got here a couple of days ago to find out that the Sou is now a girlsÆ dorm, that she had left for a tour of the worldÆs hot springs the day before, and that the tenants had not been told who their new dorm manager was. Oh, and I found out about becoming the heir and manager by a letter she left after the girls chased me all over the house thinking I was a peeper.ö

ôHeh heh hehà ouch. You werenÆt hurt, were you Kei-kun?ö

ôNo, but it was touch and go for a while. I think IÆm getting things in order here, but IÆm going to need some help to do so. Is Kana-chan there?ö

ôSheÆs in her room, I can call her if you like. What do you mean, need her help?ö

ôIÆm still going to study for the entrance exam for Todai, plus I need a female to help run this place, to-san. I was hoping she could come and become the assistant manager here. It will not be that much work if she and I split up the work, so it should not interfere with her school work. SheÆs still doing well in school, I trust?ö

ôIf you can call getting a 4.2 GPA in Honors classes and cutting a wide swath through the high school karate tournaments doing well, yes. Ever since you left, she started to dedicate herself to her studies, even more than you did, Kei-kun.ö

Keitaro winced at that remark. The final two years of high school he had done nothing but study school and prep materials, stopping only to sleep, eat, and at the insistence of his parents and grandmother, practice his martial arts skills.

The martial arts were what kept him from cracking up like so many other overly dedicated college prep students did, but his dedication for studies bled over to the physical. Keitaro went from a mid ryu rank to sho-dan (first rank black belt) in his formal martial arts training just before he graduated high school. Not to say that he wore a black belt before he left school. In his family technique training, on the occasions that members wore gis the beginners wore white belts, and members who had defended others from deadly attack wore black belts. In KeitaroÆs memory only Great-Uncle Hiro and Granny Hina wore the red belt embroidered with the Urashima crest. He had received a red belt from Granny shortly before he had left Japan over a year ago, but he had never worn it, finally understanding what the symbolism of the belt meant.

ôHow is ka-san doing? Is she there?ö Keitaro decided to change the subject after the turn his thoughts had taken.

ôSheÆs out shopping, she wonÆt be happy that she missed your call. Kei-kun, thereÆs something I need to ask you. Are you sure that inviting Kanako-chan to the Hinata-sou is a good idea? She is not as bad as when you left, but that English phrase æabsence makes the heart grow fonderÆ definitely applies here.ö

ôThat might be part of the problem, to-san. I left before I was able to deal with KanakoÆs feelings to me. Now that IÆm back, I can try and convince her that we are not meant to be together like that.ö

ôSo long as she does not wind up going yandere (1) on you, son. IÆll go and call her over right now.ö

ôGee, thanks to-san.ö Keitaro muttered to himself as he heard his father put the phone handset down . Twenty seconds passed before he could hear thundering footsteps through the phone and in a moment of insight yanked the mobile phone away from his ear before the deafening shout of æNii-chan!!!Æ blasted out of the speaker. Carefully he put the phone back to his ear to hear someone babbling at about 500 words a minutes. After a few moments he heard her take a breath and was finally able to get a word in edgewise. ôKana-chan, I didnÆt understand a word of what you were saying. Please slow down.ö

ôNii-chan, youÆre finally back in Tokyo! ItÆs good to hear your voice again! When did you get here, and how long before you get home?ö

ôItÆs good to hear you too, Kana-chan. I got to Tokyo a couple of days ago, and IÆm not going home yet. IÆm at the Hinata-sou, and wanted to ask you a favor.ö

ôAnything, nii-chan!ö Keitaro could hear at least a couple of different meanings to those two words, but it was not something he could do anything about over the phone.

ôI need to talk to you in person here at the Sou in order to explain it right, itÆs not something I can do over the phone. How soon can you get here?ö Keitaro asked.

ôIn an hour if I use my motorcycle. Thirty to forty-five minutes if I push it.ö

ôNo need to push it, Kana-chan. I donÆt want you get hurt when there is no need.ö Keitaro was wondering how it was that Kanako had a motorcycle; she was barely of the legal age to have a driverÆs license. ôOne more thing, pack for an overnight stay, if everything works out, we can go back to the house and get more things if you agree to my idea.ö

ôYatta! IÆll start packing right now! You are at the house right?ö

ôIÆm at HarukaÆs teahouse, meet me here. The three of us have to be involved in this talk.ö

ôOK, nii-chan! IÆll see you in an hour!ö There was a click as Kanako hung up the phone on her end.

Keitaro looked up at Haruka, who had been listening from across the table. She had a unlit cigarette in her mouth and was toying with her lighter. He could see that she wanted to say something, but was keeping quiet. ôGo ahead, say it.ö

ôThis is going to be really really good or really really bad, Kei-kun.ö Haruka grinned crookedly at him around her cigarette.

ôYeah yeah.ö Keitaro stood up and stretched. ôGo ahead and light up, IÆm going outside for a walk. IÆll be back in a few minutes.ö He walked toward the side door and therefore did not see Haruka look at the smoke she had taken out of her mouth for a moment before lighting it up.

-----

1 - Yandere - a person that is very gentle and loving to someone at first, then winds up obsessive and destructive, sometimes in violence. The violence can be directed to both the loved one or anyone perceived to be interfering in their relationship. Known in the US as Fatal Attraction syndrome.

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